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codc10
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Delta to cut JFK-NRT, NRT-BKK/KIX; MSP-NRT decision 'pending'

Wed Aug 10, 2016 4:46 am

Major changes to Delta's APAC network announced internally. JFK-NRT gone; as is NRT-BKK/KIX. BKK station will close. MSP-NRT cut likely once the DOT award for HND goes final, but the company is noncommittal on that. LAX-HND to 777.

Mods please delete if dupe.
 
ANA787
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Re: Delta to cut JFK-NRT, NRT-BKK/KIX; MSP-NRT decision 'pending'

Wed Aug 10, 2016 4:55 am

Surprised PDX-NRT didn't get cut as well.
 
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jetblastdubai
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Re: Delta to cut JFK-NRT, NRT-BKK/KIX; MSP-NRT decision 'pending'

Wed Aug 10, 2016 5:00 am

That leaves UA as the only US carrier in NYC-TYO market. UA must be partying.

I thought DL had the government contract for BKK which was a reason UA left BKK. Is there a penalty to closing the station if they have a contract or does the contract expire before the station closes?
 
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usxguy
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Re: Delta to cut JFK-NRT, NRT-BKK/KIX; MSP-NRT decision 'pending'

Wed Aug 10, 2016 5:07 am

Although I get yield & load factor don't go hand in hand, I thought BKK was one of DL's most insanely high load factor flights...
xx
 
codc10
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Re: Delta to cut JFK-NRT, NRT-BKK/KIX; MSP-NRT decision 'pending'

Wed Aug 10, 2016 5:09 am

ANA787 wrote:
Surprised PDX-NRT didn't get cut as well.


DL stated that it is committed to NRT-SEA/PDX/DTW/ATL service, for now. Reading between the lines, MSP-NRT is as good as gone once the DOT order goes final.

NRT-SIN/MNL/HKG/PVG/TPE interport service is safe for now, along with Hawaii and Micronesia.

jetblastdubai wrote:
That leaves UA as the only US carrier in NYC-TYO market. UA must be partying.


AA is technically in the market as well by way of the JL joint venture, but UA/NH are the share leaders. DL cited the growth of the OW and *A JVs as a reason for these cuts.
 
jbs2886
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Re: Delta to cut JFK-NRT, NRT-BKK/KIX; MSP-NRT decision 'pending'

Wed Aug 10, 2016 5:18 am

No more Asia service from JFK?

Also, will KIX only be served from HNL? Or will they add that from SEA (again?)?
 
MSPNWA
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Re: Delta to cut JFK-NRT, NRT-BKK/KIX; MSP-NRT decision 'pending'

Wed Aug 10, 2016 5:21 am

Didn't see JFK-NRT coming yet. No SkyTeam on NYC-TYO is pretty amazing. A couple big blows the NRT hub too. And big losses will come soon for MSP-originating passengers. Connections to Asia will not be as easy.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Delta to cut JFK-NRT, NRT-BKK/KIX; MSP-NRT decision 'pending'

Wed Aug 10, 2016 6:15 am

If this is indeed accurate, it'll be interesting to see how (or even if) they try to publicly spin it... if they mention it at all, that is.

MSPNWA wrote:
A couple big blows the NRT hub too.

That's to be expected. They've made it more than clear that they don't intend for there to *BE* much of an NRT hub anymore.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
panam330
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Re: Delta to cut JFK-NRT, NRT-BKK/KIX; MSP-NRT decision 'pending'

Wed Aug 10, 2016 6:47 am

LAX772LR wrote:
If this is indeed accurate, it'll be interesting to see how (or even if) they try to publicly spin it... if they mention it at all, that is.

MSPNWA wrote:
A couple big blows the NRT hub too.

That's to be expected. They've made it more than clear that they don't intend for there to *BE* much of an NRT hub anymore.


No doubt ushered along to help SEA continue developing. UA slowly pulled down the majority of its beyond-NRT flying years back as SFO developed. It's time for DL to finish doing the same.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Delta to cut JFK-NRT, NRT-BKK/KIX; MSP-NRT decision 'pending'

Wed Aug 10, 2016 7:09 am

panam330 wrote:
No doubt ushered along to help SEA continue developing.

From what I understand, it's the opposite:
SEA buildup was ushered along, because the NRT hub wasn't a competitive/sustainable proposal for a US carrier in the current and foreseeable environment... especially one without a major Japanese j/v partner.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
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keesje
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Re: Delta to cut JFK-NRT, NRT-BKK/KIX; MSP-NRT decision 'pending'

Wed Aug 10, 2016 7:28 am

MSP-NRT out, that's a lot of RedTail history.

I think it used to be twice daily 15 yrs ago.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
oldannyboy
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Re: Delta to cut JFK-NRT, NRT-BKK/KIX; MSP-NRT decision 'pending'

Wed Aug 10, 2016 7:56 am

keesje wrote:
MSP-NRT out, that's a lot of RedTail history.

I think it used to be twice daily 15 yrs ago.


Yes, really quite surprising... I think it was two 744s a day....
 
Grummancat
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Re: Delta to cut JFK-NRT, NRT-BKK/KIX; MSP-NRT decision 'pending'

Wed Aug 10, 2016 8:07 am

LAX772LR wrote:
They've made it more than clear that they don't intend for there to *BE* much of an NRT hub anymore.


Too bad all those rioting farmers can't get their land back. :roll:
 
ktachiya
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Re: Delta to cut JFK-NRT, NRT-BKK/KIX; MSP-NRT decision 'pending'

Wed Aug 10, 2016 8:08 am

keesje wrote:
MSP-NRT out, that's a lot of RedTail history.

I think it used to be twice daily 15 yrs ago.


Yes, I took this flight about 15 years ago as you mention. Remember two daily B744 to NRT and a B742B on the route to KIX.
To think all that capacity is gone is quite shocking.
Flown on: DC-10-30, B747-200B, B747-300, B747-300SR, B747-400, B747-400D, B767-300, B777-200, B777-200ER, B777-300
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Delta to cut JFK-NRT, NRT-BKK/KIX; MSP-NRT decision 'pending'

Wed Aug 10, 2016 8:11 am

Grummancat wrote:
Too bad all those rioting farmers can't get their land back.

Which is a statement that doesn't make much sense, considering that NRT is busier now than it's ever been.... just not with US carriers.


ktachiya wrote:
Yes, I took this flight about 15 years ago as you mention. Remember two daily B744 to NRT and a B742B on the route to KIX.
To think all that capacity is gone is quite shocking.

I'd say the fact that all that capacity was ever THERE, is far more shocking than the fact that it's now gone. ;)
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
quiet1
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Re: Delta to cut JFK-NRT, NRT-BKK/KIX; MSP-NRT decision 'pending'

Wed Aug 10, 2016 8:45 am

When are the last NRT-BKK and JFK-NRT flights?
 
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scbriml
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Re: Delta to cut JFK-NRT, NRT-BKK/KIX; MSP-NRT decision 'pending'

Wed Aug 10, 2016 9:04 am

LAX772LR wrote:
They've made it more than clear that they don't intend for there to *BE* much of an NRT hub anymore.


So no more of this?
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delta747tlv
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Re: Delta to cut JFK-NRT, NRT-BKK/KIX; MSP-NRT decision 'pending'

Wed Aug 10, 2016 10:16 am

quiet1 wrote:
When are the last NRT-BKK and JFK-NRT flights?


JFK-NRT OCT 3
NRT-BKK OCT 30
 
commavia
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Re: Delta to cut JFK-NRT, NRT-BKK/KIX; MSP-NRT decision 'pending'

Wed Aug 10, 2016 11:00 am

codc10 wrote:
Major changes to Delta's APAC network announced internally. JFK-NRT gone; as is NRT-BKK/KIX. BKK station will close. MSP-NRT cut likely once the DOT award for HND goes final, but the company is noncommittal on that. LAX-HND to 777.

Mods please delete if dupe.


Wow. In order of surprise, from least to most:

MSP is not surprising at all, and indeed this was pretty much the obvious outcome once Delta got MSP-HND, as there was obviously no need for that much capacity MSP-TYO.

KIX isn't that shocking either given that it was entirely reliant on connections over NRT and people continuing on to GUM - seemed like a slot sitter.

LAX-HND going to a 777 seems logical given how saturated the overall LAX-TYO market continues to be, and given Delta's generally smaller presence in it (like, increasingly, U.S.-TYO overall) relative to competitors.

BKK is a bit surprising in that while the market is competitive, it isn't small, and I thought Delta would go down to a 767 instead of cutting completely.

JFK really surprises me - I did not think Delta would exit that market, and JFK-Asia, completely. Again, I would have expected a downgauge (to 777) instead of a discontinuation, as the NRT flight seems like a pretty important and compelling one for Delta's corporate presence in NYC, not to mention it's just a huge O&D market in its own right.

ANA787 wrote:
Surprised PDX-NRT didn't get cut as well.


Me, too - but give it time. Personally, I think it's only a matter of time as the connectivity beyond NRT continues to decline, and also perhaps the feed at PDX declines if/when the Alaska partnership ends. I continue to believe that PDX-NRT seems like a logical ANA or JAL 787 market in the years to come - arguably JAL more plausibly given the Alaska codeshare.

codc10 wrote:
NRT-SIN/MNL/HKG/PVG/TPE interport service is safe for now, along with Hawaii and Micronesia.


Emphasis on the "for now," I suspect - at least with respect to some of those. Personally, I doubt NRT-PVG will last much longer - especially if Delta loses LAX-PEK to AA. Additionally, it seems hard to imagine that the beach markets (HNL/GUM/SPN/ROR) aren't going to see further capacity reduction as Japan's overall presence/capacity in Japan continues to decline.

LAX772LR wrote:
SEA buildup was ushered along, because the NRT hub wasn't a competitive/sustainable proposal for a US carrier in the current and foreseeable environment... especially one without a major Japanese j/v partner.


Precisely.

SEA is the alternative (replacement) for NRT - and quite a good one at that. Let's keep some perspective here - Delta's presence in NRT and Japan continues to decline, but Delta today is offering vastly more 1-stop connectivity between more U.S. cities and more Asian cities than Northwest ever did at the height of the NRT hub or Delta previously did immediately after the merger. The combination of SEA and DTW is an excellent and one - powerful and competitive.

All that said, though - I must admit that I didn't expect Delta's presence in Japan to decline in quite this way, or to decline quite this quickly.
 
Sightseer
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Re: Delta to cut JFK-NRT, NRT-BKK/KIX; MSP-NRT decision 'pending'

Wed Aug 10, 2016 11:53 am

Really surprised to see JFK-NRT gone.

DL needs a JV with KE yesterday.
 
mattnrsa
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Re: Delta to cut JFK-NRT, NRT-BKK/KIX; MSP-NRT decision 'pending'

Wed Aug 10, 2016 12:04 pm

commavia wrote:
I thought Delta would go down to a 767 instead of cutting it completely


I think they already downsized it to a 767, but it looks like that was not enough to improve the performance of the route.
 
C010T3
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Re: Delta to cut JFK-NRT, NRT-BKK/KIX; MSP-NRT decision 'pending'

Wed Aug 10, 2016 12:14 pm

Oh, Delta, it's time to make amends with Korean.
 
jumbojet
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Re: Delta to cut JFK-NRT, NRT-BKK/KIX; MSP-NRT decision 'pending'

Wed Aug 10, 2016 12:20 pm

commavia wrote:
codc10 wrote:
Major changes to Delta's APAC network announced internally. JFK-NRT gone; as is NRT-BKK/KIX. BKK station will close. MSP-NRT cut likely once the DOT award for HND goes final, but the company is noncommittal on that. LAX-HND to 777.

Mods please delete if dupe.


BKK is a bit surprising in that while the market is competitive, it isn't small, and I thought Delta would go down to a 767 instead of cutting completely.

JFK really surprises me - I did not think Delta would exit that market, and JFK-Asia, completely. Again, I would have expected a downgauge (to 777) instead of a discontinuation, as the NRT flight seems like.


JFK-NRT has been back to a T7 for well over a year now.

As much as I am a Delta 'fanboy', living in the NY area, I really don't care to make a connection when flying to Tokyo. So, basically that means I have to choose another airline? How many others are going to book a connection or simply choose a different airline to go non stop? Also, pretty lame to think that living in NYC, and flying Delta, I will now have to double connect if I want to go to such places like Singapore. To me, Delta is completely throwing in the towel when it comes to the Pacific. I don't think many people are going to be interested in flying China Eastern and connecting through Shanghai to get to SIN on a one stop departing from NY or BKK through any other Delta hub. Basically, Delta is betting its TPAC future on China Eastern and Shanghai.

Delta needs new leadership to completely rethink the JFK hub. NYC is such a large market, has to be one of the largest in the world, and yet soon you can only fly to Europe non stop on Delta metal, truly pathetic. I actually cant wait for Jet Blue to start non stop JFK - Europe flights now. Will Delta leave Europe at that point in time?
Last edited by jumbojet on Wed Aug 10, 2016 12:34 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Delta to cut JFK-NRT, NRT-BKK/KIX; MSP-NRT decision 'pending'

Wed Aug 10, 2016 12:26 pm

Dropping NYC-TYO is surprising but DL knows its costs, its average fares, and the demands of corporate clients.

KE would give them 1-stop service to lots of Asia, surely. Success isn't always properly measured by dots on the map (although tons of a.net 'next destination' threads miss this). Would they make more money with a KE JV than they would serving a smaller set of markets thru DTW & SEA? I don't know - but I suspect that question has received many hours of analysis.
 
codc10
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Re: Delta to cut JFK-NRT, NRT-BKK/KIX; MSP-NRT decision 'pending'

Wed Aug 10, 2016 12:30 pm

jumbojet wrote:
JFK-NRT has been back to a T7 for well over a year now.


I believe these cuts help DL completely absorb the impending retirement of the 747 fleet, too.
 
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CARST
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Re: Delta to cut JFK-NRT, NRT-BKK/KIX; MSP-NRT decision 'pending'

Wed Aug 10, 2016 12:41 pm

Wow, this comes as a surprise for me. Despite them having announced cuts, I never expected Delta to cut back that much on their routes to and from Narita. I thought they would stop all intra-Asia flying, but not that they would cut routes between the US to Japan.

I have spent time on the Narita visitor terrace on multiple occasions, sometimes all day long and was always amazed at the operating Delta had going on there, with airplanes coming and going all day. And this without any SkyTeam airline in Japan. Perhaps they should have tried to come up with a major codeshare-deal with one of the LCCs in Japan like Peach. I don't know. But it seemed like Delta could sustain this operation there just based on their name, history and O&D traffic, without major feed. Sad to see them scale back so much, will make the airport a little bit more boring.

Any word on the competitors from OneWorld and Star stepping up their service to Tokyo?
 
jumbojet
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Re: Delta to cut JFK-NRT, NRT-BKK/KIX; MSP-NRT decision 'pending'

Wed Aug 10, 2016 12:41 pm

codc10 wrote:
jumbojet wrote:
JFK-NRT has been back to a T7 for well over a year now.


I believe these cuts help DL completely absorb the impending retirement of the 747 fleet, too.


I know I just posted this in a few threads up but I cant believe that as much as Delta invests in the NYC markets, with the exception of Canada, South and Central America, they will only fly non-stop on their own metal to Europe. Pretty lame if you ask me. Living in NYC and flying Delta, its hard to believe I will now have to double connect to fly to places such as Singapore if I want to fly Delta metal. Not everyone is going to want to fly Chine Eastern. Speaking of which, that's a pretty big gamble for DL to take, China Eastern to the south pacific through PVG.
 
metsfan1
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Re: Delta to cut JFK-NRT, NRT-BKK/KIX; MSP-NRT decision 'pending'

Wed Aug 10, 2016 12:47 pm

Interesting on the NYC-TYO flight. Surprised, however is it really that surprising seeing that AA dropped its JFK-TYO flights a few years ago while United pulled those down as well (now back following merger with CO out of Newark with a legacy CO flight). NYC-TYO just may not be that profitable for the local carriers here. I am surprised that DL doesn't fly to other places in Asia out of the NYC market given their intense focus and investment in the NYC market.

On the operational side, doesn't the 777 that does JFK-NRT also serve as the 777 for the JFK-TLV flight. I had thought the plane does NRT-JFK-TLV-JFK-NRT. If they are cancelling NRT, where will the 777 for the TLV flight come from? Or does this mean the TLV flight will get a 332 or new HGW 333? The route can definitely be done on each and DL has a ton of 330 series flights out of JFK so a lot of operational flexibility there.
 
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Re: Delta to cut JFK-NRT, NRT-BKK/KIX; MSP-NRT decision 'pending'

Wed Aug 10, 2016 12:57 pm

keesje wrote:
MSP-NRT out, that's a lot of RedTail history.

I think it used to be twice daily 15 yrs ago.


In fact, as recently as 2009, it was two 744s on Saturdays.
Good goes around!
 
jasoncrh
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Re: Delta to cut JFK-NRT, NRT-BKK/KIX; MSP-NRT decision 'pending'

Wed Aug 10, 2016 1:06 pm

Yep, and back then there were not as many nonstops form the US straight to beyond points in Asia (not as much China/ HKG/ TPE / etc nonstop)., Everytbody had to go through NRT. Now they fly nonstop and bypass NRT. Simple as that.

floridaflyboy wrote:
keesje wrote:
MSP-NRT out, that's a lot of RedTail history.

I think it used to be twice daily 15 yrs ago.


In fact, as recently as 2009, it was two 744s on Saturdays.
 
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jfklganyc
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Re: Delta to cut JFK-NRT, NRT-BKK/KIX; MSP-NRT decision 'pending'

Wed Aug 10, 2016 1:11 pm

jumbojet wrote:
codc10 wrote:
jumbojet wrote:
JFK-NRT has been back to a T7 for well over a year now.


I believe these cuts help DL completely absorb the impending retirement of the 747 fleet, too.


I know I just posted this in a few threads up but I cant believe that as much as Delta invests in the NYC markets, with the exception of Canada, South and Central America, they will only fly non-stop on their own metal to Europe. Pretty lame if you ask me. Living in NYC and flying Delta, its hard to believe I will now have to double connect to fly to places such as Singapore if I want to fly Delta metal. Not everyone is going to want to fly Chine Eastern. Speaking of which, that's a pretty big gamble for DL to take, China Eastern to the south pacific through PVG.


You just listed everywhere. Plus the Africa flights. Don't get me wrong, I find it disgraceful for Deltas NYC hub to end and Asia link (without even a codeshare in place) but other than Asia, Delta is pretty well rounded from NYC.

But this is a surprise move.

What's left NYC-TYO now?

NH 2 daily JFK
JL 2 daily JFK
UA 1 daily EWR


Pretty slim pickings for 2 of the largest and most important cities in the world
 
airbazar
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Re: Delta to cut JFK-NRT, NRT-BKK/KIX; MSP-NRT decision 'pending'

Wed Aug 10, 2016 1:13 pm

a380787 wrote:
And amazing the airline claiming to be so called "winning New York" is entirely disconnected nonstop on NYC-Far East on either their own metal or any form of JV.

They code-share with KE on JFK-ICN, twice daily and ICN gives them far better coverage for Asia than NRT. They already have a vast code-share agreement with KE out of ICN.
I know it sucks for DL frequent fliers who need to fly the NYC-TYO route but that number must not be very large if they are dropping the route. It must be hard to compete with OW and *A on that route.
 
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DolphinAir747
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Re: Delta to cut JFK-NRT, NRT-BKK/KIX; MSP-NRT decision 'pending'

Wed Aug 10, 2016 1:16 pm

Wow I never expected this many cuts. Honestly, any of DL's remaining NRT routes are fair game for a cut at this point. Why DL can't cooperate better with KE is beyond me- betting on MU seems insane. Go read One Mile at a Time's scathing trip reports to understand that they're not exactly comparable to KE, or UA and AA's respective Japanese JV partners who like KE are very well-respected brands.

With shrinking NYC-TYO capacity perhaps NH can keep its second NRT-JFK in addition to HND-JFK, serving JFK thrice rather than twice daily?
 
dmstorm22
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Re: Delta to cut JFK-NRT, NRT-BKK/KIX; MSP-NRT decision 'pending'

Wed Aug 10, 2016 1:20 pm

jfklganyc wrote:
What's left NYC-TYO now?

NH 2 daily JFK
JL 2 daily JFK
UA 1 daily EWR


Pretty slim pickings for 2 of the largest and most important cities in the world


I guess the market just isn't as big as it seems - as this is a low figure to me as well.

Then again, we now have planes that can overfly TYO from NYC to most of the major hubs in Asia (apart from SIN, BKK, KUL), and when you think of the other markets, only HKG has more frequency (6 flights total with CX and UA) than TYO after the reductions. The 5 daily flights is better than the 3.5 to PEK and PVG or 3 to TPE and ICN.
Last edited by dmstorm22 on Wed Aug 10, 2016 1:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
jumbojet
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Re: Delta to cut JFK-NRT, NRT-BKK/KIX; MSP-NRT decision 'pending'

Wed Aug 10, 2016 1:26 pm

jfklganyc wrote:
jumbojet wrote:
codc10 wrote:
.


You just listed everywhere. Plus the Africa flights. Don't get me wrong, I find it disgraceful for Deltas NYC hub to end and Asia link (without even a codeshare in place) but other than Asia, Delta is pretty well rounded from NYC.

But this is a surprise move.

What's left NYC-TYO now?

NH 2 daily JFK
JL 2 daily JFK
UA 1 daily EWR


Pretty slim pickings for 2 of the largest and most important cities in the world


OK so sure, there are a few North Africa flights from JFK which I believe DL uses the 757 for but what about the rest of the world outside of our friends to the north and directly below us to the south? Although AA doesn't fly non stop to NRT from NYC, at least you have two daily non stops with partner Japan Airlines. Who in there right mind is going to want to connect in this market? It will be interesting to see how Delta.com routes me when I plug in JFK to SIN.
 
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enilria
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Re: Delta to cut JFK-NRT, NRT-BKK/KIX; MSP-NRT decision 'pending'

Wed Aug 10, 2016 1:27 pm

codc10 wrote:
ANA787 wrote:
Surprised PDX-NRT didn't get cut as well.

commavia wrote:
JFK really surprises me - I did not think Delta would exit that market, and JFK-Asia, completely. Again, I would have expected a downgauge (to 777) instead of a discontinuation, as the NRT flight seems like a pretty important and compelling one for Delta's corporate presence in NYC, not to mention it's just a huge O&D market in its own right.

I agree about JFK and I would have to think PDX would be the better choice for elimination. PDX will be awful with all that connecting feed lost.

I think the 747 retirements now make a lot more sense. It was never about replacing those airplanes, it was about shrinking. Not just shrinking aircraft size, but shrinking frequency as well.
commavia wrote:
MSP is not surprising at all, and indeed this was pretty much the obvious outcome once Delta got MSP-HND, as there was obviously no need for that much capacity MSP-TYO.

The real question is whether MSP-HND will succeed since HND has failed from similar (or stronger) markets. Would they switch it back to NRT or just bail out? I think the latter. Interesting, since DL committed in a lease renegotiation from last year that used PFC money to lower their rent, to add a second Asia route from MSP. I'm sure nobody holds anyone to those commitments.

DL said in January if HND opened up further they would end MSP-Tokyo, not Narita, but TOKYO service.
viewtopic.php?t=600845
Sightseer wrote:
DL needs a JV with KE yesterday.
C010T3 wrote:
Oh, Delta, it's time to make amends with Korean.

The Bridge Over the River Kwai is less burned than that bridge. It won't happen. KE wants to grow and DL gives a much greater priority to capacity management than to network breadth in its JV partners. That deal will not happen unless DL changes strategies or KE's family management is somehow replaced. Both are about 1% likelihood.
 
lavalampluva
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Re: Delta to cut JFK-NRT, NRT-BKK/KIX; MSP-NRT decision 'pending'

Wed Aug 10, 2016 1:31 pm

Maybe DL needs to find alliance partner at Haneda. But I think the pickings there might be a bit slim. Probably a partnership with KE would be better, but DL isn't making it easy.
Last edited by lavalampluva on Wed Aug 10, 2016 1:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Remind me to send a thank you note to Mr. Boeing.
 
a380787
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Re: Delta to cut JFK-NRT, NRT-BKK/KIX; MSP-NRT decision 'pending'

Wed Aug 10, 2016 1:41 pm

airbazar wrote:
a380787 wrote:
And amazing the airline claiming to be so called "winning New York" is entirely disconnected nonstop on NYC-Far East on either their own metal or any form of JV.

They code-share with KE on JFK-ICN, twice daily and ICN gives them far better coverage for Asia than NRT. They already have a vast code-share agreement with KE out of ICN.
I know it sucks for DL frequent fliers who need to fly the NYC-TYO route but that number must not be very large if they are dropping the route. It must be hard to compete with OW and *A on that route.


And the pax *must* book the DL codeshare (as opposed to the underlying KE code) to earn any MQM qualification credit. SEA is only connected to 5 airports in East Asia while PVG is only connected to 3 lower48 US airports on DL metal - hardly a replacement solution for the rapid dismantling of NRT.
 
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compensateme
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Re: Delta to cut JFK-NRT, NRT-BKK/KIX; MSP-NRT decision 'pending'

Wed Aug 10, 2016 1:49 pm

jetblastdubai wrote:

I thought DL had the government contract for BKK which was a reason UA left BKK. Is there a penalty to closing the station if they have a contract or does the contract expire before the station closes?


usxguy wrote:
Although I get yield & load factor don't go hand in hand, I thought BKK was one of DL's most insanely high load factor flights...


BKK was operated with the 763 and is an "insanely" low yielding market, hence why TG no longer serves the USA.

jbs2886 wrote:
Also, will KIX only be served from HNL? Or will they add that from SEA (again?)?


SEA/KIX barely lasted a year and NRT/KIX didn't return until two years later. It's hard to envision SEA/KIX returning in the near future.

MSPNWA wrote:
Didn't see JFK-NRT coming yet. No SkyTeam on NYC-TYO is pretty amazing. A couple big blows the NRT hub too. And big losses will come soon for MSP-originating passengers. Connections to Asia will not be as easy.


keesje wrote:
MSP-NRT out, that's a lot of RedTail history.

I think it used to be twice daily 15 yrs ago.


1) It isn't like DL's ending MSP-TYO.
2) Connections to Asia will be just as easy as ever, since MSP-based passengers can simply travel via SEA. Destinations unique to NRT hardly generated traffic from MSP.
3) NW bounced additional frequencies between MSP/DTW to NRT in the 1990s and 2000s. This wasn't about the local markets, but rather NW's huge reliance on revenue from Asia. Of course, DL has since revealed that NW's services were largely unprofitable during those eras.

panam330 wrote:
No doubt ushered along to help SEA continue developing. UA slowly pulled down the majority of its beyond-NRT flying years back as SFO developed. It's time for DL to finish doing the same.


Doubt it had to do anything with SEA. SEA doesn't serve BKK or KIX (nor is it likely to) and most of the passengers who want to travel to NRT's unique destinations will flow via DTW & ATL instead.

jfklganyc wrote:
You just listed everywhere. Plus the Africa flights. Don't get me wrong, I find it disgraceful for Deltas NYC hub to end and Asia link (without even a codeshare in place) but other than Asia, Delta is pretty well rounded from NYC.
...
Pretty slim pickings for 2 of the largest and most important cities in the world


Disgraceful? DL's a for-profit corporation; there's no reason for it to serve NYC-Asia if the market can't produce positively to the network.
---
DL never had a NYC/Asia expansion and as I've pointed out at different points in time, their JFK/NRT service appeared to be struggling. The "DL buildup to Asia that's a matter of when, not if" was a product of the fantasies of this forum's more notorious DL fanboys.
We don’t care what your next flight is.
 
stlgph
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Re: Delta to cut JFK-NRT, NRT-BKK/KIX; MSP-NRT decision 'pending'

Wed Aug 10, 2016 1:49 pm

jumbojet wrote:
commavia wrote:
codc10 wrote:
Major changes to Delta's APAC network announced internally. JFK-NRT gone; as is NRT-BKK/KIX. BKK station will close. MSP-NRT cut likely once the DOT award for HND goes final, but the company is noncommittal on that. LAX-HND to 777.

Mods please delete if dupe.


BKK is a bit surprising in that while the market is competitive, it isn't small, and I thought Delta would go down to a 767 instead of cutting completely.

JFK really surprises me - I did not think Delta would exit that market, and JFK-Asia, completely. Again, I would have expected a downgauge (to 777) instead of a discontinuation, as the NRT flight seems like.


JFK-NRT has been back to a T7 for well over a year now.

As much as I am a Delta 'fanboy', living in the NY area, I really don't care to make a connection when flying to Tokyo. So, basically that means I have to choose another airline? How many others are going to book a connection or simply choose a different airline to go non stop? Also, pretty lame to think that living in NYC, and flying Delta, I will now have to double connect if I want to go to such places like Singapore. To me, Delta is completely throwing in the towel when it comes to the Pacific. I don't think many people are going to be interested in flying China Eastern and connecting through Shanghai to get to SIN on a one stop departing from NY or BKK through any other Delta hub. Basically, Delta is betting its TPAC future on China Eastern and Shanghai.

Delta needs new leadership to completely rethink the JFK hub. NYC is such a large market, has to be one of the largest in the world, and yet soon you can only fly to Europe non stop on Delta metal, truly pathetic. I actually cant wait for Jet Blue to start non stop JFK - Europe flights now. Will Delta leave Europe at that point in time?


Wow. I don't even know where to stop laughing at that one. JetBlue sending a couple of 321's over the Atlantic and Delta is going to end JFK to all of Europe?
That's absolute hilarity.
If anything I look for them to jump on some more TATL out of Boston ahead of the Blue.
if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
 
FlyPNS1
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Re: Delta to cut JFK-NRT, NRT-BKK/KIX; MSP-NRT decision 'pending'

Wed Aug 10, 2016 1:54 pm

enilria wrote:
KE wants to grow and DL gives a much greater priority to capacity management than to network breadth in its JV partners.


Except that KE isn't growing much in North America. Right now, KE is getting it's lunch eaten by the rapid growth of service to China overflying ICN. And getting in bed with AA is problematic because of AA's investment in JAL meaning connecting flows get split and not in KE's favor.
 
stratacruiser
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Re: Delta to cut JFK-NRT, NRT-BKK/KIX; MSP-NRT decision 'pending'

Wed Aug 10, 2016 2:03 pm

I wonder if DL's exit from BKK increases the likelihood of UA re-entering with a 788/9 non-stop from SFO? Slightly less distance than the new SIN non-stop, so within operational range. With TG having left the US market and the political situation in Thailand seeming to have stabilized, maybe the time is right?
 
usflyer msp
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Re: Delta to cut JFK-NRT, NRT-BKK/KIX; MSP-NRT decision 'pending'

Wed Aug 10, 2016 2:19 pm

stratacruiser wrote:
I wonder if DL's exit from BKK increases the likelihood of UA re-entering with a 788/9 non-stop from SFO? Slightly less distance than the new SIN non-stop, so within operational range. With TG having left the US market and the political situation in Thailand seeming to have stabilized, maybe the time is right?


Still doesn't change the fact that BKK is generally low-yield (unlike SIN) and that does not lend itself well to ULH services...
 
lawair
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Re: Delta to cut JFK-NRT, NRT-BKK/KIX; MSP-NRT decision 'pending'

Wed Aug 10, 2016 2:19 pm

compensateme wrote:

BKK was operated with the 763 and is an "insanely" low yielding market, hence why TG no longer serves the USA.



It's not as low yielding as people in the US seem to think. It's actually high yielding on BKK-North Asia and some BKK-Europe routes. BKK-US does seem lower yielding, relatively speaking, particularly given the distance required, the dispersal of demand to a greater number of US cities, and the level of competition on fifth freedom routes. For these reasons, TG and US carriers will probably continue to struggle on US-BKK. I know DL has reasons to be in MNL, but MNL-US has roughly equivalent or slightly higher demand than BKK-US, but is considered fairly low yielding as well.

Not relevant to this discussion, but on BKK-Europe routes, premium traffic has picked up considerably, mostly on the ME3: http://www.thailand-business-news.com/m ... asses.html . The number of premium seats provided between BKK and the Middle East/Europe is pretty significant, though the demand for non-premium seats is far greater. BKK-Europe forms 5 of the top 10 most popular O&D routes between Europe and the Asia-Pacific region, and for those ten routes, first class traffic on the ME3 increased 67% while business class traffic increased 47% in 2015.
 
lavalampluva
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Re: Delta to cut JFK-NRT, NRT-BKK/KIX; MSP-NRT decision 'pending'

Wed Aug 10, 2016 2:25 pm

IMO DL lost a lot of steam in Asia, specifically Tokyo. While that might worked back during the NW days, but fliers from the US to Asia, and probably vice versa prefer to get to their destinations as quickly as possible. That might be why NRT has become a weaker hub for DL. If Tokyo is your destination, than HND will work out great for you. HND is around 10 miles out whereas NRT is around 40 miles from downtown Tokyo.

Maybe all this will force DL to strengthen their nonstops from the US to Asia, bypassing Tokyo.
Remind me to send a thank you note to Mr. Boeing.
 
winginit
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Re: Delta to cut JFK-NRT, NRT-BKK/KIX; MSP-NRT decision 'pending'

Wed Aug 10, 2016 2:26 pm

jfklganyc wrote:
I find it disgraceful for Deltas NYC hub to end and Asia link (without even a codeshare in place) but other than Asia, Delta is pretty well rounded from NYC.


Disgraceful? They wouldn't have made these cuts if the routes were profitably contributing to the broader network, so you find it disgraceful that they'd cut loss-making routes?
 
DTWPurserBoy
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Re: Delta to cut JFK-NRT, NRT-BKK/KIX; MSP-NRT decision 'pending'

Wed Aug 10, 2016 2:33 pm

NW had dropped JFK-NRT at one point and DL reinstated it. Watch the yen/dollar ratio. Plus with the retiring of the venerable 744 something had to go. Sadly, that was the first flight I ever worked with Northwest Orient and has always had a special place in my heart. But don't count her down and out just yet--what Delta taketh away, Delta can returnith when the market is right (and perhaps with an A359?).

The closing of the BKK base came as a total shocker. They have the loveliest, hardest working flight attendants in the Pacific Division and are gracious and kind. They will be missed.

Ed Bastian has said repeatedly that the new hub for DL in the Pacific will be PVG. I will miss our hotel "aka "The Company Dorm", it's great staff (especially Mitch!) at NRT.

We have a bunch of tiny little restaurants within walking distance of the NRT hotel and just last week our favorite, known to crew members as "The Yellow Awning" announced he was closing. Things are changing much too quickly.
Last edited by DTWPurserBoy on Wed Aug 10, 2016 2:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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fun2fly
Posts: 1618
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Re: Delta to cut JFK-NRT, NRT-BKK/KIX; MSP-NRT decision 'pending'

Wed Aug 10, 2016 2:34 pm

jumbojet wrote:
commavia wrote:
codc10 wrote:
Delta needs new leadership to completely rethink the JFK hub. NYC is such a large market, has to be one of the largest in the world, and yet soon you can only fly to Europe non stop on Delta metal, truly pathetic. I actually cant wait for Jet Blue to start non stop JFK - Europe flights now. Will Delta leave Europe at that point in time?


Would they have been able to keep any of these routes if they actually took delivery of their 787's? That's a management call. I do agree, they are driving the NYC community away from DL to Asia after they worked so hard to "WIN NYC" for many years.
 
Rdh3e
Posts: 3632
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Re: Delta to cut JFK-NRT, NRT-BKK/KIX; MSP-NRT decision 'pending'

Wed Aug 10, 2016 2:41 pm

lawair wrote:
It's not as low yielding as people in the US seem to think. It's actually high yielding on BKK-North Asia and some BKK-Europe routes. BKK-US does seem lower yielding, relatively speaking, particularly given the distance required, the dispersal of demand to a greater number of US cities, and the level of competition on fifth freedom routes. For these reasons, TG and US carriers will probably continue to struggle on US-BKK.

Given this is a discussion of US-Asia, BKK is exactly or maybe even lower yielding that people think. Right now you can get tickets from almost every major American city to BKK for $800 or less round trip. From Chicago you can fly China Eastern round trip including taxes for $441 if you're willing to make two stops, or $555 for one stop (found on Kayak for October travel). That is a grand total of 3.1 cents per mile ticket to the passenger for the one stop. After removing taxes the airline is generating less than 3 cents per mile yield.
 
Flighty
Posts: 9963
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2007 3:07 am

Re: Delta to cut JFK-NRT, NRT-BKK/KIX; MSP-NRT decision 'pending'

Wed Aug 10, 2016 2:41 pm

Obvious point to make... TYO is just a spoke for Delta now.

No more, no less. They will probably squat on their slots though, right? Maybe with CRJs? :D

DTW, was it the Narita View? I got stashed in there when a 742 went mech. They put me on a JAL 744 the next morning :D
Last edited by Flighty on Wed Aug 10, 2016 3:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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