Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
jetlanta
Posts: 1664
Joined: Thu Jul 12, 2001 2:35 am

Re: Delta to cut JFK-NRT, NRT-BKK/KIX; MSP-NRT decision 'pending'

Wed Aug 10, 2016 8:38 pm

Not sure why some are surprised. Delta fought the HND slot battle for a couple of years and lost. They made it very clear during that time that NRT was unsustainable as a hub if HND was only marginally liberalized. This is the new reality, Delta has to make lemonade out of lemons here.

JFK-NRT was a loser WITH a hub at NRT. It always has been. It was maintained to support the NRT hub. No airline can be all things to all people in NYC, and Delta was basically inconsequential from NYC to Asia anyway. This doesn't change that. It literally only affects a handful of NYC-TYO O&D passengers. Delta didn't carry very many of those in the first place and they weren't generally that valuable versus what ANA and JAL carried due to their JVs.

On the other hand, times change. This announcement is just one step in a transformation that you can be sure will have many more facets.
 
User avatar
spinkid
Posts: 1900
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2001 5:59 am

Re: Delta to cut JFK-NRT, NRT-BKK/KIX; MSP-NRT decision 'pending'

Wed Aug 10, 2016 9:00 pm

Recall. This is an internal leak only still.............................................No confirmation.

I'd hate to see JFK-NRT, along with the BKK tag is a route I've flown often.
 
User avatar
United787
Posts: 2943
Joined: Fri May 20, 2005 12:20 pm

Re: Delta to cut JFK-NRT, NRT-BKK/KIX; MSP-NRT decision 'pending'

Wed Aug 10, 2016 9:02 pm

I can only see this as some sort of strategic strategy to get JFK-HND.

Even with UA eliminating it's NRT hub, they still kept service from all of their hubs to NRT and even added DEN; that is all 8 hubs + HNL; SEA was the only one that lost service and that was an outstation. I am sure they downgauged the aircraft but service didn't disappear entirely.

But with DL, getting rid of JFK-NRT while the SEA hub still has it's training wheels on... I don't get it... NRT
 
ty97
Posts: 661
Joined: Fri May 15, 2015 1:06 am

Re: Delta to cut JFK-NRT, NRT-BKK/KIX; MSP-NRT decision 'pending'

Wed Aug 10, 2016 9:21 pm

spinkid wrote:
Recall. This is an internal leak only still.............................................No confirmation.

I'd hate to see JFK-NRT, along with the BKK tag is a route I've flown often.


The PR was posted upthread. It's official.

http://news.delta.com/executive-qa-delt ... -agreement
 
SESGDL
Posts: 2920
Joined: Sat Jan 13, 2001 6:25 am

Re: Delta to cut JFK-NRT, NRT-BKK/KIX; MSP-NRT decision 'pending'

Wed Aug 10, 2016 9:21 pm

spinkid wrote:
Recall. This is an internal leak only still.............................................No confirmation.

I'd hate to see JFK-NRT, along with the BKK tag is a route I've flown often.


Someone already posted the press release that DL issued today, it's official.

Jeremy
 
Fastphilly
Posts: 361
Joined: Mon Apr 09, 2012 5:32 am

Re: Delta to cut JFK-NRT, NRT-BKK/KIX; MSP-NRT decision 'pending'

Wed Aug 10, 2016 9:27 pm

well if there is a route to be cut I'd imagine it's MSP-TYO. 25 PDEW is rock bottom. Perhaps DL is holding on to the flight because if they cancel it without swapping with a new route to HND they would lose the slot?
 
airtechy
Posts: 796
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2006 7:35 am

Re: Delta to cut JFK-NRT, NRT-BKK/KIX; MSP-NRT decision 'pending'

Wed Aug 10, 2016 10:05 pm

So wonder how Delta will get me from Florida to Bangkok. Maybe ATL-AMS-BKK? DTW-ICN-BKK?
 
codc10
Topic Author
Posts: 2962
Joined: Sat Jul 08, 2000 7:18 am

Re: Delta to cut JFK-NRT, NRT-BKK/KIX; MSP-NRT decision 'pending'

Wed Aug 10, 2016 10:07 pm

United787 wrote:
Even with UA eliminating it's NRT hub, they still kept service from all of their hubs to NRT and even added DEN; that is all 8 hubs + HNL; SEA was the only one that lost service and that was an outstation. I am sure they downgauged the aircraft but service didn't disappear entirely.


United has drawn down its own-metal beyond flying ex-NRT, but has mostly retained its incoming flow to the hub, with some capacity adjustments, and DEN has essentially replaced SEA. The difference is UAL is passing inbound traffic on to ANA, while still retaining a piece of the revenue pie. That's why NRT service, even alongside HND, remains viable for United.

Delta, on the other hand, has no JV partner at NRT to pass the traffic off to, and must rely on its own costly infrastructure to handle that flow. At the same time, fifth-freedom operations no longer drive the same yields due to nonstop competition and/or additional capacity in the markets. Not surprisingly, the losses sustained by the beyond flying will eventually negate the contribution of the endpoints, and service will end. The Japanese carriers are better-equipped to manage flying beyond NRT, so AA and UA have better long-term prospects of a NRT connecting hub than DL, and is the reason DL wants to migrate the NRT operation to PVG with a long-term goal of a JV with MU.
 
airtechy
Posts: 796
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2006 7:35 am

Re: Delta to cut JFK-NRT, NRT-BKK/KIX; MSP-NRT decision 'pending'

Wed Aug 10, 2016 10:10 pm

Until the Chinese eliminate the visa requirement, a route through PVG to BKK is a non-starter for me.
 
jasoncrh
Posts: 784
Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2005 10:29 pm

Re: Delta to cut JFK-NRT, NRT-BKK/KIX; MSP-NRT decision 'pending'

Wed Aug 10, 2016 10:18 pm

airtechy wrote:
Until the Chinese eliminate the visa requirement, a route through PVG to BKK is a non-starter for me.




No visa needed to transit China. You can even transit for 3 days without visa if you have an onward ticket.
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 8979
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: Delta to cut JFK-NRT, NRT-BKK/KIX; MSP-NRT decision 'pending'

Wed Aug 10, 2016 10:21 pm

airtechy wrote:
Until the Chinese eliminate the visa requirement, a route through PVG to BKK is a non-starter for me.


72-hour in-transit visa?

http://www.chinaembassy.org.nz/eng/lsqz/t1002503.htm


China Eastern JFK-PVG-BKK actually looks pretty time-efficient for NYC travelers looking for SkyTeam. KE would work, too.
 
airtechy
Posts: 796
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2006 7:35 am

Re: Delta to cut JFK-NRT, NRT-BKK/KIX; MSP-NRT decision 'pending'

Wed Aug 10, 2016 10:24 pm

jasoncrh wrote:
airtechy wrote:
Until the Chinese eliminate the visa requirement, a route through PVG to BKK is a non-starter for me.




No visa needed to transit China. You can even transit for 3 days without visa if you have an onward ticket.


....and what happens if the unplanned happens and you get stuck for more than three days? Or the plane is diverted to another Chinese airport? Seems like having a hub in a communist country is a bad idea to start with.
 
airtechy
Posts: 796
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2006 7:35 am

Re: Delta to cut JFK-NRT, NRT-BKK/KIX; MSP-NRT decision 'pending'

Wed Aug 10, 2016 10:30 pm

I will see what Delta offers. As I fly this route several times a year and my partner flies it many times a year, this has a direct impact on us. :(
 
User avatar
compensateme
Posts: 3279
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2009 4:17 am

Re: Delta to cut JFK-NRT, NRT-BKK/KIX; MSP-NRT decision 'pending'

Wed Aug 10, 2016 10:56 pm

MSPNWA wrote:
We've been through this before -- the amount of traffic between MSP & KIX, BKK & MNL is insignificant (and combined wouldn't fill a BE1 most days). Very few people will be impacted -- more will appreciate the service to HND than the loss of connections via NRT.


You can cover your ears, scream, and roll on the ground kicking all you want, but it won't change the truth that DL's own executives have said, and what the traffic data says. Your argument belies facts and is invalid. End of story. [quote]

truth·i·ness - the quality characterizing a "truth" that a person making an argument or assertion claims to know intuitively "from the gut" or because it "feels right" without regard to evidence, logic, intellectual examination, or facts.

MSP is not and never was a large market to Asia; the large capacity that existed was solely a derivative of NW's legacy and extreme regulation on transpacific services.

MSP will anchor the core of DL's network into HND, and that's a positive for the few people who travel between MSP & TYO status quo -- a number far larger than than the few (literally) people flying to SIN and MNL.
We don’t care what your next flight is.
 
ty97
Posts: 661
Joined: Fri May 15, 2015 1:06 am

Re: Delta to cut JFK-NRT, NRT-BKK/KIX; MSP-NRT decision 'pending'

Wed Aug 10, 2016 11:19 pm

airtechy wrote:
So wonder how Delta will get me from Florida to Bangkok. Maybe ATL-AMS-BKK? DTW-ICN-BKK?


Not sure where you are in Florida, but Google Flights for random dates in January from MCO is showing MCO-DTW-ICN-BKK
 
IPFreely
Posts: 2630
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2006 8:26 am

Re: Delta to cut JFK-NRT, NRT-BKK/KIX; MSP-NRT decision 'pending'

Wed Aug 10, 2016 11:25 pm

airtechy wrote:
....and what happens if the unplanned happens and you get stuck for more than three days? Or the plane is diverted to another Chinese airport? Seems like having a hub in a communist country is a bad idea to start with.


Three days? Surely the on-time machine wouldn't have a meltdown that would affect operations for three days. Oh wait....

I do wonder this week's fiasco caused anyone to overstay a visa and if so, how it worked out for them.
 
mplsjefe
Posts: 107
Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2011 1:30 am

Re: Delta to cut JFK-NRT, NRT-BKK/KIX; MSP-NRT decision 'pending'

Wed Aug 10, 2016 11:39 pm

I think dropping JFK-NRT shows just how much DL wants MSP-HND to work: East Coast and Midwest passengers (including NY) will go through MSP for HND, DTW for beyond NRT. While this adds a stop in SEA (or DTW) for MSP passengers going beyond NRT, it allows all east coast and Southeastern traffic to HND to go through MSP adding greatly to the relatively small local O&D MSP-TKO mentioned earlier in this discussion.

It will be very interesting to see if MSP-HND does better with this new specificity in DL’s TKO feed strategy (i.e. MSP and LAX to HND only, ATL, DTW, SEA (and PDX) to NRT only) and may be the key to having this new MSP service succeed where DTW-HND and SEA-HND did not.
 
airtechy
Posts: 796
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2006 7:35 am

Re: Delta to cut JFK-NRT, NRT-BKK/KIX; MSP-NRT decision 'pending'

Wed Aug 10, 2016 11:42 pm

ty97 wrote:
airtechy wrote:
So wonder how Delta will get me from Florida to Bangkok. Maybe ATL-AMS-BKK? DTW-ICN-BKK?


Not sure where you are in Florida, but Google Flights for random dates in January from MCO is showing MCO-DTW-ICN-BKK


Actually, I do use MCO....so that will probably be the suggested route. I guess Delta has a code share with Korean between ICN and BKK. ICN is actually a great airport to transit through.
 
alfa164
Posts: 3797
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2012 2:47 am

Re: Delta to cut JFK-NRT, NRT-BKK/KIX; MSP-NRT decision 'pending'

Wed Aug 10, 2016 11:57 pm

codc10 wrote:
United has drawn down its own-metal beyond flying ex-NRT, but has mostly retained its incoming flow to the hub, with some capacity adjustments, and DEN has essentially replaced SEA. The difference is UAL is passing inbound traffic on to ANA, while still retaining a piece of the revenue pie. That's why NRT service, even alongside HND, remains viable for United.
Delta, on the other hand, has no JV partner at NRT to pass the traffic off to, and must rely on its own costly infrastructure to handle that flow. At the same time, fifth-freedom operations no longer drive the same yields due to nonstop competition and/or additional capacity in the markets. Not surprisingly, the losses sustained by the beyond flying will eventually negate the contribution of the endpoints, and service will end. The Japanese carriers are better-equipped to manage flying beyond NRT, so AA and UA have better long-term prospects of a NRT connecting hub than DL, and is the reason DL wants to migrate the NRT operation to PVG with a long-term goal of a JV with MU.

Absolutely. UA not only has a JV partner to handle connections to points beyond NRT - more points than DL could even contemplate with its own equipment - but they had to foresight to order and take delivery of the 787, a game-changer allowing them to expand point-to-point flying from their SFO mega-hub to Asian destinations that are out of reach for most of the competition.

Call me crazy (and you won't be the first), but I think DL has been premature in taking-down the NRT hub. Without it, they have no credible way to extend their reach in Southeast Asia. Transiting NRT wasn't perfect, but it was an almost-perfect distance and ideal route to break-up the flights between DL's USA departure cities and their Asian destinations. No, a codeshare via PVG with MU is not the answer; I don't see what it offers over what NRT already has; is is not as conveniently located route-wise, and MU is hardly the level of service that Asian travelers expect. And don't even get me started on the 787 delats/cancellations/whatever they turn out to be. I saw one DL executive - and I apologize, I don't remember who he was - claiming that DL was ambivalent about that aircraft because "it arrived late and was heavier than it was supposed to be". Really? We know it was late; what new aircraft isn't these days? And heavier? What is the problem? It is still the most efficient plane for the missions DL so desperately needs. Let it be a little heavier than expected. UA has taken advantage of its abilitiest; AA is doing so, too. DL isn't.

Five years ago, there were two US carriers making major inroads in the Asian marker: UA and DL. It looks like UA (despite dropping BKK, which is not a serious problem as long as they have the NH codeshare) has been making all the right moves, and DL all the wrong ones. When the Asian economies bounce back - as they will, as all things are cyclical - DL may find itself taking a far back seat in a very important market.
I'm going to have a smokin' hot body again!
I have decided to be cremated....
 
TW870
Posts: 1282
Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2013 2:01 am

Re: Delta to cut JFK-NRT, NRT-BKK/KIX; MSP-NRT decision 'pending'

Thu Aug 11, 2016 12:13 am

I am frequently shocked at how cheap it is to fly to Bangkok. I went with some buddies on a SE Asia trip last fall, and the clincher was when I showed them IAH-BKK, SGN-IAH (one stop each way through NRT) fares for ~$700 RT.

This seems like the core of the issue. Delta makes a huge amount of money on its domestic network. It is tempting to focus where the money is, and cut most of this low-yield long haul flying. For work, I regular fly MSP-DAY on a 50-seater, and pay $400-$500RT. Compared to $700 for BKK, you can see where the money is. But the only worry is that they are being too conservative, and are weakening their overall position in Asia, which makes them a less effective global competitor. I have no doubt that JFK-NRT was a tough market. But now, UA is absolutely eating its competitors' lunch in NYC and on the West Coast, and that is not a good situation to be in if you are DL.
 
Viscount724
Posts: 19316
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

Re: Delta to cut JFK-NRT, NRT-BKK/KIX; MSP-NRT decision 'pending'

Thu Aug 11, 2016 12:29 am

Also have to consider that the Japanese population is shrinking and aging rapidly. The UN recently forecast that Japan's population will drop by about 20 million by 2050 and by the end of the 21st century will only be 83 million (about the same as in 1950) compared to the current 127 million. Also, roughly 1/3 of the population is over 65 and that's forecast to increase to 40% by 2050.

The state of the Japanese economy also hadn't been conducive to significant growth in outbound travel, and Japan has never been a major tourism destination for Americans. Most leisure traffic on US-Japan routes has always been outbound originating traffic from Japan.
 
jfk777
Posts: 7442
Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2006 7:23 am

Re: Delta to cut JFK-NRT, NRT-BKK/KIX; MSP-NRT decision 'pending'

Thu Aug 11, 2016 1:00 am

Sad to see the last US airline fly JFK to Tokyo. AT one time Delta was the third US airline flying from JFK to NRT with MD-11 when UA and NW flew JFK-NRT. AA also flew from JFK to NRT and then HND. Maybe AA will try ti again with a 787.

ANA and JAL each have double daily flights to JFK, so there is a market there.
 
User avatar
jfklganyc
Posts: 6178
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 2:31 pm

Re: Delta to cut JFK-NRT, NRT-BKK/KIX; MSP-NRT decision 'pending'

Thu Aug 11, 2016 1:02 am

jetlanta wrote:
Not sure why some are surprised. Delta fought the HND slot battle for a couple of years and lost. They made it very clear during that time that NRT was unsustainable as a hub if HND was only marginally liberalized. This is the new reality, Delta has to make lemonade out of lemons here.

JFK-NRT was a loser WITH a hub at NRT. It always has been. It was maintained to support the NRT hub. No airline can be all things to all people in NYC, and Delta was basically inconsequential from NYC to Asia anyway. This doesn't change that. It literally only affects a handful of NYC-TYO O&D passengers. Delta didn't carry very many of those in the first place and they weren't generally that valuable versus what ANA and JAL carried due to their JVs.

On the other hand, times change. This announcement is just one step in a transformation that you can be sure will have many more facets.


Actually, UA, there biggest competition in the NYC market really is all things to all people in NYC. Sure, they dont fly to JFK and have a token presence at LGA. But they can get you anywhere in the world nonstop that could warrant a nonstop from NYC nearby EWR.

Let's not gloss it over, NRT isnt a secondary city in a secondary region of the world. Delta wants to be #1 in the NYC market and they can no longer get you to Asia without a connection. Period. That's a no go for being #1, go to airline.
 
Flighty
Posts: 9963
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2007 3:07 am

Re: Delta to cut JFK-NRT, NRT-BKK/KIX; MSP-NRT decision 'pending'

Thu Aug 11, 2016 1:17 am

TW870 wrote:
I am frequently shocked at how cheap it is to fly to Bangkok. I went with some buddies on a SE Asia trip last fall, and the clincher was when I showed them IAH-BKK, SGN-IAH (one stop each way through NRT) fares for ~$700 RT.

This seems like the core of the issue. Delta makes a huge amount of money on its domestic network. It is tempting to focus where the money is, and cut most of this low-yield long haul flying.


Yes, this shows a good understanding of the business as I understand it. DL mints money in the shorthaul Southeast and Midwest markets. It likely loses money in Asia. It likely breaks even on Europe, other than the summer rush, meaning overall it is slightly profitable. Probably loses money in West Coast operations.

These Asia routes are considered "speculative strategic business." So they are allowed to lose money. But JFK-NRT was around what, 40 years or something like that. Some routes are too competitive to make money. You either fly your flag, at your own cost, or admit it is a charade an get out of there.
 
User avatar
enilria
Posts: 10407
Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2008 7:15 pm

Re: Delta to cut JFK-NRT, NRT-BKK/KIX; MSP-NRT decision 'pending'

Thu Aug 11, 2016 1:19 am

Interview on the downsizing with DL VP, blames HND.

http://aviationtribune.com/airlines/nor ... agreement/
 
jumbojet
Posts: 2957
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2003 3:01 am

Re: Delta to cut JFK-NRT, NRT-BKK/KIX; MSP-NRT decision 'pending'

Thu Aug 11, 2016 1:57 am

MIflyer12 wrote:
airtechy wrote:
Until the Chinese eliminate the visa requirement, a route through PVG to BKK is a non-starter for me.


72-hour in-transit visa?

http://www.chinaembassy.org.nz/eng/lsqz/t1002503.htm


China Eastern JFK-PVG-BKK actually looks pretty time-efficient for NYC travelers looking for SkyTeam. KE would work, too.


except that you can't burn a GUC on any of those flights. For JFK to BKK, you can double connect through DTW - ICN, which is GUC possible, but ICN - BKK which is a 6 hour flight, is not GUC applicable.

For SIN why doesn't DL start a non stop LAX-SIN, there must be a plane that can fly non stop between the two cities.
 
User avatar
LAX772LR
Posts: 13546
Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2014 11:06 pm

Re: Delta to cut JFK-NRT, NRT-BKK/KIX; MSP-NRT decision 'pending'

Thu Aug 11, 2016 2:11 am

deltal1011man wrote:
DL and KE need to end this stupid fight yesterday. Both carriers are going to end up suffering if they don't.

They both clearly already are.


airbazar wrote:
How much of this "stupid fight" is a-net mythology?

A lot. Most notably, the blame assignment. The issue is on both ends, not one, and both sides need each other to varying degrees... neither is doing just hunky-dory on its own.


airbazar wrote:
Looking at the sheer amount of code-sharing that DL does with KE both between the U.S. and ICN as well as beyond ICN, it's hard to believe their business relationship has any problems.

Oh, but it does. Management has admitted to such. In Anderson's previous addresses ("Right From Richard") to employees, accessible to the public, many times did he state DL's position vis-a-vis negotiations with KE, and that the PVG hub was basically DL's attempt to move on instead of treading water waiting for KE to come to their senses (his perspective).
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
PlanesNTrains
Posts: 9524
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 4:19 pm

Re: Delta to cut JFK-NRT, NRT-BKK/KIX; MSP-NRT decision 'pending'

Thu Aug 11, 2016 2:54 am

jumbojet wrote:
has it been mentioned that the reason DL is dropping JFK-NRT is due to the fact that ANA starts non stop JFK-HND October 31?


Is ANA adding HND-MSP as well?
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
PlanesNTrains
Posts: 9524
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 4:19 pm

Re: Delta to cut JFK-NRT, NRT-BKK/KIX; MSP-NRT decision 'pending'

Thu Aug 11, 2016 3:01 am

MSPNWA wrote:
PlanesNTrains wrote:
It's MSP. Who are they going to turn to instead?


'Uh, a competitor?


Sure, but if you're in the twin cities then you are already likely a loyal DL flyer. If DL ends nonstop MSPNRT, do you just throw away your DL allegiance and fly someone else one-stop, or do you simply book DL MSP-SEA/PDX-NRT? I would imagine you'd do the latter. Why wouldn't you?
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
crownvic
Posts: 2768
Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2004 10:16 pm

Re: Delta to cut JFK-NRT, NRT-BKK/KIX; MSP-NRT decision 'pending'

Thu Aug 11, 2016 3:13 am

LAX772LR wrote:
Grummancat wrote:
Too bad all those rioting farmers can't get their land back.

Which is a statement that doesn't make much sense, considering that NRT is busier now than it's ever been.... just not with US carriers.


ktachiya wrote:
Yes, I took this flight about 15 years ago as you mention. Remember two daily B744 to NRT and a B742B on the route to KIX.
To think all that capacity is gone is quite shocking.

I'd say the fact that all that capacity was ever THERE, is far more shocking than the fact that it's now gone. ;)



LAX772LR...You seem to have a problem with what anyone writes or what an airline does. Since you feel you are such a "supreme being" over everyone, perhaps you should head to Washington and take everything over. That means you will have to sell your Hillary shirts off though on eBay!
 
Fastphilly
Posts: 361
Joined: Mon Apr 09, 2012 5:32 am

Re: Delta to cut JFK-NRT, NRT-BKK/KIX; MSP-NRT decision 'pending'

Thu Aug 11, 2016 3:41 am

MSPNWA wrote:
compensateme wrote:
We've been through this before -- the amount of traffic between MSP & KIX, BKK & MNL is insignificant (and combined wouldn't fill a BE1 most days). Very few people will be impacted -- more will appreciate the service to HND than the loss of connections via NRT.


You can cover your ears, scream, and roll on the ground kicking all you want, but it won't change the truth that DL's own executives have said, and what the traffic data says. Your argument belies facts and is invalid. End of story.

PlanesNTrains wrote:
It's MSP. Who are they going to turn to instead? Nobody else is going to offer them as much as or more than DL. Perhaps when ANA or JAL add MSP to their route network, it will matter. Otherwise, they will schlep through another hub - likely SEA on DL - just like most people across the country.

'Uh, a competitor? You can only milk the cow so long. There's a reason competitors have been slowly but surely gaining for years at MSP. It's still a high-yield mine because of aggressive capacity restriction by the fortress hub operator, but for how long? When will it reach a tipping point?


A 25 PDEW MSP-TYO pair, A hub in a region with redundancy (DTW), in the 16th ranked MSA with a CSA population of 3.6 million is significant? To MSP flyers? Yes. To Delta's route network/structure? Not much
Last edited by Fastphilly on Thu Aug 11, 2016 4:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
Fastphilly
Posts: 361
Joined: Mon Apr 09, 2012 5:32 am

Re: Delta to cut JFK-NRT, NRT-BKK/KIX; MSP-NRT decision 'pending'

Thu Aug 11, 2016 4:00 am

TW870 wrote:
I am frequently shocked at how cheap it is to fly to Bangkok. I went with some buddies on a SE Asia trip last fall, and the clincher was when I showed them IAH-BKK, SGN-IAH (one stop each way through NRT) fares for ~$700 RT.

This seems like the core of the issue. Delta makes a huge amount of money on its domestic network. It is tempting to focus where the money is, and cut most of this low-yield long haul flying. For work, I regular fly MSP-DAY on a 50-seater, and pay $400-$500RT. Compared to $700 for BKK, you can see where the money is. But the only worry is that they are being too conservative, and are weakening their overall position in Asia, which makes them a less effective global competitor. I have no doubt that JFK-NRT was a tough market. But now, UA is absolutely eating its competitors' lunch in NYC and on the West Coast, and that is not a good situation to be in if you are DL.


Booked my ticket on CI from SFO-MNL (stopover for 2 hours in TPE) from $700 rt. PR was offering a promo for around the same price about two weeks after I booked my ticket for $700 as well. Crossing the Pacific is very reasonable right now :)
 
CHI787ORD
Posts: 817
Joined: Sat Jun 11, 2005 11:27 am

Re: Delta to cut JFK-NRT, NRT-BKK/KIX; MSP-NRT decision 'pending'

Thu Aug 11, 2016 4:00 am

jfklganyc wrote:
jumbojet wrote:
codc10 wrote:

What's left NYC-TYO now?

NH 2 daily JFK
JL 2 daily JFK
UA 1 daily EWR


Pretty slim pickings for 2 of the largest and most important cities in the world


Same amount of frequencies as ORD-TYO now
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
Posts: 8528
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 11:45 am

Re: Delta to cut JFK-NRT, NRT-BKK/KIX; MSP-NRT decision 'pending'

Thu Aug 11, 2016 4:03 am

This is a very interesting development but taking a step back, there are several aspects to consider.

* DL has promised the investor community that they will maintain capacity disipline and keep systemwide capacity growth at less than 2%
- We've seen some capacity additions in certain markets and wondered how they were going to maintain their capacity guidance, well removing this TPAC capacity balances the domestic and rumored TATL additions for 2017

* DL has committed to a 15% winter TPAC capacity reduction for 2017 vs. 2016.
- These cuts come in addition to the day-of-the-week reductions at SEA & DTW plus downgaugin

* DL is accelerating B744 retirements and plans to park them all by late 2017
- There had been questions as to what aircraft were going to cover the remaining 744 flying that is primarily DTW focused

* DL has deffered A350 deliveries out
- Again, wondering where with the B744 retirements and the defferals how they were going to "fund" new routes plus covering the others

* DL has essentially no feed on the JFK side of JFK-NRT
- All of the realistic connections on the JFK side can easily be routed over DTW

* The legacy NW NRT operation relied heavily on the Asia point-of-sale to fill large capacity aircraft
- Many of the flights in Y relied upon consolidator fares and Asia based passenger that was heavily subject to economic cycles and currency rate fluctuations

* Japan is an aging country with slower economic growth compared to other countries/regions in the TPAC

* DL is focusing more on China service, and their domestic network is more oriented toward capturing traffic flows into China and South Korea
- Much of the investment and growth in manufacturing, automotive, and high-tech is focused on areas of China, not necessarily Japan

* The core of DL's network is still well-connected to Japan
- NRT & NGO over DTW for the Midwest & East Coast; HND over MSP for the Midwest and East Coast. SEA, LAX, PDX with NRT & HND for the West Coast operation

Now on the flip side, the counter arguments:

* DL has been big investments in routes, marketing, and infrastructure in NYC
- Not operating a single flight to Asia goes against the brand they are trying to promote

So when I look at it, much of the counter-argument is based on the principles of history, prestige, and as a loss-leader for NYC. Not sure how that stands-up when looking at the overall numbers. There are obviously other more strategic places that DL believes they will take the risk to invest. The fact they are cutting their only Asia service from NYC, one of their big areas of focus is pretty telling that it was a financial drag.
 
Fastphilly
Posts: 361
Joined: Mon Apr 09, 2012 5:32 am

Re: Delta to cut JFK-NRT, NRT-BKK/KIX; MSP-NRT decision 'pending'

Thu Aug 11, 2016 4:12 am

LAX772LR wrote:
deltal1011man wrote:
DL and KE need to end this stupid fight yesterday. Both carriers are going to end up suffering if they don't.

They both clearly already are.


airbazar wrote:
How much of this "stupid fight" is a-net mythology?

A lot. Most notably, the blame assignment. The issue is on both ends, not one, and both sides need each other to varying degrees... neither is doing just hunky-dory on its own.


airbazar wrote:
Looking at the sheer amount of code-sharing that DL does with KE both between the U.S. and ICN as well as beyond ICN, it's hard to believe their business relationship has any problems.

Oh, but it does. Management has admitted to such. In Anderson's previous addresses ("Right From Richard") to employees, accessible to the public, many times did he state DL's position vis-a-vis negotiations with KE, and that the PVG hub was basically DL's attempt to move on instead of treading water waiting for KE to come to their senses (his perspective).


Getting cozy with MU (which ranks low among Asian global carriers) at a PVG hub that's YEARS behind the other prominent Asian hubs in Infrastructure. I wonder how any carrier could make a move like that. I guess desperate times call for desperate measures. DL is in worse shape in Southeast Asia than I thought.
 
jfkgig
Posts: 197
Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2011 3:45 am

Re: Delta to cut JFK-NRT, NRT-BKK/KIX; MSP-NRT decision 'pending'

Thu Aug 11, 2016 4:28 am

airtechy wrote:
jasoncrh wrote:
airtechy wrote:
Until the Chinese eliminate the visa requirement, a route through PVG to BKK is a non-starter for me.




No visa needed to transit China. You can even transit for 3 days without visa if you have an onward ticket.


....and what happens if the unplanned happens and you get stuck for more than three days? Or the plane is diverted to another Chinese airport? Seems like having a hub in a communist country is a bad idea to start with.


This would not be a problem. You can legally enter China at PVG if your onward flight is scheduled to leave within the permitted time frame -- without regard to when it actually does leave due to delays or irregular operations. You would not have to worry about violating your visa, because there is no visa -- the visa is waived, and you have entered China legally. Its a bit better than this even, because there is a great likelihood that you live in one of 51 countries that now have a 144 hour (6 day) allowance for your onward travel to a third country to qualify for visa free entry at PVG (and some other ports). Communist or not, my own sense is that the Chinese immigration authorities at PVG are not looking to hassle those transiting, and you are likely to find them much more accommodating, friendly, and helpful than immigration officers in the USA. Last time I entered PVG, I neglected to make a copy of my onward itinerary, and they took a picture of the itinerary on my phone and scanned and printed it for me.

Personally I would prefer PVG as a hub to NRT. Its logistically easier if you have a layover (much easier to get into town from PVG than NRT), and has great connections almost everywhere, usually for lower fares than are available at NRT. But now having no Asian hub from JFK is likely to mean that my travel to Asia on DL is done -- I'm not going to make 2 stops to get where I am going. That's too bad, because the JFK-SIN was pretty convenient, and though the business class is not quite up to the competition (the crews on the Asian segments was almost always top-notch), was still usually a good deal for the price. Its surprising to me to see DL blow up their entire Asian network from JFK.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
Posts: 8528
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 11:45 am

Re: Delta to cut JFK-NRT, NRT-BKK/KIX; MSP-NRT decision 'pending'

Thu Aug 11, 2016 4:45 am

If you actually look at the prices that DL is offering on flights out of JFK to Asia its no wonder they are cutting JFK-NRT and not focusing on JFK-Asia

In September:
DL JFK-NRT-BKK $702 r/t in Y, $6427 in J
DL JFK-SEA/DTW/NRT-PVG $890 r/t in Y, $4750 in J
DL JFK-NRT-SIN $639 r/t in Y, $5000 in J

Those Y fares are ridiculously low for that distance in comparison to the rest of the network. You can't fly DTW-IND/MKE/MSN/YYZ/SDF for these prices during the week.
 
User avatar
ADent
Posts: 1161
Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2006 12:11 pm

Re: Delta to cut JFK-NRT, NRT-BKK/KIX; MSP-NRT decision 'pending'

Thu Aug 11, 2016 4:54 am

jfkgig wrote:
This would not be a problem. You can legally enter China at PVG if your onward flight is scheduled to leave within the permitted time frame -- without regard to when it actually does leave due to delays or irregular operations.


Just be careful if your plane makes a stop elsewhere - remember the New Zealand girls that got detained and deported because their IST-PEK flight stopped in Urumqi.

http://onemileatatime.boardingarea.com/ ... rom-china/
 
jbs2886
Posts: 2626
Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2015 9:07 pm

Re: Delta to cut JFK-NRT, NRT-BKK/KIX; MSP-NRT decision 'pending'

Thu Aug 11, 2016 5:03 am

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
This is a very interesting development but taking a step back, there are several aspects to consider.

* DL has promised the investor community that they will maintain capacity disipline and keep systemwide capacity growth at less than 2%
- We've seen some capacity additions in certain markets and wondered how they were going to maintain their capacity guidance, well removing this TPAC capacity balances the domestic and rumored TATL additions for 2017

* DL has committed to a 15% winter TPAC capacity reduction for 2017 vs. 2016.
- These cuts come in addition to the day-of-the-week reductions at SEA & DTW plus downgaugin

* DL is accelerating B744 retirements and plans to park them all by late 2017
- There had been questions as to what aircraft were going to cover the remaining 744 flying that is primarily DTW focused

* DL has deffered A350 deliveries out
- Again, wondering where with the B744 retirements and the defferals how they were going to "fund" new routes plus covering the others

* DL has essentially no feed on the JFK side of JFK-NRT
- All of the realistic connections on the JFK side can easily be routed over DTW

* The legacy NW NRT operation relied heavily on the Asia point-of-sale to fill large capacity aircraft
- Many of the flights in Y relied upon consolidator fares and Asia based passenger that was heavily subject to economic cycles and currency rate fluctuations

* Japan is an aging country with slower economic growth compared to other countries/regions in the TPAC

* DL is focusing more on China service, and their domestic network is more oriented toward capturing traffic flows into China and South Korea
- Much of the investment and growth in manufacturing, automotive, and high-tech is focused on areas of China, not necessarily Japan

* The core of DL's network is still well-connected to Japan
- NRT & NGO over DTW for the Midwest & East Coast; HND over MSP for the Midwest and East Coast. SEA, LAX, PDX with NRT & HND for the West Coast operation

Now on the flip side, the counter arguments:

* DL has been big investments in routes, marketing, and infrastructure in NYC
- Not operating a single flight to Asia goes against the brand they are trying to promote

So when I look at it, much of the counter-argument is based on the principles of history, prestige, and as a loss-leader for NYC. Not sure how that stands-up when looking at the overall numbers. There are obviously other more strategic places that DL believes they will take the risk to invest. The fact they are cutting their only Asia service from NYC, one of their big areas of focus is pretty telling that it was a financial drag.


Not to totally change the topic. But what are the rumored TATL additions?
 
DBun
Posts: 25
Joined: Fri Apr 08, 2016 9:30 pm

Re: Delta to cut JFK-NRT, NRT-BKK/KIX; MSP-NRT decision 'pending'

Thu Aug 11, 2016 6:20 am

jbs2886 wrote:
PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
This is a very interesting development but taking a step back, there are several aspects to consider.

* DL has promised the investor community that they will maintain capacity disipline and keep systemwide capacity growth at less than 2%
- We've seen some capacity additions in certain markets and wondered how they were going to maintain their capacity guidance, well removing this TPAC capacity balances the domestic and rumored TATL additions for 2017

* DL has committed to a 15% winter TPAC capacity reduction for 2017 vs. 2016.
- These cuts come in addition to the day-of-the-week reductions at SEA & DTW plus downgaugin

* DL is accelerating B744 retirements and plans to park them all by late 2017
- There had been questions as to what aircraft were going to cover the remaining 744 flying that is primarily DTW focused

* DL has deffered A350 deliveries out
- Again, wondering where with the B744 retirements and the defferals how they were going to "fund" new routes plus covering the others

* DL has essentially no feed on the JFK side of JFK-NRT
- All of the realistic connections on the JFK side can easily be routed over DTW

* The legacy NW NRT operation relied heavily on the Asia point-of-sale to fill large capacity aircraft
- Many of the flights in Y relied upon consolidator fares and Asia based passenger that was heavily subject to economic cycles and currency rate fluctuations

* Japan is an aging country with slower economic growth compared to other countries/regions in the TPAC

* DL is focusing more on China service, and their domestic network is more oriented toward capturing traffic flows into China and South Korea
- Much of the investment and growth in manufacturing, automotive, and high-tech is focused on areas of China, not necessarily Japan

* The core of DL's network is still well-connected to Japan
- NRT & NGO over DTW for the Midwest & East Coast; HND over MSP for the Midwest and East Coast. SEA, LAX, PDX with NRT & HND for the West Coast operation

Now on the flip side, the counter arguments:

* DL has been big investments in routes, marketing, and infrastructure in NYC
- Not operating a single flight to Asia goes against the brand they are trying to promote

So when I look at it, much of the counter-argument is based on the principles of history, prestige, and as a loss-leader for NYC. Not sure how that stands-up when looking at the overall numbers. There are obviously other more strategic places that DL believes they will take the risk to invest. The fact they are cutting their only Asia service from NYC, one of their big areas of focus is pretty telling that it was a financial drag.


Not to totally change the topic. But what are the rumored TATL additions?


The rumor over on another forum is DTW- MAN and PDX- CDG...who knows if that carries any weight
 
washingtonflyer
Posts: 1644
Joined: Sun Sep 08, 2013 9:45 pm

Re: Delta to cut JFK-NRT, NRT-BKK/KIX; MSP-NRT decision 'pending'

Thu Aug 11, 2016 10:29 am

jumbojet wrote:
As much as I am a Delta 'fanboy', living in the NY area, I really don't care to make a connection when flying to Tokyo. So, basically that means I have to choose another airline? How many others are going to book a connection or simply choose a different airline to go non stop? Also, pretty lame to think that living in NYC, and flying Delta, I will now have to double connect if I want to go to such places like Singapore. To me, Delta is completely throwing in the towel when it comes to the Pacific. I don't think many people are going to be interested in flying China Eastern and connecting through Shanghai to get to SIN on a one stop departing from NY or BKK through any other Delta hub. Basically, Delta is betting its TPAC future on China Eastern and Shanghai.


Depends on the price. When I was doing a lot of PEK travel a couple years back, I could have flown non-stop on UA for about $8,000 in business or suck up a connection and fly my preferred carrier (AA) for about $5,000. I opted to save the client a lot of money and did the connection...
 
User avatar
enilria
Posts: 10407
Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2008 7:15 pm

Re: Delta to cut JFK-NRT, NRT-BKK/KIX; MSP-NRT decision 'pending'

Thu Aug 11, 2016 1:50 pm

jetlanta wrote:
It literally only affects a handful of NYC-TYO O&D passengers.

According to MIDT, DL was carrying around 80 locals per departure (59,000 per year) on JFK-NRT. More than a handful...and over 3x what MSP-NRT carries locally. The issue was more yield, not volume.
PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
* DL has deffered A350 deliveries out
- Again, wondering where with the B744 retirements and the defferals how they were going to "fund" new routes plus covering the others

I think we can now link the A350 deferral to the closure of the NRT hub coupled with the 744 retirements and HND. I think the 744s going away are as much to blame as HND. Unlike most of DL, they were running a lower yield, high volume hub in somebody else's backyard and the 744s allowed CASM to be where they needed to be. With the A350 or A330 they lost the volume needed to operate the beyond NRT flights and the whole thing folded up. I think you could make the argument that HND has nothing to do with it YET. Perhaps in the crystal ball of the future it is a risk, but given how poorly HND has performed up until now I don't think there should be so much fear that DL shuts a hub. Also, JL/NH are still stuck at NRT for almost all of their USA services, so it isn't really an issue of being at a disadvantage to JL/NH. Finally, the connections of JL/NH are much better at NRT than at HND. Has anybody looked at the schedule from HND for those guys? There are very very few Asia connects compared to NRT. Unless HND opens up enough to transfer those flights from NRT, I don't see the threat of HND being significant for a long time.
LAX772LR wrote:
deltal1011man wrote:
DL and KE need to end this stupid fight yesterday. Both carriers are going to end up suffering if they don't.

They both clearly already are.

DL is clearly strategically suffering and soon to be network suffering. PVG is a much much much worse substitute than ICN. I'm not sure KE's performance would improve much as a result of a Delta relationship, but they would also give up being able to steer the ship and I think one could argue that unlike Europe, DL has not demonstrated they have a superior Asia strategy to the other carriers. I'm sure KE looks at DL and sees them as going backward. I can see why they would not want to surrender management control of their Transpac ops to a carrier that seems in turmoil in the region.
 
User avatar
mercure1
Posts: 5053
Joined: Sun Jul 13, 2008 5:13 am

Re: Delta to cut JFK-NRT, NRT-BKK/KIX; MSP-NRT decision 'pending'

Thu Aug 11, 2016 2:09 pm

alfa164 wrote:
codc10 wrote:
Call me crazy (and you won't be the first), but I think DL has been premature in taking-down the NRT hub.


According to Bastian interview and also in the 'Glory Lost and Found' book about Delta, the Narita hub has lost money for more than a decade and was a loss maker to NWA at the end also.

At some point the willingness to prop NRT up with profits from elsewhere had to come to an end.
Its likely as the market continues to evolve with ever growing Pacific competition the NRT red ink was only getting worse for Delta, and the hub had to be dialed back even if this means loss of connectivity or dropping of some network cities entirely.

Love or hate DL, atleast they are not afraid to make the tough decisions and don't let nostalgia get in the way.
mercure f-wtcc
 
a380787
Posts: 4573
Joined: Tue Jul 09, 2013 4:38 pm

Re: Delta to cut JFK-NRT, NRT-BKK/KIX; MSP-NRT decision 'pending'

Thu Aug 11, 2016 2:22 pm

mercure1 wrote:
According to Bastian interview and also in the 'Glory Lost and Found' book about Delta, the Narita hub has lost money for more than a decade and was a loss maker to NWA at the end also.

At some point the willingness to prop NRT up with profits from elsewhere had to come to an end.
Its likely as the market continues to evolve with ever growing Pacific competition the NRT red ink was only getting worse for Delta, and the hub had to be dialed back even if this means loss of connectivity or dropping of some network cities entirely.

Love or hate DL, at least they are not afraid to make the tough decisions and don't let nostalgia get in the way.


It's completely acceptable for DL to cut their losses. The only issue is that the replacement solution(s) offered is sub-optimal, to put it nicely. Try applying a global upgrade cert on China Eastern and watch their eyes roll.

To all those saying "there were few DL passengers needing to fly NYC-Asia to begin with", that's because it's a chicken-n-egg problem. When you offer a half-baked effort to cater to those passengers, many would already self-attrite to rival alliances, thus making the internal booking data look worse than what the overall market really is.
 
User avatar
IrishAyes
Posts: 2444
Joined: Sat Jan 26, 2008 6:04 pm

Re: Delta to cut JFK-NRT, NRT-BKK/KIX; MSP-NRT decision 'pending'

Thu Aug 11, 2016 2:30 pm

What surprises me the most is how Delta is spinning the story...."despite" the HND agreement ---- they've gotten virtually everything they've asked for!

Also, their "extensive" partnerships with Asian carriers are rather limited. It will be quite challenging for MSP-HND passengers to connect onward to any Asian markets on SkyTeam carriers.

https://airwaysmag.com/airlines/delta-t ... arita-hub/
 
Flighty
Posts: 9963
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2007 3:07 am

Re: Delta to cut JFK-NRT, NRT-BKK/KIX; MSP-NRT decision 'pending'

Thu Aug 11, 2016 4:51 pm

IrishAyes wrote:
What surprises me the most is how Delta is spinning the story...."despite" the HND agreement ---- they've gotten virtually everything they've asked for!

Also, their "extensive" partnerships with Asian carriers are rather limited. It will be quite challenging for MSP-HND passengers to connect onward to any Asian markets on SkyTeam carriers.

https://airwaysmag.com/airlines/delta-t ... arita-hub/


I don't remember the full details, but DL did not want to undermine their NRT hub with new HND allocations.

Now, it's done, so their NRT hub is going to fall apart. They will try things like MSP-HND, but in my opinion, the TYO destination was never what that flight was really about. Maybe in the 80s that argument could be made, when Tokyo was the unquestioned capital of Asia. Today, Tokyo is an important spoke in the global economy. It is a hub in Japanese terms. Which is a minority of Asia.

I don't think a MSP-TYO flight works without a hub on the TYO side, even connecting to so many places on the USA side.

MSP-ICN or MSP-PVG might work, essentially replacing the past role of NRT. 1-stopping MSP to all of Asia AND 1-stopping the entire USA into a huge O&D market. Plus some decent 2-stop arrangements, such as say, Tampa to Chengdu, which aren't going to be 1-stopped very well for a while.
 
commavia
Posts: 11489
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2005 2:30 am

Re: Delta to cut JFK-NRT, NRT-BKK/KIX; MSP-NRT decision 'pending'

Thu Aug 11, 2016 5:02 pm

Flighty wrote:
I don't remember the full details, but DL did not want to undermine their NRT hub with new HND allocations.


Well mission accomplished ... not! Removing two additional contributors to two-way feed at NRT will only further undermine the viability of what connections remain. That was going to be the outcome, anyway, though.

I'd still say that if given the choice, the most logical flights for Delta to shift to HND were LAX and SEA - the former because it's the largest mainland U.S. O&D market and thus would be able to benefit most from HND's convenience, and the latter because it's arguably now less dependent on beyond-NRT connections given the four other daily nonstops to Asia. But, alas, Delta may have thought that SEA was less likely to get awarded given the past failure on the route (a red herring that should not in and of itself counted against Delta, in my view, given the awful schedules of the past) and that Delta would then be getting two allocations from the west coast and not be able to use the "hub geography diversity" argument. Alas, I don't think MSP-HND has particularly great chances of long-term success.

Flighty wrote:
Now, it's done, so their NRT hub is going to fall apart.


Again, the NRT hub was steadily falling apart anyway.

Delta is obviously trying to frame all of this as being a result of HND daytime slots but of course Delta (and before it even Northwest) have/had been steadily pulling capacity out of NRT for well over a decade before HND even opened up.
 
lavalampluva
Posts: 1433
Joined: Tue Jun 24, 2014 7:33 pm

Re: Delta to cut JFK-NRT, NRT-BKK/KIX; MSP-NRT decision 'pending'

Thu Aug 11, 2016 5:20 pm

I wonder if DL is using the MSP-HND flght as a stop gap to keep some passengers getting to Japan until they can boost their long distance aircraft. Maybe they shouldn't have postponed the entry of the 787. But then I guess hindsight is 20/20.
Remind me to send a thank you note to Mr. Boeing.
 
MSPNWA
Posts: 3698
Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2009 2:48 am

Re: Delta to cut JFK-NRT, NRT-BKK/KIX; MSP-NRT decision 'pending'

Thu Aug 11, 2016 5:35 pm

PlanesNTrains wrote:
Sure, but if you're in the twin cities then you are already likely a loyal DL flyer. If DL ends nonstop MSPNRT, do you just throw away your DL allegiance and fly someone else one-stop, or do you simply book DL MSP-SEA/PDX-NRT? I would imagine you'd do the latter. Why wouldn't you?


If flights to Asia are important, DL is steadily becoming less and less attractive. The loss of NRT's beyond-TYO connections may be what tips the scales for some. UA will have far more 1-stop options available via ORD and SFO than DL has via SEA and DTW. And if 2-stops are needed, NH can fill that in much better than DL's partners. At some point you have to feed the cow to milk it. DL isn't doing that to MSP-Asia. Very well might cost them some customers.
 
PlanesNTrains
Posts: 9524
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 4:19 pm

Re: Delta to cut JFK-NRT, NRT-BKK/KIX; MSP-NRT decision 'pending'

Thu Aug 11, 2016 5:39 pm

MSPNWA wrote:
PlanesNTrains wrote:
Sure, but if you're in the twin cities then you are already likely a loyal DL flyer. If DL ends nonstop MSPNRT, do you just throw away your DL allegiance and fly someone else one-stop, or do you simply book DL MSP-SEA/PDX-NRT? I would imagine you'd do the latter. Why wouldn't you?


If flights to Asia are important, DL is steadily becoming less and less attractive. The loss of NRT's beyond-TYO connections may be what tips the scales for some. UA will have far more 1-stop options available via ORD and SFO than DL has via SEA and DTW. And if 2-stops are needed, NH can fill that in much better than DL's partners. At some point you have to feed the cow to milk it. DL isn't doing that to MSP-Asia. Very well might cost them some customers.


Of course it will cost them some customers. Will that cost be higher than retaining MSPNRT?
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos