Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
User avatar
kitplane01
Topic Author
Posts: 2554
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2016 5:58 am

737-MAX at Southwest

Mon Aug 22, 2016 3:44 am

SWADawg wrote:
Sooner787 wrote:
If there is a cliffhanger with the Max program , it involves the launch customer Southwest.
Will the WN pilots approve a new contract to cover the new birds coming on property
by next summer?

That's completely up to WN Management. If they agree to a market rate contract within the next few months then yes. If not, those MAX's will remain parked up in Renton until they do.


Can you explain this? There is NO market for 737-MAX pilots yet, and I understood that Southwest was offering about the same as other airlines.

"The proposed contract would give a Southwest pilot with a 12-year service a pay of $249.82 per hour compared to $234.67 at American Airlines Group Inc. (NASDAQ:AAL) and $245.80 per hour at United Continental. In addition, under the proposed contract, a 12-year first-officer at Southwest would make $174.87 an hour in 2016 under the proposal, compared with $167.89 at United, $160.28 at American"


Of course there are benefits differences too, but they seem to be in the neighborhood.
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 24356
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

Re: 737-MAX at Southwest

Mon Aug 22, 2016 5:11 am

The FAA balked at WN's first attempt at having 737 classics, NG, and MAX in the same pilot pool. As soon as a new pool had to be created, the WN pilots union has negotiating leverage. As of now, WN will receive -8 MAX and not have pilots to fly it.

In response, WN is retiring the 737 classics prior to MAX EIS. This way, they will be able to redo their pilot training to 737NG/MAX and there is no easy stop for the union to prevent the MAX's from flying.

http://crankyflier.com/2016/05/09/labor ... next-year/

So technically, WN doesn't have to approve the new contract to fly the MAXs.

Downside is Southwest is searching for good deal 737NGs (737-700 or 73Gs and 737-800 or 738s). For on one day, they plan to retire fifty (50) 737-300s! Most analysts think Southwest will be short on airframes and so will have to temporarily, until MAXs are delivered, downsize. For the Pilots union, this will be a sharp cut in flying hours.

So the MAXs will fly. Now, since there is no contract, the pilots can be asked to be released to strike. However, they could be ordered back to binding arbitration (where they are unlikely to get quite as good of a deal as they are looking for).

Now, there are upgrades required (fuel inerting) Southwest is avoiding, so this is *not* a cut and dry topic.

Lightsaber
 
INFINITI329
Posts: 2785
Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2012 12:53 am

Re: 737-MAX at Southwest

Mon Aug 22, 2016 6:10 am

Regardless if the WN gets the FAA to reverse course, WN pilots will not fly it until it is in black and white
 
User avatar
barney captain
Posts: 2477
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2001 5:47 pm

Re: 737-MAX at Southwest

Mon Aug 22, 2016 8:25 am

lightsaber wrote:
However, they could be ordered back to binding arbitration (where they are unlikely to get quite as good of a deal as they are looking for).

Lightsaber


That is incorrect. 'Binding' arbitration can only be agreed to by both parties. Something the pilots would never agree to.
 
737tanker
Posts: 407
Joined: Fri Dec 30, 2005 2:47 am

Re: 737-MAX at Southwest

Mon Aug 22, 2016 2:52 pm

Having a subset of aircraft was one issue the other was flying aircraft that aren't listed in the contract. Currently only the 737-300, 737-500, 737-700, and the 737-800 are the only aircraft listed in the pilot's contract. If for some reason WN decided that they wanted to bring back the 737-200 that couldn't be flown as it isn't listed in the contract, although WN flew it for over 30 years.
As for market rates that SWAPA is looking for it is narrow body aircraft, not rates for the MAX itself. However there are more issues than pay that have to be resolved before a new contract is agreed to, these other issues include work rules and retirement.
 
Longneck
Posts: 1
Joined: Mon Aug 22, 2016 3:09 pm

Re: 737-MAX at Southwest

Mon Aug 22, 2016 3:11 pm

This is the problem with unions...all pilots have the same skill and it is a commodity one at that...to extract above average value, they must skew the market by belonging to a union...
 
n471wn
Posts: 1885
Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2003 12:23 am

Re: 737-MAX at Southwest

Tue Aug 23, 2016 7:16 pm

lightsaber wrote:
The FAA balked at WN's first attempt at having 737 classics, NG, and MAX in the same pilot pool. As soon as a new pool had to be created, the WN pilots union has negotiating leverage. As of now, WN will receive -8 MAX and not have pilots to fly it.

In response, WN is retiring the 737 classics prior to MAX EIS. This way, they will be able to redo their pilot training to 737NG/MAX and there is no easy stop for the union to prevent the MAX's from flying.

http://crankyflier.com/2016/05/09/labor ... next-year/

So technically, WN doesn't have to approve the new contract to fly the MAXs.

Downside is Southwest is searching for good deal 737NGs (737-700 or 73Gs and 737-800 or 738s). For on one day, they plan to retire fifty (50) 737-300s! Most analysts think Southwest will be short on airframes and so will have to temporarily, until MAXs are delivered, downsize. For the Pilots union, this will be a sharp cut in flying hours.

So the MAXs will fly. Now, since there is no contract, the pilots can be asked to be released to strike. However, they could be ordered back to binding arbitration (where they are unlikely to get quite as good of a deal as they are looking for).

Now, there are upgrades required (fuel inerting) Southwest is avoiding, so this is *not* a cut and dry topic.

Lightsaber




Actually many of us believe that WN management will cut a deal with the pilots union to have dedicated pilots continue to fly the 300's longer as some of the "final fifty" are YOUNGER than the early 700's
 
737tanker
Posts: 407
Joined: Fri Dec 30, 2005 2:47 am

Re: 737-MAX at Southwest

Wed Aug 24, 2016 2:43 am

n471wn wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
The FAA balked at WN's first attempt at having 737 classics, NG, and MAX in the same pilot pool. As soon as a new pool had to be created, the WN pilots union has negotiating leverage. As of now, WN will receive -8 MAX and not have pilots to fly it.

In response, WN is retiring the 737 classics prior to MAX EIS. This way, they will be able to redo their pilot training to 737NG/MAX and there is no easy stop for the union to prevent the MAX's from flying.

http://crankyflier.com/2016/05/09/labor ... next-year/

So technically, WN doesn't have to approve the new contract to fly the MAXs.

Downside is Southwest is searching for good deal 737NGs (737-700 or 73Gs and 737-800 or 738s). For on one day, they plan to retire fifty (50) 737-300s! Most analysts think Southwest will be short on airframes and so will have to temporarily, until MAXs are delivered, downsize. For the Pilots union, this will be a sharp cut in flying hours.

So the MAXs will fly. Now, since there is no contract, the pilots can be asked to be released to strike. However, they could be ordered back to binding arbitration (where they are unlikely to get quite as good of a deal as they are looking for).

Now, there are upgrades required (fuel inerting) Southwest is avoiding, so this is *not* a cut and dry topic.

Lightsaber




Actually many of us believe that WN management will cut a deal with the pilots union to have dedicated pilots continue to fly the 300's longer as some of the "final fifty" are YOUNGER than the early 700's

There were only 20-25 -300s scheduled to fly past the date that WN is stopping all -300 flying and December 2017. WN was not going to fly any -300 after that date because starting January 2018 any -300 flying had to have the AD for the installation of the NGS system (all of the NGs currently have the NGS installed). WN management doesn't believe that it is cost effective to install the NGS on the -300s.
As for cutting a deal with the pilots union the only deal (after 4 years of negotiations) that the pilots will approve is a new contract!
 
User avatar
kitplane01
Topic Author
Posts: 2554
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2016 5:58 am

Re: 737-MAX at Southwest

Wed Aug 24, 2016 5:54 am

737tanker wrote:
Having a subset of aircraft was one issue the other was flying aircraft that aren't listed in the contract. Currently only the 737-300, 737-500, 737-700, and the 737-800 are the only aircraft listed in the pilot's contract.


lightsaber wrote:
In response, WN is retiring the 737 classics prior to MAX EIS. This way, they will be able to redo their pilot training to 737NG/MAX and there is no easy stop for the union to prevent the MAX's from flying.


These two statements cannot both be true.

I think what you are telling me is that the FAA will allow Southwest to have one group of pilots that fly both the MAX and the NG, the union believes it only has to fly only the specifically contract-listed types of 737s, and Southwest believes that pilots have to fly both NGs and MAXs as per the contract. Surely the contract language is clear on this point???
 
User avatar
kitplane01
Topic Author
Posts: 2554
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2016 5:58 am

Re: 737-MAX at Southwest

Wed Aug 24, 2016 5:56 am

737tanker wrote:
As for market rates that SWAPA is looking for it is narrow body aircraft, not rates for the MAX itself. However there are more issues than pay that have to be resolved before a new contract is agreed to, these other issues include work rules and retirement.


"The proposed contract would give a Southwest pilot with a 12-year service a pay of $249.82 per hour compared to $234.67 at American Airlines Group Inc. (NASDAQ:AAL) and $245.80 per hour at United Continental. In addition, under the proposed contract, a 12-year first-officer at Southwest would make $174.87 an hour in 2016 under the proposal, compared with $167.89 at United, $160.28 at American"


I'd be curious what the work rules issues are.

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos