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KTPAFlyer
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Should pax be required to give their name to report a concern

Wed Aug 24, 2016 3:24 pm

Hello A.net,

I read an Al-Jazeera article about 3 passengers on an Easyjet flight who were booted off due to concerns reported by another passenger, take a wild guess what it was.

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2016/08/u ... 50659.html

Anyway, this fear mongering has reached a fever pitch and airlines really have to stop these baseless accusations that "He had Arabic on his phone!"

This got me thinking: What if airlines stopped providing anonymity and required you to give your name, which would be verified in order to report a legitimate concern for safety. If you didn't, the concern would be ignored because you would have no reason to not give your name unless you are making it up on unwarranted grounds. That way, it would scare off potential troublemakers and idiots who feel that Arabic is somehow a sign of trouble. And if someone, did have a legitimate concern, then they have nothing to lose for being honest!

What do you think? Is it a good idea? All contributations appreciated, thank you.
 
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Tugger
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Re: Should pax be required to give their name to report a concern

Wed Aug 24, 2016 3:34 pm

I don't have a problem with that. In normal circumstances people have to give their name to file police reports if they want them acted upon officially. Why should this be any different.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
rrlopes
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Re: Should pax be required to give their name to report a concern

Wed Aug 24, 2016 5:02 pm

Tugger wrote:
I don't have a problem with that. In normal circumstances people have to give their name to file police reports if they want them acted upon officially. Why should this be any different.


Same here, I'm surprised to learn that it isn't the case, TBH...

*edited for correcting the quote
Last edited by rrlopes on Wed Aug 24, 2016 5:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
kabq737
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Re: Should pax be required to give their name to report a concern

Wed Aug 24, 2016 5:13 pm

I think it's a good idea. If someone is reporting something valid they shouldn't have any issues with giving their name. If they're reporting something that isn't valid then they can be held accountable.
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iamlucky13
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Re: Should pax be required to give their name to report a concern

Fri Aug 26, 2016 4:08 am

No. You don't want a passenger to be uncomfortable reporting a genuine concern for any reason. Naturally, people should report *serious* concerns regardless of discomfort about being identified, but it's a known fact at this point (well studied both in the criminal and medical fields) that many people do not if they know they will have to identify themselves, so you'd be making a deliberate trade off of reducing false positives by increasing the number of serious concerns that are not addressed.

What needs to happen instead is for airline employees and others in positions of dealing with safety concerns to treat such reports objectively, and those who train them to avoid promoting paranoia and instead focus on critical thinking. Remember, we're allegedly talking about seeing Arabic text on someone's phone. The person reporting it was not the only one who baldy over-reacted (assuming we've heard the full story).

Law enforcement officers should be held to an even higher standard of accountability. The authority to detain a person, even for a short period of time for questioning, can not be taken lightly or exercised capriciously. Since it also is one of the defining responsibilities of a law enforcement officer, there's also no excuse for not knowing that authority is limited to when there is a reasonable and articulable suspicion of criminal activity, which Arab text on a phone is not.

rrlopes wrote:
Tugger wrote:
I don't have a problem with that. In normal circumstances people have to give their name to file police reports if they want them acted upon officially. Why should this be any different.


Same here, I'm surprised to learn that it isn't the case, TBH...


I don't know what countries you're from, but in the US it is generally not required to identify yourself to report a concern or crime. It may, however, lend significant credibility to a report and assist officers if they have a reason to contact a witness again for more information. They usually have discretion whether or not to follow up on a tip.

Filing an official police report is a separate matter. I suspect whether or not a name is required to ensure a written record is created of your report is a matter of local policy.
 
winstonlegthigh
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Re: Should pax be required to give their name to report a concern

Fri Aug 26, 2016 4:18 am

Yes. Accountability.
Never has gravity been so uplifting.
 
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eurowings
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Re: Should pax be required to give their name to report a concern

Fri Aug 26, 2016 8:27 am

If onboard an aircraft, those reporting concerns can be identified by name from the passenger manifest and seat number so I'm not sure what relevance this has in this situation. In the UK there's a long and successful tradition of people being able to report things anonymously to authorities in certain circumstances (terrorism, vandalism, police appeals for information etc), but that's a whole different debate.
"Freddie Laker may be at peace with his Maker, but he is persona non grata with IATA."- HRH Duke of Edinburgh
 
kabq737
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Re: Should pax be required to give their name to report a concern

Fri Aug 26, 2016 2:38 pm

eurowings wrote:
If onboard an aircraft, those reporting concerns can be identified by name from the passenger manifest and seat number so I'm not sure what relevance this has in this situation. In the UK there's a long and successful tradition of people being able to report things anonymously to authorities in certain circumstances (terrorism, vandalism, police appeals for information etc), but that's a whole different debate.


Oh good point on the passenger manifest comment, however, how would you identify a passenger on an airline with open seating such as Southwest? Assuming there is a way maybe the question should be if a passenger falsely accuses someone and has no reasonable grounds for doing so should they be identified via the passenger manifest and penalized? If so what should the penalty be?
Been on: 320, 321, 333, 733, 73G, 738, 739, 744, 752, 763, 764, 772, 789, C208, CR7, CR9, BE20, MD83, MD88, MD90, E70, E75, E90, TRIM
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Polot
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Re: Should pax be required to give their name to report a concern

Fri Aug 26, 2016 2:47 pm

No, we shouldn't. The person who reports the concern is not the only one involved in the issue- they have no power beyond reporting.
Should we name and shame (and fire?) the gate agents?
The flight attendants?
The pilots?
The police officers?
Other airline employees who may be involved?

After all, in the end THEY were the ones who decided (or were part of the chain) to remove those 3 passengers, not the complaining passenger. They could have easily just told the complainer that everything is fine and if they were not comfortable they could voluntarily remove themselves from the flight.

So you are just potentially punishing the initial person who filed a complaint and publicly blaming them for all subsequent actions. That would just discourage people from lodging complaints that actually may have merit. If absolutely necessary the authorities/airline can easily figure out the identity of who made the complaint, we are not talking about a secure tip line that anyone from anywhere in the world can call here.
 
Aptivaboy
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Re: Should pax be required to give their name to report a concern

Fri Aug 26, 2016 5:50 pm

This:

No. You don't want a passenger to be uncomfortable reporting a genuine concern for any reason. Naturally, people should report *serious* concerns regardless of discomfort about being identified, but it's a known fact at this point (well studied both in the criminal and medical fields) that many people do not if they know they will have to identify themselves, so you'd be making a deliberate trade off of reducing false positives by increasing the number of serious concerns that are not addressed.


Absolutely correct. A passenger may have a concern, perhaps legitimate, perhaps not, and reports it to the crew. The crew then contacts security, who checks it out. Whether or not the issue was a real security concern or not, making the complainant identify themself would have a chilling effect. What if the airline was required to give the complainant's information to those whom security questioned: lawsuit time, anyone? Now, with that happening would anyone ever report a potential security issue?

"Let's see, I think that guy is doing X suspicious thing. I'd like to report it, but I also don't want to get sued, so I'll let it go and hope for the best."

Is that what we want?

As long as the complainant isn't acting capriciously, as long as there is a legitimate concern in his mind, then no, his personal information shouldn't have to be shared. And after all, its the responsibility of the crew and security to determine if the complaint or report has merit.
 
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KTPAFlyer
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Re: Should pax be required to give their name to report a concern

Fri Aug 26, 2016 7:53 pm

The point of removing anonymity is not to discourage a legitimate concern but to make people actually use their brain when considering to report someone. If someone is given anonymity, they can say literally whatever the hell they want with no repercussions. If people know they might be held accountable, they aren't going to report somebody for reading the Quran or wearing a hijab, but rather only if they hear someone explicitly talking about nefarious intentions or have noticed that someone has been in the bathroom longer than normal, etc. This is the only way to enforce using discretion instead of letting a rampant free for all. Accusing someone of doing something they haven't is worse than removing anonymity to filter out the real problems, and is literally going back to the days of the witch trails.
 
MaxxFlyer
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Re: Should pax be required to give their name to report a concern

Fri Aug 26, 2016 8:10 pm

Sadly these incidents will only become more frequent. There are extreme, right-wing factions in many western nations that are fanning the fires of hatred. It's obvious here in the U.S. I read news reports from the UK and Australia, same there. Xenophobia and Islamophobia are the new norms in today's world.
 
ODwyerPW
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Re: Should pax be required to give their name to report a concern

Fri Aug 26, 2016 8:25 pm

iamlucky13 wrote:
No. You don't want a passenger to be uncomfortable reporting a genuine concern for any reason. Naturally, people should report *serious* concerns regardless of discomfort about being identified, but it's a known fact at this point (well studied both in the criminal and medical fields) that many people do not if they know they will have to identify themselves, so you'd be making a deliberate trade off of reducing false positives by increasing the number of serious concerns that are not addressed.


Agree. Ultimately it is the airline that decides whether or not a passenger's concern is a credible threat or not.
learning never stops.
 
ODwyerPW
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Re: Should pax be required to give their name to report a concern

Fri Aug 26, 2016 8:30 pm

iamlucky13 wrote:
No. You don't want a passenger to be uncomfortable reporting a genuine concern for any reason. Naturally, people should report *serious* concerns regardless of discomfort about being identified, but it's a known fact at this point (well studied both in the criminal and medical fields) that many people do not if they know they will have to identify themselves, so you'd be making a deliberate trade off of reducing false positives by increasing the number of serious concerns that are not addressed.


Agree. We don't want to stifle the reporting of valid concerns. Ultimately it is the airline that decides whether or not a passenger's concern is a credible threat or not. Airline frontline staff (flight attendents/pilots) need to exercise good judgement and determine whether or not a concern is real, rather than just a manifestation of phobia and prejudice. In the end, it looks like this has become an issue that airlines throughout the industry need to address, through training, guidelines and policy.
learning never stops.
 
IPFreely
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Re: Should pax be required to give their name to report a concern

Fri Aug 26, 2016 8:46 pm

This is kind of a pointless question. It would be best if people gave their name when reporting something suspicious. But they cannot be forced to do so. And law enforcement is compelled to investigate a report whether anonymous or not. Just imagine if something was reported anonymously and then a terrorism incident occurred. No police chief or FBI agent is going to say "we did get a tip but since the person didn't give their name we ignored it".
 
32andBelow
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Re: Should pax be required to give their name to report a concern

Sat Aug 27, 2016 2:09 am

Absolutely not, this go against the very concept of aviation safety programs today. You want to know all the threats. It's up to the airline to risk assess each one and act accordingly, and in some(most) cases that action is taking no action, but only after proper risk assessment
 
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PacificBeach88
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Re: Should pax be required to give their name to report a concern

Sat Aug 27, 2016 2:50 am

Ideally, yes I would like their names published, but this is no longer 1975. Today, if someone gives their name, and city they are from, everyone can look them up on the internet / LinkedIn / Facebook / Similar and if the tide of public opinion goes against them, they can lose their job. Look, if someone's a racist SOB, then fine...out them and shame them. But as that women from a few years ago was making a joke about getting AIDS and flying to Africa....while she was flying to Africa....is ridiculous. She landed, and was fired for making a joke. Yes, a poor joke, but a joke nonetheless.
 
su184
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Re: Should pax be required to give their name to report a concern

Sat Aug 27, 2016 2:56 am

For the sake of analogy , How about a western looking passenger being asked Off a middle eastern airline because he/she was acting in an offensive way to the culture of the region, THAT would spark even more criticism from the western world about freedom while the other simply had Arabic on his phone and being treated that way.
 
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Tugger
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Re: Should pax be required to give their name to report a concern

Sat Aug 27, 2016 3:25 am

PacificBeach88 wrote:
Today, if someone gives their name, and city they are from, everyone can look them up on the internet

Why do you assume their name would be published? It is just providing their name to the authorities. That's it. If you honestly think something is wrong, someone is a danger then you will not have a problem reporting such.

I'm sorry... no actually, I am not sorry, you should provide your name if you are reporting someone you think is dangerous to an aircraft. If not then don't report them. I think most people here are just a afraid and want the freedom to report anyone they care to and are just concerned that they are wrong and don't want people, the authorities knowing it was them.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey

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