NichCage
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The problems with El Al

Fri Aug 26, 2016 3:17 am

El Al deals with many issues:

1) Cannot join an airline alliance (Star Alliance, SkyTeam, or Oneworld). SkyTeam is off the cards due to Saudi, while Oneworld has Royal Jordanian representing the Middle East. Star Alliance also see's no value in having El Al in Star, so the carrier has a hard time competing in the foreign market.

2) The competition: El Al faces a lot of competition and there international ops (outside of Europe) are limited. Turkish Airlines is one of the airlines that heavily competes with El Al. It means that El Al has a hard time competing internationally outside of Europe, meaning that Toronto, New York JFK, Newark, Boston, Los Angeles, Johannesburg, Beijing, Hong Kong, and Bangkok, Mumbai are the only intercontinental destinations. Airlines take away the market share needed for El Al.

3) Parking aircraft down on Sundays: Does El Al still park aircraft on Sunday? It's one of the biggest barriers the company has. No flights on the El Al network is daily, the largest is Bangkok with six weekly flights.

4) Airspace rules: The airline cannot fly over any Arab country (other than Egypt or Jordan) making Asia and Africa longer. Johannesburg is straight down from Tel Aviv, while Bangkok is a detour flying down the Red Sea. Beijing and Hong Kong are over Turkey which adds travel time.

These are some issues El Al faces. What does the future hold for El Al for expansion? New frequencies for existing intercontinental routes (daily flights to Toronto, New York JFK, Newark, Boston, Los Angeles, Johannesburg, Beijing, Hong Kong, Bangkok, Mumbai) while added flights to new destinations (such as Chicago, Miami, Delhi, Shanghai, etc) Will this ever happen in the future?

Finally, sorry for repeating myself, but does El Al still park its aircraft one day a week on Sunday? Why can't they just get rid of it if they still doing it? They are losing passengers and potential by doing so.
 
ltbewr
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Re: The probelms with El Al

Fri Aug 26, 2016 3:36 am

First of all, the 'parking' would be Friday night (sundown) to Saturday (Sundown) as well as certain Jewish holydays. Attempts to make any change to allow full ops on the Jewish Sabbath (as well as public transit, etc) is limited by demands by the minority ultra-Orthodox Jewish parties that other parties need to placate to have a majority government.
El Al does have limitations but it also has the advantage of being on of the safest and most strict as to anti-terrorism without molesting your body.
I don't think they need to serve everyone or everywhere. Israel is a relatively small country, tourist traffic can vary due to the security situation, other airlines may have much lower staffing costs so could offer better deals, so no, they don't have to get much bigger.
Yes, they have issues with alliances, but as noted that is minor to them as serve a different clientele.
 
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usdcaguy
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Re: The probelms with El Al

Fri Aug 26, 2016 4:22 am

Why hasn't El AL tried Philadelphia, Dallas or Houston nonstop? They might want to expand a bit here in the States. TLV has just a very small area for transit passengers and connections are pretty few and far between. They might benefit from building on that; connections to Turkey, West Africa, the Maldives, Sri Lanka and India are good possibilities, although Indian passengers do not seem happy transiting in Israel.
 
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Re: The probelms with El Al

Fri Aug 26, 2016 4:25 am

Sun D'Or do the flying for El Al on the Sabbath.
 
steveinbc
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Re: The probelms with El Al

Fri Aug 26, 2016 4:43 am

El Al is a unique airline that goes beyond simply economic benefit. It is the Israeli flag carrier and delivers a safe airline for those who live in Israel. It also reflects the cultural and religious values of the country in the same way that certain Arab airlines do too. Israel has only a very small population and there are multiple overflight restrictions that limit the most efficient flight paths. Additionally, El Al also provides additional security screening at many airports across the world that also diminishes its economic efficiency. So trying to suggest tha El Al is making economic errors is not taking into account the broader reason why El Al exists.
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Mortyman
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Re: The probelms with El Al

Fri Aug 26, 2016 4:52 am

5. Security:

El Al demands heavy security when flying into airports. Security far beyond any other airline apparently. When they wanted to start flights to OSL, they demanded among other things their own Israeli armed security personell at the airport at check in, wich was naturally denied. They did not start flights to OSL.
 
panamascot
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Re: The probelms with El Al

Fri Aug 26, 2016 5:42 am

I work for a major IT company and our tech division is based in Israel. Talking to a lot of the Israeli staff who visit the Uk and globe trot the globe feedback is mixed on EL AL. I was surprised most of the younger guys would choose a foreign carrier to travel (Lufthansa was probably top). Like most people main reasons were flexibility and reward programmes. Main gripes on not flying EL AL were other airlines have better service rather than safety. been to Israel a few times from the UK (usually BA) but tried EL AL last year. Overall it was ok. Security was thorough at Heathrow (although strangely I think some people think of this as a hinderance rather than a plus). Service and flight in a 777-200 was pretty good. Comparing with BA it was slightly better. It definitely beat the return flight in a BA A321 (they also have 777 + 787 dependant on schedule).
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Re: The probelms with El Al

Fri Aug 26, 2016 5:52 am

Their biggest problem is, that only a limited number of people are looking at Israel as a possible destination for their travels, and that a growing number of Israelis are getting fed up with the sub-standard hard- and soft products LY offers. They are lightyears behind the competition in both of those areas, not least because the concept of delivering world class service is alien to them, and to Israel in general. They're nice, hard working and innovative people, but service minded? Nope, that's not one of their peak competencies.

I travelled a lot to Israel on business in a previous life. Only once did I tempt faith by flying direct with LY and it was horrible. I knew it was going to be different, but when I was - for reasons that are utterly baffling - picked out for extra scrutiny at check-in departing from a large European city, my patience quickly wore thin. Took the idiot an hour to figure out that a lilly white Scandinavian going to Israel on business was, perhaps, not the biggest threat he'd face that day. Service onboard was poor, worse even than a loco carrier. My fellow passengers were loud, obnoxious, incredibly demanding and seemingly devoid of anything even resembling manners.

I went via either Zurich of Frankfurt for all subsequent travels. Yes, it added a stop and a couple of hours to the trip, but at least I got to keep my sanity.
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b747400erf
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Re: The probelms with El Al

Fri Aug 26, 2016 6:05 am

Mortyman wrote:
5. Security:

El Al demands heavy security when flying into airports. Security far beyond any other airline apparently. When they wanted to start flights to OSL, they demanded among other things their own Israeli armed security personell at the airport at check in, wich was naturally denied. They did not start flights to OSL.


Naturally denied? Thankfully LAX did not deny their request and many people's lives were saved.
 
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seabosdca
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Re: The probelms with El Al

Fri Aug 26, 2016 6:20 am

The hard product issues will be addressed over the next couple of years as 787s replace the outdated 767 and 747 fleets.

One issue for them has been a limited amount of equipment, some of it extremely cost-intensive (744), and no funds to buy more. With 16 787s coming, they will start to have a bit more network flexibility. They would do well to replace the 777s with another batch of 787s as well. An all-787 international fleet would work very well for them.
 
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CrimsonNL
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Re: The probelms with El Al

Fri Aug 26, 2016 6:27 am

I don't think RJ or SV are the problem with LY joining an alliance, rather the fact that they hardly contribute to anything. The international routes from TLV to major European cities are all operated by European airlines from the various alliances anyway, so how would LY contribute to an alliance? And I doubt that many people would go out of the way to fly say BKK-TLV-LHR while there are already numerous options available.

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atypical
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Re: The probelms with El Al

Fri Aug 26, 2016 6:31 am

El Al is one of those airlines I have tremendous respect for but do not know much about. So in that light I would like to understand the approach to the question. Is this a discussion of what El Al has identified as its weaknesses or is this from a customer/outsider perspective? Maybe a combination of both in certain respects. I also think the points here could indicate how El Al might evolve in the future but again that would be more likely from areas El Al has indicated rather than what individuals would like to see. Interesting topic.
 
Blankbarcode
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Re: The probelms with El Al

Fri Aug 26, 2016 6:48 am

steveinbc wrote:
El Al is a unique airline that goes beyond simply economic benefit. It is the Israeli flag carrier and delivers a safe airline for those who live in Israel. It also reflects the cultural and religious values of the country in the same way that certain Arab airlines do too. Israel has only a very small population and there are multiple overflight restrictions that limit the most efficient flight paths. Additionally, El Al also provides additional security screening at many airports across the world that also diminishes its economic efficiency. So trying to suggest tha El Al is making economic errors is not taking into account the broader reason why El Al exists.


Basically this. The carrier is government-owned/funded, so economics play a smaller role. With kosher meals, extra security, and other inclusions other airlines would see as a waste, the airline exists purely as a service to the people of Israel; probably the truest example of a flag carrier out there. It's quite an inspiring story, and they're quite a good airline on top of that.
 
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euroflyer
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Re: The probelms with El Al

Fri Aug 26, 2016 7:29 am

NichCage wrote:
4) Airspace rules: The airline cannot fly over any Arab country (other than Egypt or Jordan) making Asia and Africa longer. Johannesburg is straight down from Tel Aviv, while Bangkok is a detour flying down the Red Sea. Beijing and Hong Kong are over Turkey which adds travel time.
.


LY is allowed to overfly Morocco as well, yet I don't think any of their route come close to this country.
I don't think the ban is a real operational issue, there are very few eastbound flights, and pratically no regional flights as well. The impacts are minor.
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b747400erf
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Re: The probelms with El Al

Fri Aug 26, 2016 8:22 am

Blankbarcode wrote:
steveinbc wrote:
El Al is a unique airline that goes beyond simply economic benefit. It is the Israeli flag carrier and delivers a safe airline for those who live in Israel. It also reflects the cultural and religious values of the country in the same way that certain Arab airlines do too. Israel has only a very small population and there are multiple overflight restrictions that limit the most efficient flight paths. Additionally, El Al also provides additional security screening at many airports across the world that also diminishes its economic efficiency. So trying to suggest tha El Al is making economic errors is not taking into account the broader reason why El Al exists.


Basically this. The carrier is government-owned/funded, so economics play a smaller role. With kosher meals, extra security, and other inclusions other airlines would see as a waste, the airline exists purely as a service to the people of Israel; probably the truest example of a flag carrier out there. It's quite an inspiring story, and they're quite a good airline on top of that.

They also have to take the long way on routes to destinations like in Asia. https://flightaware.com/live/flight/ELY ... /VTBS/LLBG
 
LY777
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Re: The probelms with El Al

Fri Aug 26, 2016 9:25 am

There are no problems with LY: they have a unique way of doing their business
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klwright69
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Re: The probelms with El Al

Fri Aug 26, 2016 9:48 am

One of my best friends is a very conservative jew, but not orthodox. He went to Israel with his parents years ago. They were singled out for additional security screening. It didn't make any rational sense. He tells me he would take EL AL though whenever he goes back. I would like him to take United or Delta, but he insists it would be El Al.
 
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Re: The probelms with El Al

Fri Aug 26, 2016 10:35 am

NichCage wrote:
2) The competition: El Al faces a lot of competition and there international ops (outside of Europe) are limited. Turkish Airlines is one of the airlines that heavily competes with El Al. It means that El Al has a hard time competing internationally outside of Europe, meaning that Toronto, New York JFK, Newark, Boston, Los Angeles, Johannesburg, Beijing, Hong Kong, and Bangkok, Mumbai are the only intercontinental destinations. Airlines take away the market share needed for El Al..


The fact that Israel does not have relation with most Arab countries (and consequently their carriers do not fly there) probably helps El Al keeping some of those routes.

I would like to see how LY would compete in JNB, BKK or BOM if the ME3 were flying there. One would expect something similar in DOH-TLV or DXB-TLV with QR or EK to what Turkish makes to the West.
 
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Re: The probelms with El Al

Fri Aug 26, 2016 10:35 am

klwright69 wrote:
One of my best friends is a very conservative jew, but not orthodox. He went to Israel with his parents years ago. They were singled out for additional security screening. It didn't make any rational sense. He tells me he would take EL AL though whenever he goes back. I would like him to take United or Delta, but he insists it would be El Al.


Did they book the tickets very late? Maybe something about their attitude caused questions. Rational sense in security screening means you look at everyone and the most obvious "safe" person could be a trick. Like the Irish lady unknowingly carrying a bomb placed by her Palestinian boyfriend.
 
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Mortyman
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Re: The probelms with El Al

Fri Aug 26, 2016 10:43 am

b747400erf wrote:
Mortyman wrote:
5. Security:

El Al demands heavy security when flying into airports. Security far beyond any other airline apparently. When they wanted to start flights to OSL, they demanded among other things their own Israeli armed security personell at the airport at check in, wich was naturally denied. They did not start flights to OSL.


Naturally denied? Thankfully LAX did not deny their request and many people's lives were saved.


Norway does not allow anyone but Norwegians to do security on the airports. I'm not sure Norway would have been allowed to have it's own Norwegian armed securityguards doing check in and security onn LAX ?
 
Softaero
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Re: The probelms with El Al

Fri Aug 26, 2016 10:56 am

NichCage wrote:
2) The competition: El Al faces a lot of competition and there international ops (outside of Europe) are limited. Turkish Airlines is one of the airlines that heavily competes with El Al. It means that El Al has a hard time competing internationally outside of Europe, meaning that Toronto, New York JFK, Newark, Boston, Los Angeles, Johannesburg, Beijing, Hong Kong, and Bangkok, Mumbai are the only intercontinental destinations. Airlines take away the market share needed for El Al.


Must disagree with this point. El Al is shielded from ME3 competition because their countries do not recognize Israel. El Al suffers from much less competition than other airlines in the region. If they upgrade their hard product, and improve passenger experience at outstations, they would be able to compete better.
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b747400erf
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Re: The probelms with El Al

Fri Aug 26, 2016 11:46 am

Mortyman wrote:
b747400erf wrote:
Mortyman wrote:
5. Security:

El Al demands heavy security when flying into airports. Security far beyond any other airline apparently. When they wanted to start flights to OSL, they demanded among other things their own Israeli armed security personell at the airport at check in, wich was naturally denied. They did not start flights to OSL.


Naturally denied? Thankfully LAX did not deny their request and many people's lives were saved.


Norway does not allow anyone but Norwegians to do security on the airports. I'm not sure Norway would have been allowed to have it's own Norwegian armed securityguards doing check in and security onn LAX ?


For obvious reasons El Al feels they can protect their customers better than anyone else and multiple examples have proven them right.
 
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euroflyer
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Re: The probelms with El Al

Fri Aug 26, 2016 11:58 am

b747400erf wrote:
Mortyman wrote:
b747400erf wrote:

Naturally denied? Thankfully LAX did not deny their request and many people's lives were saved.


Norway does not allow anyone but Norwegians to do security on the airports. I'm not sure Norway would have been allowed to have it's own Norwegian armed securityguards doing check in and security onn LAX ?


For obvious reasons El Al feels they can protect their customers better than anyone else and multiple examples have proven them right.


Sure, with an incredible amount of infringement to law. These secondment security agents are known for acting like they're God.
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b747400erf
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Re: The probelms with El Al

Fri Aug 26, 2016 12:09 pm

euroflyer wrote:
b747400erf wrote:
Mortyman wrote:

Norway does not allow anyone but Norwegians to do security on the airports. I'm not sure Norway would have been allowed to have it's own Norwegian armed securityguards doing check in and security onn LAX ?


For obvious reasons El Al feels they can protect their customers better than anyone else and multiple examples have proven them right.


Sure, with an incredible amount of infringement to law. These secondment security agents are known for acting like they're God.


What laws do they break? Do you have documented evidence of that? Sounds like the same typical accusations against Jews from the same typical posters here.
 
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euroflyer
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Re: The probelms with El Al

Fri Aug 26, 2016 12:52 pm

b747400erf wrote:
euroflyer wrote:
b747400erf wrote:

For obvious reasons El Al feels they can protect their customers better than anyone else and multiple examples have proven them right.


Sure, with an incredible amount of infringement to law. These secondment security agents are known for acting like they're God.


What laws do they break? Do you have documented evidence of that? Sounds like the same typical accusations against Jews from the same typical posters here.


I frankly don't give a damn to know if those security agents are jewish or not (how do you even know?).
I myself have been witness of such behaviors both in London and Amsterdam. Those agents act like if they were on their country and are known to handle passengers with very rude manners. You can check on the newspaper, several pax complaining about that. If you're not Israeli and want to board ELY, you'd better prepare psychologically.
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ro1960
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Re: The probelms with El Al

Fri Aug 26, 2016 2:28 pm

Blankbarcode wrote:
Basically this. The carrier is government-owned/funded, so economics play a smaller role.


Actually this is no longer true (as I found this topic interesting I went on to read more about the airline). As of October 2014, El Al's major shareholders are Knafaim Holdings (36.30%), Ginspurg Group (9.75%) and Delek Group (7.99%). More than 43% are public.
http://www.elal.com/en/About-ELAL/About-ELAL/Investor-Relations/Pages/Shareholders.aspx

As for alliances LY has an agreement with AA to provide connections at JFK.
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Mortyman
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Re: The probelms with El Al

Fri Aug 26, 2016 3:11 pm

b747400erf wrote:
Mortyman wrote:
b747400erf wrote:

Naturally denied? Thankfully LAX did not deny their request and many people's lives were saved.


Norway does not allow anyone but Norwegians to do security on the airports. I'm not sure Norway would have been allowed to have it's own Norwegian armed securityguards doing check in and security onn LAX ?


For obvious reasons El Al feels they can protect their customers better than anyone else and multiple examples have proven them right.


It's irrelevant. The airline will have to accept the laws and the regulations of the country it wants to fly to.
 
klakzky123
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Re: The probelms with El Al

Fri Aug 26, 2016 4:08 pm

El Al's overall product just isn't up to par in comparison to the other airlines that fly to Tel Aviv. Most of the time they aren't price competitive either. I've always had better luck in terms of quality and pricing with either BA or LH. I haven't been in several years so I imagine TK is a good option nowadays as well.

Everyone is getting caught up in their airspace restrictions or security but the bottom line is that the actual product itself and the price of that product aren't competitive. So they do quite poorly among business travelers. A lot of Israelis I used to work with flew on European carriers when the traveled. I dont think I met anyone who flew on El Al.
 
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Re: The probelms with El Al

Fri Aug 26, 2016 7:26 pm

euroflyer wrote:
b747400erf wrote:
euroflyer wrote:

Sure, with an incredible amount of infringement to law. These secondment security agents are known for acting like they're God.


What laws do they break? Do you have documented evidence of that? Sounds like the same typical accusations against Jews from the same typical posters here.


I frankly don't give a damn to know if those security agents are jewish or not (how do you even know?).
I myself have been witness of such behaviors both in London and Amsterdam. Those agents act like if they were on their country and are known to handle passengers with very rude manners. You can check on the newspaper, several pax complaining about that. If you're not Israeli and want to board ELY, you'd better prepare psychologically.


the ELAL security teams intentionally act like A**holes to draw a reaction. it is part of their interview protocol. The less you react to their intrusive questioning, the more they will up the level of inquisition. They are not singling you out, it is intentional. Most Israelis and frequent travelers are used to it.

Because it works.
 
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Re: The problems with El Al

Fri Aug 26, 2016 9:48 pm

Nobody is going to willingly choose to fly through TLV under the immediate assumption you're a criminal when you could walk through AUH, DXB, DOH, SIN.....
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Re: The probelms with El Al

Fri Aug 26, 2016 11:09 pm

euroflyer wrote:
I frankly don't give a damn to know if those security agents are jewish or not (how do you even know?).
I myself have been witness of such behaviors both in London and Amsterdam. Those agents act like if they were on their country and are known to handle passengers with very rude manners. You can check on the newspaper, several pax complaining about that. If you're not Israeli and want to board ELY, you'd better prepare psychologically.

This is crap.

Israeli security agents are just the best in the world. They ask very strange questions, and yes, if you walk into it as if it was another talk with your bank advisor, then some questions may be so weird that some people will regards them rude.

Just tell the truth. The exact truth, with no shortcuts. Their questions are designed and scientifically matched to bring you off foot if you have something to hide. Therefore it often seems like they didn't even hear your answers. And they probably didn't. But you can be damned sure that your body language was monitored very carefully.

They do a very needed job and they do it very well.
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Re: The probelms with El Al

Fri Aug 26, 2016 11:26 pm

b747400erf wrote:
euroflyer wrote:
b747400erf wrote:

For obvious reasons El Al feels they can protect their customers better than anyone else and multiple examples have proven them right.


Sure, with an incredible amount of infringement to law. These secondment security agents are known for acting like they're God.


What laws do they break? Do you have documented evidence of that? Sounds like the same typical accusations against Jews from the same typical posters here.


I agree with you 100%. Israel is in a unique situation because so many other nations would like to see it wiped off the face of the earth. That's not an exaggeration. Therefore, EL AL requires extra security measures. If a country refuses to allow EL AL to handle their own security, then I think that is a country that El Al would be better off not flying to anyway. I don't think a country like Norway would be a good destination anyway for them. Too much competition.
 
coolian2
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Re: The problems with El Al

Fri Aug 26, 2016 11:42 pm

A small fistful of idiots hate Israel for ideological reasons.

More people have issues with Israel for reasons they've caused for themselves.
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Re: The probelms with El Al

Fri Aug 26, 2016 11:58 pm

Mortyman wrote:
b747400erf wrote:
Mortyman wrote:

Norway does not allow anyone but Norwegians to do security on the airports. I'm not sure Norway would have been allowed to have it's own Norwegian armed securityguards doing check in and security onn LAX ?


For obvious reasons El Al feels they can protect their customers better than anyone else and multiple examples have proven them right.


It's irrelevant. The airline will have to accept the laws and the regulations of the country it wants to fly to.


Obviously its not irrelevant as many countries allow El Al security at their airports. And for good reason.
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Re: The problems with El Al

Fri Aug 26, 2016 11:58 pm

LY wisely chose an enhanced security presence at every airport they fly to after a hijacking attempt in the early 70's. All of their flight attendants are veterans of the Israeli armed forces so I would suggest not messing with them. I have had the opportunity to chat with some of their onboard security personnel and they are definitely a force to be reckoned with. For a tiny country born out of the Holocaust they would like nothing better to have good relations with their neighbors but they live in a tough neighborhood. It is their choice not to operate on the Sabbath. Formerly they were affiliated with North American Airlines for connections in NYC to the west coast. They exist quite happily on their own without any benefit of an alliance.
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Mortyman
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Re: The probelms with El Al

Sat Aug 27, 2016 1:02 am

777klm wrote:
Mortyman wrote:
b747400erf wrote:

For obvious reasons El Al feels they can protect their customers better than anyone else and multiple examples have proven them right.


It's irrelevant. The airline will have to accept the laws and the regulations of the country it wants to fly to.


Obviously its not irrelevant as many countries allow El Al security at their airports. And for good reason.


I honestly don't understand why some people on the forum seems to be hitting on me. I simply added another pojnt to the list of obsticals that might be a problem for El Al on airports. Not all airports and countries are prepared to go to the lengts that other airports / countries do for El Al. Like it or not, but it's up to the respective countries to the decide this. For some countries it might be natural to do, for others not so much.
 
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Re: The probelms with El Al

Sat Aug 27, 2016 4:35 am

euroflyer wrote:
b747400erf wrote:
euroflyer wrote:

Sure, with an incredible amount of infringement to law. These secondment security agents are known for acting like they're God.


What laws do they break? Do you have documented evidence of that? Sounds like the same typical accusations against Jews from the same typical posters here.


I frankly don't give a damn to know if those security agents are jewish or not (how do you even know?).
I myself have been witness of such behaviors both in London and Amsterdam. Those agents act like if they were on their country and are known to handle passengers with very rude manners. You can check on the newspaper, several pax complaining about that. If you're not Israeli and want to board ELY, you'd better prepare psychologically.


So no, you do not have documented evidence, just your word. And what does the religion of the security agents have to do with this? You see El Al as the flag carrier of Israel, a country you do not like. Don't tell me to go look at newspapers, I asked YOU for documented evidence. And you can provide none. Typical.
 
Qantas16
Posts: 698
Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2016 3:51 am

Re: The probelms with El Al

Sat Aug 27, 2016 7:02 am

b747400erf wrote:
euroflyer wrote:
b747400erf wrote:

What laws do they break? Do you have documented evidence of that? Sounds like the same typical accusations against Jews from the same typical posters here.


I frankly don't give a damn to know if those security agents are jewish or not (how do you even know?).
I myself have been witness of such behaviors both in London and Amsterdam. Those agents act like if they were on their country and are known to handle passengers with very rude manners. You can check on the newspaper, several pax complaining about that. If you're not Israeli and want to board ELY, you'd better prepare psychologically.


So no, you do not have documented evidence, just your word. And what does the religion of the security agents have to do with this? You see El Al as the flag carrier of Israel, a country you do not like. Don't tell me to go look at newspapers, I asked YOU for documented evidence. And you can provide none. Typical.


You were the one that accused them of making "accusations against Jews" when they hadn't mentioned religion. Then they called you out for it... and now you're trying to make it sound like they are anti-semitic?!?! You just want to be able to brandish someone as anti-semitic instead of actually discussing the issue.
 
usflyer123
Posts: 567
Joined: Thu May 26, 2016 6:21 pm

Re: The problems with El Al

Sat Aug 27, 2016 9:14 pm

ive flew to israel two times to visit a friend, one time with LY. to be honest, you do feel safe and sound flying with them and they are working hard in order for pax to feel that way, but still its a big hassle. they question you for hours(yeah, im not jewish) and even though its a good airline overall with good service and very nice staff, its better to save the headache and fly another carrier.
for most people the sky is the limit. for those who love aviation, the sky is home...
 
DDR
Posts: 1632
Joined: Sat Sep 28, 2013 11:09 pm

Re: The probelms with El Al

Sat Aug 27, 2016 9:50 pm

Mortyman wrote:
777klm wrote:
Mortyman wrote:

It's irrelevant. The airline will have to accept the laws and the regulations of the country it wants to fly to.


Obviously its not irrelevant as many countries allow El Al security at their airports. And for good reason.


I honestly don't understand why some people on the forum seems to be hitting on me. I simply added another pojnt to the list of obsticals that might be a problem for El Al on airports. Not all airports and countries are prepared to go to the lengts that other airports / countries do for El Al. Like it or not, but it's up to the respective countries to the decide this. For some countries it might be natural to do, for others not so much.


Mortyman I certainly hope you don't think I was hitting on you. You are allowed to have your point of view and it is just as important as any one else's post. While I may not agree with you on everything, it's nice to read your view points.
 
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TWA772LR
Posts: 6831
Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2011 6:12 am

Re: The problems with El Al

Sat Aug 27, 2016 9:59 pm

Not every airline needs to have a fleet of 600+ aircraft and needs to be in an alliance. El Al fills the niche of Israels national airline, and knows it doesn't need to cater to transiting traffic. LY does a great job of flying to Israel, it doesn't need to do anything else unless there is a need in the market for it to grow.
When wasn't America great?


The thoughts and opinions shared under this username are mine and are not influenced by my employer.
 
ChinaClipper40
Posts: 202
Joined: Wed Aug 02, 2006 8:23 am

Re: The problems with El Al

Mon Aug 29, 2016 1:06 pm

Israeli security agents are just the best in the world. They ask very strange questions, and yes, if you walk into it as if it was another talk with your bank advisor, then some questions may be so weird that some people will regards them rude.

Just tell the truth. The exact truth, with no shortcuts. Their questions are designed and scientifically matched to bring you off foot if you have something to hide. Therefore it often seems like they didn't even hear your answers. And they probably didn't. But you can be damned sure that your body language was monitored very carefully.

They do a very needed job and they do it very well.

Sorry. El Al's security agents are little better than thugs and goons. In 2010, they strip-searched a female American university professor (Professor Heather Bradshaw) - in the presence of MALE gate personnel, as she was boarding a flight to TLV from the UK (where she had been giving a series of lectures at the University of Cambridge). She had been in Israel many times before, and was traveling on this specific occasion because she had been invited to lecture at a research symposium - honoring Professor Raphael Mechoulam, one of Israel's greatest medical research scientists - by the Hebrew University of Jerusalem and the Israel Academy of Sciences. She had the letters of invitation on her. She had a smart-phone with a long string of emails back and forth from her university office in the U.S. and the symposium organizers in Israel. She had a long and documented history of research collaborations with Israeli medical research scientists. Her passport showed at least 4 previous trips to Israel for medical research collaborations with some of Israel's leading research scientists. After strip-searching her in the presence of MALE (you got that, boychik? MALE) El Al gate personnel and brutalizing her for more than a full hour, El Al confiscated all of her personal belongings except for her passport and 3 credit cards. El Al even kept her cash. She was so traumatized that she arrived in Israel in tears. El Al refused to return her personal belongings for several days - forcing her Israeli hosts to purchase clothing for her and subsidize her with their own cash. Her Israeli hosts at the Hebrew University and the Israel Academy of Sciences were so outraged by El Al's treatment of her that they filed formal complaints against El Al with the airline and with the Israeli government. To ice the cake, El Al refused to apologize. What laws were broken? Firstly, Jewish religious law, which prohibits exposing a naked female body to unknown men (go read some Torah and Talmud, since you seem never to have done so). Secondly, British law, which prohibits sexual assault and theft. You want documentation of this outrage? Okay, go read Haaretz's article ("American Professor Invited to Israel Humiliated by El Al Security Personnel") on the incident (Haaretz, 31 October 2010). El Al's security agents are an affront to decency and morality.

China Clipper 40
 
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scbriml
Posts: 17474
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

Re: The probelms with El Al

Mon Aug 29, 2016 1:18 pm

b747400erf wrote:
Sounds like the same typical accusations against Jews from the same typical posters here.


You do realise that criticising Israel, the Israeli government, Israeli policies or, in this case, El Al, doesn't make one an anti-semite. :roll:
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
klakzky123
Posts: 663
Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2016 4:05 am

Re: The problems with El Al

Mon Aug 29, 2016 3:27 pm

TWA772LR wrote:
Not every airline needs to have a fleet of 600+ aircraft and needs to be in an alliance. El Al fills the niche of Israels national airline, and knows it doesn't need to cater to transiting traffic. LY does a great job of flying to Israel, it doesn't need to do anything else unless there is a need in the market for it to grow.


This is more or less the truth. El Al is profitable and serves a niche that they have a strong hold on. They primarily fly Israelis and they are quite clear that you're paying for enhanced safety (even if it comes at the expense of the actual quality of the product on board). Foreigners and corporate travelers generally don't fly on El Al but they're making due without that group and frankly they wouldn't be able to get away with their security at the airport if they flew lots of foreigners as those passengers would have less tolerance for that stuff.

It's fair to criticize the harshness of their security policy. There have been some horror stories posted in the news before and its perfectly reasonable to criticize El Al for those incidents. There's nothing anti-semetic about it. I don't like their policies and in particular I feel like Eastern Europeans get treated the worst when it comes to these screenings but El Al is an airline for Israelis and by Israelis. If you don't care for their policies, you should probably just fly with someone else and avoid the headache of the airport screening.

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