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barney captain
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WN Engine Damage/Cowl Separation In Flight MSY-MCO

Sat Aug 27, 2016 5:27 pm

This is literally all I know, other than the a/c is safely on the ground in PNS (I think). All pax and crew are safe. Great job by the crew. I don't know flt number or city pairs. If anyone has any additional info, please share.

**UPDATE WN 3472 MSY-MCO diverted to PNS**

Image



Image

Image
Last edited by barney captain on Sat Aug 27, 2016 7:13 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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mikelive
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Re: WN Uncontained Engine Failure

Sat Aug 27, 2016 5:29 pm

That's absolutely amazing!!!

Can't wait to read that analysis later.
 
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Web500sjc
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Re: WN Uncontained Engine Failure

Sat Aug 27, 2016 5:30 pm

wow, the entire Fan is torn off....what are the silver panels around the engine core, those can't be the reversers deployed?


edit:

never mind, the fan can be see in the second photo, so it looks like only the forward cowl has detached itself.

edit:

I wonder what would cause that area to blow off, there shouldn't be much machinery up there, and you can see that the cowl detached itself inward and upward. Hitting the wing leading edge root and then scoring the fuselage forward of the emergency exit.
Last edited by Web500sjc on Sat Aug 27, 2016 5:34 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: WN Uncontained Engine Failure

Sat Aug 27, 2016 5:31 pm

Amazing! Thanks for posting, barney captain!
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DLX737200
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Re: WN Uncontained Engine Failure

Sat Aug 27, 2016 5:38 pm

Just guessing... SWA 3472 MSY-MCO diverted to PNS

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/SWA ... /KMSY/KMCO
 
DLX737200
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Re: WN Uncontained Engine Failure

Sat Aug 27, 2016 5:42 pm

DLX737200 wrote:
Just guessing... SWA 3472 MSY-MCO diverted to PNS

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/SWA ... /KMSY/KMCO


And that would be N773SA if it was indeed SWA 3472
 
StTim
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Re: WN Uncontained Engine Failure

Sat Aug 27, 2016 5:42 pm

Holy cow - that is some failure. Well done to get it on the ground.
 
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Re: WN Uncontained Engine Failure

Sat Aug 27, 2016 5:47 pm

Web500sjc wrote:
it looks like only the forward cowl has detached itself.


One online resource lists those components as the "nose lip" i.e. the metallic band we usually see on the front of a CFM56, and the "inlet".

Another refers to the two together as the "inlet cowl".

Web500sjc wrote:
I wonder what would cause that area to blow off, there shouldn't be much machinery up there, and you can see that the cowl detached itself inward and upward. Hitting the wing leading edge root and then scoring the fuselage forward of the emergency exit.


Yes, the fan looks to be intact, so it would seem the cowl itself detached...
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barney captain
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Re: WN Uncontained Engine Failure

Sat Aug 27, 2016 5:51 pm

Revelation wrote:
Web500sjc wrote:
it looks like only the forward cowl has detached itself.


One online resource lists those components as the "nose lip" i.e. the metallic band we usually see on the front of a CFM56, and the "inlet".

Another refers to the two together as the "inlet cowl".

Web500sjc wrote:
I wonder what would cause that area to blow off, there shouldn't be much machinery up there, and you can see that the cowl detached itself inward and upward. Hitting the wing leading edge root and then scoring the fuselage forward of the emergency exit.


Yes, the fan looks to be intact, so it would seem the cowl itself detached...



Agreed. Initial reports (and pics) indicated uncontained engine failure, but I think you guys are correct about it being the cowl.

Odd still, a cowl separation?


Thread title changed.....
Last edited by barney captain on Sat Aug 27, 2016 5:58 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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rfields5421
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Re: WN Uncontained Engine Failure

Sat Aug 27, 2016 5:53 pm

Nothing in the pictures looks like a failure in the engine.

Just the forward cowl/ nose lip coming off. About similar to the hood coming loose and breaking off a car on the highway.

Certainly an interesting, and unusual event. And justifiable reason to get on the ground with a diversion.
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INFINITI329
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Re: WN Uncontained Engine Failure

Sat Aug 27, 2016 6:01 pm

I wonder if PNS has the infastrcture/equipment to support an engine change. If not all required equipment would have to trucked in from either ATL or MCO
 
barney captain
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Re: WN Uncontained Engine Failure

Sat Aug 27, 2016 6:05 pm

rfields5421 wrote:
Nothing in the pictures looks like a failure in the engine.

Just the forward cowl/ nose lip coming off. About similar to the hood coming loose and breaking off a car on the highway.

Certainly an interesting, and unusual event. And justifiable reason to get on the ground with a diversion.


Actually -

Looking at this "before" pic of N773SA and you can see that everything up until the "U" in "Southwest.Com" is missing. It wasn't just the cowl that separated - it took out a big chunk of the fan shroud.

Image
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DLX737200
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Re: WN Cowl Separation In Flight MSY-MCO

Sat Aug 27, 2016 6:06 pm

A few more photos off the Southwest Facebook Page. and I think I'm wrong about the tail number.

Image
Image
Image
 
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DL_Mech
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Re: WN Cowl Separation In Flight MSY-MCO

Sat Aug 27, 2016 6:06 pm

I am wondering about the two loose latches up top. I presume that the oil service door and pylon cap door were blown open when the cowling left the a/c.
This plane is built to withstand anything... except a bad pilot.
 
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Re: WN Uncontained Engine Failure

Sat Aug 27, 2016 6:07 pm

INFINITI329 wrote:
I wonder if PNS has the infastrcture/equipment to support an engine change. If not all required equipment would have to trucked in from either ATL or MCO


It's going to require more than just an engine change considering the dent in the wing and fuselage.
 
DLX737200
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Re: WN Uncontained Engine Failure

Sat Aug 27, 2016 6:08 pm

DLX737200 wrote:
DLX737200 wrote:
Just guessing... SWA 3472 MSY-MCO diverted to PNS

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/SWA ... /KMSY/KMCO


And that would be N773SA if it was indeed SWA 3472


Correction:

N766SW is the tail
 
Okie
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Re: WN Cowl Separation In Flight MSY-MCO

Sat Aug 27, 2016 6:09 pm

I just would not normally going to consider that the inlet just failed without some precursor event.

Either previous damage to the inlet (bird strike/jetway rash), a compressor surge or unbalanced engine event.

You would think that the inlet under most circumstances the inlet would normally be under relatively equal compression loads from the airflow.

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Re: WN Uncontained Engine Failure

Sat Aug 27, 2016 6:11 pm

ericm2031 wrote:
INFINITI329 wrote:
I wonder if PNS has the infastrcture/equipment to support an engine change. If not all required equipment would have to trucked in from either ATL or MCO


It's going to require more than just an engine change considering the dent in the wing and fuselage.


In particular, it's going to require the seat cushions to be changed for the seat(s) next to where the fuse dent is! :-)
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Web500sjc
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Re: WN Uncontained Engine Failure

Sat Aug 27, 2016 6:19 pm

ericm2031 wrote:

It's going to require more than just an engine change considering the dent in the wing and fuselage.

Also the left hand horizontal stabilizer got dented.

With this much damage it must be a write off. :roll:


back on topic, the total damage is one engine, wing root damage, fuselage puncture, horizontal stab dent, and all new oxygen generators for the passengers.

I wonder why all those latches on top and the oil door are open, also aren't engine components supposed to fall in a manner to avoid damaging the rest of the airplane?
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OMP777X
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Re: WN Cowl Separation In Flight MSY-MCO

Sat Aug 27, 2016 6:23 pm

The WSJ reported that the damage resulted in depressurization of the aircraft.

That plane sure took a beating from itself.

"Photos taken aboard the flight showed the Boeing 737-700’s engine inlet completely torn away, revealing extensive structural damage to the engine nacelle that hangs underneath the wing. The spokesman said the failure caused a depressurization of the cabin. According to tracking data from FlightAware, the 737 was flying around 30,700 feet and climbing before it began descending around 9:23 a.m. CDT."
http://www.wsj.com/articles/southwest-a ... 1472320957

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FlyGuyDEN
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Re: WN Cowl Separation In Flight MSY-MCO

Sat Aug 27, 2016 6:25 pm

ATC recordings?
 
Gatorman96
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Re: WN Cowl Separation In Flight MSY-MCO

Sat Aug 27, 2016 6:36 pm

DLX737200 wrote:
A few more photos off the Southwest Facebook Page. and I think I'm wrong about the tail number.

Image
Image
Image


Also appears to be damage to the vertical stab and the winglet as well
 
m007j
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Re: WN Uncontained Engine Failure

Sat Aug 27, 2016 6:56 pm

DLX737200 wrote:
DLX737200 wrote:
Just guessing... SWA 3472 MSY-MCO diverted to PNS

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/SWA ... /KMSY/KMCO


And that would be N773SA if it was indeed SWA 3472




Looks like from the picture it's N766SW. Kudos to the crew!
https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N766SW
 
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Re: WN Cowl Separation In Flight MSY-MCO

Sat Aug 27, 2016 6:58 pm

DLX737200 wrote:
Image


Thanks for the photos, DLX737200!

I do wonder about the dents in the fuselage. Is this just the cowl or other parts departing, and hitting the fuselage on its way? Or might we be looking at a more serious event, where engine parts departed at high speed and hit the fuselage? I'm kind of wondering if cowl/inlet parts can hit the fuselage in this manner while the aircraft flies at high speed.

Thoughts?
 
barney captain
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Re: WN Cowl Separation In Flight MSY-MCO

Sat Aug 27, 2016 7:15 pm

AirlineCritic wrote:
DLX737200 wrote:
Image


Thanks for the photos, DLX737200!

I do wonder about the dents in the fuselage. Is this just the cowl or other parts departing, and hitting the fuselage on its way? Or might we be looking at a more serious event, where engine parts departed at high speed and hit the fuselage? I'm kind of wondering if cowl/inlet parts can hit the fuselage in this manner while the aircraft flies at high speed.

Thoughts?


Good observation - something departed with enough force to puncture the fuselage and cause a loss of pressure.
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Re: WN Engine Damage/Cowl Separation In Flight MSY-MCO

Sat Aug 27, 2016 7:29 pm

Just spit-balling here, but I wonder if this couldn't be a pneumatic over-pressure event.

The blown open service doors indicative of such an event.

It's clearly an inlet cowl separation, but what if it was from an internal event (over-pressure of the inlet TAI system) vs. an external event, that caused the cowl to fail in a localized area and then aerodynamic forces took over and tore the inlet apart and off the airframe. Separation in stages can easily cause the widespread damage we see.

Now, in my almost 30 years in the industry, I've never quite seen an inlet fail quite so bad.
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Beatyair
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Re: WN Engine Damage/Cowl Separation In Flight MSY-MCO

Sat Aug 27, 2016 7:54 pm

Where they over a populated area? Gravity will put this in someone's livingroom
 
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Re: WN Cowl Separation In Flight MSY-MCO

Sat Aug 27, 2016 8:02 pm

FlyGuyDEN wrote:
ATC recordings?


I listened to it on LiveATC. You can hear the flight deck talking through the O2 mask during part of the recording.
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FlyGuyDEN
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Re: WN Cowl Separation In Flight MSY-MCO

Sat Aug 27, 2016 8:19 pm

jlbmedia wrote:
FlyGuyDEN wrote:
ATC recordings?


I listened to it on LiveATC. You can hear the flight deck talking through the O2 mask during part of the recording.



Can you post a link?!
Last edited by FlyGuyDEN on Sat Aug 27, 2016 9:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
rugeley123
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Re: WN Engine Damage/Cowl Separation In Flight MSY-MCO

Sat Aug 27, 2016 8:45 pm

I don't think I've seen an engine failure quite like that. I take it the fuselarge repair may be difficult but I'm surprised, and really glad that no one as far as I'm aware was injured.
 
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Re: WN Engine Damage/Cowl Separation In Flight MSY-MCO

Sat Aug 27, 2016 8:55 pm

Beatyair wrote:
Where they over a populated area? Gravity will put this in someone's livingroom


Given the routing MSY-MCO, they were likely over the Gulf when this failure occurred. PNS would have been the closest airport with WN service to divert to. Big story of the day here in NOLA. Not sure if WN will repair or write off this plane given the damage to fuselage, wing, and engine nacelle. Glad there were no injuries, and they were able to get on the ground quickly.

Getting a membership to post is free now.


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Jerseyguy
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Re: WN Engine Damage/Cowl Separation In Flight MSY-MCO

Sat Aug 27, 2016 9:13 pm

Beatyair wrote:
Where they over a populated area? Gravity will put this in someone's livingroom


Nope, if Flight Aware's coordinates are to be believed they were over the Gulf of Mexico approximately 10.5 miles south of Pascagoula
Mississippi and 3 miles SSW of an uninhabited national park called Horn Island.

LiveATC has it in their interesting recordings archive
http://www.liveatc.net/forums/index.php ... ttach=8999
 
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Re: WN Engine Damage/Cowl Separation In Flight MSY-MCO

Sat Aug 27, 2016 9:26 pm

NolaMD88fan
Not sure if WN will repair or write off this plane given the damage to fuselage, wing, and engine nacelle.

This is very repairable. The engine inlet cowl installs with a ring of bolts around the fan case. The fan cowls (just behind the inlet) are easy replacements. I'm assuming the engine ingested debris and may likely be replaced based on borescope and visual inspections. The stab L/E can be replaced or repaired. The two fuselage damages look to be the most difficult repairs. If what we see in the pictures is the totality of the damage, it could be back in the air in a week to ten days.
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Re: WN Engine Damage/Cowl Separation In Flight MSY-MCO

Sat Aug 27, 2016 10:08 pm

B757Forever wrote:
NolaMD88fan
Not sure if WN will repair or write off this plane given the damage to fuselage, wing, and engine nacelle.

This is very repairable. The engine inlet cowl installs with a ring of bolts around the fan case. The fan cowls (just behind the inlet) are easy replacements. I'm assuming the engine ingested debris and may likely be replaced based on borescope and visual inspections. The stab L/E can be replaced or repaired. The two fuselage damages look to be the most difficult repairs. If what we see in the pictures is the totality of the damage, it could be back in the air in a week to ten days.


Yeah, they'll probably swap out the whole pod from the pylon down. The rest is pretty much just sheet metal work.
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qwerty
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Re: WN Engine Damage/Cowl Separation In Flight MSY-MCO

Sat Aug 27, 2016 10:46 pm

Jerseyguy wrote:

LiveATC has it in their interesting recordings archive
http://www.liveatc.net/forums/index.php ... ttach=8999



Thanks. Worth a listen. Stuck mic gives more indication or pilots' actions as they run APU start checklist.

Controllers and pilots handled this wonderfully. Nice work boys and girls.
 
LightningZ71
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Re: WN Engine Damage/Cowl Separation In Flight MSY-MCO

Sat Aug 27, 2016 11:10 pm

Hello all! First time poster, long time lurker.

Information from a few other sources indicates the following:

2 other pilots have stated that they had to use anti-ice around the same time as this flight while leaving MSY.

A mechanic has reported that the cowl inlet anti ice system uses bleed air for that frame and engine.

The speculation is that, for whatever reason, the bleed air rapidly overpressurized the inlet cowl, causing it to initiate a rapid, unscheduled disassembly. This explains the extra force needed to launch a piece of it with sufficient force to hole the fuselage above the wing.

This is all speculation at this point and I am not trying to sell this as the only explanation. I don't know the accuracy of the information on the anti ice systems provided here.
 
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Re: WN Engine Damage/Cowl Separation In Flight MSY-MCO

Sat Aug 27, 2016 11:30 pm

 
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fr8mech
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Re: WN Engine Damage/Cowl Separation In Flight MSY-MCO

Sun Aug 28, 2016 12:54 am

I'm not going to bother with quoting particular statements, because I'm on an iPad and it's a pain in the butt to do so.

This aircraft will not be written off. The repairs and replacement look pretty straight forward.

The engine, the fan cowls and, possibly, the thrust reverser a will be replaced.

The fuselage appears to be a straight foward repair. I can't tell if a frame is involved, but given the size, I suspect at least one frame. No windows, though.

The leading edge damage is a replacement with some repair to the underlying structure. The vertical stab can be repaired or the leading edge replaced. I suspect they'll put a temporary patch on it and perform a permanent repair or replacement at a later date.

I assume the winglet can be replaced.

Of course, this assessment is based strictly on pictures and experience. And, experience tells me that there can easily be more damage that is not readily visible in the pictures. But, I don't see anything that suggests a write-off. Not even close.

I suspect the engine is windmilling. You can see the indivual blades and the rotor appears intact. Which, also tells me that the engine itself, probably, did not fail and cause this problem. If the engine caused this, it would have had to happen from the fan aft. The fan looks fine.
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Okie
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Re: WN Engine Damage/Cowl Separation In Flight MSY-MCO

Sun Aug 28, 2016 1:30 am

fr8mech wrote:
I suspect the engine is windmilling. You can see the indivual blades and the rotor appears intact. Which, also tells me that the engine itself, probably, did not fail and cause this problem. If the engine caused this, it would have had to happen from the fan aft. The fan looks fine.


I have not a clue fr8 but could an engine surge or similar event of some type over pressure the anti-ice ducting on the inlet and cause the inlet to structurally fail? Then the airflow finish off the job on the compromised inlet cowl.

Okie
 
Ceamajay
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Re: WN Engine Damage/Cowl Separation In Flight MSY-MCO

Sun Aug 28, 2016 1:46 am

Judging from the window pattern, that gash looks to be about six inches from the left elbow of the lucky occupant of seat 8A. Even on WN I'd say that entitles him or her to a complimentary alcoholic beverage.

(It's good that we can laugh about it. It would appear that the flight crew, and those parts of the aircraft which remained attached, performed their respective duties to perfection.)
 
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Re: WN Engine Damage/Cowl Separation In Flight MSY-MCO

Sun Aug 28, 2016 2:12 am

I suspect that any surge that occurred, happened because of the airflow disruption due to the damage in the inlet. The surge may have finished the cowl off, but I don't think a surge started the process.

Need to follow the investigation on this one. But, I'm not sure it's big enough to involve the NTSB, past notification.
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mnradio
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Re: WN Engine Damage/Cowl Separation In Flight MSY-MCO

Sun Aug 28, 2016 3:23 am

Wow and amazing but has happened before.

During 1981, the #3 engine nose cowl of a Northwest Airlines DC-10-40 (N143US) detached shortly after take off from Dulles Airport.

According to the NTSB report, was caused by the failure of the #30 fan blade which ravaged the fan containment case of the JT9D-20 engine.

The SWA damage appears to be forward of the fan so fan or uncontained engine failure does not seem so likely.

I was on board the NWA B747F (N618US) that flew a replacement engine and nose cowl in to BWI a day or two later to repair N143US (which was otherwise undamaged).
 
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Re: WN Engine Damage/Cowl Separation In Flight MSY-MCO

Sun Aug 28, 2016 3:25 am

fr8mech wrote:
I suspect that any surge that occurred, happened because of the airflow disruption due to the damage in the inlet. The surge may have finished the cowl off, but I don't think a surge started the process.

Need to follow the investigation on this one. But, I'm not sure it's big enough to involve the NTSB, past notification.

This was a very serious incident, including depressurization, so the NTSB will be involved for sure.
 
crownvic
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Re: WN Engine Damage/Cowl Separation In Flight MSY-MCO

Sun Aug 28, 2016 3:28 am

Kudos to the crew and the sound construction of the 737 ...right out of the movie Airport..

But more important I learned that Pensacola has an obscene 3 letter airport identifier
PNS
 
sebring
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Re: WN Engine Damage/Cowl Separation In Flight MSY-MCO

Sun Aug 28, 2016 3:54 am

This was posted by an AME on a Canadian aviation board

From what I can see, no significant portion of fan is missing, all components affected are forward of the fan. We've seen early indications of this sort of thing and it is something I've been watching for for some time but until now have yet to see it this bad.

When metal work ie. repairs/patches, are done on the nose cowl, frequently rivet ends, tails and other swarf are left behind, inside the nose cowl. The nose cowl anti-ice air swirls these bits around abrading the inside surface of the cowl - counter clockwise when viewed from the front looking back, from about the 8:00 position. The worst damage is from about the 7:00 to about the 1:00 position.

I have seen where all the rivet bucks and a significant portion of the skin have been eroded away...to a significant percentage of skin thickness. There is no external indication until a lot of the rivets at the aft end of the nose cowl are loose/smoking. Any cowl that has been repaired with blind fasteners, particularly repeatedly, could potentially have very hard cherry pulls (blind fastener components) left inside the cowl. When a nose cowl is removed/replaced, the interior is still not visible and it would be unusual (until this) to look in the locations I'm talking about. These locations are only visible when the cowl itself is disassembled. In my opinion an over-pressure of the nose cowl is highly unlikely due the size of the vent for that air.
 
chrisair
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Re: WN Engine Damage/Cowl Separation In Flight MSY-MCO

Sun Aug 28, 2016 3:56 am

LightningZ71 wrote:
unscheduled disassembly.


Unscheduled disassembly? Is there such thing as a scheduled disassembly in flight? ;)

That thing must have made one heck of a bang.
 
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zeke
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Re: WN Engine Damage/Cowl Separation In Flight MSY-MCO

Sun Aug 28, 2016 4:08 am

Referring to the first photo in the OP.

Anyone car to comment why the latches look undone ?

Why is the inspection panel open
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a380787
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Re: WN Engine Damage/Cowl Separation In Flight MSY-MCO

Sun Aug 28, 2016 4:08 am

Yikes that looks bad. The last thing WN needs is to be in the headlines again.
 
CH47A
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Re: WN Engine Damage/Cowl Separation In Flight MSY-MCO

Sun Aug 28, 2016 4:10 am

What are the thoughts on this simply being a case of a ground maintenance individual and his/her boss not properly doing their job?

And I hope to be excused for using the vocabulary simply.

EDIT: An apology for missing sebring's post just a bit above. Seems somebody else also is thinking that some sort of human ground maintenance situation may be a factor here.
 
LightningZ71
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Re: WN Engine Damage/Cowl Separation In Flight MSY-MCO

Sun Aug 28, 2016 4:13 am

It's an Elon Musk / SpaceX term. He uses it to describe the process by which a rocket annihilates itself when it hits the ground with excess velocity, or an uncontained rapid burn of combustible material leads to an over-pressure situation inside of a space craft (it blows up).

While I like the speculation in the above post with respect to cowl material failure due to abrasions from internal debris, I just don't think that it goes far enough to explain the needed force required to propel parts of the cowl into the winglet and fuselage, especially against an oncoming air stream at cruise velocity. I still like the failed anti-ice valve causing a cowl inlet over-pressure situation that blows apart the inlet assembly theory (not the event, tres scary). Perhaps the indicator light in the cockpit failed to illuminate for some reason, or it was not warned, or missed by the flight crew? Unfortunately, this isn't my area of expertise. While I'm in IT these days, I was in college for mechanical engineering for a few years before switching to computers. My materials science class is but a distant memory.

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