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ro1960
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TK1815 missed approach at NCE

Sun Aug 28, 2016 6:58 pm

Flight TK1815 IST-NCE missed its approach to runway 22R at NCE on August 27. The aircraft flew low over the city (130m) and created scare among the inhabitants as the terrain is quite hilly near the airport. The aircraft is a 737-800 TC-JVL. It landed safely on second attempt. The DGAC is carrying an investigation. There is also an internal Turkish Airlines investigation.

Image

https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/tc-jvl/#acf9d7f
Do not compensate for the lack of skills with a surplus of opinion.
 
FriscoHeavy
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Re: TK1815 missed approach at NCE

Sun Aug 28, 2016 9:28 pm

Why is there an investigation for a missed approach? It landed safely on the 2nd attempt.
Whatever
 
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ro1960
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Re: TK1815 missed approach at NCE

Sun Aug 28, 2016 9:49 pm

I would guess because it dangerously flew low over the city, close to hills, off by a good 500m of the regular path.
Do not compensate for the lack of skills with a surplus of opinion.
 
jpetekyxmd80
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Re: TK1815 missed approach at NCE

Sun Aug 28, 2016 9:58 pm

That's a very weird missed approach
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aircatalonia
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Re: TK1815 missed approach at NCE

Mon Aug 29, 2016 12:31 am

Why climb higher than 130m if you are going to have to descend back to 0? :)
 
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ro1960
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Re: TK1815 missed approach at NCE

Mon Aug 29, 2016 5:32 am

jpetekyxmd80 wrote:
That's a very weird missed approach


There is certainly a reasonable explanation but it sure did frighten the population. You have to remember that the July 14 attack is still fresh in people's memory.
Do not compensate for the lack of skills with a surplus of opinion.
 
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ro1960
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Re: TK1815 missed approach at NCE

Mon Aug 29, 2016 5:33 am

aircatalonia wrote:
Why climb higher than 130m if you are going to have to descend back to 0? :)


Respect of standard procedures.
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saleya22r
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Re: TK1815 missed approach at NCE

Mon Aug 29, 2016 7:06 am

I saw it happening. My residence is at about 140 m, north of the airport. When the plane came visible, it was already turning south and climbing a bit higher. Clearly a badly executed 22R approach that missed the turn to short finals, then ending up above the city center. The hills west of Nice and north of the airport reach 200+m. If the plane was at 130 m ASL as said in the local news, it was clearly a lot nearer the residential areas violating the flight rules hence making the investigation necessary. The weather was good albeit a bit hazy. Last winter there was an article in Nice Matin about the 22 approach. It is not unusual for the approaching planes to come too near the city, to turn too late to finals etc, and making the use GPS mandatory for "Saleya".
 
b747400erf
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Re: TK1815 missed approach at NCE

Mon Aug 29, 2016 8:08 am

That VOR approach is not complicated, TK has a long recent history of poor airmanship, add this to the list.
 
Chaostheory
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Re: TK1815 missed approach at NCE

Mon Aug 29, 2016 8:15 am

b747400erf wrote:
That VOR approach is not complicated, TK has a long recent history of poor airmanship, add this to the list.


Whilst the approach in and of itself isn't difficult, NCE is often subject to turbulence and windshear, even on seemingly good days. A colleague refers to it as the "Narita of Europe".
 
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euroflyer
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Re: TK1815 missed approach at NCE

Mon Aug 29, 2016 8:33 am

That's one pretty nice overshot. It flew above city at less than 500ft when regulation is 5000ft lowest
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b747400erf
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Re: TK1815 missed approach at NCE

Mon Aug 29, 2016 8:40 am

Chaostheory wrote:
b747400erf wrote:
That VOR approach is not complicated, TK has a long recent history of poor airmanship, add this to the list.


Whilst the approach in and of itself isn't difficult, NCE is often subject to turbulence and windshear, even on seemingly good days. A colleague refers to it as the "Narita of Europe".


Explain how turbulence or windshear can lead to the approach they did
 
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euroflyer
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Re: TK1815 missed approach at NCE

Mon Aug 29, 2016 8:48 am

b747400erf wrote:
That VOR approach is not complicated, TK has a long recent history of poor airmanship, add this to the list.


Absolute slander. Compared to the huge number of flights they operate, there's nothing pointing any "poor airmanship" by TK.
Born to fly !
 
Chaostheory
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Re: TK1815 missed approach at NCE

Mon Aug 29, 2016 9:29 am

b747400erf wrote:

Explain how turbulence or windshear can lead to the approach they did


Easy.

You get distracted and suffer from tunnel vision. It's one of the most basic and common errors you see occurring during sims and flight training. Given the reports of good visibility and the extreme overshoot, I don't think it's far fetched to conclude that the crew were mostly heads down.
 
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saleya22r
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Re: TK1815 missed approach at NCE

Mon Aug 29, 2016 9:33 am

Whilst the approach in and of itself isn't difficult, NCE is often subject to turbulence and windshear, even on seemingly good days. A colleague refers to it as the "Narita of Europe".[/quote]

Correct, I see missed approaches frequently here from my private viewing point :) , both RWY 4 and 22. But it's a different story. Regarding the use of GPS in this approach, would it really be better as the article in Nice Matin suggested?
 
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saleya22r
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Re: TK1815 missed approach at NCE

Mon Aug 29, 2016 10:16 am

No wind shear reported at that time on Saturday:
LFMN 271600Z 18005KT 9999 FEW040 28/21 Q1019 NOSIG
 
b747400erf
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Re: TK1815 missed approach at NCE

Mon Aug 29, 2016 11:58 am

euroflyer wrote:
b747400erf wrote:
That VOR approach is not complicated, TK has a long recent history of poor airmanship, add this to the list.


Absolute slander. Compared to the huge number of flights they operate, there's nothing pointing any "poor airmanship" by TK.

Go ahead and file a lawsuit. Their mistakes keep piling up.
 
b747400erf
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Re: TK1815 missed approach at NCE

Mon Aug 29, 2016 11:59 am

Chaostheory wrote:
b747400erf wrote:

Explain how turbulence or windshear can lead to the approach they did


Easy.

You get distracted and suffer from tunnel vision. It's one of the most basic and common errors you see occurring during sims and flight training. Given the reports of good visibility and the extreme overshoot, I don't think it's far fetched to conclude that the crew were mostly heads down.

So poor airmanship and not wx conditions it is.
 
rfields5421
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Re: TK1815 missed approach at NCE

Mon Aug 29, 2016 12:06 pm

b747400erf wrote:
Chaostheory wrote:
b747400erf wrote:

Explain how turbulence or windshear can lead to the approach they did


Easy.

You get distracted and suffer from tunnel vision. It's one of the most basic and common errors you see occurring during sims and flight training. Given the reports of good visibility and the extreme overshoot, I don't think it's far fetched to conclude that the crew were mostly heads down.

So poor airmanship and not wx conditions it is.


People on this forum constantly criticize cockpit crews for not keeping their eyes and attention focused on the instruments upon landing/ approach. Pilots are criticized for looking out the front window and planning their landing - as poor airmanship.

Now we have people seemingly criticizing a crew for focusing too much on instruments and not looking out the front window as poor airmanship.
Not all who wander are lost.
 
b747400erf
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Re: TK1815 missed approach at NCE

Mon Aug 29, 2016 12:30 pm

rfields5421 wrote:
b747400erf wrote:
Chaostheory wrote:

Easy.

You get distracted and suffer from tunnel vision. It's one of the most basic and common errors you see occurring during sims and flight training. Given the reports of good visibility and the extreme overshoot, I don't think it's far fetched to conclude that the crew were mostly heads down.

So poor airmanship and not wx conditions it is.


People on this forum constantly criticize cockpit crews for not keeping their eyes and attention focused on the instruments upon landing/ approach. Pilots are criticized for looking out the front window and planning their landing - as poor airmanship.

Now we have people seemingly criticizing a crew for focusing too much on instruments and not looking out the front window as poor airmanship.

I do not think any of us can say what distracted the crew unless a report comes out, but if we look at their recorded track, it was poor airmanship for some reason.
 
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ro1960
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Re: TK1815 missed approach at NCE

Mon Aug 29, 2016 12:40 pm

What happened that made the pilots miss the left turn off the "Cap de Nice" and continue on over the city is at this point unknown to us, mere aviation enthusiasts or industry professionals. Pointing fingers without proof never makes you look good. Let's wait for the investigations outcome.
Do not compensate for the lack of skills with a surplus of opinion.
 
mict
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Re: TK1815 missed approach at NCE

Mon Aug 29, 2016 4:25 pm

I read on a Turkish website that is was due to a RNAV malfunction.
 
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saleya22r
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Re: TK1815 missed approach at NCE

Mon Aug 29, 2016 5:02 pm

mict wrote:
I read on a Turkish website that is was due to a RNAV malfunction.


So was the problem with the RNAV solved during the stopover?
The incident is still very much in the local media:
http://www.nicematin.com/faits-divers/m ... ines-74370

So far, TK has not answered any questions posed by Nice Matin
 
bobdino
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Re: TK1815 missed approach at NCE

Mon Aug 29, 2016 5:30 pm

ro1960 wrote:
jpetekyxmd80 wrote:
That's a very weird missed approach


There is certainly a reasonable explanation but it sure did frighten the population. You have to remember that the July 14 attack is still fresh in people's memory.


For those that don't know Nice's geography - see the beach on the track? See the road just beside the beach? That's where 86 people were murdered by a cretin in a truck six weeks ago. Folks are extremely jumpy, and understandably so.
 
runway23
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Re: TK1815 missed approach at NCE

Mon Aug 29, 2016 5:36 pm

mict wrote:
I read on a Turkish website that is was due to a RNAV malfunction.


I don't see how anyone can believe this. Landing on 22R isn't hard especially with charts in front of you. It's quite clear that you don't fly over the city of Nice, ever. You always come in next to the port then follow the promenade.

It seems quite clear TK's pilots weren't mentally there and a bad case of airmanship, yet another one for the airline. I hope TK get investigated and properly fined for this incident.
 
mict
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Re: TK1815 missed approach at NCE

Mon Aug 29, 2016 9:05 pm

runway23 wrote:
mict wrote:
I read on a Turkish website that is was due to a RNAV malfunction.


I don't see how anyone can believe this. Landing on 22R isn't hard especially with charts in front of you. It's quite clear that you don't fly over the city of Nice, ever. You always come in next to the port then follow the promenade.

It seems quite clear TK's pilots weren't mentally there and a bad case of airmanship, yet another one for the airline. I hope TK get investigated and properly fined for this incident.


Why jump to conclusions so quickly? I am not saying what I read on that Turkish website is right but we weren't in the cockpit when the incident happened. Let the investigators do their job.
 
northstar80
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Re: TK1815 missed approach at NCE

Tue Aug 30, 2016 12:55 pm

The plane had a problem with its RNAV system thus slipped away from its intended landing path
http://www.kokpit.aero/nice-alcak-ucus-thy
 
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saleya22r
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Re: TK1815 missed approach at NCE

Tue Aug 30, 2016 2:38 pm

northstar80 wrote:
The plane had a problem with its RNAV system thus slipped away from its intended landing path
http://www.kokpit.aero/nice-alcak-ucus-thy


This info has not reached the local media in Nice nor the authorities, at least nothing has been reported. According to today's Nice Matin, TK had given a brief statement, nothing else:
"Conformément à l'information obtenue de la part des pilotes, indique la compagnie, ces derniers ont agi en répondant aux exigences de sécurité de vol. Les conclusions de l'enquête en cours parviendront aux autorités compétentes dès qu'elles seront connues chez Turkish Airlines."
In the Turkish article at least the local time was incorrect, RWY 23 was mentioned instead of 22 etc so let's see what the investigation will reveal. Until then, I think that the RNAV stuff was meant more for the home front.
 
Chaostheory
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Re: TK1815 missed approach at NCE

Tue Aug 30, 2016 5:55 pm

Regardless of the initial VOR or RNAV approach, the base leg turn for the 22s (usually 22r landing and 22l takeoff from memory) at Nice follows pretty much the same profile. When I used to fly corporate there pre-RNAV era, If I had sufficient visual cues, I would be manual long before I got to the beacon on the hills at my 2 o clock. More often then not, you were on the money if you passed the hills at 900-1000ft. That would give you 300-400ft vertical separation from the nearest hill. Once you passed the hills to your right, you would have the harbour and coast line straight ahead at which point yo would commence a sporty left bank to line up with the runway.

It's also worth noting that many operators list(ed) Nice as 'Captain only'.
 
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ro1960
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Re: TK1815 missed approach at NCE

Wed Aug 31, 2016 4:14 pm

For those unfamiliar wit the Saleya approach, here's a very nice video. The point where TK1815 should have veered left is at around 4:40:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JpMbUfjbFAw
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airbuster
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Re: TK1815 missed approach at NCE

Thu Sep 01, 2016 6:13 am

RNAV malfunction?

I believe not as the final turn in the bay is by visual reference. The RNAV approach is nice but this is a approach that calls for keeping you eyes outside and doing some flying. They misjudged the final turn, it happens.

I have flown the RNAV visual 22R/saleya numerous times and you have to be on the ball and tell yourself to keep turning and keep descending to get it in the right spot.

That said it really is one of my favorite approaches in Europe!
FLY FOKKER JET LINE!
 
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saleya22r
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Re: TK1815 missed approach at NCE

Sat Oct 01, 2016 12:48 pm

The final report (in French, ATC communication in English at the end of the report):
http://www.developpement-durable.gouv.f ... finale.pdf
Furthermore, today's(Oct 1) Nice Matin writes that Minister Royal will prohibit the pilots in question from flying in French airspace, and that the airline will be fined.
 
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ro1960
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Re: TK1815 missed approach at NCE

Sat Oct 01, 2016 7:15 pm

Thanks for posting. So the report says that the crew seems to "forget" to make the left turn but TK has not yet produced any information on what was going on in the cockpit. À suivre...
Do not compensate for the lack of skills with a surplus of opinion.

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