Dear fellow A.net members,

I was wondering if the Dreamliner and similar planes help YUL get more non-stop flights? Currently we only have one (even its supposed to be two) airline that operates the 787-8 on a regular basis and that is British Airways, of course we sometimes get some from Air Canada and from RAM (when they decide to send us something else then -RGA...). However, I don't find that BA is using the 788 to its potential with this route as its a very short one. Could we see more airlines from Asia look into YUL because now they have an airplane that is made for long and thing routes? It would be nice to have direct flights to HKG, PEK, DEL, DXB, etc...sadly YUL will never become as big of a player as YYZ because of political situation that we have in our province.

Regards,

LeCoqFrançais

Can the Dreamliner help any airport get more nonstop flights? Absolutely. Not just YUL.

Softaero wrote:

Can the Dreamliner help any airport get more nonstop flights? Absolutely. Not just YUL.

Since I'm based in YUL, you understand why my question is centered around this airport.

You don't need to stretch a plane's legs to not be getting the fullest potential from it's services

LeCoqFrancais wrote:

It would be nice to have direct flights to HKG, PEK, DEL, DXB, etc...

Well, we already have non stop to PEK. Air China operates the route 3x weekly, it will go up to 4x weekly come October 30th, and there are rumors it will go to 5x weekly next summer. So that route is developing nicely. There is also a possibility CA launches PVG-YUL in the next few years, not because of the dreamliner or the fact that there is overwhelming demand for it, but rather because of the current political restriction on Chinese carriers on international routes. (one route, one carrier) So, you see, Air China wants to jump on it and secure the route before a competing airline like Hainan does.

It will be difficult though, as the Canada-China bilateral is nearing max out for Chinese carriers (maybe with Trudeau in China, the bilateral portfolio can be resolved). AC can launch it however, if it weren't for the fact that decent slots are difficult to get at PVG.

As for HKG, DEL and DXB, I doubt it very much we will have service to any of these cities in the future.

CX's Canada rep is on record as saying that YUL is on a shortlist of new Canadian destinations, along side YYC and YEG, due to their acquisition of A359s, not B788s, but personally, I don't buy that for a second.

YYC might see CX one day, but forget about YUL. Too long and too thin.

As for DXB, the Canada-UAE bilateral is maxed out for UAE carriers, so no UAE carrier can operate into YUL and AC won't start it from YUL either. They currently fly YYZ-DXB 3x weekly, and if anything will up it to 6x weekly and max out their slots as well.

As for India, the market is too long and too thin to make a go out of it from YUL.

The go to Indian markets in Canada are YVR and YYZ. Period.

So to sum up, just because the dreamliner is available doesn't mean YUL will see a new plethora of routes. Personally, I feel YUL has attracted a decent amount of new international carriers in the last few years. We shouldn't push our luck.

That being said, i can see AC launching YUL-NRT with the B788 in the short to medium term future.

I have heard a couple of tidbits about future expansion with AC in YUL. The CMN-YUL with Rouge is doing extremely well, and starting next summer it will be flying year round daily. As well AC will be announcing in the next few months the launch of YUL-BEY, and YUL-PEK. YUL-BEY will be 4 or 5 times a week with a 767 from Rouge, while the YUL-PEK will be 2 times a week with a 788. And just to add to your original topic, Royal Jordanian flies 3 times a week to YUL with a 788.

njw2013 wrote:

I have heard a couple of tidbits about future expansion with AC in YUL. The CMN-YUL with Rouge is doing extremely well, and starting next summer it will be flying year round daily. As well AC will be announcing in the next few months the launch of YUL-BEY, and YUL-PEK. YUL-BEY will be 4 or 5 times a week with a 767 from Rouge, while the YUL-PEK will be 2 times a week with a 788. And just to add to your original topic, Royal Jordanian flies 3 times a week to YUL with a 788.

Two things that don't make sense here.

First, YUL-BEY. Highly doubt AC will be given the green light to start this flight. Same reason why they were denied back in 2003. National security. Nothing has changed on that front.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/nat ... e22394295/

Second. AC to PEK.

AC and CA have a joint venture. Meaning AC essentially already "flies" YUL-PEK. It makes little financial sense for both carriers to operate the route. They should just let CA operate it. Now don't get me wrong, there are definitely markets that can justify both airlines operating the route, such as YVR-PEK, due to the overwhelming demand, but YUL-PEK doesn't check that box.

Now that YUL-PEK is already served, I feel YUL-NRT is a no brainer for AC with the B788.

I'm a bit skeptical about the YUL-PEK with AC. However I have heard from numerous people from AC, that the YUL-BEY is definitely happening. They definitely have the demand. I am 95% sure this route is being announced in the next few months.

njw2013 wrote:

I'm a bit skeptical about the YUL-PEK with AC. However I have heard from numerous people from AC, that the YUL-BEY is definitely happening. They definitely have the demand. I am 95% sure this route is being announced in the next few months.

Oh I know demand is there. They can easily fill a daily flight between YUL and BEY. Why do you think AF flies to YUL 3x daily. Specifically because of onward connections such as those to BEY.

That being said, i highly doubt our political elite will allow AC to start this route. I will be pleasantly surprised if they do however.

Thenoflyzone wrote:

njw2013 wrote:

I'm a bit skeptical about the YUL-PEK with AC. However I have heard from numerous people from AC, that the YUL-BEY is definitely happening. They definitely have the demand. I am 95% sure this route is being announced in the next few months.

Oh I know demand is there. They can easily fill a daily flight between YUL and BEY. Why do you think AF flies to YUL 3x daily. Specifically because of onward connections such as those to BEY.

That being said, i highly doubt our political elite will allow AC to start this route. I will be pleasantly surprised if they do however.

also i know AC gets many BEY pax from GVA, with their codeshare with MEA.

I think I've read somewhere there is a rather large demand between Montreal and Beirut. Air Canada was going to launch YUL-BEY in 2003, but it was cancelled days before it was planned to be launched. Would it be reconsidered with the 787-8?

What are the biggest connecting hubs for passengers between Montreal and Beirut? I've heard Air France carries a lot of traffic from Montreal to Beirut.

njw2013 wrote:

AC will be announcing in the next few months the launch of .... YUL-PEK...., ....will be 2 times a week with a 788.

Apparently the China-Canada bilateral is completely maxed out for Chinese carriers. So with that in mind, i can see why AC would want to launch YUL-PEK, in order to compliment CA's service and up the frequency to 6x weekly or daily.

I hope it's other airlines' 787s cause AC 787s are in dismal conditions. Always dirty and things are perpetually broken.

Thenoflyzone wrote:

YYC might see CX one day, but forget about YUL. Too long and too thin.

CX already serves YYC a few times a week but cargo only with 747-8F. Started about 2 years ago. Looks like it currently operates JFK-YYC-ANC-HKG.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3rbbz3e3hWE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UwMairyUIs0

I can not believe I forgot the Royal Jordanian 787 flights! I have no excuse as its my all time favourite 787 and I have a model of it right next to my computer!

VCEflyboy wrote:

I hope it's other airlines' 787s cause AC 787s are in dismal conditions. Always dirty and things are perpetually broken.

Weren't too bad when I flew on a B787-9 twice last month.

YUL just isn't a big market for airlines. Montreal is a large city but unfortunately there is not much demand for more flights.

Viscount724 wrote:

Thenoflyzone wrote:

YYC might see CX one day, but forget about YUL. Too long and too thin.

CX already serves YYC a few times a week but cargo only with 747-8F. Started about 2 years ago. Looks like it currently operates JFK-YYC-ANC-HKG.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3rbbz3e3hWE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UwMairyUIs0

A Cathay Pacific representative came to YYC last summer and indicated that they where reviewing the route for passengers. Frankly, I think that Cathay's fleet types are too large for Calgary. This is where the 787 would work well. Cathay did indicate the they are looking for new routes based on there new fleet. British Colombia's new tax of foreign ownership may help there decision. YYC is getting more foreign interest now.

Back to the subject
The 787 in the perfect, smallish wide body , plane for direct routes from airports of Canada's larger cities other than Vancouver or Toronto. On the other hand AC wants to charge you more to fly to Toronto to catch a flight. Montreal already enjoys a lot of wide bodies now from carriers that would never see airports in the prairies.

PerfectGriffin wrote:

YUL just isn't a big market for airlines. Montreal is a large city but unfortunately there is not much demand for more flights.

Correct, Montreal is a big city with a large theoretical market, however we have two problems that makes our market smaller and less interesting for airlines/investors/companies. The first reason is that Montreal is mainly french and the francophones from Quebec will prefer flying a francophone airline, thus reducing possible airline services. The second reason is politics, our province is very unstable in the sense that we always have the looming menace of becoming a nation, and this unstability scares away many airlines/investors/companies. If you removed just one of these two issues we could have an airport similar in size to YYZ, but sadly we have these two issues and they will always impede our growth.

LeCoqFrancais wrote:

PerfectGriffin wrote:

YUL just isn't a big market for airlines. Montreal is a large city but unfortunately there is not much demand for more flights.

Correct, Montreal is a big city with a large theoretical market, however we have two problems that makes our market smaller and less interesting for airlines/investors/companies. The first reason is that Montreal is mainly french and the francophones from Quebec will prefer flying a francophone airline, thus reducing possible airline services. The second reason is politics, our province is very unstable in the sense that we always have the looming menace of becoming a nation, and this unstability scares away many airlines/investors/companies. If you removed just one of these two issues we could have an airport similar in size to YYZ, but sadly we have these two issues and they will always impede our growth.

I can never understand that first reason. People and countries in other parts of the world don't have that problem, and it's not like most Québécois' cannot speak English.

I think YUL has the potential to be an airport the size of YVR, not YYZ. YYZ is busy because it's AC's main hub and there are so many foreign people that live in the GTA (significantly more than Montreal).

PerfectGriffin wrote:

I can never understand that first reason. People and countries in other parts of the world don't have that problem, and it's not like most Québécois' cannot speak English.

Simple, most Francophone Quebequers are very insecure.

For East Asia, PEK-YUL is served by CA already, although I am not sure how good the business is. The only other market I see is YUL-NRT. All other East Asian destinations would have miserable O&D traffic with YUL. YYZ can provide the same (or better) connections to eastern Canada and US than YUL, so there is no incentives for Asian carriers to fly from any point in East Asia to YUL to get connection traffic. YYC has a better chance landing more East Asian destinations. ME3 will probably be more interested in flying to YUL, but Etihad and EK are restricted by the bilaterals.

Probably there are more potentials to open more European cities with YUL, especially some secondary ones. But it would not be 788 that makes it happen. It would be A321NEO.

raylee67 wrote:

For East Asia, PEK-YUL is served by CA already, although I am not sure how good the business is. The only other market I see is YUL-NRT. All other East Asian destinations would have miserable O&D traffic with YUL. YYZ can provide the same (or better) connections to eastern Canada and US than YUL, so there is no incentives for Asian carriers to fly from any point in East Asia to YUL to get connection traffic. YYC has a better chance landing more East Asian destinations. ME3 will probably be more interested in flying to YUL, but Etihad and EK are restricted by the bilaterals.

Probably there are more potentials to open more European cities with YUL, especially some secondary ones. But it would not be 788 that makes it happen. It would be A321NEO.

I'm not sure if the ME3 are interested in YUL. I think QR started YUL because YYZ already had EY and EK, and 3 flights a week is enough to serve the market, but I question if YUL can sustain a daily ME3 flight.

EK has never publicly said they are interested in YUL, they've only said there is a market able to sustain doubt daily flights to YYZ, YVR and YYC. Given these statements, even if EK is given more flights, I don't expect YUL to be a priority.

raylee67 wrote:

For East Asia, PEK-YUL is served by CA already, although I am not sure how good the business is. The only other market I see is YUL-NRT. All other East Asian destinations would have miserable O&D traffic with YUL. YYZ can provide the same (or better) connections to eastern Canada and US than YUL, so there is no incentives for Asian carriers to fly from any point in East Asia to YUL to get connection traffic. YYC has a better chance landing more East Asian destinations. ME3 will probably be more interested in flying to YUL, but Etihad and EK are restricted by the bilaterals.

Probably there are more potentials to open more European cities with YUL, especially some secondary ones. But it would not be 788 that makes it happen. It would be A321NEO.

YUL-PVG is just as strong, if not stronger a market than YUL-NRT. This is why CA applied to start YUL-PVG as well. NRT has better star alliance connectivity with NH, something that is lacking in PVG, as Air China's network from PVG is not as strong compared to PEK.

But i agree, apart from these two, not much else can be had in East Asia.

PerfectGriffin wrote:

I'm not sure if the ME3 are interested in YUL. I think QR started YUL because YYZ already had EY and EK, and 3 flights a week is enough to serve the market, but I question if YUL can sustain a daily ME3 flight.

EK has never publicly said they are interested in YUL, they've only said there is a market able to sustain doubt daily flights to YYZ, YVR and YYC. Given these statements, even if EK is given more flights, I don't expect YUL to be a priority.

I don't agree. QR could have easily chosen to start YVR or YYC. And yet they still chose YUL.

I believe that if we ever get another ME3 service it will be from Emirates as they seem to be the one that is willing to take more risk or that is able to sustain routes that other airlines can't or at least at loads that no other airline can sustain.
That being said, I would enjoy seeing Air Canada launch some routes to China from here as our Asian community/Asian Investors is growing and will continue to grow. One ex. showing how much Asians (Chinese mostly I believe) invest in Montreal is the condominium complex called YUL (ironic no?) located in Downtown Montreal near where the Habs play, if it was not Chinese Investing firm that invested in the complex it would have never took off (pardon the pun).

LeCoqFrancais wrote:

I believe that if we ever get another ME3 service it will be from Emirates as they seem to be the one that is willing to take more risk or that is able to sustain routes that other airlines can't or at least at loads that no other airline can sustain.
That being said, I would enjoy seeing Air Canada launch some routes to China from here as our Asian community/Asian Investors is growing and will continue to grow. One ex. showing how much Asians (Chinese mostly I believe) invest in Montreal is the condominium complex called YUL (ironic no?) located in Downtown Montreal near where the Habs play, if it was not Chinese Investing firm that invested in the complex it would have never took off (pardon the pun).

Given what we now know about the Canada-China bilateral, i think AC to PEK or PVG is a given. I'd say within the next 3 years. Beijing should have its new airport open by then, and PVG should have a 5th runway come online, enabling more slots to open up.

I think NRT could be on the cards as well from YUL. Apart from these, nothing else really makes sense.

Thenoflyzone wrote:

LeCoqFrancais wrote:

I believe that if we ever get another ME3 service it will be from Emirates as they seem to be the one that is willing to take more risk or that is able to sustain routes that other airlines can't or at least at loads that no other airline can sustain.
That being said, I would enjoy seeing Air Canada launch some routes to China from here as our Asian community/Asian Investors is growing and will continue to grow. One ex. showing how much Asians (Chinese mostly I believe) invest in Montreal is the condominium complex called YUL (ironic no?) located in Downtown Montreal near where the Habs play, if it was not Chinese Investing firm that invested in the complex it would have never took off (pardon the pun).

Given what we now know about the Canada-China bilateral, i think AC to PEK or PVG is a given. I'd say within the next 3 years. Beijing should have its new airport open by then, and PVG should have a 5th runway come online, enabling more slots to open up.

I think NRT could be on the cards as well from YUL. Apart from these, nothing else really makes sense.

NRT or HND? It seems that if they can get good slots airlines prefer operating to HND rather then NRT.

PerfectGriffin wrote:

YUL just isn't a big market for airlines. Montreal is a large city but unfortunately there is not much demand for more flights.

Many cities Montreal's size in the U.S. would be envious to have even a small fraction of the international service YUL has, for example roughly 15 airlines with transatlantic service.

Viscount724 wrote:

PerfectGriffin wrote:

YUL just isn't a big market for airlines. Montreal is a large city but unfortunately there is not much demand for more flights.

Many cities Montreal's size in the U.S. would be envious to have even a small fraction of the international service YUL has, for example roughly 15 airlines with transatlantic service.

Yes, the amount of foreign airlines at YUL is more than comparable US airports, but total traffic is quite low. Also Canadian airports cannot always be compared to US airports, since our airports receive more international service than US cities with similar populations.

njw2013 wrote:

I have heard a couple of tidbits about future expansion with AC in YUL. The CMN-YUL with Rouge is doing extremely well, and starting next summer it will be flying year round daily. As well AC will be announcing in the next few months the launch of YUL-BEY, and YUL-PEK. YUL-BEY will be 4 or 5 times a week with a 767 from Rouge, while the YUL-PEK will be 2 times a week with a 788. And just to add to your original topic, Royal Jordanian flies 3 times a week to YUL with a 788.

Just wanted to add that the YUL-CMN route that will go daily starting in Summer 2017 will be going mainline instead of Rouge, and will be flown by 787s, although don't know if it will be the 787-8 or 9.