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jetjack74
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Pilot talks at DL have broken down

Sun Sep 11, 2016 12:57 pm

The ongoing negotiations have stalled with the pilots walking away from the bargaining table. From the Union itself. This document is also available on the Delta MEC website, dal.alpa.org. Click on Chairman’s Letter banner on the homepage.

September 9, 2016

Dear Fellow Pilot,

Mediated negotiations resumed this week in Baltimore. I spent the week with our Negotiating Committee to support their efforts. While not physically at the bargaining table, I was with the committee for all their deliberations and did address management’s negotiating team on the first day. My message was simple: it is time to conclude these negotiations. To do so, we needed to see significant movement.

We restarted the negotiating process almost one year ago by focusing on the sections of the rejected tentative agreement the pilots found objectionable. One of the last “toxic” items to deal with is management’s proposal to modify profit sharing.

When the National Mediation Board (NMB) set the schedule to meet this week, it was prepared to continue mediated talks the following week if sufficient progress was being made. For me, and our Negotiating Committee, a “go-no go” item was management’s profit sharing proposal.

Unfortunately, management’s latest proposal retains changes to profit sharing we cannot accept and they have not addressed several of our must-have items. Their present table positions ignore the exceptional contributions and investments of the pilot group during bankruptcy, through the merger, the recent computer outage, and during the current unprecedented success of our airline. Since there was not enough progress to warrant a meeting, I cancelled the special MEC meeting scheduled for next week. Instead, your representatives will be in the lounges.

It’s time for management to get serious at the bargaining table. Once again, I am asking for your help. Look for a Get Serious call-to-action next week. We must send a strong message to Delta management that the time to conclude this agreement is now. As noted above, your elected representatives will be in the pilot lounges next week to answer your questions and provide information on how you can help. Please take the time to get engaged. The process thrives when pilots are actively involved in the direction of their union. Look for upcoming SPSC communications detailing activities and events where you can participate.

It is way past time for these negotiations to be concluded in a manner that reflects the contribution we add to Delta. Everyone else has been rewarded: other employees, shareholders and management. The MEC will meet in Atlanta beginning September 19. I can speak with certainty that the MEC will be resolutely united in its message: Delta, pay your pilots.

Fraternally,
Captain John Malone
Delta MEC Chairman
Made from jets!
 
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11725Flyer
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Re: Pilot talks at DL have broken down

Sun Sep 11, 2016 4:08 pm

This, or any future government, will never let the DL pilots strike, and DL management knows it.
 
aaexecplat
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Re: Pilot talks at DL have broken down

Sun Sep 11, 2016 7:12 pm

They don't have to strike. If they simply "work to rule", it will wreak havoc on the airline and especially its passengers.
 
Varsity1
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Re: Pilot talks at DL have broken down

Sun Sep 11, 2016 7:50 pm

I'm amazed at what length the DL C office will go to save a dollar. The pilots are mostly asking for a scope clause covering future intl JV's.
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Rdh3e
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Re: Pilot talks at DL have broken down

Sun Sep 11, 2016 8:55 pm

WN pilots just inked a massive deal. That is likely playing into the expectations of the pilots and increasing pressure on management.
 
DDR
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Re: Pilot talks at DL have broken down

Sun Sep 11, 2016 9:03 pm

11725Flyer wrote:
This, or any future government, will never let the DL pilots strike, and DL management knows it.


You are correct. The problem with all these mergers is that now there aren't enough seats on the remaining carriers to transport people who are affected by a strike. It should be no surprise that the government will never allow one of the big three to strike.
 
hayzel777
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Re: Pilot talks at DL have broken down

Mon Sep 12, 2016 12:04 am

Varsity1 wrote:
I'm amazed at what length the DL C office will go to save a dollar. The pilots are mostly asking for a scope clause covering future intl JV's.


Why should pilots get a say in how the airline inks JV's? The management is doing it for the benefit of the airline.
 
Varsity1
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Re: Pilot talks at DL have broken down

Mon Sep 12, 2016 12:18 am

hayzel777 wrote:
Varsity1 wrote:
I'm amazed at what length the DL C office will go to save a dollar. The pilots are mostly asking for a scope clause covering future intl JV's.


Why should pilots get a say in how the airline inks JV's? The management is doing it for the benefit of the airline.


And airmailing the pilot's jobs overseas. The pilots gave up every concession the airline asked for when it was bankrupt. Outside of 'profit sharing', they haven't received anything back.
"PPRuNe will no longer allow discussions regarding Etihad Airlines, its employees, executives, agents, or other representatives. Such threads will be deleted." - ME3 thug airlines suing anyone who brings negative information public..
 
flyby519
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Re: Pilot talks at DL have broken down

Mon Sep 12, 2016 12:19 am

hayzel777 wrote:
Varsity1 wrote:
I'm amazed at what length the DL C office will go to save a dollar. The pilots are mostly asking for a scope clause covering future intl JV's.


Why should pilots get a say in how the airline inks JV's? The management is doing it for the benefit of the airline.


What's good for the airline isn't always good for the pilots.
 
aaexecplat
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Re: Pilot talks at DL have broken down

Mon Sep 12, 2016 12:38 am

Varsity1 wrote:
hayzel777 wrote:
Varsity1 wrote:
I'm amazed at what length the DL C office will go to save a dollar. The pilots are mostly asking for a scope clause covering future intl JV's.


Why should pilots get a say in how the airline inks JV's? The management is doing it for the benefit of the airline.


And airmailing the pilot's jobs overseas. The pilots gave up every concession the airline asked for when it was bankrupt. Outside of 'profit sharing', they haven't received anything back.


Lolz. How are they airmailing the jobs overseas? And the last statement is almost certainly incorrect. The pilots have gotten someretty big salary increases and profit sharing and were they not the only group that kept its pensions? The FAs and other groups took if in the shorts far worse and have received back less, IINM.
 
Cubsrule
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Re: Pilot talks at DL have broken down

Mon Sep 12, 2016 2:06 am

Varsity1 wrote:
hayzel777 wrote:
Varsity1 wrote:
I'm amazed at what length the DL C office will go to save a dollar. The pilots are mostly asking for a scope clause covering future intl JV's.


Why should pilots get a say in how the airline inks JV's? The management is doing it for the benefit of the airline.


And airmailing the pilot's jobs overseas. The pilots gave up every concession the airline asked for when it was bankrupt. Outside of 'profit sharing', they haven't received anything back.


What routes that DL does not fly do you believe it would be flying today if it had fewer JVs? Surely, Delta pilots would not be flying PHL/PIT/RDU-CDG.
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Varsity1
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Re: Pilot talks at DL have broken down

Mon Sep 12, 2016 2:35 am

Cubsrule wrote:
Varsity1 wrote:
hayzel777 wrote:

Why should pilots get a say in how the airline inks JV's? The management is doing it for the benefit of the airline.


And airmailing the pilot's jobs overseas. The pilots gave up every concession the airline asked for when it was bankrupt. Outside of 'profit sharing', they haven't received anything back.


What routes that DL does not fly do you believe it would be flying today if it had fewer JVs? Surely, Delta pilots would not be flying PHL/PIT/RDU-CDG.



They would certainly be flying quite a bit more LAX/JFK/SEA/ATL/DTW/MSP-CDG and LAX/JFK/SEA/ATL/DTW-LHR if it weren't for VS. DL has something like 18 777's and 9 747's. Everything else is 767/A330 or smaller. Not proportionate for an airline with a fleet of 840 aircraft.
"PPRuNe will no longer allow discussions regarding Etihad Airlines, its employees, executives, agents, or other representatives. Such threads will be deleted." - ME3 thug airlines suing anyone who brings negative information public..
 
Cubsrule
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Re: Pilot talks at DL have broken down

Mon Sep 12, 2016 2:41 am

Varsity1 wrote:
They would certainly be flying quite a bit more LAX/JFK/SEA/ATL/DTW/MSP-CDG and LAX/JFK/SEA/ATL/DTW-LHR if it weren't for VS.


AA can't make ORD-CDG work year-round, but you think DL could manage DTW-CDG and MSP-CDG with no partner on the other end?

Varsity1 wrote:
DL has something like 18 777's and 9 747's. Everything else is 767/A330 or smaller. Not proportionate for an airline with a fleet of 840 aircraft.


Increasing gauge DECREASES pilot jobs if you hold the network constant. It takes 6 pilots to fly two 757 flights BOS-JFK. It takes 3 to fly one 747 flight.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
DiamondFlyer
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Re: Pilot talks at DL have broken down

Mon Sep 12, 2016 3:05 am

Cubsrule wrote:
Increasing gauge DECREASES pilot jobs if you hold the network constant. It takes 6 pilots to fly two 757 flights BOS-JFK. It takes 3 to fly one 747 flight.


And it takes ZERO Delta pilots to fly Virgin, KLM, or Air France planes.... Which is exactly what Delta management wants, if they get their way.
From my cold, dead hands
 
CV880
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Re: Pilot talks at DL have broken down

Mon Sep 12, 2016 4:12 am

aaexecplat wrote:
Varsity1 wrote:
hayzel777 wrote:

Why should pilots get a say in how the airline inks JV's? The management is doing it for the benefit of the airline.


And airmailing the pilot's jobs overseas. The pilots gave up every concession the airline asked for when it was bankrupt. Outside of 'profit sharing', they haven't received anything back.


Lolz. How are they airmailing the jobs overseas? And the last statement is almost certainly incorrect. The pilots have gotten someretty big salary increases and profit sharing and were they not the only group that kept its pensions? The FAs and other groups took if in the shorts far worse and have received back less, IINM.


Yes, the entire current payroll has received some hefty increases, however the DL Pilots pensions at the time of bankruptcy went to the PBGC as opposed to the other pensions, which still remain in the pension plan. These pensions do reflect a social security offset which in fact discounts the normal payout when one begins to collect social security. I have no idea how the pensions at NWA were affected except that both airlines declared BK at the same time. Many of the pilots that retired prior to the BK filing enjoyed upwards of $1Mil lump sum payouts. These payouts basically sent DL into BK as hundreds of pilots were retiring monthly at the time. The "defined pensions" which still remain in the pension plan are still underfunded but thanks to Congress, the Airlines collectively still have a number of years to get them to acceptable funding levels.
 
IPFreely
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Re: Pilot talks at DL have broken down

Mon Sep 12, 2016 5:23 am

DiamondFlyer wrote:
And it takes ZERO Delta pilots to fly Virgin, KLM, or Air France planes.... Which is exactly what Delta management wants, if they get their way.


Don't forget that Delta also makes money when non-Delta pilots fly Compass, Endeavor, ExpressJet, GoJet, Shuttle America, and Skywest planes.
 
b747400erf
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Re: Pilot talks at DL have broken down

Mon Sep 12, 2016 12:14 pm

11725Flyer wrote:
This, or any future government, will never let the DL pilots strike, and DL management knows it.


Trump is a man of the people, you are silly!
 
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exunited
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Re: Pilot talks at DL have broken down

Mon Sep 12, 2016 12:53 pm

CV880 wrote:
aaexecplat wrote:
Varsity1 wrote:

And airmailing the pilot's jobs overseas. The pilots gave up every concession the airline asked for when it was bankrupt. Outside of 'profit sharing', they haven't received anything back.


Lolz. How are they airmailing the jobs overseas? And the last statement is almost certainly incorrect. The pilots have gotten someretty big salary increases and profit sharing and were they not the only group that kept its pensions? The FAs and other groups took if in the shorts far worse and have received back less, IINM.


Yes, the entire current payroll has received some hefty increases, however the DL Pilots pensions at the time of bankruptcy went to the PBGC as opposed to the other pensions, which still remain in the pension plan. These pensions do reflect a social security offset which in fact discounts the normal payout when one begins to collect social security. I have no idea how the pensions at NWA were affected except that both airlines declared BK at the same time. Many of the pilots that retired prior to the BK filing enjoyed upwards of $1Mil lump sum payouts. These payouts basically sent DL into BK as hundreds of pilots were retiring monthly at the time. The "defined pensions" which still remain in the pension plan are still underfunded but thanks to Congress, the Airlines collectively still have a number of years to get them to acceptable funding levels.


Lump sum payouts are paid from the pension fund, not from the general operating funds of the company and should have no impact on causing a situation leading to bankruptcy other than it would increase the amount of under funding in the plan which is just a number, not a cash burn situation. DL, NW, UA, and US were able to dump their pilot pensions on the PBGC because they all threatened to stop making all pmts into their plans, thus making the under funding situations worse for the PBGC if they did not take them over now.
 
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Re: Pilot talks at DL have broken down

Mon Sep 12, 2016 1:06 pm

Cubsrule wrote:
Varsity1 wrote:
They would certainly be flying quite a bit more LAX/JFK/SEA/ATL/DTW/MSP-CDG and LAX/JFK/SEA/ATL/DTW-LHR if it weren't for VS.


AA can't make ORD-CDG work year-round, but you think DL could manage DTW-CDG and MSP-CDG with no partner on the other end?

Varsity1 wrote:
DL has something like 18 777's and 9 747's. Everything else is 767/A330 or smaller. Not proportionate for an airline with a fleet of 840 aircraft.


Increasing gauge DECREASES pilot jobs if you hold the network constant. It takes 6 pilots to fly two 757 flights BOS-JFK. It takes 3 to fly one 747 flight.



Just for the record Northwest made DTW-CDG work for almost 20 years with no feed on the Paris end.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
Cubsrule
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Re: Pilot talks at DL have broken down

Mon Sep 12, 2016 1:16 pm

DiamondFlyer wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
Increasing gauge DECREASES pilot jobs if you hold the network constant. It takes 6 pilots to fly two 757 flights BOS-JFK. It takes 3 to fly one 747 flight.


And it takes ZERO Delta pilots to fly Virgin, KLM, or Air France planes.... Which is exactly what Delta management wants, if they get their way.


Putting aside the rhetoric, which doesn't really help anybody, we can't ignore the fact that the joint ventures have enabled flying that would not otherwise be feasible. I mentioned several above, but also look at stuff like SLC-CDG/AMS or the periodic DL flights on ORD-CDG.

I realize that PIT-CDG is not a good route for pilots' egos, but flying is flying, and it's hard for me to find evidence that DL would be flying more flights on its own metal without the joint ventures than it is with them.

klm617 wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
Varsity1 wrote:
They would certainly be flying quite a bit more LAX/JFK/SEA/ATL/DTW/MSP-CDG and LAX/JFK/SEA/ATL/DTW-LHR if it weren't for VS.


AA can't make ORD-CDG work year-round, but you think DL could manage DTW-CDG and MSP-CDG with no partner on the other end?


Just for the record Northwest made DTW-CDG work for almost 20 years with no feed on the Paris end.


I'm not sure we can have a constructive conversation if you think the fact that a flight worked in 1996 means that it would work in 2016. Keep in mind, too, that NW dropped MSP-CDG at some point in the early or mid-90s, and I don't think it came back until some time in the Skyteam era.
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mmo
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Re: Pilot talks at DL have broken down

Mon Sep 12, 2016 3:34 pm

EX-UNITED...Just to correct you, NW did not dump their pension with the PGBC. They did a plan termination and pilots were frozen with what they had earned under the old defined benefit plan. I get my complete pension and it's through the pension plan, not the PBGC.
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IPFreely
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Re: Pilot talks at DL have broken down

Mon Sep 12, 2016 3:49 pm

klm617 wrote:
Just for the record Northwest made DTW-CDG work for almost 20 years with no feed on the Paris end.


Just for the record Northwest also went bankrupt.

Regardless, this has nothing to do with the looming battle between Delta and its pilots' union.
 
klm617
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Re: Pilot talks at DL have broken down

Mon Sep 12, 2016 4:55 pm

IPFreely wrote:
klm617 wrote:
Just for the record Northwest made DTW-CDG work for almost 20 years with no feed on the Paris end.


Just for the record Northwest also went bankrupt.

Regardless, this has nothing to do with the looming battle between Delta and its pilots' union.



Delta also went bankrupt what's your point . My comment was in reply to the post that DTW-CDG was unsustainable with out the JV with Air France which is no true.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
klm617
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Re: Pilot talks at DL have broken down

Mon Sep 12, 2016 4:58 pm

Cubsrule wrote:
DiamondFlyer wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
Increasing gauge DECREASES pilot jobs if you hold the network constant. It takes 6 pilots to fly two 757 flights BOS-JFK. It takes 3 to fly one 747 flight.


And it takes ZERO Delta pilots to fly Virgin, KLM, or Air France planes.... Which is exactly what Delta management wants, if they get their way.


Putting aside the rhetoric, which doesn't really help anybody, we can't ignore the fact that the joint ventures have enabled flying that would not otherwise be feasible. I mentioned several above, but also look at stuff like SLC-CDG/AMS or the periodic DL flights on ORD-CDG.

I realize that PIT-CDG is not a good route for pilots' egos, but flying is flying, and it's hard for me to find evidence that DL would be flying more flights on its own metal without the joint ventures than it is with them.

klm617 wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:

AA can't make ORD-CDG work year-round, but you think DL could manage DTW-CDG and MSP-CDG with no partner on the other end?


Just for the record Northwest made DTW-CDG work for almost 20 years with no feed on the Paris end.


I'm not sure we can have a constructive conversation if you think the fact that a flight worked in 1996 means that it would work in 2016. Keep in mind, too, that NW dropped MSP-CDG at some point in the early or mid-90s, and I don't think it came back until some time in the Skyteam era.



Northwest never flew MSP-CDG
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
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jetjack74
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Re: Pilot talks at DL have broken down

Mon Sep 12, 2016 5:10 pm

klm617 wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
DiamondFlyer wrote:

And it takes ZERO Delta pilots to fly Virgin, KLM, or Air France planes.... Which is exactly what Delta management wants, if they get their way.


Putting aside the rhetoric, which doesn't really help anybody, we can't ignore the fact that the joint ventures have enabled flying that would not otherwise be feasible. I mentioned several above, but also look at stuff like SLC-CDG/AMS or the periodic DL flights on ORD-CDG.

I realize that PIT-CDG is not a good route for pilots' egos, but flying is flying, and it's hard for me to find evidence that DL would be flying more flights on its own metal without the joint ventures than it is with them.

klm617 wrote:

Just for the record Northwest made DTW-CDG work for almost 20 years with no feed on the Paris end.


I'm not sure we can have a constructive conversation if you think the fact that a flight worked in 1996 means that it would work in 2016. Keep in mind, too, that NW dropped MSP-CDG at some point in the early or mid-90s, and I don't think it came back until some time in the Skyteam era.



Northwest never flew MSP-CDG

We flew MSP-LGW/AMS/FRA/OSL, I don't think CDG flew from MSP.
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Cubsrule
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Re: Pilot talks at DL have broken down

Mon Sep 12, 2016 5:42 pm

klm617 wrote:
Northwest never flew MSP-CDG


You are correct; I was thinking of the direct flight through BOS in the early 90s. So if NW never flew MSP-CDG, why would we conclude that DL could today fly both DTW and MSP-CDG with no joint venture with AF?
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MSPNWA
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Re: Pilot talks at DL have broken down

Mon Sep 12, 2016 6:18 pm

Doesn't sounds like DL management is willing to play ball. The recent WN contract probably won't help their cause. DL pilots can use that for more leverage.

aaexecplat wrote:
Lolz. How are they airmailing the jobs overseas? And the last statement is almost certainly incorrect. The pilots have gotten someretty big salary increases and profit sharing and were they not the only group that kept its pensions? The FAs and other groups took if in the shorts far worse and have received back less, IINM.


Think of it from a big picture view. What' are some of the primary benefits of a JV? Elimination of a competitor and metal-neutral revenue. Eliminating competitors naturally reduces capacity on a whole. Metal-neutral revenue means that lower costs are the driver of who flies the route. It doesn't take a JV to gain the expanded network advantage of a partner. So it's high-risk, low-reward position for pilots, and they know it. That's why they have to bargain just for minimum guarantees in their share of flying.

Another way to look at it is the fleet size. DL

DL pilots were overpaid when they bailed out the company, but to my knowledge they're the main employee group that has not returned to that compensation level since.

Cubsrule wrote:
What routes that DL does not fly do you believe it would be flying today if it had fewer JVs? Surely, Delta pilots would not be flying PHL/PIT/RDU-CDG.

You would see more secondary European markets from DTW/MSP/ATL. Maybe more from JFK as well. And some hub-to-hubs, like ATL-LHR/CDG and JFK-CDG, would see more DL metal. Losses would be limited to some of the hub-to-hubs in the monopoly markets like MSP/DTW/ATL-AMS.

klm617 wrote:
Northwest never flew MSP-CDG


NW launched MSP-CDG shortly before the acquisition.
 
FixemFlyem
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Re: Pilot talks at DL have broken down

Mon Sep 12, 2016 6:41 pm

WN has not inked a deal, just for the record. Their union leadership is currently working on final language to vote on an AIP. (Agreement in Principle)
If the union BOD approves the AIP, then it will be sent to the membership for a vote. No deal has been inked, or even seen yet.
Last edited by FixemFlyem on Tue Sep 13, 2016 1:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
IPFreely
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Re: Pilot talks at DL have broken down

Mon Sep 12, 2016 6:43 pm

MSPNWA wrote:
DL pilots were overpaid when they bailed out the company, but to my knowledge they're the main employee group that has not returned to that compensation level since.


Arguing that they should be overpaid again is not a good argument for the pilots to make.
 
klm617
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Re: Pilot talks at DL have broken down

Mon Sep 12, 2016 7:01 pm

Cubsrule wrote:
klm617 wrote:
Northwest never flew MSP-CDG


You are correct; I was thinking of the direct flight through BOS in the early 90s. So if NW never flew MSP-CDG, why would we conclude that DL could today fly both DTW and MSP-CDG with no joint venture with AF?



I never said both were sustainable I just sad that the Detroit-Paris market was sustainable without the JV and has been for a very long time.
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Hypoxik
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Re: Pilot talks at DL have broken down

Mon Sep 12, 2016 7:54 pm

Traditionally, not a great forum to talk about union contracts... (Not a labor friendly viewership)
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MSPNWA
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Re: Pilot talks at DL have broken down

Mon Sep 12, 2016 8:31 pm

IPFreely wrote:
Arguing that they should be overpaid again is not a good argument for the pilots to make.


If you compare airlines' financial situation then versus now, they're nowhere close to being classified as such.
 
crj200faguy
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Re: Pilot talks at DL have broken down

Mon Sep 12, 2016 9:28 pm

Just give them the profit sharing and increase scope to 110 seats. ;-)
 
winginit
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Re: Pilot talks at DL have broken down

Mon Sep 12, 2016 9:39 pm

MSPNWA wrote:
IPFreely wrote:
Arguing that they should be overpaid again is not a good argument for the pilots to make.


If you compare airlines' financial situation then versus now, they're nowhere close to being classified as such.


Arguing that they should get a long term pay-scale that reflects what is likely a short term financial windfall (on account of fuel) is not a good argument for the pilots to make.
 
SonomaFlyer
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Re: Pilot talks at DL have broken down

Mon Sep 12, 2016 11:33 pm

winginit wrote:
MSPNWA wrote:
IPFreely wrote:
Arguing that they should be overpaid again is not a good argument for the pilots to make.


If you compare airlines' financial situation then versus now, they're nowhere close to being classified as such.


Arguing that they should get a long term pay-scale that reflects what is likely a short term financial windfall (on account of fuel) is not a good argument for the pilots to make.


You need to look further into the financials of DL before making such a statement. They lead the industry in virtually every metric. They are making tons of cash. AA is making a bit more but also dumped/restructured much of their debt so has an artificial advantage.

DL does business differently than the others and its reflected in an investment grade stock, low debt ratio and staggering profits. The pilots gave them huge concessions to supposedly help the company around the time of the "strategic bankruptcy." Given we've seen billions in stock buy-backs, billions in executive bonuses etc, the pilots want their pay and work rules up at industry leading rates. I don't see why people would be hostile to a group seeking their fair cut.

One way or the other, it will happen. DL used to be known as having a really smooth relationship with the pilots union. The MBAs and accountants are to their credit looking for ways to have other airlines fly their customers for less money via joint ventures. They want more productivity and work rules all slanted in favor of the airline. The union is finally waking up to the fact they have huge leverage via the impending pilot retirement wave and are using pressure to get a better deal. More power to em.
 
FixemFlyem
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Re: Pilot talks at DL have broken down

Tue Sep 13, 2016 12:37 am

Just for the record. WN does NOT have a deal inked with their pilots. They currently have an AIP (agreement in principle) After the union BOD reviews the final language, they will decide if it will be sent to the membership for a vote. If it's voted on, and passed, then they will have a deal inked with their pilot group.
Last edited by FixemFlyem on Tue Sep 13, 2016 1:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
deltal1011man
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Re: Pilot talks at DL have broken down

Tue Sep 13, 2016 2:00 am

11725Flyer wrote:
This, or any future government, will never let the DL pilots strike, and DL management knows it.

Who said anything about a strike?

hayzel777 wrote:
Why should pilots get a say in how the airline inks JV's? The management is doing it for the benefit of the airline.

Its called a contract. Its this cool thing between management and labor that governs what each side can do.
Varsity1 wrote:
I'm amazed at what length the DL C office will go to save a dollar. The pilots are mostly asking for a scope clause covering future intl JV's.

This isn't even close to being true. JVs are only a small part of the issues with DL and DALPA.

aaexecplat wrote:

Lolz. How are they airmailing the jobs overseas? And the last statement is almost certainly incorrect. The pilots have gotten someretty big salary increases and profit sharing and were they not the only group that kept its pensions? The FAs and other groups took if in the shorts far worse and have received back less, IINM.

*sigh*
Does anyone on here have the smallest clue what they are talking about?
DALPA kept its pensions? Hell that is some news. Some needs to all PBCG and let them know.....
IPFreely wrote:

Don't forget that Delta also makes money when non-Delta pilots fly Compass, Endeavor, ExpressJet, GoJet, Shuttle America, and Skywest planes.

And this is yet another issue DL/DALPA are having.
Cubsrule wrote:
What routes that DL does not fly do you believe it would be flying today if it had fewer JVs? Surely, Delta pilots would not be flying PHL/PIT/RDU-CDG.

Who said anything about that? See this is what kills me about anet. Its full of a bunch of experts who are experts at talking without getting the story straight.
DALPA isn't asking for no JVs. Hell they aren't even asking for an increase in JV flying. They are simply asking for the status quo.

DELTA on the other hand is asking to change from EASKs to pilot block hours in the AF/KL/AZ JV. Why are they doing this? because the company is out of compliance with the current terms with DALPA and making the switch to block hours puts them into compliance over night.

If you have anything officially from DALPA that they are trying to force DL to drop all JVs I would love to see it......

Cubsrule wrote:

Increasing gauge DECREASES pilot jobs if you hold the network constant. It takes 6 pilots to fly two 757 flights BOS-JFK. It takes 3 to fly one 747 flight.

You are either being over simple or simply don't know what you are talking about.

If DL was doing that, It would be fine. The problem is they are replacing 767 flights with....... AF flying an extra 77W to JFK.


Cubsrule wrote:

I realize that PIT-CDG is not a good route for pilots' egos, but flying is flying, and it's hard for me to find evidence that DL would be flying more flights on its own metal without the joint ventures than it is with them..

Then you need to take a look at the DL Europe network before they started hacking it up and giving flying away.

But even more importantly DL just paid the pilots 30M because they are out of compliance with the existing scope clause. So DL admits they are wrong, but you "don't see it"

30 million is a hell of a lot of money "not to see"

Hypoxik wrote:
Traditionally, not a great forum to talk about union contracts... (Not a labor friendly viewership)

and most people just post garbage and have no real idea what the issues are.

crj200faguy wrote:
Just give them the profit sharing and increase scope to 110 seats. ;-)

Nah....

but it is time to whipsaw the regionals again. They are making to much and not working hard enough :roll:

Varsity1 wrote:

And airmailing the pilot's jobs overseas. The pilots gave up every concession the airline asked for when it was bankrupt. Outside of 'profit sharing', they haven't received anything back.
This is also not remotely close to being true.

They haven't gotten everything back, but no employee at DL has. (even though DALPA is stupidly saying otherwise.)
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 14216
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Re: Pilot talks at DL have broken down

Tue Sep 13, 2016 2:16 am

deltal1011man wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
Increasing gauge DECREASES pilot jobs if you hold the network constant. It takes 6 pilots to fly two 757 flights BOS-JFK. It takes 3 to fly one 747 flight.

You are either being over simple or simply don't know what you are talking about.

If DL was doing that, It would be fine. The problem is they are replacing 767 flights with....... AF flying an extra 77W to JFK.

Cubsrule wrote:

I realize that PIT-CDG is not a good route for pilots' egos, but flying is flying, and it's hard for me to find evidence that DL would be flying more flights on its own metal without the joint ventures than it is with them..

Then you need to take a look at the DL Europe network before they started hacking it up and giving flying away.

But even more importantly DL just paid the pilots 30M because they are out of compliance with the existing scope clause. So DL admits they are wrong, but you "don't see it"

30 million is a hell of a lot of money "not to see"


You don't seem to understand the difference between being out of compliance with an agreement and being harmed. DL is out of compliance with the contract, no question. Does that harm the pilots? As an observer who doesn't really have a dog in the fight, it's hard for me to tell.

Pointing to the history is not terribly helpful either; the competitive landscape has changed dramatically. NW used to fly MSP-OSL. MSP-OSL is never coming back.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
deltal1011man
Posts: 5332
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Re: Pilot talks at DL have broken down

Tue Sep 13, 2016 2:27 am

Cubsrule wrote:
You don't seem to understand the difference between being out of compliance with an agreement and being harmed. DL is out of compliance with the contract, no question. Does that harm the pilots? As an observer who doesn't really have a dog in the fight, it's hard for me to tell.



The last number I have heard is to get back into compliance (assuming AF/KL/AZ stay where they are at) it would mean 6-8 DTW-AMS round trips to do so on the A333.

So you don't think 8 extra intentional flights wouldn't help the pilots?
Cubsrule wrote:
Pointing to the history is not terribly helpful either; the competitive landscape has changed dramatically. NW used to fly MSP-OSL. MSP-OSL is never coming back.

You are kind of cherry picking routes that are questionable(at best). No shit a route like MSP-OSL isn't going to work. I don't see anyone suggesting it.
But DL couldn't take over a LAX-CDG flight? come on.....
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 14216
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Re: Pilot talks at DL have broken down

Tue Sep 13, 2016 2:49 am

deltal1011man wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
You don't seem to understand the difference between being out of compliance with an agreement and being harmed. DL is out of compliance with the contract, no question. Does that harm the pilots? As an observer who doesn't really have a dog in the fight, it's hard for me to tell.



The last number I have heard is to get back into compliance (assuming AF/KL/AZ stay where they are at) it would mean 6-8 DTW-AMS round trips to do so on the A333.

So you don't think 8 extra intentional flights wouldn't help the pilots?


Of course they would. But you are comparing apples and oranges. The point to which I originally responded was about a world without joint ventures, and I see no evidence that that would be better for pilots.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
hayzel777
Posts: 620
Joined: Wed Mar 16, 2016 3:18 am

Re: Pilot talks at DL have broken down

Tue Sep 13, 2016 2:53 am

Management should shift the jobs away from the unions. They are a pain to deal with. Unionized employees are expensive.
 
LAXtoATL
Posts: 596
Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2009 3:55 am

Re: Pilot talks at DL have broken down

Tue Sep 13, 2016 9:55 am

MSPNWA wrote:
And some hub-to-hubs, like ATL-LHR/CDG and JFK-CDG, would see more DL metal. Losses would be limited to some of the hub-to-hubs in the monopoly markets like MSP/DTW/ATL-AMS.

[


You do realize without the JVs, neither LHR or CDG would be hubs and thus no hub-to-hub.
 
bkflyguy
Posts: 218
Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2012 6:25 pm

Re: Pilot talks at DL have broken down

Tue Sep 13, 2016 1:22 pm

hayzel777 wrote:
Management should shift the jobs away from the unions. They are a pain to deal with. Unionized employees are expensive.


Corporate profits have been at all time highs the past several years yet wages for workers have remained flat. Yes, unions are the problem.
 
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Polot
Posts: 10016
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:01 pm

Re: Pilot talks at DL have broken down

Tue Sep 13, 2016 1:36 pm

LAXtoATL wrote:
MSPNWA wrote:
And some hub-to-hubs, like ATL-LHR/CDG and JFK-CDG, would see more DL metal. Losses would be limited to some of the hub-to-hubs in the monopoly markets like MSP/DTW/ATL-AMS.

[


You do realize without the JVs, neither LHR or CDG would be hubs and thus no hub-to-hub.

You don't need a JV to be partners with an airline and use their hub as a "hub". It just means you can't share revenue across the Atlantic. AF/KLM would gladly accept DL's passengers as codeshares, and LHR really isn't a "hub" in the traditional sense- being partners with VS just gives DL access to their loyal passengers in London.
 
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11725Flyer
Posts: 1298
Joined: Mon May 30, 2016 4:51 pm

Re: Pilot talks at DL have broken down

Tue Sep 13, 2016 1:43 pm

deltal1011man wrote:
Who said anything about a strike?


The Delta pilots did. A section called "Strike Preparedness" is on the DL MEC homepage.

https://dal.alpa.org
 
Rdh3e
Posts: 3587
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2011 2:09 pm

Re: Pilot talks at DL have broken down

Tue Sep 13, 2016 1:55 pm

hayzel777 wrote:
Management should shift the jobs away from the unions. They are a pain to deal with. Unionized employees are expensive.

Unions have been a historic force for good operationally in the airlines. Frustrating economically? Sure. But they have done immense good in the industry. Also, Union busting is illegal so take that for what its worth.

bkflyguy wrote:
Corporate profits have been at all time highs the past several years yet wages for workers have remained flat. Yes, unions are the problem.

Actually wages are up pretty consistently over the last 5 years. The problem with these contracts is that it looks like people aren't getting raises, and yet everyone who isn't topped out is getting an annual raise. At this point with the retirements nearly every pilot is getting an annual raise through longevity and upgrades without raising the base rates in the contract.
 
rumorboy
Posts: 295
Joined: Sun Aug 25, 2002 1:06 am

Re: Pilot talks at DL have broken down

Tue Sep 13, 2016 2:18 pm

Bottom line is UAL and AMR recently increased their total pilot compensation. SWA is now in the process of increasing their total pilot compensation. Their process will probably take them till NOV to ratify it. Once that is done, you'll see DAL and ALPA come to an agreement. Their is no need for DAL to rush this. ALPA knows it to. It's called pattern bargaining. It's gone on like this for 70+ years. They will have a TA by the end of the year. Then the market rates for pilots will be reset once again for this cycle.
 
winginit
Posts: 2626
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2013 9:23 pm

Re: Pilot talks at DL have broken down

Tue Sep 13, 2016 2:42 pm

bkflyguy wrote:
hayzel777 wrote:
Management should shift the jobs away from the unions. They are a pain to deal with. Unionized employees are expensive.


Corporate profits have been at all time highs the past several years yet wages for workers have remained flat. Yes, unions are the problem.


That is not even remotely close to being accurate in the aviation sector. Wages are up across the board within almost every single work group.
 
klm617
Posts: 4676
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:57 pm

Re: Pilot talks at DL have broken down

Tue Sep 13, 2016 3:13 pm

So if Delta paid 30 million because they were out of compliance is that with the jv flying or the Delta connection flying. If it is just for the jv flying than it would be easy to correct that just revert all the ATL jv flights back to Delta metal and that should put them back within the guidelines of the contract. But there must be something for them to gain if they are willing to pay 30 million out because they are in violation of a contract. This could even be Delta say we don't care about the contract we are going to do what we want anyway even if it costs us a far amount of money.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
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tb727
Posts: 2170
Joined: Thu Jun 30, 2005 1:40 pm

Re: Pilot talks at DL have broken down

Tue Sep 13, 2016 5:10 pm

hayzel777 wrote:
Management should shift the jobs away from the unions. They are a pain to deal with. Unionized employees are expensive.


Well you can't legally do that, so...

What is your solution? Everyone to agree and sing kumbuya together and come to mutually agreeable terms in a couple of days. That's nearly impossible with just 2 people, DL has over 13,000 pilots. It's a business and good or not, it's a necessary thing in industry to have them. I worked for years as a non-union pilot and was the go to guy for the airline as the pilot rep to talk to everyone up to the owner of the company. I tried and tried to improve safety in combating fatigue and not being on call 24 hours a day and having hard international duty day limits. I got frustrated and left because it didn't get anywhere. Now at a union company, I feel that I have much more support when it comes to issues like safety. I don't have to worry about losing my job if I don't want to fly a plane after being up for 24-30 hours, you can't even be remotely put in that situation with a union. It's not all about money even though it is a huge part of it. It's about quality of life, retirement, safety and job security for the group as a whole.

Times are good right now in aviation for the first time in a long time. Pilots know and expect to be the first group of employees to take a pay cut when times are bad.

So go get them Delta pilots, you're a powerhouse and you will raise the bar for everyone.
Too lazy to work, too scared to steal!

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