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KarelXWB
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Air France 787-9 cabin layout revealed

Wed Sep 14, 2016 8:52 pm

Air France' 787-9 cabin layout "leaked" out to the internet today. Plane will feature 276 seats in three classes:

- 30 pax Business Class 1-2-1 @ 42" pitch
- 21 pax Premium Economy 2-3-2 @ 40" pitch
- 225 pax Economy Class 3-3-3 @ 31" pitch

Article
http://tylerbirth.boardingarea.com/excl ... ir-france/

Link contains a seat map.
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Polot
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Re: Air France 787-9 cabin layout revealed

Wed Sep 14, 2016 8:55 pm

As I mentioned in the 787 production thread, a perfect 1 to 1 replacement for the A340s, which are 30J/21W/224Y (275 seats total).
 
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787fan8
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Re: Air France 787-9 cabin layout revealed

Wed Sep 14, 2016 9:01 pm

I guess this means AF will take the 787 after all. Could we see a similar configuration on their A350's?
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EddieDude
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Re: Air France 787-9 cabin layout revealed

Thu Sep 15, 2016 12:22 am

Cool! So should we expect the 789s to start taking over the A343 routes? What are they right now?
Upcoming flights:
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wingman
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Re: Air France 787-9 cabin layout revealed

Thu Sep 15, 2016 12:32 am

We are witnessing the transformation of F and J into J and PE. With AA making the same move that now makes at least 5-6? leading carriers taking this approach (AA, AF, NZ, SQ, AC..anyone else?)
 
DigitalJoker
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Re: Air France 787-9 cabin layout revealed

Thu Sep 15, 2016 1:40 am

Comparing with 787-9 from New Zealand - they put 302 seats on the same plane.....

Configuration: Rows 1 to 6 (18 seats)

Seat pitch*: Fully lie-flat bed

Premium Economy
Configuration: Rows 23 to 25 (21 seats)

Seat pitch*: 41” (104cm)

Economy
Configuration: Rows 34 to 65 (263 seats)

Seat pitch*: 30 - 32” (78 - 81cm)
 
mcogator
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Re: Air France 787-9 cabin layout revealed

Thu Sep 15, 2016 1:54 am

EddieDude wrote:
Cool! So should we expect the 789s to start taking over the A343 routes? What are they right now?


DTW is the only one I can think of in the US.
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ikolkyo
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Re: Air France 787-9 cabin layout revealed

Thu Sep 15, 2016 2:00 am

Perfect A340 replacement, would love to see it here in DTW!
 
910A
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Re: Air France 787-9 cabin layout revealed

Thu Sep 15, 2016 3:32 am

Polot wrote:
As I mentioned in the 787 production thread, a perfect 1 to 1 replacement for the A340s, which are 30J/21W/224Y (275 seats total).


From the passenger standpoint in coach, the 787 isn't a perfect replacement for the A340.
 
LY777
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Re: Air France 787-9 cabin layout revealed

Thu Sep 15, 2016 5:37 am

31" in Y and 9-abreast... Thanks AF for caring for your Y passengers :evil:
Flown:717,727,732,733,734,735,738,73H,742/744/748,752,753,762/2ER/763/3ER,772/77E/773/77W, 788, 789, DC8,DC10,E190,E195,MD83,MD88, L1011, A3B2,A319,A320-100/200,A321,A332/A333,A343,A388
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Air France 787-9 cabin layout revealed

Thu Sep 15, 2016 8:15 am

LY777 wrote:
31" in Y and 9-abreast... Thanks AF for caring for your Y passengers :evil:

It's only giving them exactly what they, via their wallets, have asked for.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
smi0006
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Re: Air France 787-9 cabin layout revealed

Thu Sep 15, 2016 8:41 am

DigitalJoker wrote:
Comparing with 787-9 from New Zealand - they put 302 seats on the same plane.....

Configuration: Rows 1 to 6 (18 seats)

Seat pitch*: Fully lie-flat bed

Premium Economy
Configuration: Rows 23 to 25 (21 seats)

Seat pitch*: 41” (104cm)

Economy
Configuration: Rows 34 to 65 (263 seats)

Seat pitch*: 30 - 32” (78 - 81cm)


But that's the current configuration, only two more to be delivered like that- then they got to 28J I think, 30W.

This looks exactly how I imagine QF will configure their ULR 789, except an extra row of J and W.

Be fascinating to compare the costs of the A340 and 789 for AF. Including ownership - loans, finance, back of house savings, etc...
 
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KarelXWB
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Re: Air France 787-9 cabin layout revealed

Thu Sep 15, 2016 8:44 am

DigitalJoker wrote:
Comparing with 787-9 from New Zealand - they put 302 seats on the same plane.....

Configuration: Rows 1 to 6 (18 seats)

Seat pitch*: Fully lie-flat bed

Premium Economy
Configuration: Rows 23 to 25 (21 seats)

Seat pitch*: 41” (104cm)

Economy
Configuration: Rows 34 to 65 (263 seats)

Seat pitch*: 30 - 32” (78 - 81cm)


Looking at both seat maps, the AZ Premium Economy seats are located before the second door while the AF Premium Economy seats are located behind the second door. The AF business class section is significant larger than AZ.
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
stratocruiser
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Re: Air France 787-9 cabin layout revealed

Thu Sep 15, 2016 8:59 am

KarelXWB wrote:
Air France' 787-9 cabin layout "leaked" out to the internet today. Plane will feature 276 seats in three classes:

- 30 pax Business Class 1-2-1 @ 42" pitch
- 21 pax Premium Economy 2-3-2 @ 40" PITCH
- 225 pax Economy Class 3-3-3 @ 31" pitch

Article
http://tylerbirth.boardingarea.com/excl ... ir-france/

Link contains a seat map.


Business Class at 42" pitch? I know this is what it shows on the linked seat map too, but surely that cannot be correct?
 
oldannyboy
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Re: Air France 787-9 cabin layout revealed

Thu Sep 15, 2016 9:10 am

wingman wrote:
We are witnessing the transformation of F and J into J and PE.


Correct. Back to '80s again, when First was 2-2-2 @ 60-something, J was exactly was PE is now, and economy..well..that pretty much stayed the same.
 
oldannyboy
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Re: Air France 787-9 cabin layout revealed

Thu Sep 15, 2016 9:21 am

LAX772LR wrote:
LY777 wrote:
31" in Y and 9-abreast... Thanks AF for caring for your Y passengers :evil:

It's only giving them exactly what they, via their wallets, have asked for.



Sorry, but I beg to disagree.

I find this statement one of A.Net's fixtures. It keeps reappearing, again and again. And I find it a bit irritating. It's as if the A.Net populace was always flying F and J everywhere. C'mon...!
Most people who have their tickets paid out of their own pocket will inevitably fly Y. Most people, not everybody. Even I, a poor old sod, have sometimes paid for the upgrade on a long haul because I felt like it, and wanted to treat myself and be pampered. But most times, 9 out of 10 it's gonna be Y for me.
You will find that J (and F for that matter) is in most cases fiiled by business travelers who have their tkts paid for by their companies.
It's not as if the "lesser poor people" who populate the back of the ship have taken to mass medias and have asked for such crazy low prices so that the poor airlines have had to install hard wood benches as a last resort.....
It's simply an evolution of market dynamics. Prices, at least in Y, can now be cheap(er) for a whole wack of different reasons, including competition, number of options and sheer number of seats available, different pricing structures, more efficient aeroplanes...and... lots of high revenue seats up-front frequently filled by corporate travelers, who generate tons of money for the airlines.
Airlines putting 3-3-3 on a 787, or 3-4-3 on a 777 are simply trying to maximize revenue, which is smart, and the obvious thing to do. End of story. And I for one I am one of the few who are happy to fly 3-4-3 on a 777. I just take reality for what it is.
 
LondonCity
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Re: Air France 787-9 cabin layout revealed

Thu Sep 15, 2016 9:55 am

stratocruiser - 42 ins would appear to be correct for J class.

According to the KLM seating plan (its B787 also has x30 J seats) it is also 42 ins.

https://www.klm.com/travel/eu_en/prepar ... /787-9.htm
 
qf002
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Re: Air France 787-9 cabin layout revealed

Thu Sep 15, 2016 10:30 am

stratocruiser wrote:
Business Class at 42" pitch? I know this is what it shows on the linked seat map too, but surely that cannot be correct?


The rows are always much closer together in herringbone/staggered layouts. Pitch doesn't take the overlap between rows into account.
 
LY777
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Re: Air France 787-9 cabin layout revealed

Thu Sep 15, 2016 11:13 am

oldannyboy wrote:
Airlines putting 3-3-3 on a 787, or 3-4-3 on a 777 are simply trying to maximize revenue, which is smart, and the obvious thing to do. End of story. And I for one I am one of the few who are happy to fly 3-4-3 on a 777. I just take reality for what it is.


I was not angry at the 3-3-3 config on AF787 because it has become the norm. I was disappointed by the fact that they removed one inch in Y (AF has 32" pitch on their long haul a/c).
Flown:717,727,732,733,734,735,738,73H,742/744/748,752,753,762/2ER/763/3ER,772/77E/773/77W, 788, 789, DC8,DC10,E190,E195,MD83,MD88, L1011, A3B2,A319,A320-100/200,A321,A332/A333,A343,A388
 
LY777
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Re: Air France 787-9 cabin layout revealed

Thu Sep 15, 2016 11:14 am

I hope AF won't go 3-4-3 on their A350s or 3-5-3 on their A380s
Flown:717,727,732,733,734,735,738,73H,742/744/748,752,753,762/2ER/763/3ER,772/77E/773/77W, 788, 789, DC8,DC10,E190,E195,MD83,MD88, L1011, A3B2,A319,A320-100/200,A321,A332/A333,A343,A388
 
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Re: Air France 787-9 cabin layout revealed

Thu Sep 15, 2016 11:31 am

oldannyboy wrote:

Sorry, but I beg to disagree.

I find this statement one of A.Net's fixtures. It keeps reappearing, again and again. And I find it a bit irritating. It's as if the A.Net populace was always flying F and J everywhere. C'mon...!
Most people who have their tickets paid out of their own pocket will inevitably fly Y. Most people, not everybody. Even I, a poor old sod, have sometimes paid for the upgrade on a long haul because I felt like it, and wanted to treat myself and be pampered. But most times, 9 out of 10 it's gonna be Y for me.
You will find that J (and F for that matter) is in most cases fiiled by business travelers who have their tkts paid for by their companies.
It's not as if the "lesser poor people" who populate the back of the ship have taken to mass medias and have asked for such crazy low prices so that the poor airlines have had to install hard wood benches as a last resort.....
It's simply an evolution of market dynamics. Prices, at least in Y, can now be cheap(er) for a whole wack of different reasons, including competition, number of options and sheer number of seats available, different pricing structures, more efficient aeroplanes...and... lots of high revenue seats up-front frequently filled by corporate travelers, who generate tons of money for the airlines.
Airlines putting 3-3-3 on a 787, or 3-4-3 on a 777 are simply trying to maximize revenue, which is smart, and the obvious thing to do. End of story. And I for one I am one of the few who are happy to fly 3-4-3 on a 777. I just take reality for what it is.


In the booming world economy before the last financial crisis, global corporations and consultants were filling the business and first class seats. Now these companies have cut back, and people fill the front seats with miles, that is not as profitable.
 
luftaom
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Re: Air France 787-9 cabin layout revealed

Thu Sep 15, 2016 11:51 am

Whichever way it's spun - 9 abreast 787s and 10 abreast 777s are horrible. Sure it's the new norm - but that doesn't mean you have to like it. I think that the only way to combat it is to vote with your feet (and tell the airlines that you are doing so because of the 9 abreast 787s and 10 abreast 777s).

I do a significant amount of travel - a mixture of business and personal, short and long haul and I'm constantly amazed at the numbers of very obviously infrequent and self-funded travelers in the premium cabins on long haul flights.
airliners.net's passenger - simultaneously connecting and flying direct.
 
rocketPower
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Re: Air France 787-9 cabin layout revealed

Thu Sep 15, 2016 12:08 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
LY777 wrote:
31" in Y and 9-abreast... Thanks AF for caring for your Y passengers :evil:

It's only giving them exactly what they, via their wallets, have asked for.


Are we actually seeing lower prices with 9 across 787 and 10 across 777s? I really don't see it, I really don't know what magical site you are visiting getting such low prices due to the new configs..

Not sure where people get this idea that the public 'chose' this when all we benefit from is a sore ass and squished shoulders at the same price or more!

That being said, hope to see it replace the A343 at YUL as a spotter. Love watching it, will ignore what's inside.
rocketPower

Life is about enjoying being uncomfortable. If you're complacent, something is wrong!
 
AsiaTravel
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Re: Air France 787-9 cabin layout revealed

Thu Sep 15, 2016 12:08 pm

LY777 wrote:
I hope AF won't go 3-4-3 on their A350s or 3-5-3 on their A380s


Definitely not, I can guarantee that, AF isn't a Low Cost!
 
oldannyboy
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Re: Air France 787-9 cabin layout revealed

Thu Sep 15, 2016 12:25 pm

rocketPower wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
LY777 wrote:
31" in Y and 9-abreast... Thanks AF for caring for your Y passengers :evil:

It's only giving them exactly what they, via their wallets, have asked for.


Are we actually seeing lower prices with 9 across 787 and 10 across 777s? I really don't see it, I really don't know what magical site you are visiting getting such low prices due to the new configs..


Of course not! It's just one of the usual stupid A.net's mantras!

Not sure where people get this idea that the public 'chose' this when all we benefit from is a sore ass and squished shoulders at the same price or more!


Again..it's just a mantra.."parler pour parler"... and by the way, you have to blame somebody for feeling uncomfortable on a 10-across 777, so there you go: you bash the poor folks who decided with their wallets!
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Air France 787-9 cabin layout revealed

Thu Sep 15, 2016 4:30 pm

oldannyboy wrote:
I find this statement one of A.Net's fixtures. It keeps reappearing, again and again.

Of course it does, and with good reason: because it's an accurate assessment of the situation at hand.


oldannyboy wrote:
And I find it a bit irritating. It's as if the A.Net populace was always flying F and J everywhere. C'mon...!

What you find irritating, and what A.net people do/don't do, is completely irrelevant to the truth of the concept at hand.


oldannyboy wrote:
It's not as if the "lesser poor people" who populate the back of the ship have taken to mass medias and have asked for such crazy low prices

Which is precisely why the words "via their wallets" were added to the statement... actions speak louder than words, and spending is the loudest action.

Nearly every time the carriers have thrown a bone to the entire Y cabin, they've lost their shirt as a result, in either direct cost or opportunity cost. Remember MRTC? Remember back during the advent of bag fees how CO and DL held out, but noticed that there was no defection by affected customers from carriers who'd already switched?

Believe it or not, and like it or not-- that's speech. And the airlines were listening.
They'd do a disservice to their primary objective, if they didn't react accordingly.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
oldannyboy
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Re: Air France 787-9 cabin layout revealed

Thu Sep 15, 2016 5:05 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
oldannyboy wrote:
I find this statement one of A.Net's fixtures. It keeps reappearing, again and again.

Of course it does, and with good reason: because it's an accurate assessment of the situation at hand
.

..it's not.. sorry... it's one of those A.net things that don't necessarily become true the more you say them, or the more people on this forum keep repeating...

oldannyboy wrote:
And I find it a bit irritating. It's as if the A.Net populace was always flying F and J everywhere. C'mon...!

What you find irritating, and what A.net people do/don't do, is completely irrelevant to the truth of the concept at hand.

it's a free forum so I'll say what I think and what matters to me or what I find relevant, etc.. it's the nature of the discussion.. I agree with my thoughts might be irrelevant to the concept...but.... almost nothing of what is said on here is factual, and almost everything else is based on assumptions, fantasies, and little more... :-)


oldannyboy wrote:
It's not as if the "lesser poor people" who populate the back of the ship have taken to mass medias and have asked for such crazy low prices

Which is precisely why the words "via their wallets" were added to the statement... actions speak louder than words, and spending is the loudest action.

Nearly every time the carriers have thrown a bone to the entire Y cabin, they've lost their shirt as a result, in either direct cost or opportunity cost. Remember MRTC? Remember back during the advent of bag fees how CO and DL held out, but noticed that there was no defection by affected customers from carriers who'd already switched?

Believe it or not, and like it or not-- that's speech. And the airlines were listening.
They'd do a disservice to their primary objective, if they didn't react accordingly.


Nope. It's not a question of "bones" being thrown at the stupid cattle in the back.. it's more like the "legacies" have simply "caught" the LCC bug, claiming that unwanted new competition was killing them, and have thus reacted via the exact same tactics used by LCCs. But... prices have not really dropped....
 
oldannyboy
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Re: Air France 787-9 cabin layout revealed

Thu Sep 15, 2016 5:13 pm

I keep looking at the comments here, and.... I mean, seriously folks, did someone reeeeally expect AF to go 8-across on the 787?..
 
wingman
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Re: Air France 787-9 cabin layout revealed

Thu Sep 15, 2016 5:16 pm

luftaom wrote:
Whichever way it's spun - 9 abreast 787s and 10 abreast 777s are horrible. Sure it's the new norm - but that doesn't mean you have to like it. I think that the only way to combat it is to vote with your feet (and tell the airlines that you are doing so because of the 9 abreast 787s and 10 abreast 777s).


Et voila, people have voted with both their feet and their wallets and I can only interpret the landslide results as..it's not as horrible as you claim. I like an extra half inch myself, who doesn't right? And yet millions of new people are plying the airways, traveling en masse from developing markets. And legacy carriers getting their teeth kicked in by LCCs now have a way of competing and offering same standards/prices as the new entrants. So you can tear your eyes out screaming 17.2" or 17.5" is nothing short of water boarding while 18" is divine intervention and THE perfect seat width measurement ever created. Sorry chief, market says otherwise.
 
commavia
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Re: Air France 787-9 cabin layout revealed

Thu Sep 15, 2016 5:17 pm

oldannyboy wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
It's only giving them exactly what they, via their wallets, have asked for.



Sorry, but I beg to disagree.

I find this statement one of A.Net's fixtures. It keeps reappearing, again and again. And I find it a bit irritating. It's as if the A.Net populace was always flying F and J everywhere. C'mon...!
Most people who have their tickets paid out of their own pocket will inevitably fly Y. Most people, not everybody. Even I, a poor old sod, have sometimes paid for the upgrade on a long haul because I felt like it, and wanted to treat myself and be pampered. But most times, 9 out of 10 it's gonna be Y for me.
You will find that J (and F for that matter) is in most cases fiiled by business travelers who have their tkts paid for by their companies.
It's not as if the "lesser poor people" who populate the back of the ship have taken to mass medias and have asked for such crazy low prices so that the poor airlines have had to install hard wood benches as a last resort.....
It's simply an evolution of market dynamics. Prices, at least in Y, can now be cheap(er) for a whole wack of different reasons, including competition, number of options and sheer number of seats available, different pricing structures, more efficient aeroplanes...and... lots of high revenue seats up-front frequently filled by corporate travelers, who generate tons of money for the airlines.
Airlines putting 3-3-3 on a 787, or 3-4-3 on a 777 are simply trying to maximize revenue, which is smart, and the obvious thing to do. End of story. And I for one I am one of the few who are happy to fly 3-4-3 on a 777. I just take reality for what it is.


I think LAX772LR was exactly correct. What the traveling public has demonstrated - consistently, time and again - with their behavior is that most of them are unwilling to pay a premium for a substantially differentiated experience in Y. Whereas in F and J, a higher level of product and service differentiation is economically feasible because airlines are able to monetize this differentiation in the form of higher fares, Y customers - as a group - consistently make booking decisions based on price and if not price alone, than certainly price above all else. As such, airlines have no choice but to reasonably conclude that the best way to appeal to customers' desires is to minimize cost so as to be able to minimize price - and that means, among other things, denser cabins. People can complain all they want about one aspect of an airline's Y offering or another - they have been literally since the beginning of the industry, from meals in the past to legroom, boarding or baggage fees now - but the reality is that what people say matters little. What matters is what they are actually willing to pay for.
Last edited by commavia on Thu Sep 15, 2016 5:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Polot
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Re: Air France 787-9 cabin layout revealed

Thu Sep 15, 2016 5:17 pm

oldannyboy wrote:
Nope. It's not a question of "bones" being thrown at the stupid cattle in the back.. it's more like the "legacies" have simply "caught" the LCC bug, claiming that unwanted new competition was killing them, and have thus reacted via the exact same tactics used by LCCs. But... prices have not really dropped....

No, but they stayed rather steady when oil prices skyrocketed.

Right now AF needs to find ways to cut costs as evident by anyone who looks at their financial statements. Increasing seating density, while keeping ticket prices the same, is one way of doing so.

Or they can raise the prices and pray that people are willing to pay for the increased space over the competition...but history doesn't really suggest they do. I'm not exactly sure why we are complaining about AF and space. AF was one of the first major airlines to adopt 10Y in their 777s, and we are surprised/complaining about them knocking off an inch from their seat pitch (which may be made up by slimmer seats anyways)?
Last edited by Polot on Thu Sep 15, 2016 5:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Air France 787-9 cabin layout revealed

Thu Sep 15, 2016 5:19 pm

oldannyboy wrote:
it's more like the "legacies" have simply "caught" the LCC bug,

Because THAT'S what Y-pax spending patterns as a whole were demanding! You're making my case for me.

And I know that this is probably your nightmare, but essentially all Y cabins are going to be NK a few years and a few recessions from now. And it won't be just USA carriers.

You're dreaming if you believe otherwise. The evolutionary direction is clear as day.



oldannyboy wrote:
But... prices have not really dropped.

Dropped? No.
Remained low, in defiance of market principles that affect nearly all over commodities? Yes.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
incitatus
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Re: Air France 787-9 cabin layout revealed

Thu Sep 15, 2016 5:25 pm

rocketPower wrote:

Are we actually seeing lower prices with 9 across 787 and 10 across 777s? I really don't see it, I really don't know what magical site you are visiting getting such low prices due to the new configs..


Price and cost of a product are loosely related, so you are not going to see what you are hoping to see so directly. Over the years the price of an airline ticket has steadily slid down. Costs have to follow, otherwise airlines go out of business.

But if you look at particular airlines, for example, Norwegian, their strategy is built around dense cabins. One could argue 9-across 787s is an enabler of their strategy.
I do not consume Murdoch products including the Wall Street Journal
 
Austin787
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Re: Air France 787-9 cabin layout revealed

Thu Sep 15, 2016 6:49 pm

If Y passengers were willing to pay 20% more, how would Air France configure their 787s?
1) 8 across and 33" pitch
2) Stay with 9 across, 31" pitch. Then charge 20% more for the same product and pocket the difference

Based on airlines' actions in the Y cabin, I think #2 is more likely.
 
stratocruiser
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Re: Air France 787-9 cabin layout revealed

Thu Sep 15, 2016 7:46 pm

qf002 wrote:
stratocruiser wrote:
Business Class at 42" pitch? I know this is what it shows on the linked seat map too, but surely that cannot be correct?


The rows are always much closer together in herringbone/staggered layouts. Pitch doesn't take the overlap between rows into account.


OK I get that! But looking at Seat Guru, there clearly is no uniformity in how the pitch is measured as some business class herringbone layouts such as on Virgin A330-300s are described as having 79" pitch and others such as KLM 787-900 have 42" pitch. Some indicate the bed length (eg Virgin) but others such as KLM don't, which perhaps may not be ideal from a marketing viewpoint!
 
luftaom
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Re: Air France 787-9 cabin layout revealed

Thu Sep 15, 2016 7:58 pm

wingman wrote:


Et voila, people have voted with both their feet and their wallets and I can only interpret the landslide results as..it's not as horrible as you claim. I like an extra half inch myself, who doesn't right? And yet millions of new people are plying the airways, traveling en masse from developing markets. And legacy carriers getting their teeth kicked in by LCCs now have a way of competing and offering same standards/prices as the new entrants. So you can tear your eyes out screaming 17.2" or 17.5" is nothing short of water boarding while 18" is divine intervention and THE perfect seat width measurement ever created. Sorry chief, market says otherwise.[/quote]

Are you saying that because it's the norm and plenty of people pay for it that one can't say that it's horrible?

I'm not the only one who doesn't like it. BA initially went 10 abreast in select 777s and then swapped to 9 abreast in response to customer feedback. They are also now making a song and dance of tweaking the seats in the 789s to try and squeeze a little bit extra room to make it a little better for customers. American has 9 abreast at the front of the Y cabin on some of their 777s (for which you either have to pay a surcharge or have a suitably high status card). I personally won't fly on a 10 abreast 777 or 9 abreast 787 again. I'm happy to (and do) pay extra to avoid them. If you are 5ft 7 and 70kgs then a 9 abreast 787 at 31 inches is probably not that much different to a 9 abreast 777 at 32 or 33 inches.

I'm also mindful of the economics. Airlines are probably the worst business ever. Massive fixed costs, low return on capital employed and subject to all manner of external shocks over which they have absolutely no control (weather, disease, fuel prices etc). If you can squeeze additional seats into your planes and the market will tolerate it - then you should absolutely do it. Doesn't mean that the seats aren't horrible.

Chief? Sorry you've lost me - what does that mean?
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wingman
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Re: Air France 787-9 cabin layout revealed

Thu Sep 15, 2016 9:37 pm

It's just a colloquialism (Chief), like saying "mate". And everyone has the right to complain, I'm only pointing out that the voting and actual results are in favor of the set-ups because the airlines are doing them and the free peoples of the world are packing in. Fast food is horrible too and I don't like to eat it given the choice and the budget, but the crap keeps stuffing its way past millions of smiling mouths. The principles of freedom and economics lead to shock and dismay every day. Over in non-av people are already in shock that millions of half-wits are lining up to buy iPhones without a jack, and yet there it is.

One man's torture is another's joyous long-haul adventure of a lifetime.
 
Beatyair
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Re: Air France 787-9 cabin layout revealed

Fri Sep 16, 2016 5:40 am

I guess they are taking them. My guess is that they must have been fed good data from KLM before making the decision.
 
luftaom
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Re: Air France 787-9 cabin layout revealed

Fri Sep 16, 2016 4:43 pm

wingman wrote:
One man's torture is another's joyous long-haul adventure of a lifetime.


I agree with that.

2 slightly O/T comments picking up on comments above:

1) My prediction for the next 4 or 5 years is that we will see a further squeezing of seat widths and pitches for the vast majority of economy seats (much the same as the AF 787s) but a growing trend towards a few rows of something between the super squeezy Y and official premium economy - something like the current 9 abreast seat seating in 777s with a 33-34 inch pitch.It won't be a new class per say but it will only be available to (some combination of) those paying a hefty seat selection premium, those on Y or B fares and those having at least mid level status. There are a lot of people who can't or won't pay for premium economy proper but who will gladly stump up £100+ pounds for a transatlantic seat which they don't have to shoe horn themselves into. Depending on the airline involved and the configuration of exit doors, galley locations etc - it might be possible to do it with the loss of only 1 seat per row (i.e. the 10th seat across).

2) I've worked at a number of companies large and small, listed and non-listed and there are always 2 issues when it comes to corporate travel spend - policy and budget.

The policy dictates which airline and class you have to travel on and in. I've only ever seen one policy which permitted anyone to fly first class (and that was just the chairman of a listed organisation - not even the CEO was allowed to fly first - although this was pre GFC so I would expect the Chairman's exemption to have been removed). The policies typically have two tiers. The first for upper-middle management and above and the second for everyone else. The upper-middle management policy will generally say something like economy for under 3 or 4 hours, and then business over that - potentially with a premium economy timeframe in the middle (unless it is a redeye with work to do the next day where you can generally get an exemption). The everyone else policy will usually be set at the 8 or so hour mark (with no red eye exemption).

Whilst the policy may dictate what airline and class of service you get, the budget will dictate whether you actually get to go.

When times are particularly good the budget is plentiful and policies get relaxed (so higher classes of service more often). When organisations need to cut costs, the first thing to get slashed is the budget with a subsequent 'razor gang' then changing the boomtime largess policy to something slightly more shareholder friendly.

2008-2012 (ish - depending on country/industry) saw the budgets slashed and the policies tightened. 2012-2015/16 saw the budgets increased but the policies remain unchanged. In the last 6 or 7 months I get the sense that budgets have been constrained quite a bit and we are now seeing this pain being felt by the airlines.

In my line of work (professional services) - unless you are travelling for a pitch, conference or internal firm business you are invariably travelling with a direct chargeback - I've noticed a real trend of larger clients specifying in the engagement that you have to follow their policies when travelling on their account and then having a special policy applying only to their service providers which when it is really aggressive says something like 'best economy fare of the day on any carrier' sometimes with a (contractual) prohibition on accumulating frequent flyer miles.
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glbltrvlr
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Re: Air France 787-9 cabin layout revealed

Fri Sep 16, 2016 5:03 pm

luftaom wrote:
The policies typically have two tiers. The first for upper-middle management and above and the second for everyone else. The upper-middle management policy will generally say something like economy for under 3 or 4 hours, and then business over that - potentially with a premium economy timeframe in the middle (unless it is a redeye with work to do the next day where you can generally get an exemption). The everyone else policy will usually be set at the 8 or so hour mark (with no red eye exemption).


I work for a Fortune 50 company and I can tell you that was true up to about 15 years ago. We now have a blanket policy - when flying commercial, everyone flies coach. And that includes the 24 hours trips from the US to India.
 
winginit
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Re: Air France 787-9 cabin layout revealed

Fri Sep 16, 2016 5:14 pm

glbltrvlr wrote:
I work for a Fortune 50 company and I can tell you that was true up to about 15 years ago. We now have a blanket policy - when flying commercial, everyone flies coach. And that includes the 24 hours trips from the US to India.


What a garbage travel policy - that is certainly not the norm for a Fortune 50 even today although time thresholds (10+ hours, 13+ hours, etc.) for premium are far more common than they were.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Air France 787-9 cabin layout revealed

Fri Sep 16, 2016 5:47 pm

Austin787 wrote:
If Y passengers were willing to pay 20% more, how would Air France configure their 787s?
1) 8 across and 33" pitch
2) Stay with 9 across, 31" pitch. Then charge 20% more for the same product and pocket the difference

Based on airlines' actions in the Y cabin, I think #2 is more likely.


Definitely the second.
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ojjunior
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Re: Air France 787-9 cabin layout revealed

Fri Sep 16, 2016 6:27 pm

OK then, but I still didn't see any info about the routes to be used....
Anyone? But please, relevant info, not dreams.
 
anstar
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Re: Air France 787-9 cabin layout revealed

Fri Sep 16, 2016 7:37 pm

DigitalJoker wrote:
Comparing with 787-9 from New Zealand - they put 302 seats on the same plane.....


But NZ have a less premium config compared to AF. Also they have less premium seats than say VS who have 31J seats in their 789's (the same J seat as NZ).
 
grbauc
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Re: Air France 787-9 cabin layout revealed

Fri Sep 16, 2016 7:41 pm

b747400erf wrote:
oldannyboy wrote:

Sorry, but I beg to disagree.

I find this statement one of A.Net's fixtures. It keeps reappearing, again and again. And I find it a bit irritating. It's as if the A.Net populace was always flying F and J everywhere. C'mon...!
Most people who have their tickets paid out of their own pocket will inevitably fly Y. Most people, not everybody. Even I, a poor old sod, have sometimes paid for the upgrade on a long haul because I felt like it, and wanted to treat myself and be pampered. But most times, 9 out of 10 it's gonna be Y for me.
You will find that J (and F for that matter) is in most cases fiiled by business travelers who have their tkts paid for by their companies.
It's not as if the "lesser poor people" who populate the back of the ship have taken to mass medias and have asked for such crazy low prices so that the poor airlines have had to install hard wood benches as a last resort.....
It's simply an evolution of market dynamics. Prices, at least in Y, can now be cheap(er) for a whole wack of different reasons, including competition, number of options and sheer number of seats available, different pricing structures, more efficient aeroplanes...and... lots of high revenue seats up-front frequently filled by corporate travelers, who generate tons of money for the airlines.
Airlines putting 3-3-3 on a 787, or 3-4-3 on a 777 are simply trying to maximize revenue, which is smart, and the obvious thing to do. End of story. And I for one I am one of the few who are happy to fly 3-4-3 on a 777. I just take reality for what it is.


In the booming world economy before the last financial crisis, global corporations and consultants were filling the business and first class seats. Now these companies have cut back, and people fill the front seats with miles, that is not as profitable.


Maybe that is your guys view but I find many up front with me pay like I do. Especially now that F/j discount fares are not so sky high are paying. Case and point lax to Okc nov 25th returning 28th coach $450-$550 FC is $950 well worth the price imop.
 
pabloeing
Posts: 594
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Re: Air France 787-9 cabin layout revealed

Sat Sep 17, 2016 8:00 am

¿How many AF B787-9 on order?
 
FlySSC
Posts: 5334
Joined: Tue Aug 12, 2003 1:38 am

Re: Air France 787-9 cabin layout revealed

Sat Sep 17, 2016 8:18 am

I don't really get why so many people seem so offense because AF has a 31" pitch in Economy on its B789…

LH has the same in its B747-8, as well as BA in its B744 and many more airlines around the world….

Economy is Economy … you get what you've paid for and 31" has now become a "standard" in Y for many years now.

Now for more information, AF should start its B787 by mid January 2017 on

Day1 : CDG-LHR-CDG-CAI
Day2 : CAI-CDG-LHR-CDG-CAI
etc…

for training pilots.
 
Osiris
Posts: 106
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Re: Air France 787-9 cabin layout revealed

Sat Sep 17, 2016 9:10 am

910A wrote:
Polot wrote:
As I mentioned in the 787 production thread, a perfect 1 to 1 replacement for the A340s, which are 30J/21W/224Y (275 seats total).


From the passenger standpoint in coach, the 787 isn't a perfect replacement for the A340.


Nobody cares about the passengers.

More efficient jet, same number of seats - perfect.
 
Beatyair
Posts: 856
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Re: Air France 787-9 cabin layout revealed

Sat Sep 17, 2016 10:40 am

Looking at the 787 list found on "all things 787", Air France is coming up fairly quickly. As well as Korean Air.

Does this mean that they can finally remove there A340's from there fleet? They got to be one of the last to be holding onto them.
 
Jetstar315
Posts: 157
Joined: Fri Sep 28, 2007 5:54 pm

Re: Air France 787-9 cabin layout revealed

Sat Sep 17, 2016 11:34 am

Air New Zealand have 3 more B787-9s to be delivered in 2017-18.
These are going to be configured 27Business/33 Premium Economy/215 Economy and will be used for yet to be announced International ultra long haul routes.
They should be very comfortable!!

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