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ua900
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UA 6x weekly 777 to SJU

Thu Sep 15, 2016 5:05 pm

UA announced today that they'll start EWR-SJU 6x weekly 777 service as of December 18th. I guess that explains where at least one of the 777s they're pulling from LAX/SFO-EWR is going to fly. Surprised that such a saturated passenger market will see that much added passenger capacity, but I guess the relatively short turnaround back to EWR and the full cargo hold will make the route work out in between the remaining 777 turns. Either way, congrats to UA and SJU for getting this equipment upgauge. I know I'll be enjoying the 100% flat bed seating on my trips from LAX to EWR and then onwards to SJU ;-)

As a side question, where are the other 777s that did LAX/SFO-EWR over the summer going this winter?

http://newsroom.united.com/2016-09-15-D ... n-San-Juan
Last edited by ua900 on Thu Sep 15, 2016 5:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Polot
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Re: UA 6x weekly 777 to SJU

Thu Sep 15, 2016 5:12 pm

It sounds like this is primarily for the cargo capacity of the 777. I'm a bit surprised to be honest, considering Puerto Rico's less than stellar economy lately, but I guess DHL/UA have the data to suggest this could work.
 
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Re: UA 6x weekly 777 to SJU

Thu Sep 15, 2016 5:14 pm

They're just announcing an up-gauge (and it was already on the published schedules before this PR). EWR-SJU has been long flown, so the base route itself isn't the item being announced.
 
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Re: UA 6x weekly 777 to SJU

Thu Sep 15, 2016 5:16 pm

ua900 wrote:
UA announced today that they'll start EWR-SJU 6x weekly service as of December 18th. I guess that explains where at least one of the 777s they're pulling from LAX/SFO-EWR is going to fly. Surprised that such a saturated passenger market will see that much added passenger capacity, but I guess the relatively short turnaround back to EWR and the full cargo hold will make the route work out in between the remaining 777 turns. Either way, congrats to UA and SJU for getting this equipment upgauge. I know I'll be enjoying the 100% flat bed seating on my trips from LAX to EWR and then onwards to SJU ;-)

As a side question, where are the other 777s that did LAX/SFO-EWR over the summer going this winter?

http://newsroom.united.com/2016-09-15-D ... n-San-Juan


Domestic 777's will now operate more Hub-Hub, Hub-HNL. For example, DEN-SFO/LAX/ORD/EWR will be getting 777's.
 
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Re: UA 6x weekly 777 to SJU

Thu Sep 15, 2016 5:25 pm

Polot wrote:
It sounds like this is primarily for the cargo capacity of the 777. I'm a bit surprised to be honest, considering Puerto Rico's less than stellar economy lately, but I guess DHL/UA have the data to suggest this could work.


Right, cargo is the reason for 777, couldn't be pax given the yields there. I'm surprised as well, read so much about how the tax breaks ran out / are running out and how that impacted pharmaceuticals plans in Puerto Rico. I did see quite a few pharmaceutical factories there, must be a real bright spot in an otherwise troubled local economy.

a380787 wrote:
They're just announcing an up-gauge (and it was already on the published schedules before this PR). EWR-SJU has been long flown, so the base route itself isn't the item being announced.


Yup, upgauge is what I stated in my post :-)

jetmatt777 wrote:
Domestic 777's will now operate more Hub-Hub, Hub-HNL. For example, DEN-SFO/LAX/ORD/EWR will be getting 777's.


Interesting to see more domestic 777s pop p in DEN. Most of the 777s I saw on LAX/SFO-EWR this summer where 3 class international birds. Are those going back on South America/Asia/Europe runs or will UA continue to have some 3-class 777s on hub-to-hub before they are reconfigured in favor of 2 class Polaris?
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Re: UA 6x weekly 777 to SJU

Thu Sep 15, 2016 5:27 pm

ua900 wrote:
a380787 wrote:
They're just announcing an up-gauge (and it was already on the published schedules before this PR). EWR-SJU has been long flown, so the base route itself isn't the item being announced.


Yup, upgauge is what I stated in my post :-)


I meant to say your opening sentence was misleading :

quote - "UA announced today that they'll start EWR-SJU 6x weekly service as of December 18th. "
 
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Re: UA 6x weekly 777 to SJU

Thu Sep 15, 2016 5:30 pm

a380787 wrote:
I meant to say your opening sentence was misleading :
quote - "UA announced today that they'll start EWR-SJU 6x weekly service as of December 18th. "


Fair enough, I'll copy/paste the thread title next time :-)
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Re: UA 6x weekly 777 to SJU

Thu Sep 15, 2016 5:50 pm

ua900 wrote:
but I guess the relatively short turnaround back to EWR and the full cargo hold will make the route work out in between the remaining 777 turns.


Beyond the dedicated widebodies that AA used to have running to SJU before the market sank there, I know the 762's that made JFK-LAX/SFO runs would occasionally hop to Bermuda.
 
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Re: UA 6x weekly 777 to SJU

Thu Sep 15, 2016 6:42 pm

What a pleasant surprise. I remember in the early 90's CO flew the A300 from EWR to SJU, as well as the 727's, and the 757's briefly. I remember seeing a TW 747 bound for STL parked next to where I was sitting in the terminal. Good times.

So I suppose this will be a two class 777 and not a 3 class or will it have been converted?

Seeing widebodies on more domestic routes will be an interesting change.

Maybe using a widebody is also a competitive response? B6 also is in EWR-SJU.
 
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Re: UA 6x weekly 777 to SJU

Thu Sep 15, 2016 7:03 pm

ua900 wrote:
I guess that explains where at least one of the 777s they're pulling from LAX/SFO-EWR is going to fly.

As a side question, where are the other 777s that did LAX/SFO-EWR over the summer going this winter?

The EWR-LAX/SFO flights were 3-cabin. These flights will be with the domestic configured 777. I assume this is enabled by the previously announced conversion of 10 additional aircraft for domestic use.
Last edited by Rdh3e on Thu Sep 15, 2016 7:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Re: UA 6x weekly 777 to SJU

Thu Sep 15, 2016 7:09 pm

cosyr wrote:
ua900 wrote:
but I guess the relatively short turnaround back to EWR and the full cargo hold will make the route work out in between the remaining 777 turns.


Beyond the dedicated widebodies that AA used to have running to SJU before the market sank there, I know the 762's that made JFK-LAX/SFO runs would occasionally hop to Bermuda.
US (then AA) used the 762s to the Caribbean right up until they were retired. We had them at STT from CLT daily.
 
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Re: UA 6x weekly 777 to SJU

Thu Sep 15, 2016 7:09 pm

Rdh3e wrote:
ua900 wrote:
I guess that explains where at least one of the 777s they're pulling from LAX/SFO-EWR is going to fly.

As a side question, where are the other 777s that did LAX/SFO-EWR over the summer going this winter?

The EWR-LAX/SFO flights were 3-cabin. These flights will be with the domestic configured 777.


They're the existing Hawaiian edition that has 53" pitch recliners in the front cabin. Not flat bed, but far better than the original truly-domestic edition of 77A involving regular 38" F.
 
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Re: UA 6x weekly 777 to SJU

Thu Sep 15, 2016 7:13 pm

Rdh3e wrote:
ua900 wrote:
I guess that explains where at least one of the 777s they're pulling from LAX/SFO-EWR is going to fly.

As a side question, where are the other 777s that did LAX/SFO-EWR over the summer going this winter?

The EWR-LAX/SFO flights were 3-cabin. These flights will be with the domestic configured 777.


Based on my anecdotal experience flying these routes this summer I agree with you, as stated in my previous post.

ua900 wrote:
Most of the 777s I saw on LAX/SFO-EWR this summer where 3 class international birds.


So where do the 3 class p.s. "birds of summer" go in the winter? :-)

Global First seat to Puerto Rico is clearly overkill, lol.
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Re: UA 6x weekly 777 to SJU

Thu Sep 15, 2016 7:22 pm

a380787 wrote:
They're the existing Hawaiian edition that has 53" pitch recliners in the front cabin. Not flat bed, but far better than the original truly-domestic edition of 77A involving regular 38" F.

Eventually they will all be flatbed so *eventually* he'll get to enjoy the LAX-EWR-SJU flatbed experience.
 
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Re: UA 6x weekly 777 to SJU

Thu Sep 15, 2016 7:23 pm

ua900 wrote:
Right, cargo is the reason for 777, couldn't be pax given the yields there. I'm surprised as well, read so much about how the tax breaks ran out / are running out and how that impacted pharmaceuticals plans in Puerto Rico. I did see quite a few pharmaceutical factories there, must be a real bright spot in an otherwise troubled local economy.

The yields can't really be that bad. It's a huge market. EWR-DEN and EWR-SJU are almost exactly the same distance. Do a search and you'll see that DEN is priced significantly cheaper.
 
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Re: UA 6x weekly 777 to SJU

Thu Sep 15, 2016 7:34 pm

jetmatt777 wrote:
Domestic 777's will now operate more Hub-Hub, Hub-HNL.


Also other high volume domestic routes. For example, SFO-BOS will see the domestic 777 this fall (check the schedules in October/November). Pretty cool!
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Re: UA 6x weekly 777 to SJU

Thu Sep 15, 2016 7:42 pm

303dk wrote:
The yields can't really be that bad. It's a huge market. EWR-DEN and EWR-SJU are almost exactly the same distance. Do a search and you'll see that DEN is priced significantly cheaper.

DEN-EWR is about 50% larger local market, and the fares are not cheaper, the average fare in the DOT data is 15% higher than EWR-SJU.
 
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Re: UA 6x weekly 777 to SJU

Thu Sep 15, 2016 7:59 pm

Rdh3e wrote:
303dk wrote:
The yields can't really be that bad. It's a huge market. EWR-DEN and EWR-SJU are almost exactly the same distance. Do a search and you'll see that DEN is priced significantly cheaper.

DEN-EWR is about 50% larger local market, and the fares are not cheaper, the average fare in the DOT data is 15% higher than EWR-SJU.

Quarter 1 2015: I see $266 for EWR-DEN and $286 EWR-SJU. But the exact data doesn't matter as much as the broader point that it's a myth that it's a low yield market.
 
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Re: UA 6x weekly 777 to SJU

Thu Sep 15, 2016 8:07 pm

303dk wrote:
Quarter 1 2015: I see $266 for EWR-DEN and $286 EWR-SJU. But the exact data doesn't matter as much as the broader point that it's a myth that it's a low yield market.

Those fare numbers are not accurate (and even then would be quite dated being 18 months old).

This year Q1 the average EWR-SJU was ~$175, Denver was in the low $200s.
 
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Re: UA 6x weekly 777 to SJU

Thu Sep 15, 2016 8:07 pm

In addition DEN-EWR is hub to hub. I'm sure UA gets quite a few people on that route connecting to/from their European bank heading to/from places in the Mountain West.
 
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Re: UA 6x weekly 777 to SJU

Thu Sep 15, 2016 8:11 pm

Polot wrote:
In addition DEN-EWR is hub to hub. I'm sure UA gets quite a few people on that route connecting to/from their European bank heading to/from places in the Mountain West.
I pointed out one example of the broader point: it's not necessarily a low yield market.
 
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Re: UA 6x weekly 777 to SJU

Thu Sep 15, 2016 8:15 pm

303dk wrote:
Polot wrote:
In addition DEN-EWR is hub to hub. I'm sure UA gets quite a few people on that route connecting to/from their European bank heading to/from places in the Mountain West.
I pointed out one example of the broader point: it's not necessarily a low yield market.


Your broader point only stands if you believe that DEN-EWR is a high yield market. I could easily say both are low yield markets, but there are volume and network reasons why 777s make logical sense on DEN-EWR...

And that is believing the fare information you present as evidence.
 
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Re: UA 6x weekly 777 to SJU

Thu Sep 15, 2016 8:24 pm

Polot wrote:
303dk wrote:
Polot wrote:
In addition DEN-EWR is hub to hub. I'm sure UA gets quite a few people on that route connecting to/from their European bank heading to/from places in the Mountain West.
I pointed out one example of the broader point: it's not necessarily a low yield market.


Your broader point only stands if you believe that DEN-EWR is a high yield market. I could easily say both are low yield markets, but there are volume and network reasons why 777s make logical sense on DEN-EWR...

And that is believing the fare information you present as evidence.

The broader point is that assuming that any leisure market is low yield is wrong and I dug through the DOT spreadsheets to show one example of a "leisure" market with similar fares to a major US city pairing of similar distance.
 
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Re: UA 6x weekly 777 to SJU

Thu Sep 15, 2016 8:29 pm

303dk wrote:
Polot wrote:
303dk wrote:
I pointed out one example of the broader point: it's not necessarily a low yield market.


Your broader point only stands if you believe that DEN-EWR is a high yield market. I could easily say both are low yield markets, but there are volume and network reasons why 777s make logical sense on DEN-EWR...

And that is believing the fare information you present as evidence.

The broader point is that assuming that any leisure market is low yield is wrong and I dug through the DOT spreadsheets to show one example of a "leisure" market with similar fares to a major US city pairing of similar distance.

That doesn't disprove something is low yielding or not, as you are assuming in that scenario that only "leisure" markets are low yielding and that yields between major US cities cannot be. You have to prove that it has a similar yield as another city pair, and that city pair is not low yielding itself.
 
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Re: UA 6x weekly 777 to SJU

Thu Sep 15, 2016 8:35 pm

Polot wrote:
303dk wrote:
Polot wrote:

Your broader point only stands if you believe that DEN-EWR is a high yield market. I could easily say both are low yield markets, but there are volume and network reasons why 777s make logical sense on DEN-EWR...

And that is believing the fare information you present as evidence.

The broader point is that assuming that any leisure market is low yield is wrong and I dug through the DOT spreadsheets to show one example of a "leisure" market with similar fares to a major US city pairing of similar distance.

That doesn't disprove something is low yielding or not, as you are assuming in that scenario that only "leisure" markets are low yielding and that yields between major US cities cannot be. You have to prove that it has a similar yield as another city pair, and that city pair is not low yielding itself.

Go back up and look to what I was responding to. The statement "cargo is the reason for 777, couldn't be pax given the yields there" was made. I'm saying not so fast. That assumption about yields isn't necessarily true.
 
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Re: UA 6x weekly 777 to SJU

Thu Sep 15, 2016 8:45 pm

303dk wrote:
Polot wrote:
303dk wrote:
The broader point is that assuming that any leisure market is low yield is wrong and I dug through the DOT spreadsheets to show one example of a "leisure" market with similar fares to a major US city pairing of similar distance.

That doesn't disprove something is low yielding or not, as you are assuming in that scenario that only "leisure" markets are low yielding and that yields between major US cities cannot be. You have to prove that it has a similar yield as another city pair, and that city pair is not low yielding itself.

Go back up and look to what I was responding to. The statement "cargo is the reason for 777, couldn't be pax given the yields there" was made. I'm saying not so fast. That assumption about yields isn't necessarily true.


Of course that isn't necessarily true. But the data you present doesn't in any way provide evidence for the counter argument that passenger yields are in fact "there." Unless, again, you automatically assume that UA is running domestic 777s on routes like EWR-DEN because of passenger yields.
 
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Re: UA 6x weekly 777 to SJU

Thu Sep 15, 2016 8:54 pm

Polot wrote:
303dk wrote:
Polot wrote:
That doesn't disprove something is low yielding or not, as you are assuming in that scenario that only "leisure" markets are low yielding and that yields between major US cities cannot be. You have to prove that it has a similar yield as another city pair, and that city pair is not low yielding itself.

Go back up and look to what I was responding to. The statement "cargo is the reason for 777, couldn't be pax given the yields there" was made. I'm saying not so fast. That assumption about yields isn't necessarily true.


Of course that isn't necessarily true. But the data you present doesn't in any way provide evidence for the counter argument that passenger yields are in fact "there." Unless, again, you automatically assume that UA is running domestic 777s on routes like EWR-DEN because of passenger yields.

No, I assume that UA is running 777s on EWR-DEN because of volume. I do, however, assume that most major US city pairs are not low yield.
 
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Re: UA 6x weekly 777 to SJU

Thu Sep 15, 2016 10:38 pm

a380787 wrote:
They're the existing Hawaiian edition that has 53" pitch recliners in the front cabin. Not flat bed, but far better than the original truly-domestic edition of 77A involving regular 38" F.


Bummer. So does Hawaii get more flatbeds like the 764s or more 737s/753s with recliners? ;-) I haven't seen the old C seats since I flew N194UA from SFO to LAX around 2012/3 ;-)

Rdh3e wrote:
Eventually they will all be flatbed so *eventually* he'll get to enjoy the LAX-EWR-SJU flatbed experience.


That sounds a little bit like that old UA battleship grey to the blue paint project ;-)

303dk wrote:
The yields can't really be that bad. It's a huge market. EWR-DEN and EWR-SJU are almost exactly the same distance. Do a search and you'll see that DEN is priced significantly cheaper.
Cargo rates are probably pretty good, otherwise no 777 service. I don't know lots of other routes of around ~8000 miles round trip where I can consistently buy first class (including p.s. leg between LAX and EWR) for ~$1,000 per round trip.

IMO DEN is marginally better in passenger yields, but with DEN being a premier UA hub for the heartland / intermountain west the passenger volumes / higher load factor have more of an impact in revenue because a 777 from EWR-SJU will go out 30% empty more than half the time, something I doubt will happen with DEN.

...Still not sure where the 3 class int'l 777s from S15 LAX/SFO-EWR are going then...
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Re: UA 6x weekly 777 to SJU

Thu Sep 15, 2016 10:44 pm

ua900 wrote:
a380787 wrote:
They're the existing Hawaiian edition that has 53" pitch recliners in the front cabin. Not flat bed, but far better than the original truly-domestic edition of 77A involving regular 38" F.


Bummer. So does Hawaii get more flatbeds like the 764s or more 737s/753s with recliners? ;-) I haven't seen the old C seats since I flew N194UA from SFO to LAX around 2012/3 ;-)

Rdh3e wrote:
Eventually they will all be flatbed so *eventually* he'll get to enjoy the LAX-EWR-SJU flatbed experience.


That sounds a little bit like that old UA battleship grey to the blue paint project ;-)

....

...Still not sure where the 3 class int'l 777s from S15 LAX/SFO-EWR are going then...


The 9 "Hawaiian" configuration planes (recliners in F, 2-5-2 seating in Y) and 10 3-class int'l 772As are being converted into a new high density domestic configuration with 28 C seats (the same 2-4-2 flatbed found in the 3-class planes) and 3-4-3 in Y. 2-3 are already flying, and 1-2 more planes are already being converted, so they're going fast. From what I've seen, most domestic 772 flights are still showing the "Hawaiian" seat map, though swaps do happen and will continue to happen.
300 319 320 321 332 333 345 346 380 717 733 734 735 73G 738 739 744 752 753 762 763 772 77W 788 789 CR2 CR7 CR9 CRK Q400 E175 DC10 MD82 MD90
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Re: UA 6x weekly 777 to SJU

Thu Sep 15, 2016 10:53 pm

intotheair wrote:
The 9 "Hawaiian" configuration planes (recliners in F, 2-5-2 seating in Y) and 10 3-class int'l 772As are being converted into a new high density domestic configuration with 28 C seats (the same 2-4-2 flatbed found in the 3-class planes) and 3-4-3 in Y. 2-3 are already flying, and 1-2 more planes are already being converted, so they're going fast. From what I've seen, most domestic 772 flights are still showing the "Hawaiian" seat map, though swaps do happen and will continue to happen.


I don't get that, why not wait until Polaris comes on line in just a few months and then bring all the wide bodies up to Polaris? Is UA bent on always keeping the previous product generation around in a sub fleet of ghetto birds to save money / recycle seats?
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Re: UA 6x weekly 777 to SJU

Thu Sep 15, 2016 11:18 pm

ua900 wrote:
Cargo rates are probably pretty good, otherwise no 777 service. I don't know lots of other routes of around ~8000 miles round trip where I can consistently buy first class (including p.s. leg between LAX and EWR) for ~$1,000 per round trip.

IMO DEN is marginally better in passenger yields, but with DEN being a premier UA hub for the heartland / intermountain west the passenger volumes / higher load factor have more of an impact in revenue because a 777 from EWR-SJU will go out 30% empty more than half the time, something I doubt will happen with DEN.

They said in the release that cargo is the reason, but we have no reason to think that the either load factors or yields are poor. I'm also not sure where you're getting 8000 miles from. It's a 3200 mile roundtrip. SJU-USA load factors were 89% in 2015 and 88% so far this year. There's demand and no reason to think that yields are low.

EDIT: I assume you mean 8000 from LAX to SJU. Still not seeing any real difference in price for similar stage lengths from EWR regardless of travel class.
 
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Re: UA 6x weekly 777 to SJU

Fri Sep 16, 2016 12:32 am

303dk wrote:
ua900 wrote:
Cargo rates are probably pretty good, otherwise no 777 service. I don't know lots of other routes of around ~8000 miles round trip where I can consistently buy first class (including p.s. leg between LAX and EWR) for ~$1,000 per round trip.

IMO DEN is marginally better in passenger yields, but with DEN being a premier UA hub for the heartland / intermountain west the passenger volumes / higher load factor have more of an impact in revenue because a 777 from EWR-SJU will go out 30% empty more than half the time, something I doubt will happen with DEN.

They said in the release that cargo is the reason, but we have no reason to think that the either load factors or yields are poor. I'm also not sure where you're getting 8000 miles from. It's a 3200 mile roundtrip. SJU-USA load factors were 89% in 2015 and 88% so far this year. There's demand and no reason to think that yields are low.

EDIT: I assume you mean 8000 from LAX to SJU. Still not seeing any real difference in price for similar stage lengths from EWR regardless of travel class.


Right, LAX-EWR-SJU would be a likely route for me, hence the 8000 miles.

Checking a couple of random dates, here's what I see:

Option 1: LAX-EWR-SJU - $300ish in coach and $1000ish in F. Considering that I'm taking up a seat on p.s. both ways and that that p.s. business seat would run more than $1000 most days I think it's a cheap fare.

Option 2: If I were to fly to somewhere else in the neighborhood, say BQN, NAS, AUA or so the fare would either be higher if I tie up a p.s. seat through EWR (~$1500)

Option 3: Take something like an E75 ex-IAH to places like NAS or AUA, that's ~$1000, but I didn't tie up a p.s. / flat bed seat unless I fly the lone 787 on LAX-IAH.

SJU seems comparatively cheap. Can't speak to the yields since I don't work in the airline industry but it does seem cheaper, more on par with a depressed Central American destination than with a nice Caribbean vacation that happens to tie up a p.s. seat on LAX-EWR.
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Re: UA 6x weekly 777 to SJU

Fri Sep 16, 2016 2:48 am

ua900 wrote:
SJU seems comparatively cheap. Can't speak to the yields since I don't work in the airline industry but it does seem cheaper, more on par with a depressed Central American destination than with a nice Caribbean vacation that happens to tie up a p.s. seat on LAX-EWR.


Given that the 77A is one of the lowest-CASM aircraft in the fleet, I'm not sure why anyone would be surprised that UA would think about deploying them on a route variously described here as "low yield" and "comparatively cheap." That's especially true given that the apparent cargo demand.
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UAinAUS
Posts: 243
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Re: UA 6x weekly 777 to SJU

Fri Sep 16, 2016 7:59 am

ua900 wrote:
I don't get that, why not wait until Polaris comes on line in just a few months and then bring all the wide bodies up to Polaris? Is UA bent on always keeping the previous product generation around in a sub fleet of ghetto birds to save money / recycle seats?


The 19 772As will not be getting Polaris. They are being converted to a Domestic configuration (10 being converted from international and 9 being converted from the current Hawaiian configuration). UA has always had a small domestic or Hawaiian 777 fleet that did not have the international cabin setup. In this refresh, for the first time, the domestic fleet will get flat beds, although it will be the 2-4-2 IPTE seats.
 
VC10er
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Re: UA 6x weekly 777 to SJU

Fri Sep 16, 2016 9:12 pm

I have read this thread 3 times and I am still confused about the end result for the premium seating on domestic 777's.

I am correct in thinking the following:

1: no Polaris on domestic routes, unless there is some sort of swap out
2: to Hawaii, F will be the diamond flatbed, 2-4-2, or the backward/forward 2-4-2?
3: to San Juan it will be the legacy UA international J lounge chair (leather, as on the previous p.s.? or fabric? Both of which I prefer over any angled flatbed!) - is this temporary until they install freed up diamond 2-4-2 seats?
4: will any domestic 777's get the new domestic F seat that has been introduced on the A320?

Anyone who can state it clearly, like for a child (a 50 year old child) like me, please do!

ALSO: Once the entire program is complete, does this give UA a flatbed advantage vs AA or DL?

THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU
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United1
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Re: UA 6x weekly 777 to SJU

Fri Sep 16, 2016 10:04 pm

VC10er wrote:
I have read this thread 3 times and I am still confused about the end result for the premium seating on domestic 777's.

I am correct in thinking the following:

1: no Polaris on domestic routes, unless there is some sort of swap out
2: to Hawaii, F will be the diamond flatbed, 2-4-2, or the backward/forward 2-4-2?
3: to San Juan it will be the legacy UA international J lounge chair (leather, as on the previous p.s.? or fabric? Both of which I prefer over any angled flatbed!) - is this temporary until they install freed up diamond 2-4-2 seats?
4: will any domestic 777's get the new domestic F seat that has been introduced on the A320?

Anyone who can state it clearly, like for a child (a 50 year old child) like me, please do!

ALSO: Once the entire program is complete, does this give UA a flatbed advantage vs AA or DL?

THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU


All 19 of the 777-222s will end up with the IPTE backwards/forwards seats (ie the old J class flatbeds that UA outfitted on the 744/772/763 fleets.) None will get the new domestic seats that you currently find on the Airbii fleet.

SJU will either get the configuration described above or the old barco lounger style seats that were on P.S. covered in leather...no UA aircraft have angled lay flat seats.
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intotheair
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Re: UA 6x weekly 777 to SJU

Fri Sep 16, 2016 11:49 pm

Right, all the 777-200 non-ERs will all fly domestic with the soon-to-be-outdated pre-merger UA C seat. The rest of the 777 fleet will eventually all have Polaris. All 777 Y cabins will be 10 seats abreast in both configurations too.
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ramprat74
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Re: UA 6x weekly 777 to SJU

Fri Sep 16, 2016 11:55 pm

The 777 was added to the EWR-SJU-EWR route so they could take advantage of the temp controlled containers and the emerging pharmaceutical industries in Puerto Rico.
 
L.1011
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Re: UA 6x weekly 777 to SJU

Sat Sep 17, 2016 2:00 am

303dk wrote:
Rdh3e wrote:
303dk wrote:
The yields can't really be that bad. It's a huge market. EWR-DEN and EWR-SJU are almost exactly the same distance. Do a search and you'll see that DEN is priced significantly cheaper.

DEN-EWR is about 50% larger local market, and the fares are not cheaper, the average fare in the DOT data is 15% higher than EWR-SJU.

Quarter 1 2015: I see $266 for EWR-DEN and $286 EWR-SJU. But the exact data doesn't matter as much as the broader point that it's a myth that it's a low yield market.


I'm very familiar with the Domestic Consumer Airfare Report, but it only covers the lower 48. What are you guys using which covers the territories, and presumably Alaska and Hawaii?

Been looking for such a thing for years, so thanks in advance!
 
fun2fly
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Re: UA 6x weekly 777 to SJU

Sat Sep 17, 2016 11:47 am

CO regularly ran 767's to SJU during peak and holiday periods. So, it's not that new of an idea to put a widebody on this lane. If they took the # of trips down and kept the # of seats relatively flat, it would be even less of a news story. With soon to be 19 domestic 777's, we'll see more of this as demand dictates.

The new domestic 777 is certainly a CASM friendly hauler which makes some sense on a so so yield route.
 
303dk
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Re: UA 6x weekly 777 to SJU

Sat Sep 17, 2016 2:17 pm

L.1011 wrote:
303dk wrote:
Rdh3e wrote:
DEN-EWR is about 50% larger local market, and the fares are not cheaper, the average fare in the DOT data is 15% higher than EWR-SJU.

Quarter 1 2015: I see $266 for EWR-DEN and $286 EWR-SJU. But the exact data doesn't matter as much as the broader point that it's a myth that it's a low yield market.


I'm very familiar with the Domestic Consumer Airfare Report, but it only covers the lower 48. What are you guys using which covers the territories, and presumably Alaska and Hawaii?

Been looking for such a thing for years, so thanks in advance!

I used the DOT report for EWR-DEN and fare detective for EWR-SJU
 
klwright69
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Re: UA 6x weekly 777 to SJU

Sat Sep 17, 2016 3:46 pm

fun2fly, CO was using the A300 to SJU in the 90's. And TW was using the 747 also. Big planes to this destination have a long history. This move was unexpected but it's not completely without precedent.
 
VC10er
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Re: UA 6x weekly 777 to SJU

Sat Sep 17, 2016 7:02 pm

SUCH AND INTERESTING DECISION!
Why would UA choose to re-use the older "forward/backward" bed seat vs using the current Diamond seats that will be coming off the 772 and 767's as Polaris gets installed on them?

Is it that UA has many Forward/Backward seats are in storage taken from the retired 747's and other legacy United wide bodies?

Frankly, I am one of the very few who actually like the "Forward/Backward" bed seat ONLY because it's a longer bed and, IMHO, a more comfortably cushioned flat bed. I also like the way they look. I love the mini wall with 2 TV monitors. But those seats are very narrow, and has no storage at all compared to the all forward facing Diamond seat.

Hey, if I am off to a domestic location such as Hawaii, Trans-con, or EWR to San Juan, and I bought (or upgraded to) any of these seats, I would be a very happy passenger. I would even be happy with the UA lounge chair too, but in it's full recline which was amazing.

Back in the 1990's, when the ergonomic lounge chair was United's international J seat, (at the time bed seats were rare and often just in Int'l First), I found them to be very comfortable, they reclined much further back than any other lounge chair style seat I could find on any airline, basically, I was thrilled to be in that lounge chair versus Y, and still would be happy.

So, what is the logic behind using the Forward/Backward seats instead of the Diamond seat?
To Most the Sky is The Limit, For me, the Sky is Home.
 
United1
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Re: UA 6x weekly 777 to SJU

Sat Sep 17, 2016 7:22 pm

VC10er wrote:
SUCH AND INTERESTING DECISION! Why would UA choose to re-use the older "forward/backward" bed seat vs using the current Diamond seats that will be coming off as Polaris gets installed on the 772's and 767's?

Frankly, I am one of the very few who actually like the "Forward/Backward" bed seat ONLY because it's a longer bed and IMHO a more comfortable cushioned flat bed. But it is narrow, and has no storage at all. Why did they decide on using them? Is it that they are first to come off the 747's, sUA 3-class 767 and 777?


The IPTE seats gives UA a higher density in the cabin than the diamond seats would allow UA to have....older is also relative as both types were being installed at the same time.
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commavia
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Re: UA 6x weekly 777 to SJU

Sat Sep 17, 2016 7:29 pm

VC10er wrote:
SUCH AND INTERESTING DECISION!
Why would UA choose to re-use the older "forward/backward" bed seat vs using the current Diamond seats that will be coming off the 772 and 767's as Polaris gets installed on them?

So, what is the logic behind using the Forward/Backward seats instead of the Diamond seat?


As said, on a route like this where the 777 is about passenger and cargo capacity rather than product competitiveness, there is no need to showcase a new premium seat. Actual flying time EWR-SJU is four hours or less and almost all of United's competition in the NYC-SJU market is flying narrowbodies with standard domestic F seats, so there is no need for United to go out of its way to put an ultra-premium, high-end J seat into this market.
 
VC10er
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Re: UA 6x weekly 777 to SJU

Sun Sep 18, 2016 12:24 am

I agree...getting a United flat bed seat (Forward/Backward) style is fantastic if one is just flying from EWR to San Juan, PR. A place I love!

So, it causes me to consider the end-game for UA once their fleets have been all updated. All international wide-bodies will eventually have Polaris, all domestic 777 will have the (F/B) flatbed seat, p.s. will have the Diamond seat in a 2-class configuration ...and all single aisle domestic Airbus and 737/757 will have the new domestic F seat.

This should make United's hard product in all PREMIUM CABIN's very competitive.
To Most the Sky is The Limit, For me, the Sky is Home.
 
b747400erf
Posts: 3172
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Re: UA 6x weekly 777 to SJU

Sun Sep 18, 2016 10:40 am

ramprat74 wrote:
The 777 was added to the EWR-SJU-EWR route so they could take advantage of the temp controlled containers and the emerging pharmaceutical industries in Puerto Rico.


Years late. The industry is collapsing because Puerto Rico gave out tax breaks and they now have a financial crisis.
 
303dk
Posts: 496
Joined: Sat Aug 27, 2016 11:26 pm

Re: UA 6x weekly 777 to SJU

Mon Sep 19, 2016 2:29 pm

b747400erf wrote:
ramprat74 wrote:
The 777 was added to the EWR-SJU-EWR route so they could take advantage of the temp controlled containers and the emerging pharmaceutical industries in Puerto Rico.


Years late. The industry is collapsing because Puerto Rico gave out tax breaks and they now have a financial crisis.

There are something like 80 pharma manufacturing plants operating today. I wouldn't call that "collapsing." Cargolux just last week announced BQN-LUX with the 747-8F to increase refrigerated cargo capacity. Two weeks ago, CAL announced SJU-LGG for the same reason.
 
klwright69
Posts: 2712
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2000 4:22 am

Re: UA 6x weekly 777 to SJU

Wed Sep 28, 2016 6:38 pm

UA is already using the 767-400 on select days in this market. They are using it today for their single flight in this market (EWR-SJU).
 
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piedmont762
Posts: 456
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Re: UA 6x weekly 777 to SJU

Wed Sep 28, 2016 6:47 pm

ua900 wrote:
UA announced today that they'll start EWR-SJU 6x weekly 777 service as of December 18th. I guess that explains where at least one of the 777s they're pulling from LAX/SFO-EWR is going to fly. Surprised that such a saturated passenger market will see that much added passenger capacity, but I guess the relatively short turnaround back to EWR and the full cargo hold will make the route work out in between the remaining 777 turns. Either way, congrats to UA and SJU for getting this equipment upgauge. I know I'll be enjoying the 100% flat bed seating on my trips from LAX to EWR and then onwards to SJU ;-)

As a side question, where are the other 777s that did LAX/SFO-EWR over the summer going this winter?

http://newsroom.united.com/2016-09-15-D ... n-San-Juan


Well at least you'll be up front - if you're in the back on one of those things you'd hate your life.

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