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PVDCMHOZ
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PVD losing DE to FRA?

Tue Sep 20, 2016 6:58 pm

I was looking at the summer 2017 schedules and noticed that PVD no longer appears on the DE website. However, BOS does. Is DE leaving PVD for BOS?
https://www.condor.com/tca/eu/offers/longhaul?departure=1706
 
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adamh8297
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Re: PVD losing DE to FRA?

Tue Sep 20, 2016 7:05 pm

PVDCMHOZ wrote:
I was looking at the summer 2017 schedules and noticed that PVD no longer appears on the DE website. However, BOS does. Is DE leaving PVD for BOS?
https://www.condor.com/tca/eu/offers/longhaul?departure=1706


I don't think DE is coming to BOS. I don't know if they are leaving PVD however.

BOS is showing up due to MT/lH or B6/MT/LH flights on a FRA-MAN-BOS-MAN-FRA or FRA-MAN-JFK-BOS-JFK-FRA-BOS routing.
Airlines flown: A3, AA, AC, AF, AM, BA, B6, CA, CO, CX, DL, EA, EL, IB, LH, MI, MQ, NH, NW, NZ, OU, PE, QF, S4, SQ, TP, UA, US, VS, WE, WN

2019: CX BOS-HKG, WE HKG-HKT, CA HKT-PEK-EWR, B6 EWR-BOS
 
jasoncrh
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Re: PVD losing DE to FRA?

Tue Sep 20, 2016 7:07 pm

hmmm.. not sure 100% about Boston (though it does appear on the link you included), but PVD is definitely off this overview for Summer 2017 flying: https://www.condor.com/eu/generated/timetable_S2017.pdf
 
PVDCMHOZ
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Re: PVD losing DE to FRA?

Tue Sep 20, 2016 7:13 pm

jasoncrh wrote:
hmmm.. not sure 100% about Boston (though it does appear on the link you included), but PVD is definitely off this overview for Summer 2017 flying: https://www.condor.com/eu/generated/timetable_S2017.pdf


You beat me to it! Hopefully, schedules are still being finalized. Fingers crossed. It would be a bummer to lose that service.
 
PVDCMHOZ
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Re: PVD losing DE to FRA?

Tue Sep 20, 2016 7:15 pm

Another point to consider is the runway extension construction. Rwny 5/23 will be shortened to just about ~6700-6800 feet for the summer of 2017. The runway will reopen in December 2017 at a length of 8,700 feet. The route may have been suspended for operational purposes.
 
usflyer123
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Re: PVD losing DE to FRA?

Tue Sep 20, 2016 7:31 pm

a bit off topic, but how is TACV over there?
for most people the sky is the limit. for those who love aviation, the sky is home...
 
iyerhari
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Re: PVD losing DE to FRA?

Tue Sep 20, 2016 8:02 pm

Wikipedia lists that DE stops Sep 30, 2016.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T._F._Gre ... stinations
 
RL757PVD
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Re: PVD losing DE to FRA?

Tue Sep 20, 2016 8:53 pm

I've taken it twice, both times decent loads, but the fare was lower this year than last year, and fares were even lower at BOS when looking. EW + AB trashed the fares, both have higher costs, no incentives and lower fares. PVD works as a BOS alternate when PVD has the low fares, with the situation at BOS it doesn' seem sustainable. EW leaving BOS is more evidence of that.

My guess is DE would have worked at PVD without AB and EW at BOS.

From what I hear VR is doing very well though and rumor has it S4 is expanding their season for 17.
Experience is what you get when what you thought would work out didn't!
 
PlymSpotter
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Re: PVD losing DE to FRA?

Tue Sep 20, 2016 8:59 pm

PVDCMHOZ wrote:
Another point to consider is the runway extension construction. Rwny 5/23 will be shortened to just about ~6700-6800 feet for the summer of 2017. The runway will reopen in December 2017 at a length of 8,700 feet. The route may have been suspended for operational purposes.


If that is the case, then I would question the economic rational.
...love is just a camouflage for what resembles rage again...
 
airbazar
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Re: PVD losing DE to FRA?

Tue Sep 20, 2016 9:06 pm

I'm not surprised and people beat me up for saying it when DE announced the route: PVD has no TATL market other than to/from Portugal.
Factor in the huge offer and lower fares to/from BOS and it's hard for any airline to justify operating to/from PVD.
 
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Ytraveller
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Re: PVD losing DE to FRA?

Tue Sep 20, 2016 9:35 pm

Condor is also gone from PVD website's list of airlines: http://www.pvdairport.com/flights/airlines
 
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adamh8297
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Re: PVD losing DE to FRA?

Tue Sep 20, 2016 10:11 pm

airbazar wrote:
I'm not surprised and people beat me up for saying it when DE announced the route: PVD has no TATL market other than to/from Portugal.
Factor in the huge offer and lower fares to/from BOS and it's hard for any airline to justify operating to/from PVD.



Disagree with the first statement. DE allows connections onto LH in FRA and PVD is an alternate airport to BOS especially anything south of 128. I agree with the second: TP/DY/MT had even lower fares to Europe than AB and EW especially on the USA originating side of things.

The Brookings report for 2011 had PVD as a separate metro from BOS. Due to proximity to BOS all markets were small but the top European and International market was DUB (slightly under 25 PDEW) and it was 8 times bigger than LON! Obviously any Portugal traffic pretty much left from BOS especially Azorean traffic.

Do not discount the chances of PVD-Ireland on DY. It could happen in Summer 2017
Airlines flown: A3, AA, AC, AF, AM, BA, B6, CA, CO, CX, DL, EA, EL, IB, LH, MI, MQ, NH, NW, NZ, OU, PE, QF, S4, SQ, TP, UA, US, VS, WE, WN

2019: CX BOS-HKG, WE HKG-HKT, CA HKT-PEK-EWR, B6 EWR-BOS
 
RL757PVD
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Re: PVD losing DE to FRA?

Wed Sep 21, 2016 12:19 am

adamh8297 wrote:

Disagree with the first statement. DE allows connections onto LH in FRA and PVD is an alternate airport to BOS especially anything south of 128.


From what I have heard (second hand but credible)

1) The US side was very strong
2) Over 50% onward connections ( a lot of Italy)
3) Inbound struggled
4) Low fares at BOS killed it

When the competition has higher costs and lower fares, you cant win.

It also would have been better if the BOS terminal E summer disaster had a few years to fester first. Terminal E isnt going to be better for a long time, and PVD will continue to benefit, it just needs to be local or specialty ethnic or a true low fare alternative to BOS.

Internationally PVD is where BWI was in the early 90's and i expect you will see it trend in a similar fashion of the next 10-20 years.
Experience is what you get when what you thought would work out didn't!
 
B752OS
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Re: PVD losing DE to FRA?

Wed Sep 21, 2016 1:06 am

adamh8297 wrote:
airbazar wrote:
I'm not surprised and people beat me up for saying it when DE announced the route: PVD has no TATL market other than to/from Portugal.
Factor in the huge offer and lower fares to/from BOS and it's hard for any airline to justify operating to/from PVD.



Disagree with the first statement. DE allows connections onto LH in FRA and PVD is an alternate airport to BOS especially anything south of 128. I agree with the second: TP/DY/MT had even lower fares to Europe than AB and EW especially on the USA originating side of things.

The Brookings report for 2011 had PVD as a separate metro from BOS. Due to proximity to BOS all markets were small but the top European and International market was DUB (slightly under 25 PDEW) and it was 8 times bigger than LON! Obviously any Portugal traffic pretty much left from BOS especially Azorean traffic.

Do not discount the chances of PVD-Ireland on DY. It could happen in Summer 2017


For some reason some people always assume that Providence is part of the Boston metro area when it's not.It's a shame that PVD is losing this service. Makes you wonder if taking all of those houses in Warwick was worth it.
 
B752OS
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Re: PVD losing DE to FRA?

Wed Sep 21, 2016 1:09 am

RL757PVD wrote:
adamh8297 wrote:

Disagree with the first statement. DE allows connections onto LH in FRA and PVD is an alternate airport to BOS especially anything south of 128.


From what I have heard (second hand but credible)

1) The US side was very strong
2) Over 50% onward connections ( a lot of Italy)
3) Inbound struggled
4) Low fares at BOS killed it

When the competition has higher costs and lower fares, you cant win.

It also would have been better if the BOS terminal E summer disaster had a few years to fester first. Terminal E isnt going to be better for a long time, and PVD will continue to benefit, it just needs to be local or specialty ethnic or a true low fare alternative to BOS.

Internationally PVD is where BWI was in the early 90's and i expect you will see it trend in a similar fashion of the next 10-20 years.


Once the 380 gates (there will be 3 of them) come online in Q2 of next year, that should help alleviate some of the stress. You'll have 3 gates coming online, expanded holding areas and additional space for airline clubs. The explosive growth Logan has seen on the international side of things is slowing down - so we probably won't be seeing any new entrants at all during 2017.
 
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adamh8297
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Re: PVD losing DE to FRA?

Wed Sep 21, 2016 1:23 am

B752OS wrote:

For some reason some people always assume that Providence is part of the Boston metro area when it's not.It's a shame that PVD is losing this service. Makes you wonder if taking all of those houses in Warwick was worth it.


That's correct but its part of the CSA of Greater Boston which is a better comparison when looking at airline markets.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combined_statistical_area

DOT data such as Table 6 includes all 4 airports in the CSA (BOS PVD MHT ORH)

I live northeast of Boston and would have flown that DE flight in a heartbeat if it was out of MHT assuming MHT had CBP of course.
Airlines flown: A3, AA, AC, AF, AM, BA, B6, CA, CO, CX, DL, EA, EL, IB, LH, MI, MQ, NH, NW, NZ, OU, PE, QF, S4, SQ, TP, UA, US, VS, WE, WN

2019: CX BOS-HKG, WE HKG-HKT, CA HKT-PEK-EWR, B6 EWR-BOS
 
PVD757
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Re: PVD losing DE to FRA?

Wed Sep 21, 2016 3:58 am

I disagree about PVD's TATL market. While there was amazing connections available on LH, the FRA service overflew Ireland, The UK, and connections to Spain and Portugal posed a significant backtrack. These are important and attractive markets from the PVD area. Narrowbody service to SNN, DUB, and London that offered onward connections would do just fine from PVD. Lets not forget that BOS is beyond capacity for a large chunk of the day in E and even with future expansion will run out of room again in the not so distant future. PVD is the most logical place to provide "relief" in the region for future international service. Not saying PVD will see daily year round flights to multiple European airports but there is a role it can play in the region. If EW and AB weren't charging $500 roundtrip flights from BOS with less than a week's notice, I have no doubt DE would stay in PVD.
 
airbazar
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Re: PVD losing DE to FRA?

Wed Sep 21, 2016 4:13 pm

adamh8297 wrote:
Disagree with the first statement.

You can disagree all you want but the reality is that they tried it for 1 Summer and left.
I do agree however that Ireland might work from PVD but even that I'm not too sure. Even Portugal/Azores is a struggle IMO. Lets wait and see if SATA returns next Summer.
PVD757 wrote:
Lets not forget that BOS is beyond capacity for a large chunk of the day in E and even with future expansion will run out of room again in the not so distant future. PVD is the most logical place to provide "relief" in the region for future international service.

BOS is not beyond capacity and it won't be any time soon. It already started, EK, TK, and others are all cutting service compared to last year. And to be fair, I just don't see what else could be added in the next 3-5 years other than a few token TATL frequency additions on top of the semi-annouced BOG flight. And we're not even factoring in a looming down turn in the near future, because there will be one.
 
User001
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Re: PVD losing DE to FRA?

Wed Sep 21, 2016 4:21 pm

It was a bit of a strange launch with Condor anyway.

Thomas Cook and Condor are one and the same company, with a strategy that FRA and MAN are hubs that compliment each other, so was odd they launched FRA-PVD to access the cape area, but then went straight for BOS to launch MAN-BOS. Surely would have made sense to have their operation under one roof for costs and ease of operation?
 
RL757PVD
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Re: PVD losing DE to FRA?

Wed Sep 21, 2016 4:53 pm

airbazar wrote:
You can disagree all you want but the reality is that they tried it for 1 Summer and left.

BOS is not beyond capacity and it won't be any time soon. .


They had it for 2 years, first year ran 85% of so, not too shabby out of the gate, the second year I believe the numbers will clearly indicate the impact that EW and AB had on the regional market (we can all agree PVD is not independent of BOS). If AB and EW did not start BOS, DE would be coming back next year (it was actually briefly for sale) for year #3.

BOS wont be at capacity airfield wise, but gates will be an issue but domestically and internationally. None of the fixes will be cheap which will help PVD's cost advantage.
Experience is what you get when what you thought would work out didn't!
 
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chrisnh
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Re: PVD losing DE to FRA?

Wed Sep 21, 2016 5:19 pm

airbazar wrote:
I do agree however that Ireland might work from PVD but even that I'm not too sure.


Obviously the new Hartford service will be eagerly monitored to see how well it does. If it sticks, I can't see PVD ALSO getting service to DUB; that's way too much capacity within a small geographical area. And if it doesn't stick, then that might also be seen as a negative with respect to any hope PVD might have of landing its own (i.e. "If BDL can't make it work..." etc.)
 
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VS4ever
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Re: PVD losing DE to FRA?

Wed Sep 21, 2016 5:29 pm

- so we probably won't be seeing any new entrants at all during 2017.

Depends on what you define as new entrants? if you are talking new airlines, you might be right, however 2017 is already seeing VS add BOS-MAN to its portfolio and uplifts elsewhere, so it's not all doom and gloom. The EW flight was always a wierd one and I am not surprised they are gone. AB is likely to go at some point if reports about their finances ring true and yes some of the others have cut back. As others have said, apart from BOG and the fabled coveted flight from India, what else is there to truly add apart from some UK TATL stuff with EDI and the like.

The explosion of flights and pax will reduce markedly in 2017, but i still see some growth there. Remember the 2nd daily for EK is not permanently cancelled at this point, only for the winter and don't be surprised if TK ultimately ramp up again in the summer.

All that said with the expansion of E not going to be open until 2021 or 2022 (I am ignoring the current 380 compatibility project) , it will be a case of work with what you have and if DY can bring their MAX's in that will probably the major growth, along with any pre-cleared options that might present themselves.

In terms of PVD, at this point, I don't see a lot of options, but if BOS does get maxed out, then along with MHT and ORH there will have to be options created for access if BOS cannot be re-built to expand its abilities. The interesting fact that, even with the numbers of pax busting at the seams. Numbers of movements are still down, because of bigger jets plying the same routes, compared to regionals way back when.
That feeling when you sit at the end of a runway, brakes are released and the raw power takes over. Now that is a thing of beauty and it never gets old.
 
PVD757
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Re: PVD losing DE to FRA?

Wed Sep 21, 2016 6:31 pm

BOS is indeed beyond capacity in Terminal E during the afternoon rush in the summer. Aircraft waiting up to an hour for a gate or hardstand and then 1-2 hours to get through the CBP process sure points to being beyond capacity (or whatever wording you prefer). Yes fixes are on the way but right now, They are not able to efficiently handle what they have during those times.

I find it interesting that some people here can't accept that unlike other large metro areas (LA, Bay, So Fla, Wash, NYC, CHI, Hous, etc.) that New England won't slowly evolve into something similar (on a smaller scale) as these other regions in having a secondary international airport. PVD will serve this role despite the obvious focus on BOS right now.

Spoke to a friend at the airport. Sounds like the year 1 to year 2 changes are indeed what caused this decision. Year 1 was LH with DE serving as the low fare option for the region. Year 2 saw AB & EW jump in at basement level prices which changed the entire picture and strategy. Germany to New England just couldn't absorb the sudden increases in seats at sustainable revenues. So again, this isn't as simple as "PVD has no TATL market.." but more market dynamics on a regional level. EW's abrupt BOS cessation could also be a sign of this dynamic.
 
airbazar
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Re: PVD losing DE to FRA?

Thu Sep 22, 2016 1:38 pm

RL757PVD wrote:
They had it for 2 years, first year ran 85% of so, not too shabby out of the gate, the second year I believe the numbers will clearly indicate the impact that EW and AB had on the regional market (we can all agree PVD is not independent of BOS). If AB and EW did not start BOS, DE would be coming back next year (it was actually briefly for sale) for year #3.

Then you're making my point: there is no TATL market in/out of PVD because both passengers and airlines prefer to fly from BOS.

RL757PVD wrote:
BOS wont be at capacity airfield wise, but gates will be an issue but domestically and internationally. None of the fixes will be cheap which will help PVD's cost advantage.

PVD's cost advantage couldn't keep DE without subsidies. What does that tell you?
And no, there won't be any gate issues, not in the foreseeable future. The 3 or so gates being added to E (relative to this Summer), combined with a couple of cuts in International service will actually expand gate capacity. B6 has gates to spare at their terminal, so much so that they allow EK, TP, and EI to use their gates. AA will continue to cut service and UA will remain stagnant at best. DL will grow but they have room to grow at terminal A. And I see no one else wanting to expand at BOS in any meaningful way. And in 5 years time terminal E will have 7 additional new gates. So I'm not sure where those gate capacity shortage issues will come from.
 
aaflyer777
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Re: PVD losing DE to FRA?

Thu Sep 22, 2016 2:00 pm

Did EW pull out of BOS due to low loads or lack of pilots/planes? I was under the impression they were doing pretty well on BOS-CGN.
 
B752OS
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Re: PVD losing DE to FRA?

Thu Sep 22, 2016 2:46 pm

PVD757 wrote:
BOS is indeed beyond capacity in Terminal E during the afternoon rush in the summer. Aircraft waiting up to an hour for a gate or hardstand and then 1-2 hours to get through the CBP process sure points to being beyond capacity (or whatever wording you prefer). Yes fixes are on the way but right now, They are not able to efficiently handle what they have during those times.

I find it interesting that some people here can't accept that unlike other large metro areas (LA, Bay, So Fla, Wash, NYC, CHI, Hous, etc.) that New England won't slowly evolve into something similar (on a smaller scale) as these other regions in having a secondary international airport. PVD will serve this role despite the obvious focus on BOS right now.

Spoke to a friend at the airport. Sounds like the year 1 to year 2 changes are indeed what caused this decision. Year 1 was LH with DE serving as the low fare option for the region. Year 2 saw AB & EW jump in at basement level prices which changed the entire picture and strategy. Germany to New England just couldn't absorb the sudden increases in seats at sustainable revenues. So again, this isn't as simple as "PVD has no TATL market.." but more market dynamics on a regional level. EW's abrupt BOS cessation could also be a sign of this dynamic.


What is the secondary international airport in the Chicago area? Like I said before, it's unfortunate PVD is losing this service. While Boston and Providence are their own metro areas, I look at them as serving the broader region. If you compare the geographic area of the Boston CSA to others, such as Houston, Los Angeles, or Dallas, the Boston CSA is smaller in physical size. So therefore MHT and PVD are not a lot different than FLL, PBI, ONT, LGB, SNA, OAK, SJC, etc. in that they all serve the larger region in addition to the main airport.
 
RL757PVD
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Re: PVD losing DE to FRA?

Thu Sep 22, 2016 3:35 pm

aaflyer777 wrote:
Did EW pull out of BOS due to low loads or lack of pilots/planes? I was under the impression they were doing pretty well on BOS-CGN.


Loads were terrible considering it was the summer peak, I heard some days in the 40's (%) and fares were in the $500-600 r/t range.

They dropped September with less than 2 months notice, that says a lot.

I will continue to stand by the claim that without AB and EW at BOS this summer, DE would have been returning in 17.
Experience is what you get when what you thought would work out didn't!
 
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adamh8297
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Re: PVD losing DE to FRA?

Thu Sep 22, 2016 4:05 pm

B752OS wrote:

What is the secondary international airport in the Chicago area? Like I said before, it's unfortunate PVD is losing this service. While Boston and Providence are their own metro areas, I look at them as serving the broader region. If you compare the geographic area of the Boston CSA to others, such as Houston, Los Angeles, or Dallas, the Boston CSA is smaller in physical size. So therefore MHT and PVD are not a lot different than FLL, PBI, ONT, LGB, SNA, OAK, SJC, etc. in that they all serve the larger region in addition to the main airport.




MDW has Canada, Mexico, DR, and Jamaica but no Transatlantic service... Depending on fleet utilization - WN probably could run a weekend PVD-CUN.



RL757PVD wrote:
aaflyer777 wrote:
Did EW pull out of BOS due to low loads or lack of pilots/planes? I was under the impression they were doing pretty well on BOS-CGN.


Loads were terrible considering it was the summer peak, I heard some days in the 40's (%) and fares were in the $500-600 r/t range.

They dropped September with less than 2 months notice, that says a lot.

I will continue to stand by the claim that without AB and EW at BOS this summer, DE would have been returning in 17.


I'm actually glad EW failed in BOS since they were making it impossible for US-originating traffic to book on EW's site. The silver lining in this is that it baited AB to jump in on DUS-BOS and they like the summer performance enough to make it daily next year.
Airlines flown: A3, AA, AC, AF, AM, BA, B6, CA, CO, CX, DL, EA, EL, IB, LH, MI, MQ, NH, NW, NZ, OU, PE, QF, S4, SQ, TP, UA, US, VS, WE, WN

2019: CX BOS-HKG, WE HKG-HKT, CA HKT-PEK-EWR, B6 EWR-BOS
 
lavalampluva
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Re: PVD losing DE to FRA?

Thu Sep 22, 2016 4:13 pm

That area of the country is so overly saturated with European gateways, I'm surprised DE felt it would work.
Remind me to send a thank you note to Mr. Boeing.
 
ritoitalia
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Re: PVD losing DE to FRA?

Wed Nov 23, 2016 5:43 pm

Hello, I flew the DE flights both summers from PVD, any news on if it´s a temporary suspension due to the runway extension work or a permanent cancellation?
Airlines Flown: AA & regional, DL & regional, US & regional, UA, DE, LH, IG, LX, AZ, FR, VY, TP, EI, AC & regional, BA, B6, DY, IB
Home airports: PVD/BOS, SUF
 
lavalampluva
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Re: PVD losing DE to FRA?

Wed Nov 23, 2016 6:25 pm

They still have Azores and TACV, which IMO is pretty unique from the U.S.
Remind me to send a thank you note to Mr. Boeing.
 
ritoitalia
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Re: PVD losing DE to FRA?

Wed Nov 23, 2016 6:30 pm

lavalampluva wrote:
They still have Azores and TACV, which IMO is pretty unique from the U.S.


They´re definitely both unique & great flights to have, but don´t offer a ton of connections in either Ponta Delgado or Praia.
Airlines Flown: AA & regional, DL & regional, US & regional, UA, DE, LH, IG, LX, AZ, FR, VY, TP, EI, AC & regional, BA, B6, DY, IB
Home airports: PVD/BOS, SUF
 
lavalampluva
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Re: PVD losing DE to FRA?

Wed Nov 23, 2016 7:17 pm

ritoitalia wrote:
lavalampluva wrote:
They still have Azores and TACV, which IMO is pretty unique from the U.S.


They´re definitely both unique & great flights to have, but don´t offer a ton of connections in either Ponta Delgado or Praia.

THere are not a whole lot of connections available in PVD. But the flights are very very infrequent.
Remind me to send a thank you note to Mr. Boeing.
 
usflyer123
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Re: PVD losing DE to FRA?

Wed Nov 23, 2016 7:41 pm

ive also noticed that Azores are adding PVD-OPO this summer, thats gotta be interesting!
for most people the sky is the limit. for those who love aviation, the sky is home...
 
lavalampluva
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Re: PVD losing DE to FRA?

Wed Nov 23, 2016 8:12 pm

usflyer123 wrote:
ive also noticed that Azores are adding PVD-OPO this summer, thats gotta be interesting!

I saw that. I didn't think that there was such demand for travel to that region from the Northeast. They have departures from both BOS and PVD.
Remind me to send a thank you note to Mr. Boeing.
 
RL757PVD
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Re: PVD losing DE to FRA?

Wed Nov 23, 2016 8:18 pm

There is plenty of demand here, in fact S4 is doubling the length of their season next year, OPO and LIS will be connections via PDL, not nonstop. One-way connections are also being made for LGW and BCN I believe.

On a related note since this thead was related to DE.... BOS-FRA LF in May of this year was below 60% That certainly plays into the ability of the PVD-FRA market to perform. LH discountain fares on empty planes hurts DE's fare/cost advantage at PVD
Experience is what you get when what you thought would work out didn't!
 
Cubsrule
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Re: PVD losing DE to FRA?

Wed Nov 23, 2016 11:44 pm

adamh8297 wrote:
B752OS wrote:

What is the secondary international airport in the Chicago area? Like I said before, it's unfortunate PVD is losing this service. While Boston and Providence are their own metro areas, I look at them as serving the broader region. If you compare the geographic area of the Boston CSA to others, such as Houston, Los Angeles, or Dallas, the Boston CSA is smaller in physical size. So therefore MHT and PVD are not a lot different than FLL, PBI, ONT, LGB, SNA, OAK, SJC, etc. in that they all serve the larger region in addition to the main airport.




MDW has Canada, Mexico, DR, and Jamaica but no Transatlantic service... Depending on fleet utilization - WN probably could run a weekend PVD-CUN


MDW has no TATL service because there is no airplane save the 752 that can do it due to stage length and runway length. It's poor comparison.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
BestWestern
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Re: PVD losing DE to FRA?

Thu Nov 24, 2016 12:22 am

Would PVD work for EI with connections via DUB?
Greetings from Hong Kong.... a subsidiary of China Inc.
 
gruenling
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Re: PVD losing DE to FRA?

Thu Nov 24, 2016 12:28 am

RL757PVD wrote:
aaflyer777 wrote:
Did EW pull out of BOS due to low loads or lack of pilots/planes? I was under the impression they were doing pretty well on BOS-CGN.


Loads were terrible considering it was the summer peak, I heard some days in the 40's (%) and fares were in the $500-600 r/t range.

They dropped September with less than 2 months notice, that says a lot.


This is not entirely correct.
There is something you should remember about this flight:
EW is not bookable originating in the US. (Let's hope it will be soon) Therefore every outbound passenger is a round-trip passenger and inbound loads are way better than outbound. According to Destatis (Federal Statistic Office) the loads got better after June:
Month/In/Out

June 57% / 21%
July 97% / 41%
August 95% / 78%

Air Berlin Loads looks quite similar, just more balanced. They both started terribly, but improved their loads relatively fast, even though the prices were pretty low.

I will continue to stand by the claim that without AB and EW at BOS this summer, DE would have been returning in 17.

:checkmark:
 
RacheyFlies
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Re: PVD losing DE to FRA?

Thu Nov 24, 2016 12:42 am

Ytraveller wrote:
Condor is also gone from PVD website's list of airlines: http://www.pvdairport.com/flights/airlines

I know they will leave PVD. But is there an announcement about they will be leaving PVD?
The best plane I've flown is an A380. They were the biggest and the best than other plane I've been on. :lol:
 
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Ytraveller
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Re: PVD losing DE to FRA?

Thu Nov 24, 2016 1:19 am

RacheyFlies wrote:
Ytraveller wrote:
Condor is also gone from PVD website's list of airlines: http://www.pvdairport.com/flights/airlines

I know they will leave PVD. But is there an announcement about they will be leaving PVD?

This article provides additional confirmation: http://www.providencejournal.com/news/2 ... ghts-to-ri
 
RacheyFlies
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Re: PVD losing DE to FRA?

Thu Nov 24, 2016 1:23 am

So is this the last destination in Europe for PVD or not?
The best plane I've flown is an A380. They were the biggest and the best than other plane I've been on. :lol:
 
clrd4t8koff
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Re: PVD losing DE to FRA?

Thu Nov 24, 2016 1:48 am

VS4ever wrote:
- so we probably won't be seeing any new entrants at all during 2017.

Depends on what you define as new entrants? if you are talking new airlines, you might be right, however 2017 is already seeing VS add BOS-MAN to its portfolio and uplifts elsewhere, so it's not all doom and gloom. The EW flight was always a wierd one and I am not surprised they are gone. AB is likely to go at some point if reports about their finances ring true and yes some of the others have cut back. As others have said, apart from BOG and the fabled coveted flight from India, what else is there to truly add apart from some UK TATL stuff with EDI and the like.

The explosion of flights and pax will reduce markedly in 2017, but i still see some growth there. Remember the 2nd daily for EK is not permanently cancelled at this point, only for the winter and don't be surprised if TK ultimately ramp up again in the summer.

All that said with the expansion of E not going to be open until 2021 or 2022 (I am ignoring the current 380 compatibility project) , it will be a case of work with what you have and if DY can bring their MAX's in that will probably the major growth, along with any pre-cleared options that might present themselves.

In terms of PVD, at this point, I don't see a lot of options, but if BOS does get maxed out, then along with MHT and ORH there will have to be options created for access if BOS cannot be re-built to expand its abilities. The interesting fact that, even with the numbers of pax busting at the seams. Numbers of movements are still down, because of bigger jets plying the same routes, compared to regionals way back when.


Did I miss somethin? I thought the second EK flight was only cancelled for 6-weeks over the fall (October and first half of November). Now it's cancelled through the winter as well is what you're saying?
 
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VS4ever
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Re: PVD losing DE to FRA?

Thu Nov 24, 2016 2:42 am

clrd4t8koff wrote:

Did I miss somethin? I thought the second EK flight was only cancelled for 6-weeks over the fall (October and first half of November). Now it's cancelled through the winter as well is what you're saying?


Nope you didn't it's already back, i can't remember the original posting date of my post, but i wasn't sure at the time whether it was going to be gone longer. Hence the "winter" scenario, but nothing missing, i hope it does better than last year now that it is.
That feeling when you sit at the end of a runway, brakes are released and the raw power takes over. Now that is a thing of beauty and it never gets old.
 
clrd4t8koff
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Re: PVD losing DE to FRA?

Thu Nov 24, 2016 3:24 am

VS4ever wrote:
clrd4t8koff wrote:

Did I miss somethin? I thought the second EK flight was only cancelled for 6-weeks over the fall (October and first half of November). Now it's cancelled through the winter as well is what you're saying?


Nope you didn't it's already back, i can't remember the original posting date of my post, but i wasn't sure at the time whether it was going to be gone longer. Hence the "winter" scenario, but nothing missing, i hope it does better than last year now that it is.


Ah, yes, I didn't notice that post of yours I quoted was from two months ago. Really hope the rest of the year is strong for EK @ BOS. Fingers crossed for the A380 :crossfingers: :spin:
 
praunda
Posts: 8
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Re: PVD losing DE to FRA?

Sat Dec 17, 2016 11:35 pm

gruenling wrote:
RL757PVD wrote:
aaflyer777 wrote:
Did EW pull out of BOS due to low loads or lack of pilots/planes? I was under the impression they were doing pretty well on BOS-CGN.


Loads were terrible considering it was the summer peak, I heard some days in the 40's (%) and fares were in the $500-600 r/t range.

They dropped September with less than 2 months notice, that says a lot.


This is not entirely correct.
There is something you should remember about this flight:
EW is not bookable originating in the US. (Let's hope it will be soon) Therefore every outbound passenger is a round-trip passenger and inbound loads are way better than outbound. According to Destatis (Federal Statistic Office) the loads got better after June:
Month/In/Out

June 57% / 21%
July 97% / 41%
August 95% / 78%

Air Berlin Loads looks quite similar, just more balanced. They both started terribly, but improved their loads relatively fast, even though the prices were pretty low.

I will continue to stand by the claim that without AB and EW at BOS this summer, DE would have been returning in 17.

:checkmark:


I've been meaning to ask somebody—why did Eurowings do that? Were they not allowed to sell tickets in the US? I tried to fly them several times last summer, I could book one-way to the US but could not put Boston in as a Departure point on their website. That could not have helped their launch here (and there was absolutely no marketing/publicity/advertising stateside, either). Thanks
 
airbazar
Posts: 10197
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 11:12 pm

Re: PVD losing DE to FRA?

Sun Dec 18, 2016 3:11 am

praunda wrote:
I've been meaning to ask somebody—why did Eurowings do that? Were they not allowed to sell tickets in the US? I tried to fly them several times last summer, I could book one-way to the US but could not put Boston in as a Departure point on their website. That could not have helped their launch here (and there was absolutely no marketing/publicity/advertising stateside, either). Thanks

I can't figure out what LH's business plan in Boston, is. Their fares are always some of the most expensive and yet, their LF's are some of the worst of all international carriers. The idea that DE failed at PVD because LH was undercutting their fares at BOS just doesn't make sense since as I said, LH is one of, if not the most expensive TATL airline from BOS. They must be getting a lot of premium passengers in order to justify flying planes at 60% and 70% LF.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: PVD losing DE to FRA?

Sun Dec 18, 2016 3:13 am

lavalampluva wrote:
That area of the country is so overly saturated with European gateways, I'm surprised DE felt it would work.

How do you figure?

In the northeast, there's only BOS, PVD, JFK, EWR, PHL.
That's five Euro gateways to cover nearly 1/6th of the nation's population.
Even if you add PIT/BWI/IAD, that's only 8 airports, in an even greater populated area.

Let's look at the Atlantic Southeast:
ATL, CLT, MCO, SFB, TPA, FLL, MIA, RSW.... also eight Euro gateways to cover a smaller population density.

Let's look at the Pacific southwest:
LAX, SAN, SFO, OAK, SJC.... five Euro gateways, but again a smaller population density. Heck, all in a single state.


....so why should an airline who makes Fairbanks and Yellowknife work, be intimidated by having a rather typical ratio of gateways/population, in the northeast?
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
CairnterriAIR
Posts: 691
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Re: PVD losing DE to FRA?

Sun Dec 18, 2016 12:24 pm

Northeast also has BDL with transatlantic service.
 
PVD757
Posts: 3286
Joined: Sun Aug 24, 2003 8:23 pm

Re: PVD losing DE to FRA?

Sun Dec 18, 2016 3:06 pm

LH didn't undercut DE in PVD, AB and EW did.

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