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compensateme
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Sat Dec 30, 2017 7:49 pm

I’d be surprised if it was DL. DL has already overscheduled its long haul fleet next summer (which will require some minor schedule changes to rectify), placed domestic-configured 757 on select routes and extended the life of a 763A to operate SLC/HNL. CLE/AMS would consume an entire aircraft and quite frankly I don’t see it happening; typically, by this point, DL’s summer long haul schedule is set sans minor schedule changes.

Not to mention that the addition of two LCC Atlantic carriers is placing downward pressure on legacy fares in the market, as previously noted. Just incredibly unlikely DL would launch service.
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Jshank83
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Sat Dec 30, 2017 7:49 pm

That flight will enable only a maximum two-stop flight to almost anywhere in the world.

This line makes me think it has to be a legacy (US or European) or someone with a codeshare with a legacy. Condor is about the only non legacy with codeshares that could make it happen. I might be missing others though. How much of CLE is DL? Is there a star alliance member (not LH) that would make more sense?
Last edited by Jshank83 on Sat Dec 30, 2017 7:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
greenair727
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Sat Dec 30, 2017 7:50 pm

^I've edited my post about AMS above--and then noticed these responses (on a new page). I've updated my post to say CLE-AMS on KLM, not DL. Though, if not KLM, I'd still go with CLE-AMS, but on DL.
 
lakeeffect
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Sat Dec 30, 2017 8:25 pm

greenair727 wrote:
^I've edited my post about AMS above--and then noticed these responses (on a new page). I've updated my post to say CLE-AMS on KLM, not DL. Though, if not KLM, I'd still go with CLE-AMS, but on DL.


It’s interesting to speculate on what the carrier/route might be, but if I had to bet I’d also go with DL to AMS. The wording makes it seem like it’s business oriented which removes the discount carriers. I’m also wondering if there’s a subsidy involved and this potential service is going to be daily or 3x weekly?

Then again, wasn’t there an announcement several years ago that a flight to Kansas City was going to be announced? We’re still waiting.
 
N766UA
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Sat Dec 30, 2017 8:31 pm

greenair727 wrote:
lakeeffect wrote:
masseybrown wrote:
Quoting from a longer Crain's Cleveland article:

""Building off the region's momentum, Cleveland Hopkins will continue to see record growth [in 2018]. Included in that growth, and along with Iceland Air and Wow Air's new service beginning in May of 2018, an additional new line of direct service to the European mainland will be announced as the first such flight operating out of an Ohio airport. That flight will enable only a maximum two-stop flight to almost anywhere in the world, enabling more investment in Cleveland by many firms."

— Joe Roman, president and CEO, Greater Cleveland Partnership"

Let the speculation begin ... Mainland would rule out the UK or Ireland, I guess. A legacy carrier? Norwegian? Condor seems to like PIT. The old flight to CDG did VERY well in the one year CO chose to run it. Frontier's corporate cousin Wizz Air?


That would be significant. I’d be concerned about the viability of three Europe flights all starting around the same time from CLE, however PIT has KEF, FRA, and CDG so it’s not that much of a stretch.

I’d have to imagine the new destination would be either CDG, AMS, or FRA?

You could theoretically rule out CDG as DL flies it from CVG, but since it’s in Kentucky you could exclude it as an Ohio airport for PR purposes. Didn’t DL recently announce TATL from IND? So perhaps this is going to be another DL TATL route.



This is some strange wording: "as the first such flight operating out of an Ohio airport"

I'm betting AMS on KLM--maybe DL.

DL flew CVG-AMS, and currently flies CVG-CDG. CLE had CDG and LON/LHR service, so those aren't new to CLE (or Ohio). Since such an emphasis was made on an "Ohio airport" suggests he speaks defensively about the destination. Who really cares if a flight is the first to where ever out of "Ohio", especially if you represent Cleveland businesses. We compete more with PIT and DTW as markets than we do as Cincinnati or anywhere else in Ohio. CLE is the biggest market at 4-5MM people and the biggest economy at near $200B GDP. We never even think of Cincinnati in Cleveland. So why say such a comment about "Ohio"? Hence, that's why I think its AMS. If it were FRA, there'd be no reason at all to mention DL service at CVG, and the "first Ohio..." comment would not be necessary. But since it was said, I'm leaning toward AMS.

Glad to hear---can't wait for the official announcement if this is the case. When does KLM and Delta usually make their announcements?


CVG is in Kentucky, so a “first for Ohio” would absolutely still count.
 
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CLEguy
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Sat Dec 30, 2017 8:32 pm

That comment by Joe Roman is quite surprising. I guess only time will tell if something is announced, but it better be soon for the summer 2018 schedule. What about LH or its subsidiary EW-Eurowings to FRA? There is still a sizable Star Alliance frequent flyer base in CLE that could feed such a flight. Another option is DE, also to FRA. Although it is no longer owned by LH, it uses Miles & More as its frequent flyer program and interlines with LH at FRA for seamless connections.
 
greenair727
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Sat Dec 30, 2017 8:45 pm

N766UA wrote:
CVG is in Kentucky, so a “first for Ohio” would absolutely still count.


I know it is. That's why I think its AMS and not FRA. FRA on LH or Condor--who partners with LH for the global connections cited in the quote--would also be a first in Cleveland. But since Joe Roman said "airport in Ohio"--and because Cincinnati is a wholly different market/place than Cleveland--and as the quote is worded so unnaturally, it seemed really forced, because, as CVG in Kentucky he is technically accurate. So he's making a point. If it were FRA, he wouldn't have to say anything at all.
 
cvgComair
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Sat Dec 30, 2017 8:47 pm

greenair727 wrote:
N766UA wrote:
CVG is in Kentucky, so a “first for Ohio” would absolutely still count.


I know it is. That's why I think its AMS and not FRA. FRA on LH or Condor--who partners with LH for the global connections cited in the quote--would also be a first in Cleveland. But since Joe Roman said "airport in Ohio"--and because Cincinnati is a wholly different market/place than Cleveland--and as the quote is worded so unnaturally, it seemed really forced, because, as CVG in Kentucky he is technically accurate. So he's making a point. If it were FRA, he wouldn't have to say anything at all.

DL served CVG-FRA nonstop until 2010... If we use that argument, we basically eliminate all of Europe as DL served CVG-ZRH/MUC/LGW/CDG/ORY/BRU/MUC/FRA/FCO/AMS at one point or another.
Last edited by cvgComair on Sat Dec 30, 2017 8:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
greenair727
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Sat Dec 30, 2017 8:50 pm

The quote from Joe Roman in Crain's is in a strange place. Its not on article about air service or 2018 predictions even. Its an opinion piece by Jay Miller, one of their writers, who thinks Amazon with pass on CLE for its HQ2. The quote is not part of the article, but forced into a sidebar box on the side of page. Just awkward placement by Crains editors or is there something significant about how this information is released? Here's the article:
http://www.crainscleveland.com/article/ ... heast-ohio
 
greenair727
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Sat Dec 30, 2017 8:56 pm

cvgComair wrote:
greenair727 wrote:
N766UA wrote:
CVG is in Kentucky, so a “first for Ohio” would absolutely still count.


I know it is. That's why I think its AMS and not FRA. FRA on LH or Condor--who partners with LH for the global connections cited in the quote--would also be a first in Cleveland. But since Joe Roman said "airport in Ohio"--and because Cincinnati is a wholly different market/place than Cleveland--and as the quote is worded so unnaturally, it seemed really forced, because, as CVG in Kentucky he is technically accurate. So he's making a point. If it were FRA, he wouldn't have to say anything at all.


DL served CVG-FRA nonstop until 2010...


Oh. I didn't know this. Well there goes the basis for my AMS over FRA argument. That said, I'll still go with KLM (and second choice DL) on AMS. There are a lot of Dutch companies in CLE (Azko Nobel, Philips Medical/Imaging, the container shipping service, etc.) and, despite the big UA pax contingent in CLE, there has been little interest by UA to support or operate CLE-FRA.
 
cvgComair
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Sat Dec 30, 2017 9:03 pm

greenair727 wrote:
Besides FRA, FCO and AMS, what other cities in mainland Europe did DL serve from CVG in the past? As, given Joe Roman's "Ohio" comment, this may give us the list of possible cities to speculate upon.

CVG-ZRH/MUC/LGW/CDG/ORY/BRU/MUC/FRA/FCO/AMS
 
greenair727
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Sat Dec 30, 2017 9:03 pm

Besides FRA, FCO and AMS, what other cities in mainland Europe did DL serve from CVG in the past? As, given Joe Roman's "Ohio" comment, this may give us the list of possible cities to speculate upon.
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Sat Dec 30, 2017 9:06 pm

greenair727 wrote:
cvgComair wrote:
greenair727 wrote:

I know it is. That's why I think its AMS and not FRA. FRA on LH or Condor--who partners with LH for the global connections cited in the quote--would also be a first in Cleveland. But since Joe Roman said "airport in Ohio"--and because Cincinnati is a wholly different market/place than Cleveland--and as the quote is worded so unnaturally, it seemed really forced, because, as CVG in Kentucky he is technically accurate. So he's making a point. If it were FRA, he wouldn't have to say anything at all.


DL served CVG-FRA nonstop until 2010...


Oh. I didn't know this. Well there goes the basis for my AMS over FRA argument. That said, I'll still go with KLM (and second choice DL) on AMS. There are a lot of Dutch companies in CLE (Azko Nobel, Philips Medical/Imaging, the container shipping service, etc.) and, despite the big UA pax contingent in CLE, there has been little interest by UA to support or operate CLE-FRA.


I may have missed this portion of the discussion, but KLM would not operate CLE-AMS it would be DL.
1.KLM doesn't have the A/C size for such a route
2.KLM doesn't even fly to BOS, DTW, or SEA so why would they operate CLE-AMS?
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cledaybuck
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Sat Dec 30, 2017 9:07 pm

greenair727 wrote:
The quote from Joe Roman in Crain's is in a strange place. Its not on article about air service or 2018 predictions even. Its an opinion piece by Jay Miller, one of their writers, who thinks Amazon with pass on CLE for its HQ2. The quote is not part of the article, but forced into a sidebar box on the side of page. Just awkward placement by Crains editors or is there something significant about how this information is released? Here's the article:
http://www.crainscleveland.com/article/ ... heast-ohio
I am skeptical that this news is legit. Seems like a weird way to announce something like this.
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cvgComair
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Sat Dec 30, 2017 9:08 pm

I don’t know what is happening above, my post keeps jumping around...
Here is the list again: CVG-ZRH/MUC/LGW/CDG/ORY/BRU/FRA/FCO/AMS
 
greenair727
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Sat Dec 30, 2017 9:18 pm

^Wow--that's a pretty impressive list! Do any remain besides CDG?

Looking at those cities, my vote is still AMS.
 
cvgComair
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Sat Dec 30, 2017 9:55 pm

greenair727 wrote:
^Wow--that's a pretty impressive list! Do any remain besides CDG?

Looking at those cities, my vote is still AMS.

Just CDG remains (besides WOW to KEF). LGW/AMS/FRA were all cut in late 2009 (FCO was 2008), it was quite the dramatic reduction in TATL service. I would love to see another TATL on DL from CVG, CDG had over 90% loads this past spring/summer. Given the amount DL has been adding to CVG recently (they just added back CVG-AUS today), I don't think it is that unrealistic, especially since DL is making non-hub TATL's working. It would not surprise me if DL adds another TATL from CVG or upgagues CVG-CDG for the 2018 summer.

Back to CLE... Luckily, DL seems interested in feeding CDG/AMS through non hubs. DL already has PIT/IND/RDU-CDG and MCO-AMS. There have been various rumors of CMH/AUS-AMS and now CLE, I would love to see these happen and DL seems to be the carrier willing to do it. The pattern recently has been DL shifting its larger cities to AF/KLM and adding smaller cities on their own metal. They are also upguaging numerous TATL flights previously on 752's to 763's next year, so I would assume these aircraft are available for more TATL flights? The 752 would certainly be in range for either CLE-CDG or AMS.

I wonder what Sky Team loyalty there is in CLE for such a flight. CO was in Sky Team, so I figure there must be some level of Sky Team demand. Time will tell, I agree with others that this announcement seems slightly weird, but I am rooting for it to happen! :box:
 
greenair727
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Sat Dec 30, 2017 10:24 pm

A dramatic reduction indeed! Its good to see DL adding some capacity back to CVG. Re Sky Team loyalty vs Star Alliance in CLE, I wouldn't worry about that. CLE has been so starved for direct mainland TATL service that people in CLE wouldn't think twice about jumping on DL/KL to AMS, rather than fly UA and change planes in IAD/EWR. I, for one, even with elite status on UA, am shifting all of my TATL flights to Icelandair (providing they serve the city on the European side), to be able to fly direct into CLE (over an east coast hub) and to avoid UA, as I do not want to support UA's killing of the Cleveland hub. If KL/DL enter the market as well, I'll base it on in destination, schedule, fare, etc between FI and DL/KL. I'm sure I'm not alone in this thinking, so UA loyalty won't matter if such a substantially better product (direct to AMS) is on the table.
 
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compensateme
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Sat Dec 30, 2017 10:32 pm

greenair727 wrote:
^I've edited my post about AMS above--and then noticed these responses (on a new page). I've updated my post to say CLE-AMS on KLM, not DL. Though, if not KLM, I'd still go with CLE-AMS, but on DL.


I’d be even more surprised if it was KL. KL’s fleet is equally stretched next summer, DL & KL usually announce new service jointly in the fall and KL has never served “secondary” US cities (besides NW/DL hubs).

Quite honestly, it’s incredibly doubtful any more Atlantic service will be added to CLE within the next year, despite any PR buzz. As discussed previously, the market has to absorb two LCC that are placing downward pressure on legacy fares.
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lakeeffect
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Sat Dec 30, 2017 11:56 pm

greenair727 wrote:
The quote from Joe Roman in Crain's is in a strange place. Its not on article about air service or 2018 predictions even. Its an opinion piece by Jay Miller, one of their writers, who thinks Amazon with pass on CLE for its HQ2. The quote is not part of the article, but forced into a sidebar box on the side of page. Just awkward placement by Crains editors or is there something significant about how this information is released? Here's the article:
http://www.crainscleveland.com/article/ ... heast-ohio


That leads me to believe that the potential new service is more of a wish than reality.

Traffic at CLE in 2018 is likely not going to be record growth as there would need to be a ton of new capacity added. However, there’s probably some continued spillage of CAK traffic over to CLE. CAK posted a 30.3% drop in traffic in November. I’m sure a lot of that traffic shifted over to CLE, but probably not enough for record growth in 2018.
 
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mbm3
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Sun Dec 31, 2017 12:22 am

DL was VERY close to starting CLE-CDG 752 service within the past couple of years as AF liked the traffic they got from CO back in the day. Some sort of logistical issue got in the way. As for Roman's recent quote, with that kind of detail it certainly seems more than a trial balloon or wishful thinking. My first thought for the next international carrier was Norwegian 787 service to LGW/CDG/BCN/FCO, but "two stop flight to anywhere in the world" does lead me to think Skyteam or Star Alliance. Hmm...
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ncflyer
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Sun Dec 31, 2017 12:55 am

I’m sorry but I just can’t get excited about this. It’s prediction time of year and a prediction issue. What carrier in their right mind would come in to Cleveland at this point. We all just got done commenting on how fares are halved with the arrival of the two Icelandic carriers. The airport director did everything but hold a press conference for new SLC service by year end. But here we are— nothing. Reading the speculation on here, nothing makes any sense. Delta is so much stronger in pit ind cvg rdu. I hope I’m wrong. LH wouldn’t fly here when UA/CO had hubs yet they would now? A short drive from DTW?
 
joeman
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Sun Dec 31, 2017 2:48 am

lakeeffect wrote:
Then again, wasn’t there an announcement several years ago that a flight to Kansas City was going to be announced? We’re still waiting.


ncflyer wrote:
The airport director did everything but hold a press conference for new SLC service by year end.

Maybe Condor someday
 
masseybrown
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Sun Dec 31, 2017 3:56 am

Off the wall, but it suits the first for Ohio idea: a Middle East carrier flies to CLE via some 5th freedom stop in Europe. I believe they all (including El Al) have 5th freedom rights.
 
msycajun
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Sun Dec 31, 2017 4:11 am

masseybrown wrote:
Off the wall, but it suits the first for Ohio idea: a Middle East carrier flies to CLE via some 5th freedom stop in Europe. I believe they all (including El Al) have 5th freedom rights.

Also would explain the "two-stop" comment, which I thought was odd.
 
greenair727
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Sun Dec 31, 2017 5:03 am

^I missed that in the quote as the "Ohio" comment threw me. Now that I've re-read it, that makes a lot of sense as an explanation for the odd 'two-stop' comment. Question re 5th freedom in this case, is the agreement for the European common aviation market (or similar) or specific countries within Europe---and if that latter, which ones? If it is an ME3 or El Al carrier, which one? QR has been expanding a lot, but Etihad makes sense as the Cleveland Clinic runs two hospitals in Abu Dhabi. There are other business linkages as well. I'd be surprised if this would El Al, as they tend to fly to cities with large Jewish populations. While CLE has a big Jewish population--ranking about 8th in the US, its still behind San Francisco, Chicago, Philly, and Washington all of which do not have El Al service. My guess here would be QR or EY. Thoughts?

Then again, as the whole quote is so awkwardly stated, could the 'two-stop' mean the second stop is the destination? Here's the quote: "That flight will enable only a maximum two-stop flight to almost anywhere in the world..." In this case, could he have meant CLE-AMS-JNB/New Delhi/Tokyo/xxx where JNB/New Delhi/Tokyo/xxx is the 'second stop' and AMS is the first? In which case it is a US/European carrier like KLM/DL?
 
Jshank83
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Sun Dec 31, 2017 6:32 am

^ I am assuming two stop means two connections. A one stop means one connection so two would mean two before your final stop.
 
ncflyer
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Sun Dec 31, 2017 1:25 pm

I just went on line to read the quote. It’s next to a prediction by an auto dealer that Facebook will have a precipitous drop in users. LOL!

Just saying…it’s a prediction issue. Way way way too much reading in to it here.
 
masseybrown
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Sun Dec 31, 2017 3:38 pm

lakeeffect wrote:
Then again, wasn’t there an announcement several years ago that a flight to Kansas City was going to be announced? We’re still waiting.


Months, not years ... ;)

My bet is WN told Kennedy they were going to start the route and then WN got in a little dust up with MCI management over expansion and cost of the airport. I believe they more or less told MCI, "No expansion unless ..." Once they have an agreement over scope and cost, perhaps CLE service will be back on the table.

On the Roman statement, it may be just a prediction; but consider that Roman is in a very good place to predict. Plus he's not given to spouting off wildly. GCP contributed to the incentives given the Icelanders and will no doubt be part of any int'l service agreement in the future. My bet is something has been agreed upon with the details still being worked on. I agree it may be for 2018 announcement and 2019 start up; still January-February used to be the announcement time for summer plans. It only became November or earlier after the IATA summer slot discussions became public kmowledge.
 
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Sun Dec 31, 2017 4:58 pm

Please continue your discussion and to post your updates in the new thread:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1382405

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