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ro1960
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An airline pilot reveals why the Boeing 757 is truly unique

Mon Sep 26, 2016 3:44 pm

Can anyone shed some light on what is said in this article?
http://www.businessinsider.com.au/boeing-757-pilot-reveals-737-not-replacement-2016-9

“The 757 can be off the ground in 4,000 ft. and under 140 knots,” he told us. However, Smith recounts being in the cockpit jump seat of a 737 as two other pilots were flying. During takeoff, the author noticed that the plane didn’t lift off until 160 knots and used up much more runway".
It looks like the said pilot bases his statement on a one-off impression in the cockpit. Don't we have better sources in 2016 to support this claim?

“No one know really why, but the 757 has really strong wake turbulence,” Smith told us. “The early 757s had worse wake turbulence than the 747.”
No one knows really?
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Re: An airline pilot reveals why the Boeing 757 is truly unique

Mon Sep 26, 2016 4:49 pm

Interesting read. From what I understand, even the performance of the latest 737, the 737-MAX9, doesn't match the performance of the 757 but if Boeing develops the 737-MAX10, or 10X, the performance and capacity will come pretty close to matching the specs of the 757-200. Now it will be interesting to compare the 737-MAX8/9 vs the A321NeoLR and see how the latter will be doing. The bottom line is, the 757 is unique in terms of seat mile cost and performance.
I believe that Icelandair has long term plans on replacing its 757s with 737-MAX8s and 9s.
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Re: An airline pilot reveals why the Boeing 757 is truly unique

Mon Sep 26, 2016 5:26 pm

ro1960 wrote:
“No one know really why, but the 757 has really strong wake turbulence,” Smith told us. “The early 757s had worse wake turbulence than the 747.”
No one knows really?


Its not stronger.

Just another pilot full of sh!t shocker.
 
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Re: An airline pilot reveals why the Boeing 757 is truly unique

Mon Sep 26, 2016 6:17 pm

The B757 is gone, tooling is gone, no one will build another one. The role has been taken over by more modern and lighter planes. Small niches seems to be irreplaceable, but not worthy to develop an a/c for. Airlines stopped ordering the Boeing 757, they spoke with their feet, end of story.
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Re: An airline pilot reveals why the Boeing 757 is truly unique

Mon Sep 26, 2016 6:38 pm

It'll be 2085 and we'll have people discussing the 757 and how it should still be made... Love the aircraft though!
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Re: An airline pilot reveals why the Boeing 757 is truly unique

Mon Sep 26, 2016 6:50 pm

ro1960 wrote:
No one knows really?


They do. It doesn't.
 
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Re: An airline pilot reveals why the Boeing 757 is truly unique

Mon Sep 26, 2016 6:52 pm

Huh?

Ok. The 757 was ocer-powered and over-winged. That created a fun plane to fly... But I do not pay extra for a fun plane. Only once over decades of flying did 757 performance make a difference that enabled the pilot to fly around turbulence and get us to DFW on time.

I'd rather save money (I was going to Ft. Worth anyway).

The higher thrust A321NEO and the A320NEO shortfield kit remove much of the need for 757 performance. If a Boeing operator needs the performance, the -7 will deliver.

ThecA321LR will carry a passenger for 30% less. Who will pay 40% *more* to fly the 757? The 738 took the market from it. The -8 MAX will cost about 12% less per passenger than the 738...

A great plane whose era will be gone by 2025 (excluding freight).

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Re: An airline pilot reveals why the Boeing 757 is truly unique

Mon Sep 26, 2016 6:58 pm

Amiga500 wrote:
ro1960 wrote:
“No one know really why, but the 757 has really strong wake turbulence,” Smith told us. “The early 757s had worse wake turbulence than the 747.”
No one knows really?


Its not stronger.

Just another pilot full of sh!t shocker.


Nope, many countries actually apply the heavy wake turbulence criteria for the 757, despite it actually being a medium.
 
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Re: An airline pilot reveals why the Boeing 757 is truly unique

Mon Sep 26, 2016 7:08 pm

The 757 also does very well on Trans-Atlantic routes. First of all, the 757 is a narrowbody has just the right amount of range to serve smaller European markets profitability.
 
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Re: An airline pilot reveals why the Boeing 757 is truly unique

Mon Sep 26, 2016 7:10 pm

VSMUT wrote:
Nope, many countries actually apply the heavy wake turbulence criteria for the 757, despite it actually being a medium.


They may do - but it is erroneous for them to do so.
 
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Re: An airline pilot reveals why the Boeing 757 is truly unique

Mon Sep 26, 2016 7:52 pm

I read somewhere that the 757 was optimized for the -200's wing and that they never intended to stretch it. I forget which book I read this in or I would cite it. Anyone else hear this?
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Re: An airline pilot reveals why the Boeing 757 is truly unique

Mon Sep 26, 2016 8:08 pm

Amiga500 wrote:
ro1960 wrote:
“No one know really why, but the 757 has really strong wake turbulence,” Smith told us. “The early 757s had worse wake turbulence than the 747.”
No one knows really?


Its not stronger.

Just another pilot full of sh!t shocker.


An what proof or expertise do you have to say the contrary? Even after the "heavy" threshold was bumped up to 300K pounds, the 757 still uses heavy separation criteria on the ATC side of things.
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Re: An airline pilot reveals why the Boeing 757 is truly unique

Mon Sep 26, 2016 8:52 pm

Amiga500 wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
Nope, many countries actually apply the heavy wake turbulence criteria for the 757, despite it actually being a medium.


They may do - but it is erroneous for them to do so.


The "heavy" designation a matter of maximum operating weight.. if the aircraft is capable of operating at the threshold weight something like 250K lbs?) it's a "heavy"...

Useful discussion here:
viewtopic.php?t=724259
 
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Re: An airline pilot reveals why the Boeing 757 is truly unique

Mon Sep 26, 2016 9:16 pm

YYZYYT wrote:
Amiga500 wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
Nope, many countries actually apply the heavy wake turbulence criteria for the 757, despite it actually being a medium.


They may do - but it is erroneous for them to do so.


The "heavy" designation a matter of maximum operating weight.. if the aircraft is capable of operating at the threshold weight something like 250K lbs?) it's a "heavy"...

Useful discussion here:
viewtopic.php?t=724259

it used to be 255,000lbs. Now it is 300,000Lbs, which means all 757's are only considered large.
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Re: An airline pilot reveals why the Boeing 757 is truly unique

Mon Sep 26, 2016 9:38 pm

Thanks for the replies. How about the take-off runway length needed. Is this true? It can just be based on one observation on particular day by this pilot. Does the 737 need significantly more runway to take off than the 757?
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Re: An airline pilot reveals why the Boeing 757 is truly unique

Mon Sep 26, 2016 10:10 pm

ro1960 wrote:
Thanks for the replies. How about the take-off runway length needed. Is this true? It can just be based on one observation on particular day by this pilot. Does the 737 need significantly more runway to take off than the 757?

Yes, the 757 has considerably better T/O performance compared to the 737-800 or -900. The 737-700 however is pretty sporty with the higher thrust engines on it from what I have heard other pilots say. Delta for example has 10 737-700's that they use predominately for hot and high airports that otherwise would see 757 service or sees 757 service by the other airlines.
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Re: An airline pilot reveals why the Boeing 757 is truly unique

Mon Sep 26, 2016 10:35 pm

I must be one of the 757 crazed a.nutters too, because the second I read the title, I was so excited! There is just something about a 757 that is special. The -200 anyway. I think she is a graceful thing with rocket power. I get why Boeing doesn't make them, I get they have been replaced for most missions. I know this must have been discussed 757 times, but what will UA do when it comes time to replace the p.s. 757's...and the "just right" size for secondary TATL routes. Can a 737-MAX10 make it from EWR to Lisbon or Glasgow etc?

I often wondered if Embraer ever considered an E-295 to get into that size aircraft...I think it would be a very pretty place if Embraer ever went up to a mainline ac.
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Re: An airline pilot reveals why the Boeing 757 is truly unique

Mon Sep 26, 2016 11:25 pm

The 737-800 CAN have pretty good runway performance. With that said, I was on a real dog this past Friday. On a Flight from PHL-DFW, we nearly used up the entirety of Runway 27L. Yes, it would have be a derated takeoff, but I really wondered if we would get off the ground :)

An engine out at V1 would have probably made me shard my pants... :)
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Re: An airline pilot reveals why the Boeing 757 is truly unique

Tue Sep 27, 2016 1:34 am

gatibosgru wrote:
It'll be 2085 and we'll have people discussing the 757 and how it should still be made... Love the aircraft though!

That is a testament to the basic goodness of the airframe. As good as newer, lighter a/c may be, I don't know if we'll see another game-changer like the 757 was.
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Re: An airline pilot reveals why the Boeing 757 is truly unique

Tue Sep 27, 2016 3:55 am

As a pax, I love the feel of the 757 on takeoff and climb. The 739 feels like a bloated cow that's barely going to make it.
 
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Re: An airline pilot reveals why the Boeing 757 is truly unique

Tue Sep 27, 2016 8:32 am

flightsimer wrote:
ro1960 wrote:
Thanks for the replies. How about the take-off runway length needed. Is this true? It can just be based on one observation on particular day by this pilot. Does the 737 need significantly more runway to take off than the 757?

Yes, the 757 has considerably better T/O performance compared to the 737-800 or -900. The 737-700 however is pretty sporty with the higher thrust engines on it from what I have heard other pilots say. Delta for example has 10 737-700's that they use predominately for hot and high airports that otherwise would see 757 service or sees 757 service by the other airlines.


Isn't it really more of a question that the 737-800 and -900 have worse T/O and landing performance compared to other aircraft? I know a handful of pilots who fly the 737-800, and have flown some 33 hours on a 737-800 simulator myself. From what little I know, it has a rather high landing and take-off speed compared to other similar sized jets (roughly 10-20 knots faster than an A320 or 757). They also have a higher thrust to weight ratio (at MTOW, with most powerful engine), so they will reach any given speed faster than a 737 too.

:)
 
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Re: An airline pilot reveals why the Boeing 757 is truly unique

Tue Sep 27, 2016 8:47 am

ro1960 wrote:
Thanks for the replies. How about the take-off runway length needed. Is this true? It can just be based on one observation on particular day by this pilot. Does the 737 need significantly more runway to take off than the 757?


The 737NG is rotation limited. The short field kit initially made available for the -900 does not remedy this completely.
( will be interesting to see how the MAX performs.) After all one 757 design objective was short field performance :-)

Then for the same range a 737 will be nearer MTOW than a 757.
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Re: An airline pilot reveals why the Boeing 757 is truly unique

Tue Sep 27, 2016 12:07 pm

flightsimer wrote:
An what proof or expertise do you have to say the contrary?



Oh, besides myself, just Boeing and NASA.

http://www.airspacemag.com/need-to-know ... -50733375/


Boeing maintains that there is nothing about the wing design that would cause wake turbulence. "It's because [the 757] is so quiet and operationally efficient, and able to fly into airports for the smaller guys, that the [FAA] restriction was levied," says Elizabeth Verdier of Boeing public relations. The 757 is no longer in production, although most of the 1,050 airplanes sold to airlines are still in service.

"The wake from the 757 is no stronger or weaker than you would predict from the weight, span, and speed of the airplane," agrees NASA's David Hinton, who has taken wake measurements at airports around the country and is principal investigator of NASA's NextGen Airportal Project. In the 1990s, engineers tested a number of airplanes to determine safe following distances. "We were really looking for ways to predict wake vortex behavior in general," Hinton says. "There's a formula: You can take the weight, the speed, and the wingspan of an airplane, and then you can predict the circulation strength from that. And we never saw anything [for the 757] that differed from what you would expect."

At about the same time, the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration did a study at Idaho Falls to measure velocities in the wakes, and released a report concluding that the 757 wake was the strongest the researchers had ever seen. That led to hearings on Capitol Hill and the unusual spacing regulations for the 757. But the peak velocities measured by NOAA were very localized, according to Hinton. "It was a meteorologist writing on a parameter that does not correlate to the threat to a following airplane," he says. "If you go back and look at the circulation strength of the wake, which does correlate to how hazardous it is [to the trailing aircraft], the 757 wake was no different than you would expect."

Nevertheless, the new regulations stuck. "I can understand why people would think [the 757's wake vortex] was stronger," says Hinton, "because there was so much hysteria at the time. But I would hate to see the debate reignited."
 
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Re: An airline pilot reveals why the Boeing 757 is truly unique

Tue Sep 27, 2016 1:03 pm

Sorry, but that link is full of flaws:


Boeing maintains that there is nothing about the wing design that would cause wake turbulence.


All planes cause wake turbulence.


"The wake from the 757 is no stronger or weaker than you would predict from the weight, span, and speed of the airplane," agrees NASA's David Hinton, who has taken wake measurements at airports around the country and is principal investigator of NASA's NextGen Airportal Project.


A pretty vague statement. Compared to what prediction? Predictions that show that the 757's wake is actually as bad as it's reputation?


"There's a formula: You can take the weight, the speed, and the wingspan of an airplane, and then you can predict the circulation strength from that. And we never saw anything [for the 757] that differed from what you would expect."


First, wake turbulence is primarily a result of jetwash and wingtip vortices. The wingtip vortices are a result of spanwise flow. At low speeds you will need to create more lift, thereby creating more spanwise flow and therefore more wake turbulence. Since the 757 is a heavy-ish aircraft with a low landing speed, that means a massive amount of of lift, and therefore a lot of wake turbulence.

Secondly, what did they actually expect? Without stating anything, they could be expecting anything, including the actual bad wake turbulence of the 757.


"I can understand why people would think [the 757's wake vortex] was stronger," says Hinton, "because there was so much hysteria at the time.


It took me less than 30 seconds on google to find several pages of airline pilots discussing how they find 757s much worse to follow than any other aircraft. Everything from CRJ to A340 and 747 pilots. Danish rules also specifically refer to "operational experience" as the reason why 757s should be treated as heavies in regards to separation.

:)
 
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Re: An airline pilot reveals why the Boeing 757 is truly unique

Tue Sep 27, 2016 1:36 pm

NichCage wrote:
The 757 also does very well on Trans-Atlantic routes. First of all, the 757 is a narrowbody has just the right amount of range to serve smaller European markets profitability.


It's profitable mainly because it was purchased many years ago for a different purpose and was paid off years ago too.

The 12% more per passenger cost means those airlines had to find a niche where the 757 could remain profitable, or send them off to the desert. Most of them are in the desert (or have come back to life flying freight).

As we see from Boeing's hemming and hawing about the MOM, if you'd build an aircraft to fill its role from scratch, it'd be a big challenge to get enough customers so you can have a successful product launch.

Therefore, in my opinion, the profitability of 757 on TATL routes is mostly an accident of history and/or circumstantial.
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Re: An airline pilot reveals why the Boeing 757 is truly unique

Tue Sep 27, 2016 2:19 pm

VSMUT wrote:
From what little I know, it has a rather high landing and take-off speed compared to other similar sized jets (roughly 10-20 knots faster than an A320 or 757).


Interesting. I noticed the other day that the 737 was landing faster than the 320. But I thought it was maybe just a one off thing or just an impression.
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Re: An airline pilot reveals why the Boeing 757 is truly unique

Tue Sep 27, 2016 2:23 pm

When all is said and done the 737 is not in the same league, as the 757.
 
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Re: An airline pilot reveals why the Boeing 757 is truly unique

Tue Sep 27, 2016 2:31 pm

twaconnie wrote:
When all is said and done the 737 is not in the same league, as the 757.



That's correct.


...and neither is the 320/321.

The 757 is in a league of its own.
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Re: An airline pilot reveals why the Boeing 757 is truly unique

Tue Sep 27, 2016 2:51 pm

I think people are taking this a little too seriously. It seems to me this was a pilot who is a fan of the 757 and prefers it for that reason. We all have a favourite team, object, etc that we claim is the best. There is no reality to the claim, but you believe it all the same as you are a fan.

For me, there will never be a plane the same as the 757. The look, the feel, the power. Nothing beats that combination.
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Re: An airline pilot reveals why the Boeing 757 is truly unique

Tue Sep 27, 2016 2:53 pm

FriscoHeavy wrote:
twaconnie wrote:
When all is said and done the 737 is not in the same league, as the 757.


That's correct.

...and neither is the 320/321.

The 757 is in a league of its own.


Too bad for it that it has too much wing, too much thrust, too old engines, and weighs too much.

All of these things mean it's confined to some pretty niche roles.
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Re: An airline pilot reveals why the Boeing 757 is truly unique

Wed Sep 28, 2016 11:32 am

VSMUT wrote:
First, wake turbulence is primarily a result of jetwash and wingtip vortices. The wingtip vortices are a result of spanwise flow. At low speeds you will need to create more lift, thereby creating more spanwise flow and therefore more wake turbulence. Since the 757 is a heavy-ish aircraft with a low landing speed, that means a massive amount of of lift, and therefore a lot of wake turbulence.


At low speed you don't need to make any more lift than high speed. Your aircraft is the same weight - you will have to increase your camber (high lift devices) or angle of attack to increase CL compensate for reduced airspeed.

Indeed, with the wing area of the 757, it has a basic lower wing loading* - although improved aerodynamic analysis techniques will mean the A320 high lift and 737NG high lift devices are likely more effective.

*757-200, MTOW = 116,000 kg, S = 181 m2, W/S = 640 kg/m2
737-400, MTOW = 68,000 kg, S = 105.4 m2, W/S = 645 kg/m2

The aspect ratio of the 757 wing is a touch smaller at ~8 vs. ~9 for the 737, which will mean more induced drag. But that is not a spectacular deviation.


There is no reason for and no physical means to enable the 757 to produce a more intense wake than competitors**. Any one who "believes" otherwise is just imagining things.

**unless Boeing royally f**ked up the wing tapering and aerofoil blending from root to tip - but that'd mean it would have crap fuel burn in cruise.
 
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Re: An airline pilot reveals why the Boeing 757 is truly unique

Wed Sep 28, 2016 2:14 pm

Amiga500 wrote:
At low speed you don't need to make any more lift than high speed. Your aircraft is the same weight - you will have to increase your camber (high lift devices) or angle of attack to increase CL compensate for reduced airspeed.


:x Yep, I made an embarrassing mistake there. I did mean CL, not just lift :)


**unless Boeing royally f**ked up the wing tapering and aerofoil blending from root to tip - but that'd mean it would have crap fuel burn in cruise.


Isn't is widely regarded for having a crap fuel burn? There is a reason why everybody has been phasing them out so fast lately, or pushing them onto routes where no other aircraft could compete.

The Aviation Partners website also has a few graphs that suggest that blended winglets give a higher percentage saving on 757s compared to 767s or 737NGs, indicating that the 757 wing was less optimal to begin with.

:)
 
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Re: An airline pilot reveals why the Boeing 757 is truly unique

Wed Sep 28, 2016 2:46 pm

My airline has said that every 739 that replaces a 757 saves $2 million a year. Granted this was before fuel dropped like a rock, but not all the savings were fuel burn.

The 739ER was designed for NY to west coast transcons where you can take off and land on a long runway. For that it works exceedingly well. It's a bean counter's dream.
 
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Re: An airline pilot reveals why the Boeing 757 is truly unique

Wed Sep 28, 2016 3:54 pm

flylku wrote:
I read somewhere that the 757 was optimized for the -200's wing and that they never intended to stretch it. I forget which book I read this in or I would cite it. Anyone else hear this?

It's the other way round

The wing was optimised for the -300 from the start. Or, more accurately, Boeing future-proofed the design so that the 757 wing would support a stretch without having to go through expensive contortions and redesigning the wing to match a stretched body. Similarly, the engine manufacturers developed the motors to Boeing's specifications so that no expensive new engines and test programs would need to happen.

That sort of explains why the 757-200 is such a hot-rod amongst its peers.

as for turbulence, stand underneath a 757 as it goes over the approach lights. Ideally a non-winglet version. After it goes over, some seconds later you will hear a pretty loud crack like a whip as the vortices descend to ground level. That's at minimum approach speed and low level so they must be having a pronounced effect at speed and altitude.
 
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Re: An airline pilot reveals why the Boeing 757 is truly unique

Wed Sep 28, 2016 4:24 pm

lightsaber wrote:
Huh?

Ok. The 757 was ocer-powered and over-winged. That created a fun plane to fly... But I do not pay extra for a fun plane. Only once over decades of flying did 757 performance make a difference that enabled the pilot to fly around turbulence and get us to DFW on time.

I'd rather save money (I was going to Ft. Worth anyway).

The higher thrust A321NEO and the A320NEO shortfield kit remove much of the need for 757 performance. If a Boeing operator needs the performance, the -7 will deliver.

ThecA321LR will carry a passenger for 30% less. Who will pay 40% *more* to fly the 757? The 738 took the market from it. The -8 MAX will cost about 12% less per passenger than the 738...

A great plane whose era will be gone by 2025 (excluding freight).

Lightsaber


The 757 is remarkably smooth, climbs fast, and certainly does well in turbulence over other planes. The 321NEO will be great, but to the author's point he argues Boeing doesn't have a replacement for the 757 and is struggling to cope with it (the 739ER isn't good enough.)

People this is a fun article written by a pilot. Lighten up a little.
 
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Re: An airline pilot reveals why the Boeing 757 is truly unique

Wed Sep 28, 2016 5:25 pm

Channex757 wrote:
It's the other way round

The wing was optimised for the -300 from the start. Or, more accurately, Boeing future-proofed the design so that the 757 wing would support a stretch without having to go through expensive contortions and redesigning the wing to match a stretched body. Similarly, the engine manufacturers developed the motors to Boeing's specifications so that no expensive new engines and test programs would need to happen.

That sort of explains why the 757-200 is such a hot-rod amongst its peers.

as for turbulence, stand underneath a 757 as it goes over the approach lights. Ideally a non-winglet version. After it goes over, some seconds later you will hear a pretty loud crack like a whip as the vortices descend to ground level. That's at minimum approach speed and low level so they must be having a pronounced effect at speed and altitude.


You get that effect standing under a CRJ200 on short final as well during calm winds. It has little to do with the strength of the wake.

At many US airports, we are now using wake recat for separation criteria, which divides up all aircraft types primarily based on wingspan and weight. The 757 (all variants) is the same wake turbulence category as all B737 and A320 variants, among others. For those airports using it, in-trail separation is "minimum radar separation" or 1 mile and diverging by 15 degrees, since they are like types. From firsthand experience I've seen a B752 hit wake on the upwind (and report it as such) staggered behind a B739. I've also seen a CRJ2 execute a missed approach staggered behind a B752. Wake behavior depends tremendously on the two aircraft and wind conditions.

Even US airports not using wake recat are no longer applying heavy criteria to 757s. Do a word search in the 7110.65 here https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Order/ATC.pdf for "aircraft classes" and you will see the non-recat distinctions in the Pilot-Controller Glossary. Other than small-behind-B757 operations, the B757 is treated in all other instances as a large. Likewise, separation criteria in Chapters 3 and 5 only reference a B757 specifically when a small is operating behind.
 
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Re: An airline pilot reveals why the Boeing 757 is truly unique

Wed Sep 28, 2016 6:04 pm

Channex757 wrote:
That's at minimum approach speed and low level so they must be having a pronounced effect at speed and altitude.


Wake turbulence is worst at low speed, such as during the approach. It is not so bad when at speed and altitude ;)
 
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Re: An airline pilot reveals why the Boeing 757 is truly unique

Thu Sep 29, 2016 11:25 am

First things first, the 757 is unique and special, and in particular it is a beautiful airplane.

It had its issue, too, both from passenger and economics points of view. Not going into that now.

But I wanted to continue on something that you said:

questions wrote:
As a pax, I love the feel of the 757 on takeoff and climb. The 739 feels like a bloated cow that's barely going to make it.


Haha. Well said. But it isn't just the 739, that honestly seems to be the norm, these days. I'm not complaining about engine reservers on 739 or other planes. Frankly, there's enough there. But everything is being *flown* so economically and so standardised way, that it is boring. And whatever there is in the 73x or 32x platform, it gets used to the last cm. You are lucky to have a galley at all, or a bathroom. And by the way, the cow is bloated because it ate too much. It overdosed on sardines, and you are one of the sardines.

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