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KarelXWB
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Hawaiian Airlines mulls European destinations

Tue Sep 27, 2016 1:15 pm

The upcoming A330-800neo would allow Hawaiian to operate non-stop flights to London.

Hawaiian Airlines is considering the possibility of starting direct flights to Europe with some of the six A330-800neo that in order.

Speaking to the Wall Street Journal, the president and CEO of the company, Mark Dunkerley, said that while his company is interested in potential flights from Honolulu to London, has not investigated whether the aircraft would be used have the radius and the ability adapted to operate the service.

...

The first deliveries of A330-800neo will not happen before 2019, while next year the airline will receive its first A321neo of the sixteen who ordered. The latter will be used to replace the A330-200 used for flights on the West Coast of the United States, which instead will be used for flights to Asia.


Source
https://aviationplaza.wordpress.com/201 ... i-a330neo/
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Polot
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Re: Hawaiian Airlines mulls European destinations

Tue Sep 27, 2016 1:27 pm

KarelXWB wrote:
Speaking to the Wall Street Journal, the president and CEO of the company, Mark Dunkerley, said that while his company is interested in potential flights from Honolulu to London, has not investigated whether the aircraft would be used have the radius and the ability adapted to operate the service.


So in other words, HA is not currently serious about flying to London anytime soon.
 
b747400erf
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Re: Hawaiian Airlines mulls European destinations

Tue Sep 27, 2016 2:01 pm

I want to fly to the moon, but I have not investigated whether I could do that. Now THIS is not a newsworthy story, but I see it is just a blog.
 
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readytotaxi
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Re: Hawaiian Airlines mulls European destinations

Tue Sep 27, 2016 2:04 pm

How long would a non-stop be?
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KarelXWB
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Re: Hawaiian Airlines mulls European destinations

Tue Sep 27, 2016 2:09 pm

b747400erf wrote:
but I see it is just a blog.


Actually the source is Bloomberg, which is a bit more than "just a blog".

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/ ... superjumbo

Flights to London are a goal but may be at the limit of what’s attainable after the carrier swapped its order for Airbus Group SE A350-800 jets to the shorter-range A330neo in 2014, Hawaiian Holdings Inc. CEO Mark Dunkerley said in an interview Wednesday.

“We certainly hope the answer is yes but we don’t have all the information we need,” he said. “It’s going to depend on what our final seating configuration is and therefore the weight of the Neo and its exact performance and statistics when it’s actually built.”
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b747400erf
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Re: Hawaiian Airlines mulls European destinations

Tue Sep 27, 2016 2:10 pm

readytotaxi wrote:
How long would a non-stop be?


Very long. HNL-JFK is a 9 hour flight

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/HAL ... /PHNL/KJFK

JFK-LHR is 6 hours

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/BAW ... /KJFK/EGLL

And all to chase tour package customers.
 
AsiaTravel
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Re: Hawaiian Airlines mulls European destinations

Tue Sep 27, 2016 2:11 pm

Polot wrote:
KarelXWB wrote:
Speaking to the Wall Street Journal, the president and CEO of the company, Mark Dunkerley, said that while his company is interested in potential flights from Honolulu to London, has not investigated whether the aircraft would be used have the radius and the ability adapted to operate the service.


So in other words, HA is not currently serious about flying to London anytime soon.


This guy sound like Alan Joyce with his Sydney to Europe direct flights that can't really be done.

The A338neo has a range of 7,500 mi with 257 seats according to Airbus and HNL-LHR is 7,237 mi so technically it is feasible.
 
b747400erf
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Re: Hawaiian Airlines mulls European destinations

Tue Sep 27, 2016 2:11 pm

KarelXWB wrote:
b747400erf wrote:
but I see it is just a blog.


Actually the source is Bloomberg, which is a bit more than "just a blog".

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/ ... superjumbo

Flights to London are a goal but may be at the limit of what’s attainable after the carrier swapped its order for Airbus Group SE A350-800 jets to the shorter-range A330neo in 2014, Hawaiian Holdings Inc. CEO Mark Dunkerley said in an interview Wednesday.

“We certainly hope the answer is yes but we don’t have all the information we need,” he said. “It’s going to depend on what our final seating configuration is and therefore the weight of the Neo and its exact performance and statistics when it’s actually built.”

Why did you not link to Bloomberg? The quote about not doing any research into even if the airplane can fly that makes this a non story. It was just a CEO dreaming of a new market.
 
b747400erf
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Re: Hawaiian Airlines mulls European destinations

Tue Sep 27, 2016 2:12 pm

AsiaTravel wrote:
Polot wrote:
KarelXWB wrote:
Speaking to the Wall Street Journal, the president and CEO of the company, Mark Dunkerley, said that while his company is interested in potential flights from Honolulu to London, has not investigated whether the aircraft would be used have the radius and the ability adapted to operate the service.


So in other words, HA is not currently serious about flying to London anytime soon.


This guy sound like Alan Joyce with his Sydney to Europe direct flights that can't really be done.

The A338neo has a range of 7,500 mi with 257 seats according to Airbus and HNL-LHR is 7,237 mi so technically it is feasible.


It would be wasteful and require a payload limit when they could serve Europe from JFK instead and have unlimited access to Europe. If Europe was so profitable they would have served it from JFK already.
 
AsiaTravel
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Re: Hawaiian Airlines mulls European destinations

Tue Sep 27, 2016 2:12 pm

b747400erf wrote:
readytotaxi wrote:
How long would a non-stop be?


Very long. HNL-JFK is a 9 hour flight

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/HAL ... /PHNL/KJFK

JFK-LHR is 6 hours

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/BAW ... /KJFK/EGLL

And all to chase tour package customers.



HNL-LHR is about the same length of MEL-DXB so I would say that it's a 13.5 hours flight.
 
AsiaTravel
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Re: Hawaiian Airlines mulls European destinations

Tue Sep 27, 2016 2:14 pm

b747400erf wrote:
AsiaTravel wrote:
Polot wrote:

So in other words, HA is not currently serious about flying to London anytime soon.


This guy sound like Alan Joyce with his Sydney to Europe direct flights that can't really be done.

The A338neo has a range of 7,500 mi with 257 seats according to Airbus and HNL-LHR is 7,237 mi so technically it is feasible.


It would be wasteful and require a payload limit when they could serve Europe from JFK instead and have unlimited access to Europe. If Europe was so profitable they would have served it from JFK already.


Oh absolutely, I was just mentioning the technical feasibility of the idea.
 
migair54
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Re: Hawaiian Airlines mulls European destinations

Tue Sep 27, 2016 2:35 pm

b747400erf wrote:
readytotaxi wrote:
How long would a non-stop be?


Very long. HNL-JFK is a 9 hour flight

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/HAL ... /PHNL/KJFK

JFK-LHR is 6 hours

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/BAW ... /KJFK/EGLL

And all to chase tour package customers.


That's not a ver adecuate to calculate, because a non stop between HNL and LHR would not pass even close to NYC.

It will be more or less like this, much more northern routing, specially on the westbound to avoid the strong North Atlantic winds. The flight will be around 13-14 hours, depending the day and the upper winds.
http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=hnl-lhr&MS ... 402&EU=kts


IMO if HA want to open such a route the A350 is a much more adequate plane, so when they change to the A338 HA kill the options for a non stop Europe flight, other question is how big could be the market to support the flight.

AsiaTravel wrote:
This guy sound like Alan Joyce with his Sydney to Europe direct flights that can't really be done.

One of the never ending stories, how many post and replies here about that....
 
FriscoHeavy
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Re: Hawaiian Airlines mulls European destinations

Tue Sep 27, 2016 2:37 pm

b747400erf wrote:
readytotaxi wrote:
How long would a non-stop be?


Very long. HNL-JFK is a 9 hour flight

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/HAL ... /PHNL/KJFK

JFK-LHR is 6 hours

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/BAW ... /KJFK/EGLL

And all to chase tour package customers.



Yes, the flight is pretty darn long, but you are being very misleading. You can't just add the two legs' flight times together. The routings are significantly different.

HNL-LHR Direct is 1,197 miles shorter than HNL-JFK-LHR.
Whatever
 
gregn21
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Re: Hawaiian Airlines mulls European destinations

Tue Sep 27, 2016 2:38 pm

How about ORD or ATL?? Jesus. . .
 
flyingcat
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Re: Hawaiian Airlines mulls European destinations

Tue Sep 27, 2016 2:41 pm

Even if it were technically possible, does anyone here seriously believe that HA would pay for LHR slots???

LGW sure, LHR upfront costs would doom the flight
 
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KarelXWB
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Re: Hawaiian Airlines mulls European destinations

Tue Sep 27, 2016 2:43 pm

flyingcat wrote:
Even if it were technically possible, does anyone here seriously believe that HA would pay for LHR slots???


They never mentioned LHR, just flights to "London".
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b747400erf
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Re: Hawaiian Airlines mulls European destinations

Tue Sep 27, 2016 2:47 pm

AsiaTravel wrote:
b747400erf wrote:
readytotaxi wrote:
How long would a non-stop be?


Very long. HNL-JFK is a 9 hour flight

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/HAL ... /PHNL/KJFK

JFK-LHR is 6 hours

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/BAW ... /KJFK/EGLL

And all to chase tour package customers.



HNL-LHR is about the same length of MEL-DXB so I would say that it's a 13.5 hours flight.


There are no ETOPS sectors MEL-DXB, there are 2 for HNL-LHR. It would be a weight restricted flight going west and HA would waste airplanes flying that route. They should be flying from JFK.
 
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readytotaxi
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Re: Hawaiian Airlines mulls European destinations

Tue Sep 27, 2016 2:50 pm

b747400erf wrote:
readytotaxi wrote:
How long would a non-stop be?


Very long. HNL-JFK is a 9 hour flight

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/HAL ... /PHNL/KJFK

JFK-LHR is 6 hours

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/BAW ... /KJFK/EGLL

And all to chase tour package customers.


My God,12+hrs in a Y seat, maddness. I struggle with 9hrs in J or F.
And as you say to chase tour package people. Lovely islands and nice people but a little expensive for the tour crowd perhaps.
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dfwjim1
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Re: Hawaiian Airlines mulls European destinations

Tue Sep 27, 2016 2:57 pm

Why does this topic keep coming up?
 
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RL777
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Re: Hawaiian Airlines mulls European destinations

Tue Sep 27, 2016 3:24 pm

I don't think this holds any more stock than when Alan Joyce was entertaining the possibility of a nonstop from SYD. Not sure what happened, but HA has gone from no news to possibly acquiring A380s and considering operating one of the worlds longest routes.
 
airzona11
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Re: Hawaiian Airlines mulls European destinations

Tue Sep 27, 2016 3:40 pm

What kind of feed does HA have in places like SFO/LAX/SEA? Or Asia? I know they are primarily focused on O/D but those Europeans are getting to Hawaii today and I assume travelers on BA/LH/LX/AF/ etc are connecting onto partner airlines DL/AS/AA/UA? Inter Hawaii routes they seem to code share with everyone.
Norwegian is starting to bring more and more travelers across the pond, pick up those passengers at LAX, OAK, etc.

HA could always jump into the ORD/NYC/BOS/DFW markets and 1 stop to Europe.

CEOs are good at selling their company, no press is bad press, keeps HA in discussion!
 
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Re: Hawaiian Airlines mulls European destinations

Tue Sep 27, 2016 3:46 pm

airzona11 wrote:
CEOs are good at selling their company, no press is bad press, keeps HA in discussion!


HA is still thoroughly useless to any passenger who isn't headed to the State of Hawaii or some misc collection of Pacific islands no matter how many A380s he wants to acquire for his nonstop London fantasy.
 
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Polot
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Re: Hawaiian Airlines mulls European destinations

Tue Sep 27, 2016 3:48 pm

airzona11 wrote:
HA could always jump into the ORD/NYC/BOS/DFW markets and 1 stop to Europe.

HA would get killed out of those markets with maybe the possible exception of BOS (due to B6 feed coupled with more limited competition), where instead HA would just get mildly crushed. This, minus NYC, would be true for both segments (the Europe one and the Hawaii-US city one).


HA is not some magical ULCC able to compete with the other US majors out of their hubs to international destinations with no feed. Their general operational/financial performance relative to the US3 is due to their operation's comparative isolation, not anything specific about HA's structure.
 
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Re: Hawaiian Airlines mulls European destinations

Tue Sep 27, 2016 4:56 pm

airzona11 wrote:
CEOs are good at selling their company, no press is bad press, keeps HA in discussion!


Of course there's such a thing as bad press. This shows lack of discipline in strategic route planning and an unwillingness to stay focused on what they are doing right today (whatever he may reasonably claim that to be).
 
b747400erf
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Re: Hawaiian Airlines mulls European destinations

Tue Sep 27, 2016 5:07 pm

Polot wrote:
airzona11 wrote:
HA could always jump into the ORD/NYC/BOS/DFW markets and 1 stop to Europe.

HA would get killed out of those markets with maybe the possible exception of BOS (due to B6 feed coupled with more limited competition), where instead HA would just get mildly crushed. This, minus NYC, would be true for both segments (the Europe one and the Hawaii-US city one).


HA is not some magical ULCC able to compete with the other US majors out of their hubs to international destinations with no feed. Their general operational/financial performance relative to the US3 is due to their operation's comparative isolation, not anything specific about HA's structure.

What if they partnered with an airline like Easyjet, and had a single flight from LGW to JFK then HNL?
 
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Re: Hawaiian Airlines mulls European destinations

Tue Sep 27, 2016 5:16 pm

They should partner with AS and route HNL-ANC-LON, it's right on the Great Circle route. ANC-LON is shorter than London to DEN/SEA/LAX/SFO/YVR, and about the same as MIA, so ~9 hours. It would be nearly 1000 miles shorter than the most popular route via LAX, saving a few hours.
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Re: Hawaiian Airlines mulls European destinations

Tue Sep 27, 2016 5:48 pm

Even with the terror threat for certain vacation spots in North Africa isn't it still easier/cheaper for Europeans to go to the Caribbean versus Hawaii? What's the market for London-Hawaii anyway?

Also, I just find it hard to believe that HA has maxed out viable destinations in North America.
 
airzona11
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Re: Hawaiian Airlines mulls European destinations

Tue Sep 27, 2016 6:30 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
airzona11 wrote:
CEOs are good at selling their company, no press is bad press, keeps HA in discussion!


Of course there's such a thing as bad press. This shows lack of discipline in strategic route planning and an unwillingness to stay focused on what they are doing right today (whatever he may reasonably claim that to be).


Did you read what he said? He didn't say we are going to dedicate aircraft to fly a prestige route regardless if it makes money. I believe he is staying focused on what they are doing today that based on what he said, 'basically we are exploring all our options, new planes, new capabilities.' Look at all the new routes HA has added across the Pacific Rim over the past few years. Growth is a good thing.

Agree with what others are saying, at the end of the day, they operate 1 Hub that is located on the most remote meaningfully inhabited islands in the world. Not a lot of options.
 
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787fan8
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Re: Hawaiian Airlines mulls European destinations

Tue Sep 27, 2016 6:36 pm

Is there any possibility that HA could serve the flight from LGW? After all, Hawaii is a more leisure centered market than it is a business market.
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lavalampluva
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Re: Hawaiian Airlines mulls European destinations

Tue Sep 27, 2016 6:51 pm

izbtmnhd wrote:
Even with the terror threat for certain vacation spots in North Africa isn't it still easier/cheaper for Europeans to go to the Caribbean versus Hawaii? What's the market for London-Hawaii anyway?

Also, I just find it hard to believe that HA has maxed out viable destinations in North America.


HA has plenty of breathing room on the Mainland. With the exception of JFK they haven't gone past the West Coast.
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azjubilee
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Re: Hawaiian Airlines mulls European destinations

Tue Sep 27, 2016 7:03 pm

If anyone knows anything about HA, which clearly many on this thread are not in that category, they'd know that this isn't new news. HA had their sights on Europe when the 350's were originally ordered, dating at least to 2008. This isn't something Dunkerley just conjured up overnight for free press as being suggested. And to suggest HA is foolish for not knowing the capabilities of the 330neo is also ludicrous. I do think however, that these recent comments, perhaps taken out of context are part of a bigger plan. HA has signaled that the 330neo may or may not do what it wants. This is likely a shot across the bow to both Airbus and Boeing. Dunkerley is on the record saying that talks with both manufacturers will likely start again sooner than later. Also, there is also no link to the Europe comments and the 380s. They may have been made at the same time, but Dunkerley never said he wanted to use the 380 to Europe. Typically, people around here haven't read everything before foolishly commenting. But... what else is new.

Here are some basics...

HA is a destination carrier. It isn't now and won't be attempting to become the EK of the Pacific. If people make Hawaii a stopover, which HA does promote (for free) that's great. If people book connections through HNL, that's great too. But they're certainly not billing HNL as a connecting point for the Pacific Rim. Jeez... the place is already bursting at the seams with inadequate facilities for the operation that is taking place today!

It would be highly unlikely and virtual suicide if HA jumped into the transatlantic market from JFK or any of the other 10 US gateways HA serves. HA has to know this. If Europe is flown, it will be flown nonstop.

HA's switch from the 350-800 to the 330neo in 2014 was due to the fact that the 350 that was ordered was likely not going to be built and at the time, the 350-900 was deemed too big. This switch was also made fully knowing that the full capabilities of the 330neo were unknown.
 
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Re: Hawaiian Airlines mulls European destinations

Tue Sep 27, 2016 7:38 pm

azjubilee wrote:
HA has signaled that the 330neo may or may not do what it wants. This is likely a shot across the bow to both Airbus and Boeing. Dunkerley is on the record saying that talks with both manufacturers will likely start again sooner than later.

Can you elaborate on the above, please? When converting its A358 order to A330neos, did HA carve out the right to walk away from the deal without significant penalties? If HA is ultimately unhappy with the A330neo, what are the airline's options? -ir
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NichCage
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Re: Hawaiian Airlines mulls European destinations

Tue Sep 27, 2016 7:47 pm

I don't know if it is just me, but I think there is no kind of market for a direct Honolulu-London flight. Sure, there are people from London who will go to Hawaii, but the number of passengers is too small to justify a non-stop flight between the two cities. The flight would also be very long, and I think it would be a waste of an aircraft.
 
izbtmnhd
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Re: Hawaiian Airlines mulls European destinations

Tue Sep 27, 2016 8:37 pm

azjubilee wrote:
If anyone knows anything about HA, which clearly many on this thread are not in that category, they'd know that this isn't new news. HA had their sights on Europe when the 350's were originally ordered, dating at least to 2008. This isn't something Dunkerley just conjured up overnight for free press as being suggested. And to suggest HA is foolish for not knowing the capabilities of the 330neo is also ludicrous. I do think however, that these recent comments, perhaps taken out of context are part of a bigger plan. HA has signaled that the 330neo may or may not do what it wants. This is likely a shot across the bow to both Airbus and Boeing. Dunkerley is on the record saying that talks with both manufacturers will likely start again sooner than later. Also, there is also no link to the Europe comments and the 380s. They may have been made at the same time, but Dunkerley never said he wanted to use the 380 to Europe. Typically, people around here haven't read everything before foolishly commenting. But... what else is new.

Here are some basics...

HA is a destination carrier. It isn't now and won't be attempting to become the EK of the Pacific. If people make Hawaii a stopover, which HA does promote (for free) that's great. If people book connections through HNL, that's great too. But they're certainly not billing HNL as a connecting point for the Pacific Rim. Jeez... the place is already bursting at the seams with inadequate facilities for the operation that is taking place today!

It would be highly unlikely and virtual suicide if HA jumped into the transatlantic market from JFK or any of the other 10 US gateways HA serves. HA has to know this. If Europe is flown, it will be flown nonstop.

HA's switch from the 350-800 to the 330neo in 2014 was due to the fact that the 350 that was ordered was likely not going to be built and at the time, the 350-900 was deemed too big. This switch was also made fully knowing that the full capabilities of the 330neo were unknown.


What's the market for Europe-Hawaii? I'm sure some are interested but I have to believe the Azores/Canaries/North Africa/Caribbean/SE Asia all offer vacation experiences at a more reasonable cost. All those other destinations also don't require flying literally half way around the globe and the extreme jet lag that comes with it.

And it's not like HA is all over North/Central America too. It's just odd to me.
 
azjubilee
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Re: Hawaiian Airlines mulls European destinations

Tue Sep 27, 2016 8:54 pm

IslandRob wrote:
azjubilee wrote:
HA has signaled that the 330neo may or may not do what it wants. This is likely a shot across the bow to both Airbus and Boeing. Dunkerley is on the record saying that talks with both manufacturers will likely start again sooner than later.

Can you elaborate on the above, please? When converting its A358 order to A330neos, did HA carve out the right to walk away from the deal without significant penalties? If HA is ultimately unhappy with the A330neo, what are the airline's options? -ir


I wasn't party to the discussions, so I don't know the gory details of their agreement with Airbus. In 2014, the 330neo was launched and shortly thereafter HA was forced to change their order. At the time, and still is, the 330neo was a paper airplane. The specs were known on paper including the fact that the NEO may have a 400nm advantage on the A330-200 that is currently flown. Of course, nobody knows how the plane will perform in real life, as it hasn't even been built yet. That's why Dunkerley eludes to the fact they don't really know if the plane can make it to Europe and if it really plays a role for the future of the airline. These assertions support my suggestion that this recent discussion regarding the 380, Europe and the 330neo is apart of a much broader discussion taking place.
 
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Re: Hawaiian Airlines mulls European destinations

Tue Sep 27, 2016 9:20 pm

gabrielchew wrote:
They should partner with AS and route HNL-ANC-LON, it's right on the Great Circle route. ANC-LON is shorter than London to DEN/SEA/LAX/SFO/YVR, and about the same as MIA, so ~9 hours. It would be nearly 1000 miles shorter than the most popular route via LAX, saving a few hours.


Plus they could fill the cargo holds with freight.
 
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mariner
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Re: Hawaiian Airlines mulls European destinations

Tue Sep 27, 2016 9:39 pm

NichCage wrote:
I don't know if it is just me, but I think there is no kind of market for a direct Honolulu-London flight. Sure, there are people from London who will go to Hawaii, but the number of passengers is too small to justify a non-stop flight between the two cities. The flight would also be very long, and I think it would be a waste of an aircraft.


Since there have never been regularly scheduled non-stops HNL-LHR-HNL no one knows the particulars of the market, but the airline probably has some idea and non-stops do tend to swell the numbers.

I assume that some of that market will be people having a stop-over in Hawaii on their way to points west of HNL, Australia and NZ, for example. It may be teensy tad quicker for Australians to fly to the UK through DXB or SIN, but the Hawaiian islands are a very attractive stop-over. BOAC's trans-Pacific service through HNL worked well back in the olden days. Image

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jfk777
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Re: Hawaiian Airlines mulls European destinations

Tue Sep 27, 2016 10:09 pm

IF this was viable Virgin or British Airways would be flying it by now, they both have 787-9 planes.
 
b6sea
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Re: Hawaiian Airlines mulls European destinations

Tue Sep 27, 2016 10:24 pm

I'm not saying I think this is going to happen, because it seems like there are probably better markets for HA to chase before they jump into serving LHR (or other London airports) directly from HNL, but the Hawaii Tourism Authority does keep numbers on European visitors to the state and all things being equal, they appear to suggest that there's the potential for such a flight to work. However, I am also aware that many European visitors enjoy spending several days on the west coast before traveling on to Hawaii, etc etc. There are a lot of mitigating factors that make these numbers somewhat less meaningful, but on the surface, it kind of makes some sense. SOME.

http://www.hawaiitourismauthority.org/d ... 20data.pdf

^^interesting that they mention the 787 and A380 specifically. Not sure why they mention the A380. But they do.

Here's all the data for 2015 as well, it's a big file, but there's a lot of interesting stuff in there about Europe and all the other markets.
http://www.hawaiitourismauthority.org/default/assets/File/reports/visitor-statistics/2015%20ANNUAL%20VISITOR%20RESEARCH%20REPORT%20(FINAL).pdf

Interesting statistic (unsurprising, but interesting): 80.1% of all European visitors to Hawaii arrive on domestic flights.
 
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TWA772LR
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Re: Hawaiian Airlines mulls European destinations

Wed Sep 28, 2016 12:26 am

Maybe they could do a one stop AKL-LHR stopping in HNL? It's shorter than AKL-LAX/SFO-LHR.
http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=lhr-akl,+l ... hr-hnl-akl
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LAX772LR
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Re: Hawaiian Airlines mulls European destinations

Wed Sep 28, 2016 5:47 am

b747400erf wrote:
They should be flying from JFK.

Well, if we're on the topic of "should"... by most logical assessments, they shouldn't be flying to Europe at all.

HNL-JFK-Europe is going to tie up multiple aircraft for the sole purpose of serving a single destination. Why bother?
I'm surprised that they've even been able to justify doing so for JFK, and I'd be surprised if that segment was profitable as a standalone.

They're a small airline: they could just hand off pax in LAX/SFO/JFK, where they can have access to 90%+ of the world's major airlines, without using so many resources.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
a380787
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Re: Hawaiian Airlines mulls European destinations

Wed Sep 28, 2016 6:05 am

Constantly repeating themes -

1. When is 757 back
2. When is Europe-Hawaii nonstop a reality
3. Why is airline XX not serving XXX ?
4. When will UA shrink LAX and IAD to utter irrelevance ?
5. will the DAL gates battle ever end ?
6. Whenever there's labor vs management dispute, it's always the fault of management.
 
kruiseri
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Re: Hawaiian Airlines mulls European destinations

Wed Sep 28, 2016 6:31 am

gabrielchew wrote:
They should partner with AS and route HNL-ANC-LON, it's right on the Great Circle route. ANC-LON is shorter than London to DEN/SEA/LAX/SFO/YVR, and about the same as MIA, so ~9 hours. It would be nearly 1000 miles shorter than the most popular route via LAX, saving a few hours.


Wouldn't a HNL-SEA-LON make the most sense ? Only 200 NM longer than via ANC, and I would assume SEA-LON is a much bigger (albeit more competetive) market than ANC-LON.
 
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RWA380
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Re: Hawaiian Airlines mulls European destinations

Wed Sep 28, 2016 6:59 am

kruiseri wrote:
gabrielchew wrote:
They should partner with AS and route HNL-ANC-LON, it's right on the Great Circle route. ANC-LON is shorter than London to DEN/SEA/LAX/SFO/YVR, and about the same as MIA, so ~9 hours. It would be nearly 1000 miles shorter than the most popular route via LAX, saving a few hours.


HA partner with AS, HA! AS is the thorn in A's side, taking all that outer island to mainland traffic that HA has missed out on because of their aircraft type choices. But that is shortly not going to be the case & HA will be battling AS on the mainland to outer island routes, like PDX-OGG which AS owns right now. They are the competition.

Western Airlines tried this same route with the DC-10 & it was gone in less than a year. The loads were abysmal ANC-LGW-ANC. You'll notice that HA doesn't even fly to ANC any longer, even though AS has two dailies to HNL & OGG in the season. There is no market on either sector for HA,

Wouldn't a HNL-SEA-LON make the most sense ? Only 200 NM longer than via ANC, and I would assume SEA-LON is a much bigger (albeit more competetive) market than ANC-LON.


As has been mentioned, HA will only go non-stop & they will wait until they can go non-stop. This is a long story that is nearly a decade old already.
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ExDubai
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Re: Hawaiian Airlines mulls European destinations

Wed Sep 28, 2016 8:05 am

izbtmnhd wrote:
Even with the terror threat for certain vacation spots in North Africa isn't it still easier/cheaper for Europeans to go to the Caribbean versus Hawaii? What's the market for London-Hawaii anyway?

Also, I just find it hard to believe that HA has maxed out viable destinations in North America.


According to the Hawaii Tourism Authority in 2014 143.132 arrived from Europe.
http://www.hawaiitourismauthority.org/d ... e%20(final).pdf

Edit: Don't know why the link is not working with copy/past....
Full statistics are available here... http://dbedt.hawaii.gov/visitor/visitor-research/
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777PHX
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Re: Hawaiian Airlines mulls European destinations

Wed Sep 28, 2016 11:34 am

gabrielchew wrote:
They should partner with AS and route HNL-ANC-LON, it's right on the Great Circle route. ANC-LON is shorter than London to DEN/SEA/LAX/SFO/YVR, and about the same as MIA, so ~9 hours. It would be nearly 1000 miles shorter than the most popular route via LAX, saving a few hours.


Because all of those hundreds of people everyday that want to go from ANC to London and vice versa, right?
 
airbazar
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Re: Hawaiian Airlines mulls European destinations

Wed Sep 28, 2016 11:54 am

flyingcat wrote:
Even if it were technically possible, does anyone here seriously believe that HA would pay for LHR slots???
LGW sure, LHR upfront costs would doom the flight

It's a leisure destination, so they would not need to find a pair of expensive prime-time slots. Lots of slots to be had at odd hours of the day.
b747400erf wrote:
There are no ETOPS sectors MEL-DXB, there are 2 for HNL-LHR. It would be a weight restricted flight going west and HA would waste airplanes flying that route. They should be flying from JFK.

There is 1 ETOPS sector on MEL-DXB but not relevant while flying with a quad. However, MEL-DXB faces strong headwinds while LON-HNL is a polar route.
azjubilee wrote:
If anyone knows anything about HA, which clearly many on this thread are not in that category, they'd know that this isn't new news. HA had their sights on Europe when the 350's were originally ordered, dating at least to 2008. This isn't something Dunkerley just conjured up overnight for free press as being suggested. And to suggest HA is foolish for not knowing the capabilities of the 330neo is also ludicrous. I do think however, that these recent comments, perhaps taken out of context are part of a bigger plan. HA has signaled that the 330neo may or may not do what it wants. This is likely a shot across the bow to both Airbus and Boeing.

I agree with everything in this paragraph except the last sentence. HA as a small niche carrier has no power to throw shots against anyone's bow.
azjubilee wrote:
HA is a destination carrier. It isn't now and won't be attempting to become the EK of the Pacific. If people make Hawaii a stopover, which HA does promote (for free) that's great. If people book connections through HNL, that's great too. But they're certainly not billing HNL as a connecting point for the Pacific Rim. Jeez... the place is already bursting at the seams with inadequate facilities for the operation that is taking place today!

These are nearly contradictory statements. Yes, "EK of the Pacific" is too strong of a description but if HA promotes the stopover and gives it for free, then by definition that is a part of their operating model and they want people to connect in HNL. I agree that the primary purpose of this incentive is to get people to visit Hawaii but it also suggests that they know that O&D alone isn't enough.
jfk777 wrote:
IF this was viable Virgin or British Airways would be flying it by now, they both have 787-9 planes.

Both of those already have a strong partner in AA and DL. Having said that I would not be surprised to see BA jump on it from LGW if the Edelweiss "experience" works.
 
izbtmnhd
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Re: Hawaiian Airlines mulls European destinations

Wed Sep 28, 2016 1:54 pm

ExDubai wrote:
izbtmnhd wrote:
Even with the terror threat for certain vacation spots in North Africa isn't it still easier/cheaper for Europeans to go to the Caribbean versus Hawaii? What's the market for London-Hawaii anyway?

Also, I just find it hard to believe that HA has maxed out viable destinations in North America.


According to the Hawaii Tourism Authority in 2014 143.132 arrived from Europe.
http://www.hawaiitourismauthority.org/d ... e%20(final).pdf

Edit: Don't know why the link is not working with copy/past....
Full statistics are available here... http://dbedt.hawaii.gov/visitor/visitor-research/


Are you saying that these numbers justify a non-stop from a European destination to HNL?
 
azjubilee
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Re: Hawaiian Airlines mulls European destinations

Wed Sep 28, 2016 5:09 pm

airbazar wrote:
I agree with everything in this paragraph except the last sentence. HA as a small niche carrier has no power to throw shots against anyone's bow.

These are nearly contradictory statements. Yes, "EK of the Pacific" is too strong of a description but if HA promotes the stopover and gives it for free, then by definition that is a part of their operating model and they want people to connect in HNL. I agree that the primary purpose of this incentive is to get people to visit Hawaii but it also suggests that they know that O&D alone isn't enough. .


HA may be small, but they still will want negotiate the best deal they can from suppliers. I'm not suggesting they carry the weight of UA or AA when cutting deals for aircraft, what I'm saying is that these could very well be public comments to signal to both Airbus and Boeing they're interested in discussing the future.

Selling the destination as a stopover as apart of a bigger vacation, which is what HA does, is not the same as creating a major connection hub for people who have no intent to visit Hawaii. That is what a large amount of EK passengers are about, not to mention the rest of the network carriers in the USA and abroad. HA is not one of those. If people buy tickets as such, that's great, but it isn't the primary focus of the business. O&D has been the root of HAL's success for basically all of it's nearly 87 years of existence, seems like they're doing a pretty good job at continuing that business model.
 
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BWIAirport
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Re: Hawaiian Airlines mulls European destinations

Wed Sep 28, 2016 5:20 pm

b747400erf wrote:
readytotaxi wrote:
How long would a non-stop be?


Very long. HNL-JFK is a 9 hour flight

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/HAL ... /PHNL/KJFK

JFK-LHR is 6 hours

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/BAW ... /KJFK/EGLL

And all to chase tour package customers.

Right but the route would not go anywhere near JFK, it would cut across British Colombia, north of the Hudson Bay, then northern Greenland
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