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VCEflyboy
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Re: Hawaiian Airlines mulls European destinations

Wed Sep 28, 2016 6:16 pm

Ok one thing to keep in mind is that now it is a great time for HI to become a mainstream destination for Europeans. The Middle East and magreb are not safe, major European capitals like Paris and Brussels are viewed as not safe. The islands that you mentioned like the Azores and canaries will likely become offshore hotspots to process asylum seekers just like Australia does at Christmas Island. That's a matter of time but it could happen in the near future. So suddenly the portfolio of destinations is dramatically reduced. South America also is not appealing and if Trump gets elected. So perhaps the time may be right.
I just don't understand Hawaiian 's obsession to want to launch non-stop flights. They can launch flights with tech stops at YVR with a good chance of being profitable in my opinion. Non-stop maybe seasonally.
 
Viscount724
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Re: Hawaiian Airlines mulls European destinations

Wed Sep 28, 2016 7:14 pm

mariner wrote:
NichCage wrote:
I don't know if it is just me, but I think there is no kind of market for a direct Honolulu-London flight. Sure, there are people from London who will go to Hawaii, but the number of passengers is too small to justify a non-stop flight between the two cities. The flight would also be very long, and I think it would be a waste of an aircraft.


Since there have never been regularly scheduled non-stops HNL-LHR-HNL no one knows the particulars of the market, but the airline probably has some idea and non-stops do tend to swell the numbers.

I assume that some of that market will be people having a stop-over in Hawaii on their way to points west of HNL, Australia and NZ, for example. It may be teensy tad quicker for Australians to fly to the UK through DXB or SIN, but the Hawaiian islands are a very attractive stop-over. BOAC's trans-Pacific service through HNL worked well back in the olden days. Image

mariner


I question how well (if you mean profitable?) BOAC's (and QF's and JAL's) transpacific services that continued to Europe worked. They all had 2 rather long US domestic sectors (HNL-SFO-JFK) where they couldn't sell local traffic. Most of those flights probably had dozens of empty seats. The tag-on 5th freedom sectors to LHR (also ORY on some JAL flights) all ended about the time the 747s replaced the narrowbodies. And while New Zealand is roughly the same distance via both North America and Asia, Australia is significantly further via North America. LHR-LAX-SYD is roughly 2,000 miles further than via the major Asian and Gulf hubs.
 
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mariner
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Re: Hawaiian Airlines mulls European destinations

Wed Sep 28, 2016 7:53 pm

Viscount724 wrote:
I question how well (if you mean profitable?) BOAC's (and QF's and JAL's) transpacific services that continued to Europe worked. They all had 2 rather long US domestic sectors (HNL-SFO-JFK) where they couldn't sell local traffic. Most of those flights probably had dozens of empty seats.


I flew it - NZ-UK-NZ -and there wasn't an empty seat on the plane, on any sector, nor was the flight available to me on a couple of other days because there were no seats available.

I didn't necessarily mean "profitable" because I don't understand the economics of the time and even in Y class we were treated admirably - dinner at a hotel in NAN (before connecting to the flight from SYD) and again during the long layover at SFO - as well as the meals onboard.

Whether those flights were actually profitable is unknown to me but there was a market. I assume that at HNL we picked up some international transferring pax to SFO, because that sector had a large number of Americans on board who had not been on NAN-HNL and we must have taken up some pax at SFO (to LHR?) because only about a dozen of us continuing thrui' pax were at the SFO motel dinner, but the actual flight SFO-JFK was full as well. At JFK my 707 flight was overbooked to LHR and I was transferred to the VC-10 flight and upgraded to first class - yay!

Coming back, we didn't get the extras (the long layovers and the hotel dinners) presumably because the timings were better but again, each sector was full.

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gabrielchew
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Re: Hawaiian Airlines mulls European destinations

Wed Sep 28, 2016 9:41 pm

777PHX wrote:
gabrielchew wrote:
They should partner with AS and route HNL-ANC-LON, it's right on the Great Circle route. ANC-LON is shorter than London to DEN/SEA/LAX/SFO/YVR, and about the same as MIA, so ~9 hours. It would be nearly 1000 miles shorter than the most popular route via LAX, saving a few hours.


Because all of those hundreds of people everyday that want to go from ANC to London and vice versa, right?


Yes, just like all those hundreds of people flying KEF-ANC.....I guess FI operates those flights empty? Same as the Condor flight to FRA....never a single seat sold :roll:
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rbavfan
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Re: Hawaiian Airlines mulls European destinations

Wed Sep 28, 2016 10:11 pm

AsiaTravel wrote:
Polot wrote:
KarelXWB wrote:
Speaking to the Wall Street Journal, the president and CEO of the company, Mark Dunkerley, said that while his company is interested in potential flights from Honolulu to London, has not investigated whether the aircraft would be used have the radius and the ability adapted to operate the service.


So in other words, HA is not currently serious about flying to London anytime soon.


This guy sound like Alan Joyce with his Sydney to Europe direct flights that can't really be done.

The A338neo has a range of 7,500 mi with 257 seats according to Airbus and HNL-LHR is 7,237 mi so technically it is feasible.

7500nm not miles. Your mixing HNL-LHR miles with the a330-800 neo's nauticle mile range. Can easily be done with the correct figures.
 
rbavfan
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Re: Hawaiian Airlines mulls European destinations

Wed Sep 28, 2016 10:20 pm

7500nm range A330-800 & 6285nm range HNL-LHR. 1215nm to spare for ETOPS. They could do it.
 
rbavfan
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Re: Hawaiian Airlines mulls European destinations

Wed Sep 28, 2016 10:23 pm

They could also do HNL-ANC-LHR and carry lots of cargo between each city.
 
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KarelXWB
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Re: Hawaiian Airlines mulls European destinations

Thu Sep 29, 2016 7:37 am

AsiaTravel wrote:
I would say that it's a 13.5 hours flight.


That's a stretch for the A330-200. Even when the NEO adds 400nm / 1 hour additional flying, it will have to leave payload behind.
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ojjunior
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Re: Hawaiian Airlines mulls European destinations

Thu Sep 29, 2016 2:40 pm

b747400erf wrote:
readytotaxi wrote:
How long would a non-stop be?


Very long. HNL-JFK is a 9 hour flight

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/HAL ... /PHNL/KJFK

JFK-LHR is 6 hours

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/BAW ... /KJFK/EGLL

And all to chase tour package customers.


HNL-LHR?
Just another day for any 77L or 77W even fully loaded...
For comparison:
Image

GRU-DXB 7,592 mi
HNL-LHR 7,237 mi

Now, demand for HNL-LHR-HNL services is another question...
 
cledaybuck
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Re: Hawaiian Airlines mulls European destinations

Thu Sep 29, 2016 3:14 pm

VCEflyboy wrote:
Ok one thing to keep in mind is that now it is a great time for HI to become a mainstream destination for Europeans. The Middle East and magreb are not safe, major European capitals like Paris and Brussels are viewed as not safe. The islands that you mentioned like the Azores and canaries will likely become offshore hotspots to process asylum seekers just like Australia does at Christmas Island. That's a matter of time but it could happen in the near future. So suddenly the portfolio of destinations is dramatically reduced. South America also is not appealing and if Trump gets elected. So perhaps the time may be right.
I just don't understand Hawaiian 's obsession to want to launch non-stop flights. They can launch flights with tech stops at YVR with a good chance of being profitable in my opinion. Non-stop maybe seasonally.

Why would Trump getting elected make Hawaii more desirable?
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seahawk
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Re: Hawaiian Airlines mulls European destinations

Thu Sep 29, 2016 3:27 pm

Hawaii is too expensive to work as a European destination. Most people combine a week or two at the West Coast with a week or 2 in Hawaii. Those people looking for a 2 weeks beach holiday are usually unable to pay a trip to Hawaii, and the flight would not be the big obstacle but the costs of hotels and general expenses.
 
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KarelXWB
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Re: Hawaiian Airlines mulls European destinations

Sat Oct 08, 2016 4:15 pm

dfwjim1 wrote:
Why does this topic keep coming up?


Because Hawaiian's CEO keeps talking about the subject. So maybe one day it will happen?
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LAX772LR
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Re: Hawaiian Airlines mulls European destinations

Sat Oct 08, 2016 5:25 pm

a380787 wrote:
Constantly repeating themes -

1. When is 757 back
2. When is Europe-Hawaii nonstop a reality
3. Why is airline XX not serving XXX ?
4. When will UA shrink LAX and IAD to utter irrelevance ?
5. will the DAL gates battle ever end ?
6. Whenever there's labor vs management dispute, it's always the fault of management.

You missed a huge one:

7. That "service," or age of flight attendants, or type of aircraft; are more significant determinants of route competitiveness than price, schedule, frequency, and corporate commitments.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
SCQ83
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Re: Hawaiian Airlines mulls European destinations

Sat Oct 08, 2016 5:52 pm

I don't understand why most people here see LON-HNL as very long.

London-Honolulu is equivalent to London-Buenos Aires or London-Manila. And many Europeans take holidays in Argentina or Philippines (flying economy). Not to mention the loads of people connecting every day in any ME3 to fly further to Asia or Australia for holidays.

I feel that a non-stop from London could have a big chance to stimulate the market. I think what is annoying is flying to the West Coast (already a long flight) and then another "semi-long" flight to Hawaii. And that connecting in a place like LAX. A direct flight will shorten time and make things more comfortable.
 
777PHX
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Re: Hawaiian Airlines mulls European destinations

Sat Oct 08, 2016 6:52 pm

gabrielchew wrote:
777PHX wrote:
gabrielchew wrote:
They should partner with AS and route HNL-ANC-LON, it's right on the Great Circle route. ANC-LON is shorter than London to DEN/SEA/LAX/SFO/YVR, and about the same as MIA, so ~9 hours. It would be nearly 1000 miles shorter than the most popular route via LAX, saving a few hours.


Because all of those hundreds of people everyday that want to go from ANC to London and vice versa, right?


Yes, just like all those hundreds of people flying KEF-ANC.....I guess FI operates those flights empty? Same as the Condor flight to FRA....never a single seat sold :roll:


Because one seasonal flight full of low value tourism traffic is such a strong predictor of success, right?

:roll: Right back at you.
 
TC957
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Re: Hawaiian Airlines mulls European destinations

Sat Oct 08, 2016 9:24 pm

With the poor old £ exchange rate tanking recently I think the UK - Hawaii market won't attract such numbers as it would if the £ was stronger. If HA want to serve London they might do better marketing the route as a through service to AKL/SYD and connect flights as such. I'm sure regular travelers on the kangaroo route would welcome a new stop-over option from the usual Far East or Middle East points.
 
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Channex757
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Re: Hawaiian Airlines mulls European destinations

Sat Oct 08, 2016 9:32 pm

rbavfan wrote:
They could also do HNL-ANC-LHR and carry lots of cargo between each city.

If I was route planning this operation that's something I would be putting out substantial feelers on. Hawaii is a somewhat premium destination after all and a lot of British quality branded stuff could end up being shipped on the flight.

High end restauraunts and shops could be a market for faster air freight services. There's even a potential market coming back the other way for Hawaiian produce.

With the growth in tourism to longhaul destinations (even with a depressed pound because there is still money in the economy) Hawaii could well be the next Cancun or Puerto Vallarta.
 
LY777
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Re: Hawaiian Airlines mulls European destinations

Sat Oct 08, 2016 10:10 pm

SCQ83 wrote:
I don't understand why most people here see LON-HNL as very long.



The main problem for me is not the length of the flight: it is jet lag!!! 11 hours is A LOT!!
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Viscount724
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Re: Hawaiian Airlines mulls European destinations

Sat Oct 08, 2016 10:33 pm

SCQ83 wrote:
I don't understand why most people here see LON-HNL as very long.

London-Honolulu is equivalent to London-Buenos Aires or London-Manila. And many Europeans take holidays in Argentina or Philippines (flying economy). Not to mention the loads of people connecting every day in any ME3 to fly further to Asia or Australia for holidays.



There's a big difference between an almost exclusively leisure destination like Hawaii and the other markets you mention which are significant VFR markets and most also have significant year-round business traffic in both directions. Europe-Hawaii would be almost totally Europe-originating traffic and very seasonal.

And as already mentioned, jet lag would be a big issue with the time difference of 11 hours from the UK and 12 hours from continental Europe (one hour less in winter). Apart from killing a full day flying in each direction it would take 2 or 3 days for most people to recover from jet lag in both directions. The time difference between Europe and Hawaii is greater than to Australia or anywhere in Asia, and far more than to South America and other long-haul (but much shorter than Hawaii) predominantly leisure destinations like Mauritius, Capetown or the Caribbean.
 
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Rajahdhani
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Re: Hawaiian Airlines mulls European destinations

Sat Oct 08, 2016 10:46 pm

Can we discuss the feasibility of the A330-800NEO ever actually being produced?

At present, there are a total of 10 orders for the airframe - as opposed to 176 for the A330-900NEO.

What else will the A338's frame be used for (basis for a possible, future freighter, troop transport, VIP transport, and/or tanker)?

In almost every respect, save for range - would not the A339 be a better fit for any future market proliferation?

EADS has already signaled that they will employ improvements to the A339 to encroach (and beautifully replace) the capabilities of the A350-800.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... ht-425868/
The 245t take-off weight would match the figure originally given for the A350-800 when the current A350 family was unveiled in 2006.
Airbus eventually sidelined the A350-800 in favour of a re-engined A330, powered by Rolls-Royce Trent 7000 engines.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... le-403757/
Airbus chief executive Fabrice Bregier confirmed at the press conference that development of the A350-800 has been "cancelled."
The death warrant for the smallest variant of the widebody, which had been losing orders as customers switched to the -900 and -1000, was as good as signed when the A330neo was launched.


The A350-800, though cancelled still has 16 orders 'on the books' - 6 more than the A338.

For HA, this all must be comically good;
02/2008 - Place an order for 6 A350-800.
07/2014 - Convert said order for 6 A358s to 6 A330-800NEO.
09/2014 - A358 cancelled.
Present Day;
-A338 looks DOA.
-A339 essentially becomes the A358 that they wanted to begin with.

EADS, and HA seem primed for a discussion on the matter.

At the presently advertized 242t MTOW, the A339's typical range will present at 6550nm:
http://www.airbus.com/fileadmin/media_g ... ch2016.pdf

This, is prior to the above mentioned increases in MTOW.

Thus:
http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=HNL-LHR&R= ... =wls&DU=mi

Is that do-able for HA? An increase in MTOW, and a less dense cabin could provide better range - but that would then have to capture a more premium market. Is that possible, here?
 
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TWA772LR
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Re: Hawaiian Airlines mulls European destinations

Sun Oct 09, 2016 5:15 am

Rajahdhani wrote:

EADS has already signaled that they will employ improvements to the A339 to encroach (and beautifully replace) the capabilities of the A350-800.


Is that do-able for HA? An increase in MTOW, and a less dense cabin could provide better range - but that would then have to capture a more premium market. Is that possible, here?

HA doesn't want the larger aircraft. If they did, they would have stuck with the A350-900 when Airbus cancelled the -800. If I was Dunkerley, and they cancelled ANOTHER airplane on me that is supposed to be the backbone of my longhaul fleet, I'd start shopping at Boeing for some 787-8s.
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FBWFTW
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Re: Hawaiian Airlines mulls European destinations

Mon Oct 24, 2016 3:18 pm

The Q3 earnings call just happened what has been said here about the unknown as yet capabilities of the A330-800NEO (whether it gets built or not) was actually mentioned in the call along with a few other juicy tidbits.

I'll leave the link for the recent HA Q3 earnings call here and quote the relevant stuff for this thread.

Q from Julie Yates to Mark Dunkerley:
"Mark, I think there were some comments in the media recently that you guys would potentially be interested in Europe services at some point. Would the A330neos range satisfy that mission or would you need to look at more at an A350 or 787 to make that market work?"

Answer from Dunkerley:
"The short answer is we don't know yet. The A330-800s is an aircraft that does not yet have final performance figures and therefore, it's unclear to us whether it does or does not have the range to make it to Europe. And if so and what sort of passenger configuration, because if you identify the cabin which had some cost advantages, it adds weight to the airplane and so it can't go quite as far. So I think that question is yet unanswered and we will find out more as we work with Airbus, as 2019 approaches and the A330-800neo delivery dates come closer."

Link below:
Also discussed:
-potentially moving up some A321Neo deliveries and accelerating the exit of the 767's.
-A380 (lolz)
-Tokyo-Honolulu at 12-14 widebodies a day!

Hawaiian Holdings' (HA) CEO Mark Dunkerley on Q3 2016 Results - Earnings Call Transcript $HA
http://www.seekingalpha.com/article/4013009
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F9Animal
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Re: Hawaiian Airlines mulls European destinations

Mon Oct 24, 2016 3:48 pm

Come on now! We all know Hawaiian has seriously considered any possible destination that could make the airline money. I am certain calculations have been made on just about every possible place the new plane could fly to. But, HA still has so many places in the US it could still fly to, and I would think they are looking into mainland growth for now. Maybe even more Asian potential as well.

Will HA ever fly to London? Well, anything is possible I guess.
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FBWFTW
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Re: Hawaiian Airlines mulls European destinations

Mon Oct 24, 2016 5:14 pm

F9Animal wrote:
But, HA still has so many places in the US it could still fly to, and I would think they are looking into mainland growth for now.

Will HA ever fly to London? Well, anything is possible I guess.


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a380787
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Re: Hawaiian Airlines mulls European destinations

Mon Oct 24, 2016 5:38 pm

Rajahdhani wrote:
For HA, this all must be comically good;
02/2008 - Place an order for 6 A350-800.
07/2014 - Convert said order for 6 A358s to 6 A330-800NEO.
09/2014 - A358 cancelled.
Present Day;
-A338 looks DOA.
-A339 essentially becomes the A358 that they wanted to begin with.


Long story short - HA insists on that smaller seater variant, Airbus refuses to deliver since few others wanted it, and HA, for whatever reason, still refuses to consider 787-8 and 787-9, which might exactly be the right replacement for their 332s.

If HA truly cared about HNL-Europe, the 789 would get there with no questions asked while 338/339 still poses questions, particularly regarding westbound payload in winter. It would be an irony if Norwegian beats HA to that by launching LGW-HNL before HA has a chance.
 
azjubilee
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Re: Hawaiian Airlines mulls European destinations

Mon Oct 24, 2016 5:46 pm

a380787 wrote:
Long story short - HA insists on that smaller seater variant, Airbus refuses to deliver since few others wanted it, and HA, for whatever reason, still refuses to consider 787-8 and 787-9, which might exactly be the right replacement for their 332s..


How do you know they're NOT considering the 787? 8-)
 
a380787
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Re: Hawaiian Airlines mulls European destinations

Mon Oct 24, 2016 5:53 pm

azjubilee wrote:
a380787 wrote:
Long story short - HA insists on that smaller seater variant, Airbus refuses to deliver since few others wanted it, and HA, for whatever reason, still refuses to consider 787-8 and 787-9, which might exactly be the right replacement for their 332s..


How do you know they're NOT considering the 787? 8-)


They might've asked Boeing for RFP, but that's hardly a serious consideration when most airlines RFP for tons of frames they don't really care for (and frequently used just as a bargaining chip to lower the price). Despite so much uncertainty on the 338 (and the previous 358 fiasco), the CEO sounded like he's very adamant on continuing this Airbus pathway. That doesn't sound like someone who has paid attention to the 787 with any meaningful detail to me.

(A placeholder "study" of the 787 for the sake of pretending to satisfy fiduciary responsibilities doesn't count at all)
 
azjubilee
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Re: Hawaiian Airlines mulls European destinations

Mon Oct 24, 2016 6:22 pm

a380787 wrote:
That doesn't sound like someone who has paid attention to the 787 with any meaningful detail to me.

(A placeholder "study" of the 787 for the sake of pretending to satisfy fiduciary responsibilities doesn't count at all)


I wouldn't use one comment in a quarterly earnings call to determine his thoughts on a fleet plan. I'm willing to bet HA has studied the 787 in far greater detail than you're assuming.
 
a380787
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Re: Hawaiian Airlines mulls European destinations

Mon Oct 24, 2016 6:32 pm

azjubilee wrote:
a380787 wrote:
That doesn't sound like someone who has paid attention to the 787 with any meaningful detail to me.

(A placeholder "study" of the 787 for the sake of pretending to satisfy fiduciary responsibilities doesn't count at all)


I wouldn't use one comment in a quarterly earnings call to determine his thoughts on a fleet plan. I'm willing to bet HA has studied the 787 in far greater detail than you're assuming.


HA can study all they want, but if Airbus' repeated 358+338 fiascos doesn't make HA change their mind, then essentially nothing will. HA with 787 is one of those "I'll believe it when I see it".

Everyone studies every single market offering, so that in itself is hardly indicative. I'd bet if you look hard enough, there's probably some internal study at HA discussing KOA to OOL too.
 
Kiwirob
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Re: Hawaiian Airlines mulls European destinations

Mon Oct 24, 2016 6:38 pm

NichCage wrote:
I don't know if it is just me, but I think there is no kind of market for a direct Honolulu-London flight. Sure, there are people from London who will go to Hawaii, but the number of passengers is too small to justify a non-stop flight between the two cities. The flight would also be very long, and I think it would be a waste of an aircraft.


Why would you presume it's just from London, I live in Norway and would have no problem flying to London to connect to a flight to Hawaii. I went a coup,e of time as as kid from NZ, my wife would love to go and I think it's a pretty good destination for kids, price wise Hawaii is fairly cheap as well.
 
azjubilee
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Re: Hawaiian Airlines mulls European destinations

Mon Oct 24, 2016 6:43 pm

a380787 wrote:
HA can study all they want, but if Airbus' repeated 358+338 fiascos doesn't make HA change their mind, then essentially nothing will. HA with 787 is one of those "I'll believe it when I see it".Everyone studies every single market offering, so that in itself is hardly indicative. I'd bet if you look hard enough, there's probably some internal study at HA discussing KOA to OOL too.


There really is only a 350-800 fiasco. The 330-800 is so far, proceeding as normal. So, it's premature for HA to walk away from the -800 since not all the data is available. I agree somewhat, however, that 787s are unlikely, but if the -800 doesn't materialize in the form that HAL desires, the 787 is the only other option and could very much be considered (again).
 
Kiwirob
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Re: Hawaiian Airlines mulls European destinations

Mon Oct 24, 2016 6:46 pm

ojjunior wrote:
b747400erf wrote:
readytotaxi wrote:
How long would a non-stop be?


Very long. HNL-JFK is a 9 hour flight

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/HAL ... /PHNL/KJFK

JFK-LHR is 6 hours

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/BAW ... /KJFK/EGLL

And all to chase tour package customers.


HNL-LHR?
Just another day for any 77L or 77W even fully loaded...
For comparison:
Image

GRU-DXB 7,592 mi
HNL-LHR 7,237 mi

Now, demand for HNL-LHR-HNL services is another question...


But with connections to AKL, SYD or other Australian cities it becomes far more interesting, I'd happily fly back to NZ via Hawaii with a weeks stopoever either on the way there or on the way back, it's no different to flying via Asia or North America.
 
NichCage
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Re: Hawaiian Airlines mulls European destinations

Mon Oct 24, 2016 6:53 pm

I think I read somewhere that Edelweiss Air wants to fly between ZRH and HNL. Is this true? There are aircraft that can operate direct between Hawaii and Europe (as I believe Lufthansa flown a charter between MUC and HNL a few years ago with the A340-600) but I assume most newer long haul jets could do it. However, it would probably be low yielding, but since I don't know the actual market I may be wrong.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Hawaiian Airlines mulls European destinations

Mon Oct 24, 2016 7:34 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
ojjunior wrote:
b747400erf wrote:

Very long. HNL-JFK is a 9 hour flight

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/HAL ... /PHNL/KJFK

JFK-LHR is 6 hours

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/BAW ... /KJFK/EGLL

And all to chase tour package customers.


HNL-LHR?
Just another day for any 77L or 77W even fully loaded...
For comparison:
Image

GRU-DXB 7,592 mi
HNL-LHR 7,237 mi

Now, demand for HNL-LHR-HNL services is another question...


But with connections to AKL, SYD or other Australian cities it becomes far more interesting, I'd happily fly back to NZ via Hawaii with a weeks stopoever either on the way there or on the way back, it's no different to flying via Asia or North America.


Interesting routing, Europe - New Zealand threw Hawaii. How many extra miles does that take?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
32andBelow
Posts: 5034
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:54 am

Re: Hawaiian Airlines mulls European destinations

Mon Oct 24, 2016 7:43 pm

Could HA do HNL/Europe via a point in Continental US? We must not forge that HA has the authority to fly from any point in the USA.
 
a380787
Posts: 4573
Joined: Tue Jul 09, 2013 4:38 pm

Re: Hawaiian Airlines mulls European destinations

Mon Oct 24, 2016 7:52 pm

32andBelow wrote:
Could HA do HNL/Europe via a point in Continental US? We must not forge that HA has the authority to fly from any point in the USA.


Sure they can ... and most likely be financially slaughtered along the way.
 
VolvoBus
Posts: 232
Joined: Fri Sep 30, 2016 5:47 pm

Re: Hawaiian Airlines mulls European destinations

Mon Oct 24, 2016 8:08 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
NichCage wrote:
I don't know if it is just me, but I think there is no kind of market for a direct Honolulu-London flight. Sure, there are people from London who will go to Hawaii, but the number of passengers is too small to justify a non-stop flight between the two cities. The flight would also be very long, and I think it would be a waste of an aircraft.


Why would you presume it's just from London, I live in Norway and would have no problem flying to London to connect to a flight to Hawaii. I went a coup,e of time as as kid from NZ, my wife would love to go and I think it's a pretty good destination for kids, price wise Hawaii is fairly cheap as well.



The Unique Selling Point ( sorry about the marketing jargon ) is that it's direct. From anywhere else,it requires a change,just as it does now. In fact,it might be a disadvantage, as the change in the US enables a passenger to clear US customs and immigration there, as opposed to on arrival in Honolulu. Any other island requires another change,which can be avoided by using a different US airline.

Ultimately,it becomes another option rather than a first choice, which won't be great for yields.
 
User avatar
intotheair
Posts: 1899
Joined: Sun Aug 31, 2014 12:49 pm

Re: Hawaiian Airlines mulls European destinations

Mon Oct 24, 2016 8:14 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
ojjunior wrote:

HNL-LHR?
Just another day for any 77L or 77W even fully loaded...
For comparison:
Image

GRU-DXB 7,592 mi
HNL-LHR 7,237 mi

Now, demand for HNL-LHR-HNL services is another question...


But with connections to AKL, SYD or other Australian cities it becomes far more interesting, I'd happily fly back to NZ via Hawaii with a weeks stopoever either on the way there or on the way back, it's no different to flying via Asia or North America.


Interesting routing, Europe - New Zealand threw Hawaii. How many extra miles does that take?


Surprisingly, it's only 221 more miles than LHR-AKL nonstop. That's less of a detour than even LHR-LAX-AKL: http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=lhr-akl,+l ... hr-dxb-akl
300 319 320 321 332 333 345 346 380 717 733 734 735 73G 738 739 744 752 753 762 763 772 77W 788 789 CR2 CR7 CR9 CRK Q400 E175 DC10 MD82 MD90
AA AF AS AY AZ B6 BA BR DL F9 FI GA HA KF LH MI QX SK SN SQ UA US VY WN
 
Kiwirob
Posts: 13084
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

Re: Hawaiian Airlines mulls European destinations

Mon Oct 24, 2016 8:14 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
ojjunior wrote:

HNL-LHR?
Just another day for any 77L or 77W even fully loaded...
For comparison:
Image



Interesting routing, Europe - New Zealand threw Hawaii. How many extra miles does that take?


It takes me 4 flights and nearly 30 hours flying time to get to NZ from where I live in Norway, I'd have no problems flying via Hawaii, it's not going to be much longer than via Asia or North America.
 
NichCage
Posts: 916
Joined: Wed Jun 22, 2016 6:43 pm

Re: Hawaiian Airlines mulls European destinations

Mon Oct 24, 2016 9:53 pm

intotheair wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:

But with connections to AKL, SYD or other Australian cities it becomes far more interesting, I'd happily fly back to NZ via Hawaii with a weeks stopoever either on the way there or on the way back, it's no different to flying via Asia or North America.


Interesting routing, Europe - New Zealand threw Hawaii. How many extra miles does that take?


Surprisingly, it's only 221 more miles than LHR-AKL nonstop. That's less of a detour than even LHR-LAX-AKL: http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=lhr-akl,+l ... hr-dxb-akl


You made a good point there regarding the fact that the distance between GRU and DXB is longer than a flight between HNL and LHR. It all depends on the market. Emirates has been flying to GRU for years and has established a market there. The market between HNL and LHR is not as large.
 
oslmgm
Posts: 225
Joined: Wed Dec 03, 2014 6:29 pm

Re: Hawaiian Airlines mulls European destinations

Mon Oct 24, 2016 10:26 pm

32andBelow wrote:
Could HA do HNL/Europe via a point in Continental US? We must not forge that HA has the authority to fly from any point in the USA.

Won't HA need approval from the EU to fly to Europe - like NAI needs approval to fly to the USA? That approval could take years, if the EU wants to "take proportional measures in response to a violation": viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1345871
(Applies to HA flying from HNL as well, I guess.)
 
User avatar
ojjunior
Posts: 986
Joined: Thu Jul 13, 2006 12:31 am

Re: Hawaiian Airlines mulls European destinations

Mon Oct 24, 2016 11:11 pm

You're absolutely right, but like EK did in the past with GRU, start flying 1x or 2x a week to analyze the demand sounds reasonable.
And a massive marketing campaign would be helpful as well, and i'm pretty sure EK has no problems with that.
Last edited by ojjunior on Mon Oct 24, 2016 11:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
User avatar
ojjunior
Posts: 986
Joined: Thu Jul 13, 2006 12:31 am

Re: Hawaiian Airlines mulls European destinations

Mon Oct 24, 2016 11:16 pm

NichCage wrote:

You made a good point there regarding the fact that the distance between GRU and DXB is longer than a flight between HNL and LHR. It all depends on the market. Emirates has been flying to GRU for years and has established a market there. The market between HNL and LHR is not as large.

You're absolutely right, but like EK did in the past with GRU, start flying 1x or 2x a week to analyze the demand sounds reasonable.
And a massive marketing campaign would be helpful as well, and i'm pretty sure EK has no problems with that.
 
User avatar
XLA2008
Posts: 429
Joined: Mon May 30, 2016 8:53 pm

Re: Hawaiian Airlines mulls European destinations

Tue Oct 25, 2016 12:29 am

You could be surprised, and find out that if a non-stop service to Hawaii opens up it could attract a lot more people than the current average! The difficulty of getting to Hawaii from Europe at the moment will put most people off! However it might be far and it might be a long flight but thousands of people travel every year to far flung destinations just for Vacation! European people have seen Spain and the canaries and North Africa and it's all on the door step for a quick cheap vacation anytime they want... people are traveling further for more exotic and exciting destinations! And Hawaii might be to Americans what Greece is to Europeans but that doesn't stop all you Americans from flying all the way to Greece to go visit! I don't know if it will work, but if you schedule it right, get cheap slots, market it well and work with tour operators within Europe then... good chance you could make it work!

There are just as many niche flights operating at the moment that shouldn't work... but they do! Truth of the matter is nobody in these forums knows (as much as they would like to pretend they do) nobody actually knows if it would work because it's never been done! But like I said if you get the logistics in place, the right prices, economical plane... agreements with tour companies, marketing etc... then you could make it work! Just have to go about it the right way!

The only reason most tourist destinations are as popular as they are is because tour operators package them up, market and promote them and people go! Take the tour operators away I bet you would see a huge decline! I would fly it non stop! Would be much easier than getting off feeling like crap having to clear customs and immigration then mess around going to another terminal to catch another flight like you do now!
“For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and there you will long to return.“
 
Viscount724
Posts: 19316
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

Re: Hawaiian Airlines mulls European destinations

Tue Oct 25, 2016 1:30 am

ojjunior wrote:
NichCage wrote:

You made a good point there regarding the fact that the distance between GRU and DXB is longer than a flight between HNL and LHR. It all depends on the market. Emirates has been flying to GRU for years and has established a market there. The market between HNL and LHR is not as large.

You're absolutely right, but like EK did in the past with GRU, start flying 1x or 2x a week to analyze the demand sounds reasonable.
And a massive marketing campaign would be helpful as well, and i'm pretty sure EK has no problems with that.


That's not correct. EK started service to GRU 6 x week.
http://www.emirates.com/ye/english/abou ... cle=226872

It may have been daily as this more recent item says they started with daily service.
http://www.emirates.com/english/about/m ... -sao-paulo

A 1 or 2 x week longhaul service is very costly with the crew stuck at the destination for up to a week, or 3 or 4 days with a 2 x week service.

Has EK ever launched a new destination with only 1 x week or 2 x week service? I doubt it.
 
User avatar
XLA2008
Posts: 429
Joined: Mon May 30, 2016 8:53 pm

Re: Hawaiian Airlines mulls European destinations

Tue Oct 25, 2016 1:39 am

Viscount724 wrote:
ojjunior wrote:
NichCage wrote:

You made a good point there regarding the fact that the distance between GRU and DXB is longer than a flight between HNL and LHR. It all depends on the market. Emirates has been flying to GRU for years and has established a market there. The market between HNL and LHR is not as large.

You're absolutely right, but like EK did in the past with GRU, start flying 1x or 2x a week to analyze the demand sounds reasonable.
And a massive marketing campaign would be helpful as well, and i'm pretty sure EK has no problems with that.


That's not correct. EK started service to GRU 6 x week.
http://www.emirates.com/ye/english/abou ... cle=226872

It may have been daily as this more recent item says they started with daily service.
http://www.emirates.com/english/about/m ... -sao-paulo

A 1 or 2 x week longhaul service is very costly with the crew stuck at the destination for up to a week, or 3 or 4 days with a 2 x week service.

Has EK ever launched a new destination with only 1 x week or 2 x week service? I doubt it.


You would be suprised at how many airlines (mainly charter) but how many airlines have 4+ day stop overs! I regularly have stop overs like that! In fact my last trip was 5 days.
“For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and there you will long to return.“

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