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LamboAston
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Would a complete refit to update the B757 be profitable/worth it?

Wed Sep 28, 2016 1:20 am

The B757 currently has no 1:1 replacement (Don't say A321, they are smaller), and as they are getting to the age where most aircraft would have been retired, would airlines be interested in a update/refit of existing B757s? This could extend the life of the aircraft by a few years until the Boeing MOM comes to market.
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a380787
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Re: Would a complete refit to update the B757 be profitable/worth it?

Wed Sep 28, 2016 1:30 am

The only cost effective solution would be off-the-shelf engine of the current generation. Which engine at 42000-45000lb range would you suggest ? The 321neo engine max out in the low 30s while the 787/330neo engines start at the mid-to-high 60s.

The one remotely close would the Trent 500 that was used to power the A340-500/600 series, but that's already a 15-year old design, and still 10,000 lbs over-powered (with the associated empty structural weight you won't need).
 
Freshside3
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Re: Would a complete refit to update the B757 be profitable/worth it?

Wed Sep 28, 2016 1:32 am

Boeing is delusional, thinking the 737-900 is a suitable replacement for the 757. It's just not working.
 
a380787
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Re: Would a complete refit to update the B757 be profitable/worth it?

Wed Sep 28, 2016 1:39 am

Freshside3 wrote:
Boeing is delusional, thinking the 737-900 is a suitable replacement for the 757. It's just not working.


The -900ER was still okay. Not spectacular, but gets the job done for sub-5-hour missions. (DL AS UA all has it, so it's exactly a total dud) It's the MAX 9 that's really trounced by A321neo, while Boeing half-a$$ed "MAX 10" fix is the mother of all band aid. And of course, the MAX 200 tailored for ULCCs also killed a lot of the potential MAX 9 orders.

I'm still of the opinion that UA is purposely holding off any A321LR commitments until they see what Boeing can do with MOM, which could potentially be a good replacement solution for their 752, 753, 762, and certain 763.
Last edited by a380787 on Wed Sep 28, 2016 1:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
tomaheath
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Re: Would a complete refit to update the B757 be profitable/worth it?

Wed Sep 28, 2016 2:32 am

I'm thinking to OP is referring to the current 757s getting a "life extension".
 
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intotheair
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Re: Would a complete refit to update the B757 be profitable/worth it?

Wed Sep 28, 2016 2:37 am

Hasn't this already sort of happened to some extent with the FI and ex-CO 752s?
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alasizon
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Re: Would a complete refit to update the B757 be profitable/worth it?

Wed Sep 28, 2016 4:18 am

tomaheath wrote:
I'm thinking to OP is referring to the current 757s getting a "life extension".


That was my take as well. That being said, DL and AA have both done 757 refurbs. The interior really is what will stretch the life of the planes given there isn't any sort of PIP that can be done at this point and they are going to be on the way out either way.
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keitherson
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Re: Would a complete refit to update the B757 be profitable/worth it?

Wed Sep 28, 2016 4:41 am

The Concorde never had a 1:1 replacement, either.
 
SCAT15F
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Re: Would a complete refit to update the B757 be profitable/worth it?

Wed Sep 28, 2016 4:59 am

tomaheath wrote:
I'm thinking to OP is referring to the current 757s getting a "life extension".



Yes. This is not the tired old "lets restart 757 production" thread.

The question is, would the cost of developing a new engine/nacelle, some interior updates/refurb and re-certification be worth the cost. I don't honestly know, but if you could get solid commitments/orders for the refurb/re-engine of even half of the 1000 or so 757's, it might pay for itself and possibly take away a few hundred customers for the A321neo-LR. Plus, you would still have plenty of spare parts around; no production restart needed.
 
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Re: Would a complete refit to update the B757 be profitable/worth it?

Wed Sep 28, 2016 5:45 am

Freshside3 wrote:
Boeing is delusional, thinking the 737-900 is a suitable replacement for the 757. It's just not working.



I second that!!
 
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Re: Would a complete refit to update the B757 be profitable/worth it?

Wed Sep 28, 2016 5:47 am

a380787 wrote:
The only cost effective solution would be off-the-shelf engine of the current generation. Which engine at 42000-45000lb range would you suggest ? The 321neo engine max out in the low 30s while the 787/330neo engines start at the mid-to-high 60s.

The one remotely close would the Trent 500 that was used to power the A340-500/600 series, but that's already a 15-year old design, and still 10,000 lbs over-powered (with the associated empty structural weight you won't need).


If it could be done, I would love to see Trent 500s on 757s.
 
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RL777
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Re: Would a complete refit to update the B757 be profitable/worth it?

Wed Sep 28, 2016 6:05 am

This topic has been covered numerous times over the past few years, the general census amongst this site is that its time to move on from the 757 and the only way to "cover" that market segment is a clean sheet aircraft. Airbus has done an excellent job with the A321NEO which is a viable option for some 757 missions.
 
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LamboAston
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Re: Would a complete refit to update the B757 be profitable/worth it?

Wed Sep 28, 2016 6:20 am

keitherson wrote:
The Concorde never had a 1:1 replacement, either.

However, only 20 were in service, not several hundred.
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Re: Would a complete refit to update the B757 be profitable/worth it?

Wed Sep 28, 2016 6:26 am

RL777 wrote:
This topic has been covered numerous times over the past few years, the general census amongst this site is that its time to move on from the 757 and the only way to "cover" that market segment is a clean sheet aircraft. Airbus has done an excellent job with the A321NEO which is a viable option for some 757 missions.


"some" as in "95++%" :-)

... and how much less fuel does a A321NEO take for doing the same job?

757 reengine will extend range but has no impact on the original design decision re distribution of OEW/payload/fuel.
it retains too much dead mass to become competitive.
( IMU showing off Airbus brilliance in doing perceptionally and initially underranged designs that grow up into a desired market spot
effecting constantly increasing sales.)
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LamboAston
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Re: Would a complete refit to update the B757 be profitable/worth it?

Wed Sep 28, 2016 6:27 am

RL777 wrote:
This topic has been covered numerous times over the past few years, the general census amongst this site is that its time to move on from the 757 and the only way to "cover" that market segment is a clean sheet aircraft. Airbus has done an excellent job with the A321NEO which is a viable option for some 757 missions.


Some, not most. The size reduction is too much for some routes as well, especially B753 routes.
Last edited by LamboAston on Wed Sep 28, 2016 6:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Wayfarer515
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Re: Would a complete refit to update the B757 be profitable/worth it?

Wed Sep 28, 2016 7:02 am

Why not neo the Tu-214? It has the range and the production line is still available. I have seen them cross from St.Petersburg to Vladivostock with the current PS-90A´s, which are about the equivalent of the RB-211's in terms of fuel consumption but with a little less power. For sure the PW-1400 series can be fitted to that airframe without much of a problem, and for sure UAC would be willing to pay the development cost.
 
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Re: Would a complete refit to update the B757 be profitable/worth it?

Wed Sep 28, 2016 7:21 am

LamboAston wrote:
Some, not most. The size reduction is too much for some routes as well, especially B753 routes.


Yeah, right for all 55 of them ( from the 720 that are still active :-)
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garpd
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Re: Would a complete refit to update the B757 be profitable/worth it?

Wed Sep 28, 2016 7:27 am

I have often wondered this myself.

Basler Turbo Conversions seem to be making a good penny on converting DC3s into turboprops and extending the fuselage a little. The work they de effectively zeros the airframe time.
Conventional A.Net wisdom does not allow for this program to even exist. After all, the DC3 is old, has been replaced numerous times by newer, more efficient aircraft. But here we are, in a world were Turboprop DC3s are being assembled, sold and operated. My point is that it is not always as clear cut as "Plane Y is cheaper than plane X by this many %, so Plane Y is better and there is no market for X."
Sometimes if a plane has desirable attributes that cannot be found elsewhere and no new replacement frame can be found, a refurb program is a good alternative. Look at the DC-8 re-engine program. Someone decided that was worthwhile and it was done. Kingairs have been retrofitted from piston to turboprop as well as DHC-2 Beavers. The DC-10 also went through a partial upgrade with a glass cockpit for FedEx who then dubbed them MD-10s. Refurb programs exist or have existed and work well when there is a need.

I'm not saying a 757 refurb project would work or be financially viable or there is even enough demand to justify it. I'm just saying that I have often wondered if it would be possible. But as many have pointed out, the sticking point is the lack of appropriately thrust rated engines. There isn't anything in the same 40k to 45K thrust range.

My guess is, that if an engine could be found, there is nothing to suggest the 757 could not be overhauled, it's airframe time reduced/extended and put back into service for 10 to 20 more years. You could probably take MAX avionic architecture and retro fit it, giving the refurb 757 more modern cockpit.
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VSMUT
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Re: Would a complete refit to update the B757 be profitable/worth it?

Wed Sep 28, 2016 8:13 am

LamboAston wrote:
Don't say A321, they are smaller


No it is not. It will be certified for 240 passengers, compared to 239 on the 757-200, and has a larger cargo volume too.

SCAT15F wrote:
I don't honestly know, but if you could get solid commitments/orders for the refurb/re-engine of even half of the 1000 or so 757's, it might pay for itself and possibly take away a few hundred customers for the A321neo-LR.


500 is extremely optimistic. You are looking at a potential market for somewhere between 10 and 20 planes, most likely a lot less than that. Lets face it, the total in-service 757-200 passenger fleet is now down to some 350 planes. Over 270 have been converted to freighters, and they have so low utilization that a re-engine program would be unfeasible. Of the remaining passenger fleet, almost everybody has made plans to get rid of them. Delta will be replacing the majority of theirs with A321s and 737-900ERs. United has 100 737-9 on order, and only 56 757-200 to replace. American has only 53 757-200, and 127 A321NEO/CEO on order. Even Icelandair is moving on.

:)
 
SwissCanuck
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Re: Would a complete refit to update the B757 be profitable/worth it?

Wed Sep 28, 2016 8:28 am

garpd wrote:

Basler Turbo Conversions seem to be making a good penny on converting DC3s into turboprops and extending the fuselage a little. The work they de effectively zeros the airframe time.


This is quite a bit easier to do on a non-pressurized airframe. You're comparing apples to steak.
 
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Re: Would a complete refit to update the B757 be profitable/worth it?

Wed Sep 28, 2016 9:01 am

If we talk about a refurbishing, that has been done. Winglets came after production was ceased and at FI for example all frames have glass cockpits.

I do not believe that any 757 will ever be reengined, but the gap to a GTF is not that big, the 757 started out with 36,600 to 37,400 lbf engines.
Last edited by mjoelnir on Wed Sep 28, 2016 1:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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garpd
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Re: Would a complete refit to update the B757 be profitable/worth it?

Wed Sep 28, 2016 9:23 am

SwissCanuck wrote:
This is quite a bit easier to do on a non-pressurized airframe. You're comparing apples to steak.

And you're missing the point entirely! :roll:
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FGITD
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Re: Would a complete refit to update the B757 be profitable/worth it?

Wed Sep 28, 2016 1:02 pm

garpd wrote:
SwissCanuck wrote:
This is quite a bit easier to do on a non-pressurized airframe. You're comparing apples to steak.

And you're missing the point entirely! :roll:


He's not wrong though.

The Dc-3 is used by small operators who's options are most likely to refurbish their tiny fleet, or cease operating.

The 757 is still in use by majors, and the number of cycles plays a bigger role.

The 757 is going away. There's no stopping that.
 
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garpd
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Re: Would a complete refit to update the B757 be profitable/worth it?

Wed Sep 28, 2016 1:12 pm

FGITD wrote:

The 757 is going away. There's no stopping that.


Agreed. But that is not the topic of discussion. It was asked if an update to the 757 would be profitable/worth it. Not "is the 757 disappearing?".
A.net logic says no. History/experience says it depends on who wants it and how much they want to pay for it.
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Re: Would a complete refit to update the B757 be profitable/worth it?

Wed Sep 28, 2016 1:17 pm

VSMUT wrote:
500 is extremely optimistic. You are looking at a potential market for somewhere between 10 and 20 planes, most likely a lot less than that. Lets face it, the total in-service 757-200 passenger fleet is now down to some 350 planes. Over 270 have been converted to freighters, and they have so low utilization that a re-engine program would be unfeasible. Of the remaining passenger fleet, almost everybody has made plans to get rid of them. Delta will be replacing the majority of theirs with A321s and 737-900ERs. United has 100 737-9 on order, and only 56 757-200 to replace. American has only 53 757-200, and 127 A321NEO/CEO on order. Even Icelandair is moving on.

:)


Exactly.

The number of customers with enough aircraft for the economies of scale to do this that are also non-freighters is exceedingly small and getting smaller every day.

Delta.......and......umm.......uhhh....that's about it. AA and UA both have near term plans to retire most of theirs leaving DL and then UPS and FedEx as the largest remaining operators. Every other operator only possesses a relative handful of them.
 
FGITD
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Re: Would a complete refit to update the B757 be profitable/worth it?

Wed Sep 28, 2016 1:49 pm

garpd wrote:
FGITD wrote:

The 757 is going away. There's no stopping that.


Agreed. But that is not the topic of discussion. It was asked if an update to the 757 would be profitable/worth it. Not "is the 757 disappearing?".
A.net logic says no. History/experience says it depends on who wants it and how much they want to pay for it.



That's exactly what the topic is, because outside of this website, just about no one is talking about extending the lifetime of the 757. They're discussing retirement. There's no real indication that anyone is interested in such a program
 
JHwk
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Re: Would a complete refit to update the B757 be profitable/worth it?

Wed Sep 28, 2016 3:10 pm

Well, conventional wisdom is an engine program is at least $1B R&D/certification, plus about $25M per engine. Beyond that, it really comes down to how much you want to do to the plane. Say you invested another $30M per plane to add cycles somehow and make other improvements-- with about $3-500M in certification costs.

So, variable cost or plane around $80M, and $1.3-1.5B to recover for development. How many planes to recover costs over? 100 would give you a total cost of $95M per plane. Compared to a list price of $120M for a 321NEO.

So, pretty much no.
 
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Re: Would a complete refit to update the B757 be profitable/worth it?

Wed Sep 28, 2016 6:19 pm

Freshside3 wrote:
Boeing is delusional, thinking the 737-900 is a suitable replacement for the 757. It's just not working.


Indeed.
 
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AA777223
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Re: Would a complete refit to update the B757 be profitable/worth it?

Wed Sep 28, 2016 10:19 pm

I think the original poster is positing something similar to when a bunch of 707s got 700-ified and got 737 CFM engines. If it worked on that frame, I think he's asking why couldn't it work for the 757.
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Re: Would a complete refit to update the B757 be profitable/worth it?

Wed Sep 28, 2016 10:33 pm

It of course all comes down to whether there is an engine or not and the answer is no, there is no engine. Yes the PW1000 could potentially make enough thrust to come close or match that of the original engines on the 757, but for it to be able to cross the Atlantic for example it would then need larger wings like they did with the 777X. Less thrust, but better wings. It could work, but it would be far too expensive.

The other issue now is that the A321LR is close which would make it hard. They would be best off stretching the 757 slightly in that case to keep the A321 just out of reach and help it with economics just 737-800 being longer than the A320. This might require extra thrust which would bring back the engine problem. If an engine existed that could do this, it probably could work and would be better than a 737-10. One other though is that they bring back the 757 based off of the 757-300 with updated wing and engines. Again if an engine existed that could do that, MoM taken care of for relatively cheap.

VSMUT wrote:
LamboAston wrote:
Don't say A321, they are smaller


No it is not. It will be certified for 240 passengers, compared to 239 on the 757-200, and has a larger cargo volume too.


The A321 is a physically smaller plane than the 757. It certainly is a bit shorter. In a typical configuration the 757 is bigger.

VSMUT wrote:
500 is extremely optimistic. You are looking at a potential market for somewhere between 10 and 20 planes, most likely a lot less than that. Lets face it, the total in-service 757-200 passenger fleet is now down to some 350 planes. Over 270 have been converted to freighters, and they have so low utilization that a re-engine program would be unfeasible. Of the remaining passenger fleet, almost everybody has made plans to get rid of them. Delta will be replacing the majority of theirs with A321s and 737-900ERs. United has 100 737-9 on order, and only 56 757-200 to replace. American has only 53 757-200, and 127 A321NEO/CEO on order. Even Icelandair is moving on.

:)

The point is that it is too late and the A321LR can't realistically be outdone in price and availability. It would take many years to bring out a new 757 that could beat it thanks to the engine situation. The 737-9 cannot fully replace the 757. It lacks the range. The A321LR has the range. That's why I could see UA getting some. DL has no clear plan to retire their remaining 757s as they believe that the A321 and 739 aren't good enough and are pushing for something better. The A321LR may again be the answer. The only problem with the A321LR are limitations for cargo capacity and poor takeoff and climb performance.

Boeing made a mistake with the 747-8. This effort should have been put towards a new 757. They should have come forward to the engine manufacturers and outlines some specifications that such a plane would need and pushed them to make an engine. Instead of putting a new wing and engines on the 747-8 they could have done all that to the 757. It would have been more capable and far more efficient and would have included an improved 757-300 which would be the MoM. They would have beat the A321LR to the market by far and it would have done better than the 747-8 has.

The sad truth is that it is too late now...
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Natflyer
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Re: Would a complete refit to update the B757 be profitable/worth it?

Wed Sep 28, 2016 10:47 pm

AA777223 wrote:
I think the original poster is positing something similar to when a bunch of 707s got 700-ified and got 737 CFM engines. If it worked on that frame, I think he's asking why couldn't it work for the 757.


Not a bunch. There was only ever one test aircraft, and Boeing removed the CFM-56s and installed JT3s and sold it to Morocco as a tanker. These were not "737" engines, they were CFM-56-2 engines. However a lot of USAF C135s received CFMs.
The Cammacorp reengineing program for the DC-8 was however very successful and had the backing of Mcdonnell Douglas. A great plane to fly.

This whole discussion is moot as an engine does not exist to reengine the 757.
 
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Re: Would a complete refit to update the B757 be profitable/worth it?

Wed Sep 28, 2016 11:11 pm

The 757 is such a unique aircraft. However, at the end of the day, extending the life of the aircraft is not worth the cost. The 757 operates lots of domestic flights in the United States, but operators of the aircraft are retiring them from domestic flights. For flights from the United States and Europe that use the 757, the new A321 will be able to do everything the 757 has. While there are many other operators, I think that Icelandair would be the only airline interested in a new 757. Otherwise, most operators are replacing them because other aircraft can serve them better.
 
SwissCanuck
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Re: Would a complete refit to update the B757 be profitable/worth it?

Thu Sep 29, 2016 9:22 am

garpd wrote:
FGITD wrote:

The 757 is going away. There's no stopping that.


Agreed. But that is not the topic of discussion. It was asked if an update to the 757 would be profitable/worth it. Not "is the 757 disappearing?".
A.net logic says no. History/experience says it depends on who wants it and how much they want to pay for it.


hence my comment. No, it wouldn't be profitable, as there's no way to "zero" the airframe and get the ROI required. You can put as much lipstick and engine on it as you want, but if it's going to cycle out in 3 years it's going to cycle out in 3 years.
 
VSMUT
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Re: Would a complete refit to update the B757 be profitable/worth it?

Thu Sep 29, 2016 10:24 am

767333ER wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
No it is not. It will be certified for 240 passengers, compared to 239 on the 757-200, and has a larger cargo volume too.


The A321 is a physically smaller plane than the 757. It certainly is a bit shorter. In a typical configuration the 757 is bigger.


Yep, but in ways that don't really matter negatively to the airlines. Even if the A321NEO ends up with a slightly smaller typical configuration, keep in mind that airlines didn't mind downsizing from 747-400s to 777-300ERs with a much bigger loss of seats. With a physically smaller and lighter plane you get lower landing fees too.

767333ER wrote:
Boeing made a mistake with the 747-8. This effort should have been put towards a new 757. They should have come forward to the engine manufacturers and outlines some specifications that such a plane would need and pushed them to make an engine. Instead of putting a new wing and engines on the 747-8 they could have done all that to the 757. It would have been more capable and far more efficient and would have included an improved 757-300 which would be the MoM. They would have beat the A321LR to the market by far and it would have done better than the 747-8 has.


I doubt it would have mattered much. The problems with the 757 lie in the fact that it is too heavy and too big. Getting anything useful out of the 757 would have required a smaller A321/737NG sized (possibly slightly larger) wing, while reducing the weight of the fuselage, fitting new landing gear and so on. Once that was done, you would get a plane with the same performance limitations as the A321 (and none of the high performance that 757 fans love so much) - but at a much greater price and with no commonality with any other aircraft currently in service.
Nor do I think they would have beaten the A321LR to the market. The P&W GTF has only just entered service, and any earlier alternatives would have given the A321LR the ability to eventually leapfrog the 757 once it entered service.

The A321NEO and 737-9 have sold a combined 1700 aircraft. If the proposed new 757 was built, it would most likely have taken no more than 50% of those orders, or 850 aircraft. Realistically, the majority of orders would have come from the US3, amounting to no more than 300-400 aircraft, with only a dribble of orders from other customers. It would be even less if Boeing was still to offer the 737-900ER.
Those numbers are not impressive number at all, considering the development costs. A fraction of those development costs invested into the 737 would have given significantly more orders.

:)
 
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BaconButty
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Re: Would a complete refit to update the B757 be profitable/worth it?

Thu Sep 29, 2016 12:04 pm

LamboAston wrote:
RL777 wrote:
Some, not most. The size reduction is too much for some routes as well, especially B753 routes.

Why? If you can move less people at costs close to (or in this case less than!) your larger competitor, you can increase yield, either by reducing capacity on a route or increasing frequency. It used to be called "Zvezda's law" on here many moons ago, though it should have a corollary: "Only applies to the A380 on a.net".

I don't think some people get how difficult it will be for anything (new build, retrofit engines, whatever) in this segment to compete with models that are in commoditized families that have many thousands of frames operational, with the impact on operational costs that gives.

This article on why a new build 757max wouldn't work is doubly true for a re-engine of existing frames. It'll cost you close to a new A321, burn more fuel per seat, cost way more in maintenance and give you more seats to fill. Madness.
Down with that sort of thing!
 
spacecookie
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Re: Would a complete refit to update the B757 be profitable/worth it?

Thu Sep 29, 2016 12:33 pm

BaconButty wrote:
LamboAston wrote:
RL777 wrote:
Some, not most. The size reduction is too much for some routes as well, especially B753 routes.

Why? If you can move less people at costs close to (or in this case less than!) your larger competitor, you can increase yield, either by reducing capacity on a route or increasing frequency. It used to be called "Zvezda's law" on here many moons ago, though it should have a corollary: "Only applies to the A380 on a.net".

I don't think some people get how difficult it will be for anything (new build, retrofit engines, whatever) in this segment to compete with models that are in commoditized families that have many thousands of frames operational, with the impact on operational costs that gives.

This article on why a new build 757max wouldn't work is doubly true for a re-engine of existing frames. It'll cost you close to a new A321, burn more fuel per seat, cost way more in maintenance and give you more seats to fill. Madness.



I think we have to espérate here doing the same job, and doing the job the same way

You cant compare the beast 757 to an underpowered and stretched a320.

The 757 is gone still in use.
And i do prefer fly on an old 757 than on an medium old a321

Today both plane makers make planes to do the same job, but they do make less quality planes.
Thats my point of view.
 
WIederling
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Re: Would a complete refit to update the B757 be profitable/worth it?

Thu Sep 29, 2016 12:43 pm

SwissCanuck wrote:
This is quite a bit easier to do on a non-pressurized airframe. You're comparing apples to steak.


I get told by my veggi friends that their vegan shit tastes just like meat. :-)
Murphy is an optimist
 
cledaybuck
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Re: Would a complete refit to update the B757 be profitable/worth it?

Thu Sep 29, 2016 12:45 pm

WIederling wrote:
( IMU showing off Airbus brilliance in doing perceptionally and initially underranged designs that grow up into a desired market spot
effecting constantly increasing sales.)


What are you talking about? The A320 as launched had a range advantage over its nearest competitor (734). What recent Airbus designed is under ranged? A380? No. A350? No. In fact, Airbus went through a costly redesign of one of the models to extend its range. The current Airbus product that even kind of fits is the A333, which was launched alongside the long range A340.
As we celebrate mediocrity, all the boys upstairs want to see, how much you'll pay for what you used to get for free.
 
WIederling
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Re: Would a complete refit to update the B757 be profitable/worth it?

Thu Sep 29, 2016 12:53 pm

"You cant compare the beast 757 to an underpowered and stretched a320."

Aha.
Thrust to weight on an MTOW basis is .5 apart. 757:16.5% A321:16%.
so that is what makes or brakes a plane.

"Today both plane makers make planes to do the same job, but they do make less quality planes."

funny that all the new planes have less downtime and less accidents or unpleasant mishaps of any kind.
Technology has really moved on . Even if some are incapable of noticing this.
OK, there are those that would never buy anything but a local made 1930ties technology vehicle
with a knack for rolling over and guzzling fuel.
Murphy is an optimist
 
WIederling
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Re: Would a complete refit to update the B757 be profitable/worth it?

Thu Sep 29, 2016 12:59 pm

cledaybuck wrote:
What are you talking about? The A320 as launched had a range advantage over its nearest competitor (734). What recent Airbus designed is under ranged? A380? No. A350? No. In fact, Airbus went through a costly redesign of one of the models to extend its range. The current Airbus product that even kind of fits is the A333, which was launched alongside the long range A340.


Valid for the whole A330 family. With the -200 launched when that little bit of less OEW lifted it over some range trigger.
today the -300 has passed the same demarcation line and the -200 has lost interest.

and IMU same for the A321 that started out a short to medium range frame growing nicely over the years.
on the A320 family theA319 did the A330-200 thing.
Note, I don't see my observation as a downside to Airbus products.
Murphy is an optimist
 
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sassiciai
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Re: Would a complete refit to update the B757 be profitable/worth it?

Thu Sep 29, 2016 1:11 pm

In addition to all the technical and commercial reasons why the proposition in this thread is totally unrealistic, I just wonder about the group of 757 fanatics, and why they cant fantasize in private, like all the others.

There are zillions of fanatics for the 727, VC10, Comet, Trident, Caravelle, Concorde, DC8, and many others, but a.net is not regularly clogged up with eternally repetitive threads about breathing life into a dead dog!

Every dog has its day - the day of the 757 happened already!

Despite the thread title alluding to something else, this is just the next in a sequence of thousands of "757 is the greatest" threads - there is currently another one live here on a.net, where one pilot's POV proves why the 757 is unique!

It's a bit boring and repetitive to have all these 757 threads, could the guys who want to just open a dedicated website to discussing the superiority of their plane over everything past, current, and future, go open such a thread! Please!
 
Flighty
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Re: Would a complete refit to update the B757 be profitable/worth it?

Thu Sep 29, 2016 1:11 pm

The 757 design is approaching 40 years old. The fact they can even repair them and parts are still available is remarkable. These are antiques!! Fact, too bad so sad!!

The A321 has truly grown into the 757 role. People should relax and enjoy the success of the now-mighty A321. Does Boeing "need" to build an A321 clone, no! It is not that difficult to find Airbus' phone number. If you want a new "757 type airplane," which is becoming an outdated reference by the way... what you really mean is A321 type airplane... call Toulouse.
Last edited by Flighty on Thu Sep 29, 2016 1:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
cledaybuck
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Re: Would a complete refit to update the B757 be profitable/worth it?

Thu Sep 29, 2016 1:16 pm

WIederling wrote:
cledaybuck wrote:
What are you talking about? The A320 as launched had a range advantage over its nearest competitor (734). What recent Airbus designed is under ranged? A380? No. A350? No. In fact, Airbus went through a costly redesign of one of the models to extend its range. The current Airbus product that even kind of fits is the A333, which was launched alongside the long range A340.


Valid for the whole A330 family. With the -200 launched when that little bit of less OEW lifted it over some range trigger.
today the -300 has passed the same demarcation line and the -200 has lost interest.

and IMU same for the A321 that started out a short to medium range frame growing nicely over the years.
on the A320 family theA319 did the A330-200 thing.
Note, I don't see my observation as a downside to Airbus products.


I disagree. The A330 wasn't launched as an under ranged design intending to grow into a market. It was launched with the range it had because of its sister A340. Same with the A321. It wasn't designed as an under ranged 757. It was designed as a stretch of the A320, and inherited most of the design parameters of a plane that was designed to have more range than its closest competitor. I will agree that the growth over time has helped both of these designs, but to say it was a deliberate design decision is a bit of a stretch IMO.
As we celebrate mediocrity, all the boys upstairs want to see, how much you'll pay for what you used to get for free.
 
Alexdk
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Re: Would a complete refit to update the B757 be profitable/worth it?

Thu Sep 29, 2016 1:52 pm

Wayfarer515 wrote:
Why not neo the Tu-214? It has the range and the production line is still available. I have seen them cross from St.Petersburg to Vladivostock with the current PS-90A´s, which are about the equivalent of the RB-211's in terms of fuel consumption but with a little less power. For sure the PW-1400 series can be fitted to that airframe without much of a problem, and for sure UAC would be willing to pay the development cost.


Unfortunately, even in Russia TU 204 was overshadowed by other airplane projects, I.e. SSJ and Irkut MC-21. Moreover its passenger capacity is smaller than that of 757 and is comparable to that of A321.
Last edited by Alexdk on Thu Sep 29, 2016 7:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
VSMUT
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Re: Would a complete refit to update the B757 be profitable/worth it?

Thu Sep 29, 2016 6:46 pm

Wayfarer515 wrote:
Why not neo the Tu-214? It has the range and the production line is still available. I have seen them cross from St.Petersburg to Vladivostock with the current PS-90A´s, which are about the equivalent of the RB-211's in terms of fuel consumption but with a little less power. For sure the PW-1400 series can be fitted to that airframe without much of a problem, and for sure UAC would be willing to pay the development cost.


The Tu-204/214 is being replaced with the MC-21 ;) Slightly higher capacity, longer range and completely new design :D

:)
 
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LamboAston
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Re: Would a complete refit to update the B757 be profitable/worth it?

Thu Sep 29, 2016 9:13 pm

If you want to complain about this thread, don't read it. It is about a half full of sensible debate, and about half full of crap from people saying the 757 is dead/a321 does it's job etc.
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Varsity1
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Re: Would a complete refit to update the B757 be profitable/worth it?

Thu Sep 29, 2016 9:59 pm

It's surreal that this becomes a full blown topic every 48 hours.
"PPRuNe will no longer allow discussions regarding Etihad Airlines, its employees, executives, agents, or other representatives. Such threads will be deleted." - ME3 thug airlines suing anyone who brings negative information public..
 
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afterburner
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Re: Would a complete refit to update the B757 be profitable/worth it?

Thu Sep 29, 2016 10:18 pm

LamboAston wrote:
It is about a half full of sensible debate, and about half full of crap from people saying the 757 is dead/a321 does it's job etc.

So, if the opinions are different from yours, it means they are full of crap?
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Would a complete refit to update the B757 be profitable/worth it?

Thu Sep 29, 2016 11:07 pm

RL777 wrote:
This topic has been covered numerous times over the past few years, the general census amongst this site is that its time to move on from the 757 and the only way to "cover" that market segment is a clean sheet aircraft. Airbus has done an excellent job with the A321NEO which is a viable option for some 757 missions.

Let us talk the difficiencies of the 757:
1. Too heavy, hence -9 MAX as a replacement. Sorry 757 fans, the A321LR with the internal stretch is the replacement for low cargo routes.
2. Not enough cargo for some airlines. Those that do not need cargo will buy -9s or A321NEO/LR.
3. Too expensive of maintenance. New engines will solve half the issue.
4. Fuel burn.

The only solution that is competitive is a new cross section, wing, and engines.

Lightsaber
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LamboAston
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Re: Would a complete refit to update the B757 be profitable/worth it?

Fri Sep 30, 2016 12:42 am

afterburner wrote:
LamboAston wrote:
It is about a half full of sensible debate, and about half full of crap from people saying the 757 is dead/a321 does it's job etc.

So, if the opinions are different from yours, it means they are full of crap?

No, what I mean is people just coming onto the thread to hate on it.
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