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crazyplane1234
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Re: Would a complete refit to update the B757 be profitable/worth it?

Fri Sep 30, 2016 1:41 am

LamboAston wrote:
No, what I mean is people just coming onto the thread to hate on it.


They're just annoyed that this topic keeps getting brought back up. It's pretty much become a "law" of A.net.
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2175301
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Re: Would a complete refit to update the B757 be profitable/worth it?

Fri Sep 30, 2016 2:08 am

Lets give the OP his due. He did ask a new question, and not the standard "lets restart the 757 production line, with upgrades"

The reality is that with the exception of the engines it probably is possible to overhaul the interior of the plane with minor upgrades (a D check +) for not a lot of money; and we may actually see this done by a few carriers with routes that are perfect for the 757.

Large scale (as in many frame) upgrades would take a reasonably modern engine. It would not have to be the latest generation; but would be a new engine. The reality is that there is not enough potential demand for this for any engine manufacturer to produce such an engine and recover development cost. Not even close. So, its a dead issue.

I actually think that there would be more potential for a new and retrofit engine for the 767, which could have a lot more potential engines - not to mention that it is still in production. But, so far that does not seem likely either.

Have a great day,
 
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redzeppelin
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Re: Would a complete refit to update the B757 be profitable/worth it?

Fri Sep 30, 2016 3:04 am

As long as we are dreaming, I want to see the 767-400 fleet refitted with the GEnx-2B engines from the 748. I'm sure that GE would like that too.
 
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767333ER
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Re: Would a complete refit to update the B757 be profitable/worth it?

Fri Sep 30, 2016 4:30 am

VSMUT wrote:
I doubt it would have mattered much. The problems with the 757 lie in the fact that it is too heavy and too big. Getting anything useful out of the 757 would have required a smaller A321/737NG sized (possibly slightly larger) wing, while reducing the weight of the fuselage, fitting new landing gear and so on. Once that was done, you would get a plane with the same performance limitations as the A321 (and none of the high performance that 757 fans love so much) - but at a much greater price and with no commonality with any other aircraft currently in service.
Nor do I think they would have beaten the A321LR to the market. The P&W GTF has only just entered service, and any earlier alternatives would have given the A321LR the ability to eventually leapfrog the 757 once it entered service.

The A321NEO and 737-9 have sold a combined 1700 aircraft. If the proposed new 757 was built, it would most likely have taken no more than 50% of those orders, or 850 aircraft. Realistically, the majority of orders would have come from the US3, amounting to no more than 300-400 aircraft, with only a dribble of orders from other customers. It would be even less if Boeing was still to offer the 737-900ER.
Those numbers are not impressive number at all, considering the development costs. A fraction of those development costs invested into the 737 would have given significantly more orders.

:)

How would downsizing the wing on any plane ever help? If you want to reduce weight, there are far better ways to do that. A smaller wing would just make it a joke. The A321 weighs less because it is smaller on every regard, not just wings. It's engines are far smaller and use way less fuel. Most of the A321's efficiency advantage over the 757 does not come from the wings. It's big wing is the only reason why it is useful anymore.

The point is they should have rewingged, and reeninged it along with slightly stretching it instead of making the 747-8. If they could have come up with the folding wingtip that would have helped too, but of course that wasn't on the table back then. You must remember too that a new 757 would be a MoM and it would be better than a wide body alternative.if Boeing had remade the 757 and had made a more capable 757-300 they would have outsold the 737-900/ER/9 which has sold quite poorly considering that that sector of the market is growing.
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DocLightning
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Re: Would a complete refit to update the B757 be profitable/worth it?

Fri Sep 30, 2016 4:32 am

LamboAston wrote:
The B757 currently has no 1:1 replacement (Don't say A321, they are smaller),


By two rows. So yeah, A321.

Deal with it.
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JetBuddy
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Re: Would a complete refit to update the B757 be profitable/worth it?

Fri Sep 30, 2016 4:49 am

I wonder how much more fuel efficient a RR Trent 553 or 556 derated to 43,000 lbf thrust will be compared to a RR RB211-535E4B at the same thrust rating. Plenty of A340-500s and -600s being retired now, most likely with engines that have lots of life left in them and no other current application. The Trent 500 is 2.5m in diameter, while the RB211 (757 version) has only a 1.88m diameter, so that might be a challenge.

Is there any commonality between the Trent 500 and RB211? Other than the RR logo.
 
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Re: Would a complete refit to update the B757 be profitable/worth it?

Fri Sep 30, 2016 5:14 am

JetBuddy wrote:
I wonder how much more fuel efficient a RR Trent 553 or 556 derated to 43,000 lbf thrust will be compared to a RR RB211-535E4B at the same thrust rating. Plenty of A340-500s and -600s being retired now, most likely with engines that have lots of life left in them and no other current application. The Trent 500 is 2.5m in diameter, while the RB211 (757 version) has only a 1.88m diameter, so that might be a challenge.

Is there any commonality between the Trent 500 and RB211? Other than the RR logo.


Yes. 500 is an improved 211. Weighs about the same.
 
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Re: Would a complete refit to update the B757 be profitable/worth it?

Fri Sep 30, 2016 9:31 am

767333ER wrote:
How would downsizing the wing on any plane ever help?


Big wing = more weight. Nobody needs the high performance of the 757 any more. Airlines want something with the performance of an A321, not a Harrier jump-jet. Less than 50 757s actually ply those long routes where range is of importance, the rest fly routes where range is less of importance. Even so, the A321LR with it's 60m2 smaller wing is still able to fly those few long routes at a much lower cost than a reengined and rewinged 757NEO would.


767333ER wrote:
If you want to reduce weight, there are far better ways to do that. A smaller wing would just make it a joke. The A321 weighs less because it is smaller on every regard, not just wings. It's engines are far smaller and use way less fuel. Most of the A321's efficiency advantage over the 757 does not come from the wings.


Everything would need to be reduced, it needs to lose at least 10 tons of weight to be competitive. Smaller wings, smaller horizontal stabilizers, smaller fin, smaller engines, 2-wheeled MLG and so on. The total weight would have to be reduced enough for the A321's engines (or a slightly uprated version of them) to be able to power it. And yes, it would indeed become "a joke" according to 757 fans, because one of the biggest things they love about that aircraft is the thing that most needs to go, the performance.

Any increase in passengers would have to come from "spaceflex" cabin improvements.

And yet, even if Boeing had succeed in doing so back when they did the 747-8, it would have pitted it directly against the already established in-production (hence low-risk and cheap) 737-900ER/9MAX and A321/A321NEO vying for orders from airlines that already had massive fleets of A32Xs and 737NGs.


767333ER wrote:
It's big wing is the only reason why it is useful anymore.


Useful? Every man and his dog is busy phasing the -200s out. In 5 years you will be lucky if even 50 are in service with passenger airlines. Only the "slow" production rates of Boeing and Airbus, and the even larger clot of even older MD-80s, is preventing the passenger airlines from getting rid of the 757-200s faster. Nobody needs the big wing - it's a relic from the days when most airports still lacked long runways.


:)
 
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JetBuddy
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Re: Would a complete refit to update the B757 be profitable/worth it?

Fri Sep 30, 2016 9:53 am

Varsity1 wrote:
JetBuddy wrote:
I wonder how much more fuel efficient a RR Trent 553 or 556 derated to 43,000 lbf thrust will be compared to a RR RB211-535E4B at the same thrust rating. Plenty of A340-500s and -600s being retired now, most likely with engines that have lots of life left in them and no other current application. The Trent 500 is 2.5m in diameter, while the RB211 (757 version) has only a 1.88m diameter, so that might be a challenge.

Is there any commonality between the Trent 500 and RB211? Other than the RR logo.


Yes. 500 is an improved 211. Weighs about the same.


Great! Shouldn't be that difficult technically to upgrade RR powered 757s to Trent 500s. Each A340-500/600 retired means 4 engines on the market with no other application. Some might have quite a few hours on them, but they'll have relatively few cycles. There's potential here. 757 Super 500 anyone? The real challenge would be certification, not that it would be difficult technically, but that it would be expensive.

Anyone interested in such an upgrade would most likely be freighter companies who already operate 757 and might like to extend the life of their planes with another decade or two.
 
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Re: Would a complete refit to update the B757 be profitable/worth it?

Fri Sep 30, 2016 1:01 pm

The 757 will not see any help come its way. Too many are being sent to the desert, and the direct replacement already exists for these aging frames; 321LR. Unlike the 757, it doesn't have to be an alien in an existing fleet. It's not worth putting any more money in to improvements upon it.

The next step is the successor, hopefully in the form of the >5500NM NSA.
 
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767333ER
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Re: Would a complete refit to update the B757 be profitable/worth it?

Sun Oct 02, 2016 4:50 am

VSMUT wrote:
Big wing = more weight. Nobody needs the high performance of the 757 any more. Airlines want something with the performance of an A321, not a Harrier jump-jet. Less than 50 757s actually ply those long routes where range is of importance, the rest fly routes where range is less of importance. Even so, the A321LR with it's 60m2 smaller wing is still able to fly those few long routes at a much lower cost than a reengined and rewinged 757NEO would.


Anymore? If airlines don't need it now, they never did. Engineers weren't dumb back when they designed the 757. If it is smarter to put an A321 sized wing on it , they would have done that. If airlines don't need the big wing today, there is no reason why they would have needed it back then. If it was better to have an excessively loaded and undersized wing like the A321 has, every plane would have that; moreover, the A321 would never have had its wing area increased over the A320. The A320 would have had a smaller wing. The 737 would have a smaller wing. When they made the new wing for the 737NG it would have been smaller. The same goes for the 777X, CRJ-700, etc. if you want to make a wing lighter, you don't reduce its capability to produce lift. You can simplify the structures like the flaps for example or change the built material. You can reduce drag/increase lift by redesigning a wing or replacing it with a new one of better design, but never has a plane received a smaller wing when it has been given a new one.

Of course the A321 would be more economical still which is why the 757 would need to be stretched. Even then, I'm not saying it would definitely be feasible, but there was a chance if it worked with the 737NG.

VSMUT wrote:
Everything would need to be reduced, it needs to lose at least 10 tons of weight to be competitive. Smaller wings, smaller horizontal stabilizers, smaller fin, smaller engines, 2-wheeled MLG and so on. The total weight would have to be reduced enough for the A321's engines (or a slightly uprated version of them) to be able to power it. And yes, it would indeed become "a joke" according to 757 fans, because one of the biggest things they love about that aircraft is the thing that most needs to go, the performance.

Any increase in passengers would have to come from "spaceflex" cabin improvements.

And yet, even if Boeing had succeed in doing so back when they did the 747-8, it would have pitted it directly against the already established in-production (hence low-risk and cheap) 737-900ER/9MAX and A321/A321NEO vying for orders from airlines that already had massive fleets of A32Xs and 737NGs.


Smaller stabilizers could be achieved with fly-by-wire which would also save weight by itself. A single axle MLG saves weight, but is already suboptimal for the A321 and 737-900. Anything bigger needs the extra axle. Lighter engines are nice, but newer engines are heavier than previous generation. The PW1100G is significantly heavier than the CFM56-5B, but is more efficient. The 757 has some weight problems that would need to justified by making it bigger, but wing size isn't one of them. Material/design though, yes.

Back in the time of the 747-8, the A321 wasn't nearly as popular as it is today and the 737-900 was selling poorly as always. Also, the A321neo and 737-9 didn't nearly exist yet back then. Commonality would be a problem, but wouldn't be such an issue for larger customers.

VSMUT wrote:
Useful? Every man and his dog is busy phasing the -200s out. In 5 years you will be lucky if even 50 are in service with passenger airlines. Only the "slow" production rates of Boeing and Airbus, and the even larger clot of even older MD-80s, is preventing the passenger airlines from getting rid of the 757-200s faster. Nobody needs the big wing - it's a relic from the days when most airports still lacked long runways.
:)


If airports lacked long enough runways, how did planes older planes like the 727 with worse performance than the 757 work just fine and why would they have needed to make the plane specifically good at performance to the point where it supposedly hurts it's efficiency?

Yes the 757 is over weight and antiquated, but they could have done to it what they did to the 737. Make it bigger and give it new wings and new engines (not available now of course). A 757 improvement is not feasible in any way now, but might have been about 10 years ago if an engine had existed (would have if Boeing asked for one).
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DocLightning
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Re: Would a complete refit to update the B757 be profitable/worth it?

Sun Oct 02, 2016 6:27 am

A word about 1:1 replacements. There has *never* been a 1:1 replacement. The 707 had no 1:1 replacement, nor did the 727, 747, 757, 767, or the 772/77W. There is no 1:1 replacement for the DC-9, DC-10, or MD-11. There is no 1:1 replacement for any of the A300/A310 family. The only 1:1 replacements have been within the same type (73G replacing 733, etc.). As the market changes, the size and shape of aircraft needed to fit it changes.
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crazyplane1234
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Re: Would a complete refit to update the B757 be profitable/worth it?

Sun Oct 02, 2016 12:45 pm

DocLightning wrote:
A word about 1:1 replacements. There has *never* been a 1:1 replacement. The 707 had no 1:1 replacement, nor did the 727, 747, 757, 767, or the 772/77W. There is no 1:1 replacement for the DC-9, DC-10, or MD-11. There is no 1:1 replacement for any of the A300/A310 family. The only 1:1 replacements have been within the same type (73G replacing 733, etc.). As the market changes, the size and shape of aircraft needed to fit it changes.

I always thought that slightly larger aircraft could be considered 1:1 replacements. (Eg: A332 replacing 763)
 
baqnav
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Re: Would a complete refit to update the B757 be profitable/worth it?

Mon Oct 03, 2016 5:24 am

No
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caverunner17
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Re: Would a complete refit to update the B757 be profitable/worth it?

Mon Oct 03, 2016 5:45 am

DocLightning wrote:
A word about 1:1 replacements. There has *never* been a 1:1 replacement. The 707 had no 1:1 replacement, nor did the 727, 747, 757, 767, or the 772/77W. There is no 1:1 replacement for the DC-9, DC-10, or MD-11. There is no 1:1 replacement for any of the A300/A310 family. The only 1:1 replacements have been within the same type (73G replacing 733, etc.). As the market changes, the size and shape of aircraft needed to fit it changes.

I disagree.

The 777-200ER replaced many DC10/MD11's at most airlines with very similar capacities

The A350 is replacing many 777's at airlines (the -900 replacing the 772 and the -1000 replacing 77W's). It's very close to 1:1

Similarly, I believe the 779 has the same general capacity as the 747-400 which is what I assume LH will be using for their 744 replacement.

The number of engines and the range may increase a little with newer models, but there has been plenty of 1:1(ish) replacements.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Would a complete refit to update the B757 be profitable/worth it?

Mon Oct 03, 2016 10:55 am

Anymore? If airlines don't need it now, they never did. Engineers weren't dumb back when they designed the 757. If it is smarter to put an A321 sized wing on it , they would have done that.

The design work was being done in the late 70s, in the era of the mainframe computer. Personally, I think these days engineers are able to take advantage of far deeper market studies and computer similations to analyze what is needed to satisfy the requirements the customers have, and if the engineers on the 757 project had access to similar resources the 757 would look a lot more like the A321 than the actual 757.
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garpd
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Re: Would a complete refit to update the B757 be profitable/worth it?

Mon Oct 03, 2016 11:27 am

Revelation wrote:
...and if the engineers on the 757 project had access to similar resources the 757 would look a lot more like the A321 than the actual 757.


I disagree. There are plenty documentaries and lots of literature that will show you that the 757 answered the requests from about a dozen airlines. It came out exactly as required, designed and expected for it's day. It sold in numbers that were expected at the time. The Industry was smaller and had entirely different needs than it does today. Simply said, the 757 is a product of a bygone era. You cannot really compare its design and development to that of the A321 which came much later into a changing industry.
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Re: Would a complete refit to update the B757 be profitable/worth it?

Mon Oct 03, 2016 12:27 pm

garpd wrote:
Revelation wrote:
I disagree. There are plenty documentaries and lots of literature that will show you that the 757 answered the requests from about a dozen airlines.


I concurr. It is due to different scope and not improved design methodology.

The A320 family ( including the A321) was designed for a different OEW/payload/fuel distribution.

When the 757 was new the A320 family was much shorter ranged.

The 757 has the structure to carry comparatively more fuel per payload mass.
This turns it into a heavy frame for the available useful payload.
( Its structure weight is OK for the combined payload ( paying and fuel )

After your basic design is fixed you get most of your improvements from engine sfc gains.
With up to date engine tech ( lets assume that it is available for the required thrust class )
the 757 today would be a 5..6000nm ranged plane. and competitive.

It would actually be interesting to look at "nude structure weight" in relation to MTOW over the airframe generations.
( Today's frames are saddled with additional dead weight like IFE.)
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VSMUT
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Re: Would a complete refit to update the B757 be profitable/worth it?

Mon Oct 03, 2016 2:01 pm

767333ER wrote:
Anymore? If airlines don't need it now, they never did. If it is smarter to put an A321 sized wing on it , they would have done that. If airlines don't need the big wing today, there is no reason why they would have needed it back then.


The world has changed. Runways of today are much longer than the runways of the 1970s, and wings have been improved too.


767333ER wrote:
If it was better to have an excessively loaded and undersized wing like the A321 has, every plane would have that;

767333ER wrote:
A single axle MLG saves weight, but is already suboptimal for the A321 and 737-900.


If an "excessively loaded and undersized" wing and single axle MLG manages to sell 4000 aircraft, then yes, every aircraft in that size category should feature an excessively loaded and undersized wing and single axle MLG like the A321 and 737-900.
Even the completely new MC-21 features a wing that is only marginally bigger than the A320's, as well as a single axle MLG, and that aircraft has been designed from the outset as a 230 seater.


767333ER wrote:
moreover, the A321 would never have had its wing area increased over the A320.


Yes, by something like 4 square meters. The 757's wing is 60 square meters bigger :roll:


767333ER wrote:
The A320 would have had a smaller wing. The 737 would have a smaller wing. When they made the new wing for the 737NG it would have been smaller. The same goes for the 777X, CRJ-700, etc.


Those types didn't feature massively oversized wings to begin with. The 737 classic had a rather small wing, while the CRJ was based on an 8-seat business jet.


767333ER wrote:
but never has a plane received a smaller wing when it has been given a new one.


Most likely because the 757 differs from all other aircraft in that it had a significantly larger wing from the beginning ;)


767333ER wrote:
Lighter engines are nice, but newer engines are heavier than previous generation. The PW1100G is significantly heavier than the CFM56-5B, but is more efficient.


? :| The PW1100G weighs 500 kg less than any of the 757's engines. That's a combined saving of 1 ton.


767333ER wrote:
If airports lacked long enough runways, how did planes older planes like the 727 with worse performance than the 757 work just fine and why would they have needed to make the plane specifically good at performance to the point where it supposedly hurts it's efficiency?


The 727 was actually a rather hot airplane for it's time. It (like the 757) should be compared with aircraft like the DC-8 and 707.


And finally, you can't keep stretching a design to success. Having a low CASM is completely irrelevant if the customers don't believe they can fill plane of that size. That can be seen with the 777-9 and the 757-300.

:)
 
DTWPurserBoy
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Re: Would a complete refit to update the B757 be profitable/worth it?

Mon Oct 03, 2016 2:18 pm

One problem is that many 757's are simply running out of cycles and/or airframe hours. Delta is scrapping a number of them.

Another thing to remember is that airplanes are designed around engines, not the other way around.

A clean sheet airplane made of composites with a twin aisle for rapid turnarounds is what the industry wants. Boeing has broadly hinted at that. But it would not be ready until the 2023-2024 time frame.
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garpd
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Re: Would a complete refit to update the B757 be profitable/worth it?

Mon Oct 03, 2016 2:33 pm

DTWPurserBoy wrote:
One problem is that many 757's are simply running out of cycles and/or airframe hours..


Spot on. That is the ultimate limiting factor. Sometimes an extreme overhaul where lots of components are replaced and the fuselage thoroughly overhauled can add some cycles or hours to a frame. But it has to be worth it. I do not think many 757s have enough life left to make such an overhaul worth it.

As for planes designed around engines, I believe the 757 is an exception to that case. It was developed alongside the 767 and inherited that programs engines.
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maxpower1954
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Re: Would a complete refit to update the B757 be profitable/worth it?

Mon Oct 03, 2016 6:15 pm

As for planes designed around engines, I believe the 757 is an exception to that case. It was developed alongside the 767 and inherited that programs engines.

That's incorrect. The 757 was designed initially for the RB-211 and the 767 for the CF-6.
 
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Re: Would a complete refit to update the B757 be profitable/worth it?

Mon Oct 03, 2016 7:18 pm

caverunner17 wrote:

The 777-200ER replaced many DC10/MD11's at most airlines with very similar capacities

The A350 is replacing many 777's at airlines (the -900 replacing the 772 and the -1000 replacing 77W's). It's very close to 1:1

Similarly, I believe the 779 has the same general capacity as the 747-400 which is what I assume LH will be using for their 744 replacement.


The OP stated that the A321LR isn't a 1:1 replacement to the 752 because it is (two rows) smaller. So by that definition, a 1:1 has to have identical payload. Not "close," but identical.
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caverunner17
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Re: Would a complete refit to update the B757 be profitable/worth it?

Mon Oct 03, 2016 7:43 pm

DocLightning wrote:
caverunner17 wrote:

The 777-200ER replaced many DC10/MD11's at most airlines with very similar capacities

The A350 is replacing many 777's at airlines (the -900 replacing the 772 and the -1000 replacing 77W's). It's very close to 1:1

Similarly, I believe the 779 has the same general capacity as the 747-400 which is what I assume LH will be using for their 744 replacement.


The OP stated that the A321LR isn't a 1:1 replacement to the 752 because it is (two rows) smaller. So by that definition, a 1:1 has to have identical payload. Not "close," but identical.

I just don't see that though. AA's A321 has 7 less pax than their domestic 752, but has 2 more F and 2 more Y+ seats, so you could gain back potentially 2-3 more seats if they were Y rows like in the 752, making it a 4-5 pax difference. That can easily be explained by galley layout, etc. Heck, remove the mid-cabin bathroom in the A321 and have the same Y+ and F seats and it's a 2 person difference.

It's just YMMV on the configurations. It's hard to compare directly because of it. QR and SQ's A350's have similar capacity as their 777-200's but the cabin is 1-2-1 and premium economy vs 2-2-2 and no premium economy or more business and less economy etc. If you're within a few pax of each other, I'd say it's a 1:1.

The only thing the A321 can't do (yet) is TATL flights consistently. Even the LR variant may struggle on some of the longer flights, but that's yet to be known.
 
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DocLightning
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Re: Would a complete refit to update the B757 be profitable/worth it?

Wed Oct 05, 2016 5:20 am

caverunner17 wrote:
The only thing the A321 can't do (yet) is TATL flights consistently. Even the LR variant may struggle on some of the longer flights, but that's yet to be known.



The LR will have a bit more range than the 752. It will carry about 95% of the payload. The major disadvantages are smaller hold volume owing to the ACTs and a lower initial cruising altitude owing to a smaller wing.
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Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos