DC1979
Topic Author
Posts: 34
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 1:37 am

Air Canada expansion including Mumbai, Taipei, Nagoya and Algiers

Wed Sep 28, 2016 12:20 pm

Nice expansion announced by Air Canada

http://aircanada.mediaroom.com/index.php?s=43&item=1064
 
Someone83
Posts: 4270
Joined: Sun Sep 17, 2006 5:47 pm

Re: Air Canada expansion including Mumbai, Taipei, Nagoya and Algiers

Wed Sep 28, 2016 12:27 pm

Will any routes be cut next summer for Rouge to have this expansion, or is it a net expansion and they are getting more 767s?
 
Dominion301
Posts: 2142
Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2016 1:48 pm

Re: Air Canada expansion including Mumbai, Taipei, Nagoya and Algiers

Wed Sep 28, 2016 12:38 pm

YVR-NGO & YVR-TPE those are old CP routes that were dropped over a decade ago and are now back.

YUL-MRS is a direct shot at TS. AC has room to add a couple more 763s to Rouge before they're maxed out.

On the Rouge thread, someone successfully called YYZ-TXL.
 
atal17
Posts: 444
Joined: Wed Sep 17, 2014 5:56 am

Re: Air Canada expansion including Mumbai, Taipei, Nagoya and Algiers

Wed Sep 28, 2016 12:57 pm

Wow! First Toronto-Delhi, then Vancouver-Delhi and now Toronto-Mumbai!

Air Canada is on a roll here!
 
User avatar
Ytraveller
Posts: 1287
Joined: Tue Jul 09, 2013 3:47 pm

Re: Air Canada expansion including Mumbai, Taipei, Nagoya and Algiers

Wed Sep 28, 2016 1:02 pm

atal17 wrote:
Wow! First Toronto-Delhi, then Vancouver-Delhi and now Toronto-Mumbai!

Air Canada is on a roll here!

Certainly I'm excited to see them expand in India, but I doubt any of this would be possible were EK/QR/EY flying daily into YYZ.
 
atal17
Posts: 444
Joined: Wed Sep 17, 2014 5:56 am

Re: Air Canada expansion including Mumbai, Taipei, Nagoya and Algiers

Wed Sep 28, 2016 1:07 pm

Ytraveller wrote:
atal17 wrote:
Wow! First Toronto-Delhi, then Vancouver-Delhi and now Toronto-Mumbai!

Air Canada is on a roll here!

Certainly I'm excited to see them expand in India, but I doubt any of this would be possible were EK/QR/EY flying daily into YYZ.


I would agree if this was a Delhi service, but I think their Mumbai service will be primarily connections to and from the USA.
 
Thenoflyzone
Posts: 2815
Joined: Sun Jan 07, 2001 4:42 am

Re: Air Canada expansion including Mumbai, Taipei, Nagoya and Algiers

Wed Sep 28, 2016 1:35 pm

Someone83 wrote:
Will any routes be cut next summer for Rouge to have this expansion, or is it a net expansion and they are getting more 767s?


All expansion. Rouge is getting a handful of 767s next year.
us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
 
CaliguyNYC
Posts: 1070
Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2016 7:27 pm

Re: Air Canada expansion including Mumbai, Taipei, Nagoya and Algiers

Wed Sep 28, 2016 1:47 pm

YYZ-BOM - great add, and I totally feel the flight would not have happened if the ME3 flew daily. I think AC will get some good premium seats fill for the nonstop as well as some in econ with the rest connections. People forget that YYZ is either the largest or second largest city with people of Indian decent. Other than the convenience of a nonstop, the other benefit is the arrival time of 9:30pm. I know my family is over the midnight / 1am arrival (for get the 2/3am some airlines have).
 
Dominion301
Posts: 2142
Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2016 1:48 pm

Re: Air Canada expansion including Mumbai, Taipei, Nagoya and Algiers

Wed Sep 28, 2016 1:50 pm

Thenoflyzone wrote:
Someone83 wrote:
Will any routes be cut next summer for Rouge to have this expansion, or is it a net expansion and they are getting more 767s?


All expansion. Rouge is getting a handful of 767s next year.


I wonder whether AC will be securing some 2nd hand 767s or if they'll all be mainline transfers?
 
a380787
Posts: 4573
Joined: Tue Jul 09, 2013 4:38 pm

Re: Air Canada expansion including Mumbai, Taipei, Nagoya and Algiers

Wed Sep 28, 2016 1:52 pm

atal17 wrote:
Wow! First Toronto-Delhi, then Vancouver-Delhi and now Toronto-Mumbai!

Air Canada is on a roll here!


Precisely. THAT'S the correct way to compete against ME3, not constantly wondering why there's not enough cheese to go with all the whine.

So as of this service announcement, the combination of 3 Star carriers (AC, AI, UA) can get you nonstop between India and these places in North America (some seasonal) :

DEL - NYC (JFK+EWR), ORD, SFO, YYZ, YVR
BOM - NYC (EWR), YYZ
 
User avatar
Ytraveller
Posts: 1287
Joined: Tue Jul 09, 2013 3:47 pm

Re: Air Canada expansion including Mumbai, Taipei, Nagoya and Algiers

Wed Sep 28, 2016 1:54 pm

a380787 wrote:
Precisely. THAT'S the correct way to compete against ME3, not constantly wondering why there's not enough cheese to go with all the whine.

Don't forget that the Canadian government has limited the ME3's growth in the country, unlike the situation in the US.
 
atal17
Posts: 444
Joined: Wed Sep 17, 2014 5:56 am

Re: Air Canada expansion including Mumbai, Taipei, Nagoya and Algiers

Wed Sep 28, 2016 2:42 pm

Ytraveller wrote:
a380787 wrote:
Precisely. THAT'S the correct way to compete against ME3, not constantly wondering why there's not enough cheese to go with all the whine.

Don't forget that the Canadian government has limited the ME3's growth in the country, unlike the situation in the US.


As I've made the point before - I don't think Mumbai-Toronto can be solely filled be O/D feed because, IIRC, Canada's Indian immigrant population has North Indians outnumbering South Indians by quite a bit.

Therefore, the flight would need plenty of crossborder traffic to support it, and that's where the ME3 competition will come in....
 
a380787
Posts: 4573
Joined: Tue Jul 09, 2013 4:38 pm

Re: Air Canada expansion including Mumbai, Taipei, Nagoya and Algiers

Wed Sep 28, 2016 2:49 pm

atal17 wrote:
Ytraveller wrote:
a380787 wrote:
Precisely. THAT'S the correct way to compete against ME3, not constantly wondering why there's not enough cheese to go with all the whine.

Don't forget that the Canadian government has limited the ME3's growth in the country, unlike the situation in the US.


As I've made the point before - I don't think Mumbai-Toronto can be solely filled be O/D feed because, IIRC, Canada's Indian immigrant population has North Indians outnumbering South Indians by quite a bit.

Therefore, the flight would need plenty of crossborder traffic to support it, and that's where the ME3 competition will come in....


Air India has a sizable focus city at BOM, so there's some sort of feed at both ends of the route.
 
User avatar
readytotaxi
Posts: 6522
Joined: Mon Dec 11, 2006 2:09 am

Re: Air Canada expansion including Mumbai, Taipei, Nagoya and Algiers

Wed Sep 28, 2016 2:51 pm

Algiers ? Is there a sizeable population in Canada or business links?
you don't get a second chance to make a first impression!
Growing older, but not up.
 
Thenoflyzone
Posts: 2815
Joined: Sun Jan 07, 2001 4:42 am

Re: Air Canada expansion including Mumbai, Taipei, Nagoya and Algiers

Wed Sep 28, 2016 3:08 pm

readytotaxi wrote:
Algiers ? Is there a sizeable population in Canada or business links?


YUL has a large Algerian community.

Air Algeria already flies YUL-ALG, up to 9 or 10x weekly during peak summer season.
us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
 
User avatar
LAX772LR
Posts: 12322
Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2014 11:06 pm

Re: Air Canada expansion including Mumbai, Taipei, Nagoya and Algiers

Wed Sep 28, 2016 4:29 pm

a380787 wrote:
THAT'S the correct way to compete against ME3

What is? Having government artificially limit the ME3's access?
...isn't that exactly what DL and the US3 have been trying to do?
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
User avatar
VCEflyboy
Posts: 1237
Joined: Tue Jun 24, 2014 7:23 pm

Re: Air Canada expansion including Mumbai, Taipei, Nagoya and Algiers

Wed Sep 28, 2016 5:06 pm

Good luck with TPE. China Airlines and EVA both fill their 747 flights for peanuts. CI has great service and EVA has *A benefits. Not sure what AC can bring to the table.
 
Whiteguy
Posts: 1354
Joined: Sat Nov 29, 2003 6:11 am

Re: Air Canada expansion including Mumbai, Taipei, Nagoya and Algiers

Wed Sep 28, 2016 5:21 pm

Dominion301 wrote:
Thenoflyzone wrote:
Someone83 wrote:
Will any routes be cut next summer for Rouge to have this expansion, or is it a net expansion and they are getting more 767s?


All expansion. Rouge is getting a handful of 767s next year.


I wonder whether AC will be securing some 2nd hand 767s or if they'll all be mainline transfers?


Could be a mix....the latest 2016 fleet plan showed 15 B763s at AC by end of the year and 19 at Rouge. For 2017 it's increased to 25 at Rouge and AC will have 0-10, the B763s and A333s are part of AC swing capacity which can quickly be reduced if required.
 
hayzel777
Posts: 614
Joined: Wed Mar 16, 2016 3:18 am

Re: Air Canada expansion including Mumbai, Taipei, Nagoya and Algiers

Wed Sep 28, 2016 5:34 pm

VCEflyboy wrote:
Good luck with TPE. China Airlines and EVA both fill their 747 flights for peanuts. CI has great service and EVA has *A benefits. Not sure what AC can bring to the table.


EVA will be shifting to 777 ops for YVR. It offers great service too.
 
User avatar
RL777
Posts: 649
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2016 1:43 am

Re: Air Canada expansion including Mumbai, Taipei, Nagoya and Algiers

Wed Sep 28, 2016 5:38 pm

VCEflyboy wrote:
Good luck with TPE. China Airlines and EVA both fill their 747 flights for peanuts. CI has great service and EVA has *A benefits. Not sure what AC can bring to the table.


I could see the business case if they were operating the route with one of their HD 77Ws, but I don't see how they can compete with a 789. BR will be switching YVR to a 77W soon as well.
 
flyyul
Posts: 4438
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2000 11:25 am

Re: Air Canada expansion including Mumbai, Taipei, Nagoya and Algiers

Wed Sep 28, 2016 5:48 pm

VCEflyboy wrote:
Good luck with TPE. China Airlines and EVA both fill their 747 flights for peanuts. CI has great service and EVA has *A benefits. Not sure what AC can bring to the table.


Do you have anything nice or constructive to say? You hate Rouge, dislike Air Canada's new route selection etc.
 
a380787
Posts: 4573
Joined: Tue Jul 09, 2013 4:38 pm

Re: Air Canada expansion including Mumbai, Taipei, Nagoya and Algiers

Wed Sep 28, 2016 6:29 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
a380787 wrote:
THAT'S the correct way to compete against ME3

What is? Having government artificially limit the ME3's access?
...isn't that exactly what DL and the US3 have been trying to do?


I meant launching nonstops that bypass hubs in the middle and take people directly where they want to go. That's also a key reason how UA's India nonstops survive (or possibly even thrive, although there's no concrete public data to argue either direction) despite massive ME3 capacity right across the river at JFK.

But if we want to be discussing ME3 access in Canada, I recall it was EK's greed that led them to ignore the 6x weekly that was initially on the plate for the entirety of UAE (their position could be characterized as "daily or nothing"). EY scooped in with a gamble of 3x back in 2005, first via BRU then went nonstop. The rest is history.

Since many like to portray Ottawa as the evil protectionist godzilla hell bent on keeping their Montreal overlords happy, let's remember that UAE wasn't playing nice either. They publicly threatened to kick Canada out of their military bases in 2010 in an attempt to gain leverage at the route authority table. I'd say that move definitely backfired.

Yes, the econ fare VFR is definitely losing out on more competitive fares to go home, but on the flip side, the business travelers now have 3 different Canada-India nonstop routes that most likely won't ever materialize if ME3 had unfettered access. Not one, three.
 
Whiteguy
Posts: 1354
Joined: Sat Nov 29, 2003 6:11 am

Re: Air Canada expansion including Mumbai, Taipei, Nagoya and Algiers

Wed Sep 28, 2016 6:37 pm

a380787 wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
a380787 wrote:
THAT'S the correct way to compete against ME3

What is? Having government artificially limit the ME3's access?
...isn't that exactly what DL and the US3 have been trying to do?



But if we want to be discussing ME3 access in Canada, I recall it was EK's greed that led them to ignore the 6x weekly that was initially on the plate for the entirety of UAE (their position could be characterized as "daily or nothing"). EY scooped in with a gamble of 3x back in 2005, first via BRU then went nonstop. The rest is history.

Since many like to portray Ottawa as the evil protectionist godzilla hell bent on keeping their Montreal overlords happy, let's remember that UAE wasn't playing nice either. They publicly threatened to kick Canada out of their military bases in 2010 in an attempt to gain leverage at the route authority table. I'd say that move definitely backfired.

Yes, the econ fare VFR is definitely losing out on more competitive fares to go home, but on the flip side, the business travelers now have 3 different Canada-India nonstop routes that most likely won't ever materialize if ME3 had unfettered access. Not one, three.


Per the agreement, EK could not fly more than 3 flights per week.....that's why EY has the other 3. Same goes on the Canadian side, 1 airline can only operate 3 flights per week. To operate 6 flights per week it would have to be a second airline, like WS for example...
 
User avatar
GE9X
Posts: 268
Joined: Mon Jun 30, 2014 12:13 am

Re: Air Canada expansion including Mumbai, Taipei, Nagoya and Algiers

Wed Sep 28, 2016 6:42 pm

readytotaxi wrote:
Algiers ? Is there a sizeable population in Canada or business links?

As the French-speaking anchor of the New World, Montreal is the primary gateway into North America for Moroccans, Algerians, Tunisians, all three of whom have substantial French-speaking populations and history. According to the 2006 census (a long, long time ago when it comes to immigration) there were 50,000 Algerians and 33,000 Moroccans in the city, numbers that have kept growing at a fast pace since. Both Royal Air Maroc and Air Algérie already operate daily flights to Montreal, and RAM has been in the market for decades. YUL is Air Algérie's only destination in North America, and Royal Air Maroc's largest of two destinations, ahead of New York JFK. The only reason Air Canada has avoided these markets in the past is because of the low yields and the lack of premium demand--but Rouge solves that problem.
 
User avatar
GE9X
Posts: 268
Joined: Mon Jun 30, 2014 12:13 am

Re: Air Canada expansion including Mumbai, Taipei, Nagoya and Algiers

Wed Sep 28, 2016 6:48 pm

a380787 wrote:
Since many like to portray Ottawa as the evil protectionist godzilla hell bent on keeping their Montreal overlords happy, let's remember that UAE wasn't playing nice either. They publicly threatened to kick Canada out of their military bases in 2010 in an attempt to gain leverage at the route authority table. I'd say that move definitely backfired.


They didn't just threaten to close Camp Mirage, they actually did it, albeit indirectly. The airbase was the primary projection facility for Canadian troops and supplies headed to and from Afghanistan and wasn't scheduled to be closed before the 2011 withdrawal.
 
1900Driver
Posts: 136
Joined: Fri Apr 06, 2012 3:17 pm

Re: Air Canada expansion including Mumbai, Taipei, Nagoya and Algiers

Wed Sep 28, 2016 7:20 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
a380787 wrote:
THAT'S the correct way to compete against ME3

What is? Having government artificially limit the ME3's access?
...isn't that exactly what DL and the US3 have been trying to do?


C'mon seriously, let's put an end to this! The current bilaterals were negotiated between the two countries. If the Canadian government did not honour it's part of the framework, then I would inclined to agree with you. The US negotiated open skies, & that's the reality the US3 have to live with.

Please stay on topic & stick to credible facts. Refrain from making loaded statements.

Thank you :)
 
1900Driver
Posts: 136
Joined: Fri Apr 06, 2012 3:17 pm

Re: Air Canada expansion including Mumbai, Taipei, Nagoya and Algiers

Wed Sep 28, 2016 7:29 pm

RL777 wrote:
VCEflyboy wrote:
Good luck with TPE. China Airlines and EVA both fill their 747 flights for peanuts. CI has great service and EVA has *A benefits. Not sure what AC can bring to the table.


I could see the business case if they were operating the route with one of their HD 77Ws, but I don't see how they can compete with a 789. BR will be switching YVR to a 77W soon as well.


I don't see why that would be the case? Wouldn't allocating a higher unit cost aircraft such as a 777 be a risker proposition then simply starting with a 789? Perhaps someone on the forum can shed more light on this?
 
Viscount724
Posts: 19316
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

Re: Air Canada expansion including Mumbai, Taipei, Nagoya and Algiers

Wed Sep 28, 2016 7:47 pm

GE9X wrote:
readytotaxi wrote:
Algiers ? Is there a sizeable population in Canada or business links?

As the French-speaking anchor of the New World, Montreal is the primary gateway into North America for Moroccans, Algerians, Tunisians, all three of whom have substantial French-speaking populations and history. According to the 2006 census (a long, long time ago when it comes to immigration) there were 50,000 Algerians and 33,000 Moroccans in the city, numbers that have kept growing at a fast pace since. Both Royal Air Maroc and Air Algérie already operate daily flights to Montreal, and RAM has been in the market for decades. YUL is Air Algérie's only destination in North America, and Royal Air Maroc's largest of two destinations, ahead of New York JFK. The only reason Air Canada has avoided these markets in the past is because of the low yields and the lack of premium demand--but Rouge solves that problem.


AH is currently 4 x week YUL-ALG, not daily. You also didn't mention Tunisair which operates 2 x week YUL-TUN. Montreal is the only city in North America with direct service to both Algeria and Tunisia.
 
flyyul
Posts: 4438
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2000 11:25 am

Re: Air Canada expansion including Mumbai, Taipei, Nagoya and Algiers

Wed Sep 28, 2016 8:09 pm

Viscount724 wrote:
GE9X wrote:
readytotaxi wrote:
Algiers ? Is there a sizeable population in Canada or business links?

As the French-speaking anchor of the New World, Montreal is the primary gateway into North America for Moroccans, Algerians, Tunisians, all three of whom have substantial French-speaking populations and history. According to the 2006 census (a long, long time ago when it comes to immigration) there were 50,000 Algerians and 33,000 Moroccans in the city, numbers that have kept growing at a fast pace since. Both Royal Air Maroc and Air Algérie already operate daily flights to Montreal, and RAM has been in the market for decades. YUL is Air Algérie's only destination in North America, and Royal Air Maroc's largest of two destinations, ahead of New York JFK. The only reason Air Canada has avoided these markets in the past is because of the low yields and the lack of premium demand--but Rouge solves that problem.


AH is currently 4 x week YUL-ALG, not daily. You also didn't mention Tunisair which operates 2 x week YUL-TUN. Montreal is the only city in North America with direct service to both Algeria and Tunisia.


Air Algerie flew 8 weekly frequencies last summer peak (2016).
 
B752OS
Posts: 1158
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 4:05 am

Re: Air Canada expansion including Mumbai, Taipei, Nagoya and Algiers

Wed Sep 28, 2016 8:14 pm

Viscount724 wrote:
GE9X wrote:
readytotaxi wrote:
Algiers ? Is there a sizeable population in Canada or business links?

As the French-speaking anchor of the New World, Montreal is the primary gateway into North America for Moroccans, Algerians, Tunisians, all three of whom have substantial French-speaking populations and history. According to the 2006 census (a long, long time ago when it comes to immigration) there were 50,000 Algerians and 33,000 Moroccans in the city, numbers that have kept growing at a fast pace since. Both Royal Air Maroc and Air Algérie already operate daily flights to Montreal, and RAM has been in the market for decades. YUL is Air Algérie's only destination in North America, and Royal Air Maroc's largest of two destinations, ahead of New York JFK. The only reason Air Canada has avoided these markets in the past is because of the low yields and the lack of premium demand--but Rouge solves that problem.


AH is currently 4 x week YUL-ALG, not daily. You also didn't mention Tunisair which operates 2 x week YUL-TUN. Montreal is the only city in North America with direct service to both Algeria and Tunisia.


Is that year round? 4 x weekly YUL-ALG year round? 2 x weekly YUL-TUN year round?
 
User avatar
LAX772LR
Posts: 12322
Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2014 11:06 pm

Re: Air Canada expansion including Mumbai, Taipei, Nagoya and Algiers

Wed Sep 28, 2016 8:25 pm

1900Driver wrote:
C'mon seriously, let's put an end to this! The current bilaterals were negotiated between the two countries. If the Canadian government did not honour it's part of the framework, then I would inclined to agree with you. The US negotiated open skies, & that's the reality the US3 have to live with.

Please stay on topic & stick to credible facts. Refrain from making loaded statements.

Not sure what you're complaining about, as there's nothing "loaded" about anything said.... it's a factual statement:
Canada limits the amount of competing the ME3 can do within that country's market.

There's no blame assignment, and quite frankly, I think Canada did the smart thing.

But the fact remains, using AC as an example of how anyone else should compete against the ME3 is laughable, as the ME3 are governmentally limited as to how much capacity they can throw into AC's markets; whereas other airlines wouldn't have (as much of) that distinct artificially-imposed advantage in their dealing with the ME3.

There's no way around that.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
nname
Posts: 28
Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2016 6:53 pm

Re: Air Canada expansion including Mumbai, Taipei, Nagoya and Algiers

Wed Sep 28, 2016 8:29 pm

VCEflyboy wrote:
Good luck with TPE. China Airlines and EVA both fill their 747 flights for peanuts. CI has great service and EVA has *A benefits. Not sure what AC can bring to the table.


The TPE-YVR and TPE-YYZ route consistently have LF in the low- to mid-90s, even higher during peak season. BR wanted daily or more for both routes, but they are limited to 5x weekly each due to bilateral restriction. Even more problem as BR will be replacing their 744 with 77W for the YVR route most likely in 2017. As BR is being forced to reduce capacity by more than 10% on a route that gets 98-99% LF for the busy months, there's the opportunity for AC.
 
n272wa
Posts: 687
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2007 6:19 am

Re: Air Canada expansion including Mumbai, Taipei, Nagoya and Algiers

Wed Sep 28, 2016 8:37 pm

I thought someone previously mentioned that YVR-MAN was apparently going to be announced?
 
Viscount724
Posts: 19316
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

Re: Air Canada expansion including Mumbai, Taipei, Nagoya and Algiers

Wed Sep 28, 2016 8:41 pm

B752OS wrote:
Viscount724 wrote:
GE9X wrote:
As the French-speaking anchor of the New World, Montreal is the primary gateway into North America for Moroccans, Algerians, Tunisians, all three of whom have substantial French-speaking populations and history. According to the 2006 census (a long, long time ago when it comes to immigration) there were 50,000 Algerians and 33,000 Moroccans in the city, numbers that have kept growing at a fast pace since. Both Royal Air Maroc and Air Algérie already operate daily flights to Montreal, and RAM has been in the market for decades. YUL is Air Algérie's only destination in North America, and Royal Air Maroc's largest of two destinations, ahead of New York JFK. The only reason Air Canada has avoided these markets in the past is because of the low yields and the lack of premium demand--but Rouge solves that problem.


AH is currently 4 x week YUL-ALG, not daily. You also didn't mention Tunisair which operates 2 x week YUL-TUN. Montreal is the only city in North America with direct service to both Algeria and Tunisia.


Is that year round? 4 x weekly YUL-ALG year round? 2 x weekly YUL-TUN year round?


Schedules show the same services in mid-January.
 
NichCage
Posts: 916
Joined: Wed Jun 22, 2016 6:43 pm

Re: Air Canada expansion including Mumbai, Taipei, Nagoya and Algiers

Wed Sep 28, 2016 9:02 pm

Nice to see that Air Canada does very well in India. The ME3 do have a big market share in India, and Air Canada will now offer YYZ to BOM, as well as YYZ and YVR to DEL. The only reason to why Air Canada can do this is because of the fact the ME3 (Emirates, Ethiad Airways, Qatar Airways) are only allowed three flights a week to Canada.
 
1900Driver
Posts: 136
Joined: Fri Apr 06, 2012 3:17 pm

Re: Air Canada expansion including Mumbai, Taipei, Nagoya and Algiers

Wed Sep 28, 2016 9:37 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
1900Driver wrote:
C'mon seriously, let's put an end to this! The current bilaterals were negotiated between the two countries. If the Canadian government did not honour it's part of the framework, then I would inclined to agree with you. The US negotiated open skies, & that's the reality the US3 have to live with.

Please stay on topic & stick to credible facts. Refrain from making loaded statements.

Not sure what you're complaining about, as there's nothing "loaded" about anything said.... it's a factual statement:
Canada limits the amount of competing the ME3 can do within that country's market.

There's no blame assignment, and quite frankly, I think Canada did the smart thing.

But the fact remains, using AC as an example of how anyone else should compete against the ME3 is laughable, as the ME3 are governmentally limited as to how much capacity they can throw into AC's markets; whereas other airlines wouldn't have (as much of) that distinct artificially-imposed advantage in their dealing with the ME3.



Absolutely a loaded statement. That's what was negotiated between the two countries & Canada is under no obligation to grant more when the expanded framework does't exist. How can you call it a Government restriction when both parties came to this agreement.

If you call it a technical bilateral restriction under the present agreement, then yes you are correct. Unilateral Canadian Gov restriction, No! Would the UAE unilaterally allow AC to go 6X weekly without restriction & set precedence. Of course not! If Canada reneged on an open skies agreement for example, then that would constitute a GOV restriction. So therefore calling it a bilateral restrictions instead of a Gov restrictions is more appropriate & less biased.

I do not want to get into an argument over an "artificially-imposed advantage" as you're opening a pandoras box. Especially, when your using Government air carriers (whose primary objective is not for profit) as an example. In essence, the whole notion of competing with the ME3 is laughable to me with their distinct (& indistinct!) advantages. With the exception of EK, what would happen if the oil & gas taps run dry? Hmmm...

To stay on topic, this is great news for AC as it will allow them to compete more effectively against "ambiguous carriers".

There's no way around that.


Of course there is. EK started in NOV15 lobbying the Liberal Gov into additional landing rights. Perhaps it may work, who knows? They failed miserably with the previous government.
 
ElPistolero
Posts: 1753
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:44 am

Re: Air Canada expansion including Mumbai, Taipei, Nagoya and Algiers

Wed Sep 28, 2016 10:39 pm

1900Driver wrote:
Absolutely a loaded statement. That's what was negotiated between the two countries & Canada is under no obligation to grant more when the expanded framework does't exist. How can you call it a Government restriction when both parties came to this agreement.

If you call it a technical bilateral restriction under the present agreement, then yes you are correct. Unilateral Canadian Gov restriction, No! Would the UAE unilaterally allow AC to go 6X weekly without restriction & set precedence. Of course not! If Canada reneged on an open skies agreement for example, then that would constitute a GOV restriction. So therefore calling it a bilateral restrictions instead of a Gov restrictions is more appropriate & less biased.

I do not want to get into an argument over an "artificially-imposed advantage" as you're opening a pandoras box. Especially, when your using Government air carriers (whose primary objective is not for profit) as an example. In essence, the whole notion of competing with the ME3 is laughable to me with their distinct (& indistinct!) advantages. With the exception of EK, what would happen if the oil & gas taps run dry? Hmmm...

To stay on topic, this is great news for AC as it will allow them to compete more effectively against "ambiguous carriers".

There's no way around that.


Of course there is. EK started in NOV15 lobbying the Liberal Gov into additional landing rights. Perhaps it may work, who knows? They failed miserably with the previous government.


Your argument would be sound if Transport Canada declined the additional slots on the basis of the bilateral agreement.

That wasn't what happened. The issue was referred to Cabinet, and Cabinet made a decision (remember the minister wearing an EK cap?). At that point, it stops being a 'technical bilateral restriction' and, by definition becomes a 'Government decision'.

That aside, a quick glance at BOM departures from 10 PM to midnight reveal a real dearth of domestic connections. This suggests that there probably is a bigger YYZ-BOM O&D market than conventional wisdom on a.net has suggested in the past. If AC's going for US 6th freedom traffic, then they're going up against the ME3 and others anyway, whick suggests the ME3 angle is overstated.

I suspect this has something to do with retaining market share now that 9W is going to SkyTeam. The AC-9W LHR deal will soon be history, and KL-9W look like they'll be able to provide a good connectivity going forward. 9Ws also up gauging YYZ.
 
User avatar
thekorean
Posts: 1758
Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2011 9:05 pm

Re: Air Canada expansion including Mumbai, Taipei, Nagoya and Algiers

Wed Sep 28, 2016 10:52 pm

What's with YUL and North Africa? I understand they are both former French colonies, but are the ties, immigration or economic ties that strong?
 
User avatar
LAX772LR
Posts: 12322
Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2014 11:06 pm

Re: Air Canada expansion including Mumbai, Taipei, Nagoya and Algiers

Wed Sep 28, 2016 11:18 pm

1900Driver wrote:
How can you call it a Government restriction when both parties came to this agreement.

That both agreed to a restriction, does not negate the fact that it is a restriction.


1900Driver wrote:
Unilateral Canadian Gov restriction, No!

No one here has said anything about unilateral.


1900Driver wrote:
Of course there is.

You completely missed the context of that statement....

I'm not saying there's no way to renegotiate a bilateral; I'm saying that there's no way around the fact that it's easier for AC to compete against the ME3, than it is for airlines of a market with which (any of) the ME3 have the ability to add as much frequency/capacity as they want.


thekorean wrote:
What's with YUL and North Africa? I understand they are both former French colonies, but are the ties, immigration or economic ties that strong?

You basically answered your own question. The fact that several such carriers have chosen YUL as their sole N.Am gateway (over NYC or YYZ), speaks to the strength of its cultural/economic ties to those markets.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
hayzel777
Posts: 614
Joined: Wed Mar 16, 2016 3:18 am

Re: Air Canada expansion including Mumbai, Taipei, Nagoya and Algiers

Thu Sep 29, 2016 12:12 am

nname wrote:
VCEflyboy wrote:
Good luck with TPE. China Airlines and EVA both fill their 747 flights for peanuts. CI has great service and EVA has *A benefits. Not sure what AC can bring to the table.


The TPE-YVR and TPE-YYZ route consistently have LF in the low- to mid-90s, even higher during peak season. BR wanted daily or more for both routes, but they are limited to 5x weekly each due to bilateral restriction. Even more problem as BR will be replacing their 744 with 77W for the YVR route most likely in 2017. As BR is being forced to reduce capacity by more than 10% on a route that gets 98-99% LF for the busy months, there's the opportunity for AC.


EVA recently restarted their codeshare with AC after a sudden stop so maybe they will codeshare on the route?
 
uberflieger
Posts: 1573
Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2013 6:22 pm

Re: Air Canada expansion including Mumbai, Taipei, Nagoya and Algiers

Thu Sep 29, 2016 12:21 am

WOW! What a difference from just a few years ago. Some exciting new destinations. Congratulations Air Canada. :D
 
downdata
Posts: 552
Joined: Wed Feb 17, 2016 2:38 am

Re: Air Canada expansion including Mumbai, Taipei, Nagoya and Algiers

Thu Sep 29, 2016 12:24 am

LAX772LR wrote:
a380787 wrote:
THAT'S the correct way to compete against ME3

What is? Having government artificially limit the ME3's access?
...isn't that exactly what DL and the US3 have been trying to do?


Th best way to compete is by reducing competition so that UA can start charging $5000 return tickets like AC
 
User avatar
LH748
Posts: 380
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 10:44 am

Re: Air Canada expansion including Mumbai, Taipei, Nagoya and Algiers

Thu Sep 29, 2016 12:44 am

Language connects. It's the same reason why British Airways serves many English-speaking African destinations and Air France serves many French-speaking African destinations, just to name two further examples.
Québec is THE French-speaking region of North America so it's no surprise that YUL would be THE main destination for French-speaking North Africans.
306 310 318 319 320 321 333 343 388 ATR72 733 737 738 739 743 744 748 752 753 763 764 772 77W 788 CRJ7 CRJ9 E170 F100 MD11 RJ1H
AA AB AC AF AK AZ BA DE DL EW FD FR HF HG IB IR MF KU LH LT LX OD TG TK TP UA VJ VN WN W6 YP YW
 
uberflieger
Posts: 1573
Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2013 6:22 pm

Re: Air Canada expansion including Mumbai, Taipei, Nagoya and Algiers

Thu Sep 29, 2016 12:52 am

downdata wrote:
Th best way to compete is by reducing competition so that UA can start charging $5000 return tickets like AC

AC/UA $590 RT to Dubai.
http://thepointsguy.com/2016/09/deal-al ... ound-trip/
 
rocketPower
Posts: 109
Joined: Sat Jan 16, 2016 9:48 pm

Re: Air Canada expansion including Mumbai, Taipei, Nagoya and Algiers

Thu Sep 29, 2016 1:23 am

Very cool, avoiding immigration in Tokyo on the way to Nagoya is a huge plus. Those lines are ridiculous, especially at NRT. YUL-YVR-NGO, here I come!
rocketPower

Life is about enjoying being uncomfortable. If you're complacent, something is wrong!
 
Avionics09
Posts: 136
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2014 6:08 pm

Re: Air Canada expansion including Mumbai, Taipei, Nagoya and Algiers

Thu Sep 29, 2016 6:56 am

GE9X wrote:
readytotaxi wrote:
Algiers ? Is there a sizeable population in Canada or business links?

As the French-speaking anchor of the New World, Montreal is the primary gateway into North America for Moroccans, Algerians, Tunisians, all three of whom have substantial French-speaking populations and history. According to the 2006 census (a long, long time ago when it comes to immigration) there were 50,000 Algerians and 33,000 Moroccans in the city, numbers that have kept growing at a fast pace since. Both Royal Air Maroc and Air Algérie already operate daily flights to Montreal, and RAM has been in the market for decades. YUL is Air Algérie's only destination in North America, and Royal Air Maroc's largest of two destinations, ahead of New York JFK. The only reason Air Canada has avoided these markets in the past is because of the low yields and the lack of premium demand--but Rouge solves that problem.


Those are dated numbers indeed.

An estimated 100,000 Canadians are of Moroccan origin, making it the largest North African community in Canada. Every year, nearly 3000 young Moroccans come to study in Canadian colleges and universities, traditionally in Quebec, but increasingly in other provinces and territories as well. Formal diplomatic relations were established in 1962.


http://www.canadainternational.gc.ca/mo ... x?lang=eng

This explains RAM's double daily operation in peak period onboard B747/787 at present YUL sees daily B787 service from RAM. In addition the carrier serves JFK & IAD in N-America.
 
rocketPower
Posts: 109
Joined: Sat Jan 16, 2016 9:48 pm

Re: Air Canada expansion including Mumbai, Taipei, Nagoya and Algiers

Thu Sep 29, 2016 8:35 am

Avionics09 wrote:
This explains RAM's double daily operation in peak period onboard B747/787 at present YUL sees daily B787 service from RAM. In addition the carrier serves JFK & IAD in N-America.


I thought they retired that decrepit 744 with the missing/broken seats but still use the 767 and 787.
rocketPower

Life is about enjoying being uncomfortable. If you're complacent, something is wrong!
 
OGLOBAL
Posts: 178
Joined: Thu Sep 29, 2016 12:29 pm

Re: Air Canada expansion including Mumbai, Taipei, Nagoya and Algiers

Thu Sep 29, 2016 12:37 pm

i am guessing the BEY rumour was false ..
 
upwardfacing
Posts: 423
Joined: Thu Apr 04, 2013 6:56 am

Re: Air Canada expansion including Mumbai, Taipei, Nagoya and Algiers

Thu Sep 29, 2016 11:40 pm

ElPistolero wrote:
That aside, a quick glance at BOM departures from 10 PM to midnight reveal a real dearth of domestic connections. This suggests that there probably is a bigger YYZ-BOM O&D market than conventional wisdom on a.net has suggested in the past. If AC's going for US 6th freedom traffic, then they're going up against the ME3 and others anyway, whick suggests the ME3 angle is overstated.


The YYZ-BOM-YYZ schedule is designed to fit into Air Canada's existing operations and, accordingly, emphasise connections in its home market, where it obviously has a point-of-sale advantage. Transborder connections are vital as well.

If and when Air India launches DEL-YYZ-DEL, it will surely emphasise connections in its home market, and we will see a schedule very similar to DEL-ORD-DEL.

Note also that AC is following essentially the same schedule for its India flights as partner United (earlier Continental) out of Newark has been operating since 2005.

ElPistolero wrote:
I suspect this has something to do with retaining market share now that 9W is going to SkyTeam. The AC-9W LHR deal will soon be history, and KL-9W look like they'll be able to provide a good connectivity going forward. 9Ws also up gauging YYZ.


There is no sign whatsoever that 9W is joining Skyteam. Like its overlord Etihad Airways, Jet codeshares and interlines with a number of carriers.
 
ElPistolero
Posts: 1753
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:44 am

Re: Air Canada expansion including Mumbai, Taipei, Nagoya and Algiers

Fri Sep 30, 2016 12:13 am

upwardfacing wrote:
The YYZ-BOM-YYZ schedule is designed to fit into Air Canada's existing operations and, accordingly, emphasise connections in its home market, where it obviously has a point-of-sale advantage. Transborder connections are vital as well.

If and when Air India launches DEL-YYZ-DEL, it will surely emphasise connections in its home market, and we will see a schedule very similar to DEL-ORD-DEL.

Note also that AC is following essentially the same schedule for its India flights as partner United (earlier Continental) out of Newark has been operating since 2005.


Can't really disagree, other than point out that NYC-BOM and YYZ-BOM are very different animals (as is YYZ-DEL allegedly).

upwardfacing wrote:
There is no sign whatsoever that 9W is joining Skyteam. Like its overlord Etihad Airways, Jet codeshares and interlines with a number of carriers.


There seems to be all kinds of stuff going on between 9W and AF/DL/KL. But I'll rephrase:

With 9W set to benefit from a lot more ST feed ex-North America, it's bound to compete more with AC for CAN/US BOM pax than it did previously. Thanks to KL, it can now offer one-stop to YEG/YUL/YVR/YYZ/YYC. Throw KL/DL in and you've got ATL/BOS/DTW/IAH/IAD/LAX/MSP/NYC/ORD/PDX/SLC/SEA/SFO.

That's a significant change by any measure, compared to the meager BRU operations that forced AC connections through LHR. I suspect 9W will now use the LHR flight to focus on O&D and route connectors through AMS.

I personally think 9W will join ST, like AZ (which also has EY as its overlords). But that's pure speculation on my part.

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos