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atal17 wrote:Wow! First Toronto-Delhi, then Vancouver-Delhi and now Toronto-Mumbai!
Air Canada is on a roll here!
Ytraveller wrote:atal17 wrote:Wow! First Toronto-Delhi, then Vancouver-Delhi and now Toronto-Mumbai!
Air Canada is on a roll here!
Certainly I'm excited to see them expand in India, but I doubt any of this would be possible were EK/QR/EY flying daily into YYZ.
Someone83 wrote:Will any routes be cut next summer for Rouge to have this expansion, or is it a net expansion and they are getting more 767s?
Thenoflyzone wrote:Someone83 wrote:Will any routes be cut next summer for Rouge to have this expansion, or is it a net expansion and they are getting more 767s?
All expansion. Rouge is getting a handful of 767s next year.
atal17 wrote:Wow! First Toronto-Delhi, then Vancouver-Delhi and now Toronto-Mumbai!
Air Canada is on a roll here!
a380787 wrote:Precisely. THAT'S the correct way to compete against ME3, not constantly wondering why there's not enough cheese to go with all the whine.
Ytraveller wrote:a380787 wrote:Precisely. THAT'S the correct way to compete against ME3, not constantly wondering why there's not enough cheese to go with all the whine.
Don't forget that the Canadian government has limited the ME3's growth in the country, unlike the situation in the US.
atal17 wrote:Ytraveller wrote:a380787 wrote:Precisely. THAT'S the correct way to compete against ME3, not constantly wondering why there's not enough cheese to go with all the whine.
Don't forget that the Canadian government has limited the ME3's growth in the country, unlike the situation in the US.
As I've made the point before - I don't think Mumbai-Toronto can be solely filled be O/D feed because, IIRC, Canada's Indian immigrant population has North Indians outnumbering South Indians by quite a bit.
Therefore, the flight would need plenty of crossborder traffic to support it, and that's where the ME3 competition will come in....
readytotaxi wrote:Algiers ? Is there a sizeable population in Canada or business links?
a380787 wrote:THAT'S the correct way to compete against ME3
Dominion301 wrote:Thenoflyzone wrote:Someone83 wrote:Will any routes be cut next summer for Rouge to have this expansion, or is it a net expansion and they are getting more 767s?
All expansion. Rouge is getting a handful of 767s next year.
I wonder whether AC will be securing some 2nd hand 767s or if they'll all be mainline transfers?
VCEflyboy wrote:Good luck with TPE. China Airlines and EVA both fill their 747 flights for peanuts. CI has great service and EVA has *A benefits. Not sure what AC can bring to the table.
VCEflyboy wrote:Good luck with TPE. China Airlines and EVA both fill their 747 flights for peanuts. CI has great service and EVA has *A benefits. Not sure what AC can bring to the table.
VCEflyboy wrote:Good luck with TPE. China Airlines and EVA both fill their 747 flights for peanuts. CI has great service and EVA has *A benefits. Not sure what AC can bring to the table.
LAX772LR wrote:a380787 wrote:THAT'S the correct way to compete against ME3
What is? Having government artificially limit the ME3's access?
...isn't that exactly what DL and the US3 have been trying to do?
a380787 wrote:LAX772LR wrote:a380787 wrote:THAT'S the correct way to compete against ME3
What is? Having government artificially limit the ME3's access?
...isn't that exactly what DL and the US3 have been trying to do?
But if we want to be discussing ME3 access in Canada, I recall it was EK's greed that led them to ignore the 6x weekly that was initially on the plate for the entirety of UAE (their position could be characterized as "daily or nothing"). EY scooped in with a gamble of 3x back in 2005, first via BRU then went nonstop. The rest is history.
Since many like to portray Ottawa as the evil protectionist godzilla hell bent on keeping their Montreal overlords happy, let's remember that UAE wasn't playing nice either. They publicly threatened to kick Canada out of their military bases in 2010 in an attempt to gain leverage at the route authority table. I'd say that move definitely backfired.
Yes, the econ fare VFR is definitely losing out on more competitive fares to go home, but on the flip side, the business travelers now have 3 different Canada-India nonstop routes that most likely won't ever materialize if ME3 had unfettered access. Not one, three.
readytotaxi wrote:Algiers ? Is there a sizeable population in Canada or business links?
a380787 wrote:Since many like to portray Ottawa as the evil protectionist godzilla hell bent on keeping their Montreal overlords happy, let's remember that UAE wasn't playing nice either. They publicly threatened to kick Canada out of their military bases in 2010 in an attempt to gain leverage at the route authority table. I'd say that move definitely backfired.
LAX772LR wrote:a380787 wrote:THAT'S the correct way to compete against ME3
What is? Having government artificially limit the ME3's access?
...isn't that exactly what DL and the US3 have been trying to do?
RL777 wrote:VCEflyboy wrote:Good luck with TPE. China Airlines and EVA both fill their 747 flights for peanuts. CI has great service and EVA has *A benefits. Not sure what AC can bring to the table.
I could see the business case if they were operating the route with one of their HD 77Ws, but I don't see how they can compete with a 789. BR will be switching YVR to a 77W soon as well.
GE9X wrote:readytotaxi wrote:Algiers ? Is there a sizeable population in Canada or business links?
As the French-speaking anchor of the New World, Montreal is the primary gateway into North America for Moroccans, Algerians, Tunisians, all three of whom have substantial French-speaking populations and history. According to the 2006 census (a long, long time ago when it comes to immigration) there were 50,000 Algerians and 33,000 Moroccans in the city, numbers that have kept growing at a fast pace since. Both Royal Air Maroc and Air Algérie already operate daily flights to Montreal, and RAM has been in the market for decades. YUL is Air Algérie's only destination in North America, and Royal Air Maroc's largest of two destinations, ahead of New York JFK. The only reason Air Canada has avoided these markets in the past is because of the low yields and the lack of premium demand--but Rouge solves that problem.
Viscount724 wrote:GE9X wrote:readytotaxi wrote:Algiers ? Is there a sizeable population in Canada or business links?
As the French-speaking anchor of the New World, Montreal is the primary gateway into North America for Moroccans, Algerians, Tunisians, all three of whom have substantial French-speaking populations and history. According to the 2006 census (a long, long time ago when it comes to immigration) there were 50,000 Algerians and 33,000 Moroccans in the city, numbers that have kept growing at a fast pace since. Both Royal Air Maroc and Air Algérie already operate daily flights to Montreal, and RAM has been in the market for decades. YUL is Air Algérie's only destination in North America, and Royal Air Maroc's largest of two destinations, ahead of New York JFK. The only reason Air Canada has avoided these markets in the past is because of the low yields and the lack of premium demand--but Rouge solves that problem.
AH is currently 4 x week YUL-ALG, not daily. You also didn't mention Tunisair which operates 2 x week YUL-TUN. Montreal is the only city in North America with direct service to both Algeria and Tunisia.
Viscount724 wrote:GE9X wrote:readytotaxi wrote:Algiers ? Is there a sizeable population in Canada or business links?
As the French-speaking anchor of the New World, Montreal is the primary gateway into North America for Moroccans, Algerians, Tunisians, all three of whom have substantial French-speaking populations and history. According to the 2006 census (a long, long time ago when it comes to immigration) there were 50,000 Algerians and 33,000 Moroccans in the city, numbers that have kept growing at a fast pace since. Both Royal Air Maroc and Air Algérie already operate daily flights to Montreal, and RAM has been in the market for decades. YUL is Air Algérie's only destination in North America, and Royal Air Maroc's largest of two destinations, ahead of New York JFK. The only reason Air Canada has avoided these markets in the past is because of the low yields and the lack of premium demand--but Rouge solves that problem.
AH is currently 4 x week YUL-ALG, not daily. You also didn't mention Tunisair which operates 2 x week YUL-TUN. Montreal is the only city in North America with direct service to both Algeria and Tunisia.
1900Driver wrote:C'mon seriously, let's put an end to this! The current bilaterals were negotiated between the two countries. If the Canadian government did not honour it's part of the framework, then I would inclined to agree with you. The US negotiated open skies, & that's the reality the US3 have to live with.
Please stay on topic & stick to credible facts. Refrain from making loaded statements.
VCEflyboy wrote:Good luck with TPE. China Airlines and EVA both fill their 747 flights for peanuts. CI has great service and EVA has *A benefits. Not sure what AC can bring to the table.
B752OS wrote:Viscount724 wrote:GE9X wrote:As the French-speaking anchor of the New World, Montreal is the primary gateway into North America for Moroccans, Algerians, Tunisians, all three of whom have substantial French-speaking populations and history. According to the 2006 census (a long, long time ago when it comes to immigration) there were 50,000 Algerians and 33,000 Moroccans in the city, numbers that have kept growing at a fast pace since. Both Royal Air Maroc and Air Algérie already operate daily flights to Montreal, and RAM has been in the market for decades. YUL is Air Algérie's only destination in North America, and Royal Air Maroc's largest of two destinations, ahead of New York JFK. The only reason Air Canada has avoided these markets in the past is because of the low yields and the lack of premium demand--but Rouge solves that problem.
AH is currently 4 x week YUL-ALG, not daily. You also didn't mention Tunisair which operates 2 x week YUL-TUN. Montreal is the only city in North America with direct service to both Algeria and Tunisia.
Is that year round? 4 x weekly YUL-ALG year round? 2 x weekly YUL-TUN year round?
LAX772LR wrote:1900Driver wrote:C'mon seriously, let's put an end to this! The current bilaterals were negotiated between the two countries. If the Canadian government did not honour it's part of the framework, then I would inclined to agree with you. The US negotiated open skies, & that's the reality the US3 have to live with.
Please stay on topic & stick to credible facts. Refrain from making loaded statements.
Not sure what you're complaining about, as there's nothing "loaded" about anything said.... it's a factual statement:
Canada limits the amount of competing the ME3 can do within that country's market.
There's no blame assignment, and quite frankly, I think Canada did the smart thing.
But the fact remains, using AC as an example of how anyone else should compete against the ME3 is laughable, as the ME3 are governmentally limited as to how much capacity they can throw into AC's markets; whereas other airlines wouldn't have (as much of) that distinct artificially-imposed advantage in their dealing with the ME3.
There's no way around that.
1900Driver wrote:Absolutely a loaded statement. That's what was negotiated between the two countries & Canada is under no obligation to grant more when the expanded framework does't exist. How can you call it a Government restriction when both parties came to this agreement.
If you call it a technical bilateral restriction under the present agreement, then yes you are correct. Unilateral Canadian Gov restriction, No! Would the UAE unilaterally allow AC to go 6X weekly without restriction & set precedence. Of course not! If Canada reneged on an open skies agreement for example, then that would constitute a GOV restriction. So therefore calling it a bilateral restrictions instead of a Gov restrictions is more appropriate & less biased.
I do not want to get into an argument over an "artificially-imposed advantage" as you're opening a pandoras box. Especially, when your using Government air carriers (whose primary objective is not for profit) as an example. In essence, the whole notion of competing with the ME3 is laughable to me with their distinct (& indistinct!) advantages. With the exception of EK, what would happen if the oil & gas taps run dry? Hmmm...
To stay on topic, this is great news for AC as it will allow them to compete more effectively against "ambiguous carriers".There's no way around that.
Of course there is. EK started in NOV15 lobbying the Liberal Gov into additional landing rights. Perhaps it may work, who knows? They failed miserably with the previous government.
1900Driver wrote:How can you call it a Government restriction when both parties came to this agreement.
1900Driver wrote:Unilateral Canadian Gov restriction, No!
1900Driver wrote:Of course there is.
thekorean wrote:What's with YUL and North Africa? I understand they are both former French colonies, but are the ties, immigration or economic ties that strong?
nname wrote:VCEflyboy wrote:Good luck with TPE. China Airlines and EVA both fill their 747 flights for peanuts. CI has great service and EVA has *A benefits. Not sure what AC can bring to the table.
The TPE-YVR and TPE-YYZ route consistently have LF in the low- to mid-90s, even higher during peak season. BR wanted daily or more for both routes, but they are limited to 5x weekly each due to bilateral restriction. Even more problem as BR will be replacing their 744 with 77W for the YVR route most likely in 2017. As BR is being forced to reduce capacity by more than 10% on a route that gets 98-99% LF for the busy months, there's the opportunity for AC.
LAX772LR wrote:a380787 wrote:THAT'S the correct way to compete against ME3
What is? Having government artificially limit the ME3's access?
...isn't that exactly what DL and the US3 have been trying to do?
downdata wrote:Th best way to compete is by reducing competition so that UA can start charging $5000 return tickets like AC
GE9X wrote:readytotaxi wrote:Algiers ? Is there a sizeable population in Canada or business links?
As the French-speaking anchor of the New World, Montreal is the primary gateway into North America for Moroccans, Algerians, Tunisians, all three of whom have substantial French-speaking populations and history. According to the 2006 census (a long, long time ago when it comes to immigration) there were 50,000 Algerians and 33,000 Moroccans in the city, numbers that have kept growing at a fast pace since. Both Royal Air Maroc and Air Algérie already operate daily flights to Montreal, and RAM has been in the market for decades. YUL is Air Algérie's only destination in North America, and Royal Air Maroc's largest of two destinations, ahead of New York JFK. The only reason Air Canada has avoided these markets in the past is because of the low yields and the lack of premium demand--but Rouge solves that problem.
An estimated 100,000 Canadians are of Moroccan origin, making it the largest North African community in Canada. Every year, nearly 3000 young Moroccans come to study in Canadian colleges and universities, traditionally in Quebec, but increasingly in other provinces and territories as well. Formal diplomatic relations were established in 1962.
Avionics09 wrote:This explains RAM's double daily operation in peak period onboard B747/787 at present YUL sees daily B787 service from RAM. In addition the carrier serves JFK & IAD in N-America.
ElPistolero wrote:That aside, a quick glance at BOM departures from 10 PM to midnight reveal a real dearth of domestic connections. This suggests that there probably is a bigger YYZ-BOM O&D market than conventional wisdom on a.net has suggested in the past. If AC's going for US 6th freedom traffic, then they're going up against the ME3 and others anyway, whick suggests the ME3 angle is overstated.
ElPistolero wrote:I suspect this has something to do with retaining market share now that 9W is going to SkyTeam. The AC-9W LHR deal will soon be history, and KL-9W look like they'll be able to provide a good connectivity going forward. 9Ws also up gauging YYZ.
upwardfacing wrote:The YYZ-BOM-YYZ schedule is designed to fit into Air Canada's existing operations and, accordingly, emphasise connections in its home market, where it obviously has a point-of-sale advantage. Transborder connections are vital as well.
If and when Air India launches DEL-YYZ-DEL, it will surely emphasise connections in its home market, and we will see a schedule very similar to DEL-ORD-DEL.
Note also that AC is following essentially the same schedule for its India flights as partner United (earlier Continental) out of Newark has been operating since 2005.
upwardfacing wrote:There is no sign whatsoever that 9W is joining Skyteam. Like its overlord Etihad Airways, Jet codeshares and interlines with a number of carriers.