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alfa164
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Re: Irrefutable proof: MH17 was downed by BUK Missile in rebel controlled location

Wed Sep 28, 2016 9:58 pm

PW100 wrote:
eielef wrote:
If I sell you a gun (as in many stores in the US they do), and you decide to shot someone, is not my responsibility.

That is too easy. Better comparison would be this one: you did not sell me just a gun, you sold me a 6000 rounds per minute M61 Vulcan 6-barrel 20mm gun, with plenty of armour penetrating PGU-28 monition. Because I needed a gun for my self protection. Wouldn't you share at least some of the is to blame when my neighbours get killed trying the beast out . . . ?


Better yet... you don't sell me a gun, you give me a gun - and tell me you expect me to use on someone you have decided is your enemy. This would be Russia's rule in arming the "rebels".
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Dutchy
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Re: Irrefutable proof: MH17 was downed by BUK Missile in rebel controlled location

Wed Sep 28, 2016 10:24 pm

SCAT15F wrote:
You, nor the Dutch have absolutely any proof whatsoever that the Russian government or Putin had anything to do with this. None.
Was it the rebels? Maybe. Was it the illegitimate Neo-Nazi US-backed coup regime in Kiev? Perhaps. Was it a false flag? based on NATO/US history, very possibly.

If Russia says they didn't do it, I believe them. They would have absolutely no reason to do such a thing. The only ones who would stand to gain -and gain mightily- from this shoot-down is the US/NATO. This would make perfect sense in light of the neocon Ukraine/Russia project. Unfortunately nearly everyone in the west is so thoroughly brainwashed and ignorant of US/NATO foreign policy history that they condemn and ridicule anyone who dares to question its pronouncements.


"If Russia says they didn't do it, I believe them." Why is that? That is a crazy statement since the JIT proofed without a doubt the missile came from Russia, the specific missile is only in use with the Russian military, the proved how the BUK was transported from the Russian border to the site with social media and with intercepted phone calls. So either Russia has lent the BUK system with or without Russian crew, those two are the only options, no matter what propaganda you believe from Russia Today or other Russian state controlled media.

With regards of the Russian state, well, either they sanctioned the delivery of a BUK-system or they didn't, I sincerely hope they did, because if they didn't, then you have a whole other problem in the Russian military, if they can take out such advanced and powerful weapons without government approval.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Irrefutable proof: MH17 was downed by BUK Missile in rebel controlled location

Wed Sep 28, 2016 10:26 pm

alfa164 wrote:
PW100 wrote:
eielef wrote:
If I sell you a gun (as in many stores in the US they do), and you decide to shot someone, is not my responsibility.

That is too easy. Better comparison would be this one: you did not sell me just a gun, you sold me a 6000 rounds per minute M61 Vulcan 6-barrel 20mm gun, with plenty of armour penetrating PGU-28 monition. Because I needed a gun for my self protection. Wouldn't you share at least some of the is to blame when my neighbours get killed trying the beast out . . . ?


Better yet... you don't sell me a gun, you give me a gun - and tell me you expect me to use on someone you have decided is your enemy. This would be Russia's rule in arming the "rebels".


Well think about this, if you give a gun to a two year old, and the two year old kills someone, you will be prosecuted. And I think rightfully so.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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atypical
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Re: Irrefutable proof: MH17 was downed by BUK Missile in rebel controlled location

Wed Sep 28, 2016 11:16 pm

I have always felt the evidence was that the launch of the BUK was the result of rebel decision making, quite possibly in defiance of any Russian restrictions of its use if they even got it from the Russians. The unverified Russian radar imagery without sufficient altitude details to the horrible photoshop meant Russia was presenting two positive explanations both factually in opposition to each other. The issue should always have been the rebels, but the lengths Russia went to protecting them made the Russians complicit where that was not necessarily the case. The Russians would have better off saying nothing and letting the cards fall as they may. The results would have been some quarters blaming Russia (like Ukraine) but the rebels would have remained the focus with the Russians blame probably ending at "being stupid to let those idiots use a BUK at all."

I do not, and have never, believed the Russians were actively involved in the shooting down a passenger aircraft. They unfortunately were active in covering the situation up and when it finally resulted it resulted in two divergent explanations being presented at the same time I think most people were shaking their heads wondering why.
Last edited by atypical on Thu Sep 29, 2016 3:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
JayBCNLON
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Re: Irrefutable proof: MH17 was downed by BUK Missile in rebel controlled location

Wed Sep 28, 2016 11:27 pm

eielef wrote:
What would have happened if it was an LY flight??? Or an American plane? They used to fly over Ukraine while en route to Israel from the US, isn't it?


When I monitored Eastern Ukraine on FR24 on the days leading up to the shoot-down of MH17 I remember seeing SQ, LH, BA on the way to SE Asia, and UA to India. LY to Israel traffic flies further west, (Western Europe, Poland, western Ukraine),

MH was the softest available target, with Malaysia having the least political and military power to fight back.
 
salttee
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Re: Irrefutable proof: MH17 was downed by BUK Missile in rebel controlled location

Wed Sep 28, 2016 11:40 pm

JayBCNLON wrote:
MH was the softest available target, with Malaysia having the least political and military power to fight back.

I rate this as my number one pick as far a being the probable reason for choice of target.

My pick for the second most probable scenario is found in ComeAndGo's post #24 in this thread:
"Are you sure the intended target was A Malaysian passenger jet and not maybe a Russian passenger jet? If it had been a Russian passenger jet it would've been a piece of cake for Putin to declare war on Ukraine................ Had the buk been (a little further north) the plane shot down would've been an Aeroflot A320 and Ukraine would've been Russian territory by now."

This comes off as a bit conspiratorial, but the logic is hard to ignore.
 
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TheFlyingDisk
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Re: Irrefutable proof: MH17 was downed by BUK Missile in rebel controlled location

Wed Sep 28, 2016 11:43 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
All I'll say is Ukraine and MH should also shoulder some responsibility for this, a civilian airliner should not have been flying over a war zone. Ukraine should have closed the airspace and MH should have flown around it.


Unless the area was a declared warzone how would anyone know that it is? Don't forget, MH isn't the only ones using that airspace - SQ, EK, AI, KL & LH had used it in the days leading up to the shootdown. IIRC an SQ 777 out of CPH was only a few minutes behind MH17 and an AI 787 heading towards BHX was a few minutes heading towards MH17.

I would say that Ukraine should shoulder all of the blame that should have been assigned to MH in this case.
I FLY KLM+ALASKA+QATAR+MALAYSIA+AIRASIA+MALINDO
 
salttee
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Re: Irrefutable proof: MH17 was downed by BUK Missile in rebel controlled location

Thu Sep 29, 2016 12:03 am

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
I would say that Ukraine should shoulder all of the blame that should have been assigned to MH in this case.

I won't say "blame", but I will say that Russia carries 100% of the responsibility for bringing down MH-17 and the deaths of all aboard. Ukraine didn't cause this conflict, Ukraine didn't expand this conflict, this is on Russia and Russia alone.
 
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atypical
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Re: Irrefutable proof: MH17 was downed by BUK Missile in rebel controlled location

Thu Sep 29, 2016 12:05 am

SCAT15F wrote:
Was it the illegitimate Neo-Nazi US-backed coup regime in Kiev? Perhaps. Was it a false flag? based on NATO/US history, very possibly.


The level of rhetoric has been around without proof since the beginning. Proof isn't going to come by repeating it enough.

In 2008 NATO rejected issuing a MAP (Membership Action Plan) to Ukraine after Ukraine made an official request for one. So then less than 10 years later NATO goes to the expensive proposition of creating a "coup" to get what was rejected in 2008?

Why would anyone believe such a conspiracy when it ignores the facts (as above), provides an explanation based on circular logic, a premise so broad that anything is possible, or just so outlandish we are required to suspend disbelief permanently?
 
downdata
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Re: Irrefutable proof: MH17 was downed by BUK Missile in rebel controlled location

Thu Sep 29, 2016 12:09 am

You live in a fantasy world if you think that would happen. Russia denied shooting down the plane in 2014, why should it say otherwise in 2016?
 
JayBCNLON
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Re: Irrefutable proof: MH17 was downed by BUK Missile in rebel controlled location

Thu Sep 29, 2016 12:16 am

salttee wrote:
TheFlyingDisk wrote:
I would say that Ukraine should shoulder all of the blame that should have been assigned to MH in this case.

I won't say "blame", but I will say that Russia carries 100% of the responsibility for bringing down MH-17 and the deaths of all aboard. Ukraine didn't cause this conflict, Ukraine didn't expand this conflict, this is on Russia and Russia alone.


I could not agree more.
 
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atypical
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Re: Irrefutable proof: MH17 was downed by BUK Missile in rebel controlled location

Thu Sep 29, 2016 12:25 am

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
All I'll say is Ukraine and MH should also shoulder some responsibility for this, a civilian airliner should not have been flying over a war zone. Ukraine should have closed the airspace and MH should have flown around it.


Unless the area was a declared warzone how would anyone know that it is? Don't forget, MH isn't the only ones using that airspace - SQ, EK, AI, KL & LH had used it in the days leading up to the shootdown. IIRC an SQ 777 out of CPH was only a few minutes behind MH17 and an AI 787 heading towards BHX was a few minutes heading towards MH17.

I would say that Ukraine should shoulder all of the blame that should have been assigned to MH in this case.


Ukraine does bear some blame. Several days before an AN-26 was downed by a SAM while at 21,000 feet. That very close to the maximum range of MANPADS however well within the range of a BUK. An occurrence at that altitude should have forced the Ukraine authorities to close the airspace above the contested regions out of an abundance of caution and only opened it once they were sure another hardware system was not in play in the area. The only reason not to is if the authorities were still (mistakenly) sure that this was an incident still within MANPADS range.

It is not unusual for commercial aircraft to overfly war zones since most war zones do not include combatants with equipment able to reach high flying aircraft.
 
salttee
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Re: Irrefutable proof: MH17 was downed by BUK Missile in rebel controlled location

Thu Sep 29, 2016 1:27 am

atypical wrote:
Ukraine does bear some blame.
I don't see why Ukraine should be responsible for Russian actions.

It wasn't just the Ukrainians who knew about the AN26 downing, the whole world knew the basic facts; here is a NYT article on the same day of the downing which had the story with the salient detail (21,000 feet altitude) and the fact that this was out of MANPAD range.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/15/world ... .html?_r=0

Russia gets 100% responsibility for this in my book. To point a finger anywhere else is just letting them off the hook.
 
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777Jet
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Re: Irrefutable proof: MH17 was downed by BUK Missile in rebel controlled location

Thu Sep 29, 2016 2:37 am

salttee wrote:
atypical wrote:
Ukraine does bear some blame.
I don't see why Ukraine should be responsible for Russian actions.

It wasn't just the Ukrainians who knew about the AN26 downing, the whole world knew the basic facts; here is a NYT article on the same day of the downing which had the story with the salient detail (21,000 feet altitude) and the fact that this was out of MANPAD range.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/15/world ... .html?_r=0

Russia gets 100% responsibility for this in my book. To point a finger anywhere else is just letting them off the hook.


"It wasn't just the Ukrainians who knew about the AN26 downing, the whole world knew the basic facts;" -

Yet airlines flying planes full of customers played Russian roulette and continued to fly right over the same area, and the Ukraine allowed it. Whoever gave the orders or pulled the trigger is responsible for this in the end, but this act could have been easily prevented if the said airspace was closed and/or if airlines decided to avoid flying over the area despite the extra money in fuel it would cost them. Those decisions made the shoot-down possible and were negligent given the knowledge of the AN26 downing just days earlier.
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SCAT15F
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Re: Irrefutable proof: MH17 was downed by BUK Missile in rebel controlled location

Thu Sep 29, 2016 2:55 am

Wow. A NATO member nation carries out the "official investigation," and comes up with a result which -oh my- is exactly what the US state department said the day after MH17 was shot down (no investigation required for US intelligence).

Do you honestly believe the US/NATO would allow any other conclusion to be reached by an investigation run by one of its own member states when its sole purpose for existence is to oppose Russia?
 
salttee
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Re: Irrefutable proof: MH17 was downed by BUK Missile in rebel controlled location

Thu Sep 29, 2016 3:27 am

SCAT15F wrote:
Wow. A NATO member nation carries out the "official investigation," and comes up with a result which -oh my- is exactly what the US state department said the day after MH17 was shot down (no investigation required for US intelligence).

Do you honestly believe the US/NATO would allow any other conclusion to be reached by an investigation run by one of its own member states when its sole purpose for existence is to oppose Russia?

This post is utter nonsense. Neither the Dutch government or the Dutch prosecutor would give the slightest consideration to the desires of anybody in Belgium or Washington DC in this investigation. Your charge is based on ignorance of the political circumstance existing in the Netherlands.
 
PlanesNTrains
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Re: Irrefutable proof: MH17 was downed by BUK Missile in rebel controlled location

Thu Sep 29, 2016 3:32 am

SCAT15F wrote:
Wow. A NATO member nation carries out the "official investigation," and comes up with a result which -oh my- is exactly what the US state department said the day after MH17 was shot down (no investigation required for US intelligence).

Do you honestly believe the US/NATO would allow any other conclusion to be reached by an investigation run by one of its own member states when its sole purpose for existence is to oppose Russia?


Well, I guess we have another poster that will defend Russia at all costs. Nevermind that we all knew essentially THAT DAY what had happened because of multiple sources. Yes, I know, you'll point out that the US/NATO just manufactured the opposition radio transmissions, video of the BUK launcher being led back to Russia, eyewitness accounts, forensic evidence, Russian propaganda about other aircraft supposedly in the area, and on and on. It's getting almost predictable in these occurrences that a few posters will emerge from the woodwork and try to lead us down an alternative path that invariably defends all things Russia regardless of what evidence has been presented.

It's a sad commentary on the world we live in that a simple social media site becomes infected with these diversions.
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
salttee
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Re: Irrefutable proof: MH17 was downed by BUK Missile in rebel controlled location

Thu Sep 29, 2016 3:32 am

777Jet wrote:
salttee wrote:
atypical wrote:
Ukraine does bear some blame.
I don't see why Ukraine should be responsible for Russian actions.

It wasn't just the Ukrainians who knew about the AN26 downing, the whole world knew the basic facts; here is a NYT article on the same day of the downing which had the story with the salient detail (21,000 feet altitude) and the fact that this was out of MANPAD range.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/15/world ... .html?_r=0

Russia gets 100% responsibility for this in my book. To point a finger anywhere else is just letting them off the hook.


"It wasn't just the Ukrainians who knew about the AN26 downing, the whole world knew the basic facts;" -

Yet airlines flying planes full of customers played Russian roulette and continued to fly right over the same area, and the Ukraine allowed it. Whoever gave the orders or pulled the trigger is responsible for this in the end, but this act could have been easily prevented if the said airspace was closed and/or if airlines decided to avoid flying over the area despite the extra money in fuel it would cost them. Those decisions made the shoot-down possible and were negligent given the knowledge of the AN26 downing just days earlier.

This act could have been easier prevented if the Russians had not decided to shoot down an airliner. To blame anyone else is ludicrous.
 
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atypical
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Re: Irrefutable proof: MH17 was downed by BUK Missile in rebel controlled location

Thu Sep 29, 2016 3:41 am

salttee wrote:
atypical wrote:
Ukraine does bear some blame.
I don't see why Ukraine should be responsible for Russian actions.

It wasn't just the Ukrainians who knew about the AN26 downing, the whole world knew the basic facts; here is a NYT article on the same day of the downing which had the story with the salient detail (21,000 feet altitude) and the fact that this was out of MANPAD range.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/15/world ... .html?_r=0

Russia gets 100% responsibility for this in my book. To point a finger anywhere else is just letting them off the hook.


A lot went wrong. Some stupidity, some evil, some mismanagement. If Ukraine had information that aircraft within their safe zone could be in danger (eg 30,000 feet and above) it was incumbent on them to close the airspace. The only country with that authority was Ukraine. I am not claiming to know if that information at the time was known. The US forbid all US airlines from using that airspace and other countries left the decision up to the airlines themselves. If MH knew there was a potential risk at 30,000 feet it was also their responsibility to avoid the area too.

Look at it this way, if I am the only person who sees someone get shot and I tell no one and that person bleeds for 3 hours before a call goes out for help but he dies from blood loss, I have some responsibility for the person's death because of my actions (inaction in this case). I didn't pull the trigger but what I did had a direct bearing on the outcome.

Now the information from that day indicates the rebels shot down the MH17. If you believe this but assign 100% of the blame to the Russians then there is 0% for anyone else including the rebels who committed the act. The vast majority of the blame lies with them if you believe it was their direct actions that brought down the aircraft. If others are at blame aside from the ones who committed the direct act then there is a lot to spread around in this case and it varies.

As far as who I blame, if I could meet the guy who said "launch" for a one on one I would break out my old steel toed Docs just to make sure that no language barrier will affect his understanding on how I feel about him.
 
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777Jet
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Re: Irrefutable proof: MH17 was downed by BUK Missile in rebel controlled location

Thu Sep 29, 2016 4:07 am

salttee wrote:
777Jet wrote:
salttee wrote:
I don't see why Ukraine should be responsible for Russian actions.

It wasn't just the Ukrainians who knew about the AN26 downing, the whole world knew the basic facts; here is a NYT article on the same day of the downing which had the story with the salient detail (21,000 feet altitude) and the fact that this was out of MANPAD range.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/15/world ... .html?_r=0

Russia gets 100% responsibility for this in my book. To point a finger anywhere else is just letting them off the hook.


"It wasn't just the Ukrainians who knew about the AN26 downing, the whole world knew the basic facts;" -

Yet airlines flying planes full of customers played Russian roulette and continued to fly right over the same area, and the Ukraine allowed it. Whoever gave the orders or pulled the trigger is responsible for this in the end, but this act could have been easily prevented if the said airspace was closed and/or if airlines decided to avoid flying over the area despite the extra money in fuel it would cost them. Those decisions made the shoot-down possible and were negligent given the knowledge of the AN26 downing just days earlier.

This act could have been easier prevented if the Russians had not decided to shoot down an airliner. To blame anyone else is ludicrous.


To ignore the other factors that contributed to this is just as ludicrous, as well as immature, irresponsible and biased to an extent. The Russian operated BUK brought down the plane, but why were airlines still flying over that particular war zone given the AN26 shoot-down days earlier which the "whole world knew" about to use your term. To not acknowledge the role the airline played by using that flight path, and the role the Ukraine played by not closing that airspace thus allowing the airlines to continue to roll the dice, is indicative of an agenda.
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BestWestern
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Re: Irrefutable proof: MH17 was downed by BUK Missile in rebel controlled location

Thu Sep 29, 2016 4:58 am

That's why I think that Russian backed rebels were in control. Some inexperienced street fighter didn't know what he was doing. Nobody would intentionally shoot a passenger airliner out of the sky*, would they?

Russian missile, Russian launcher, rebel operators, momentous cock-up. The Russian military command should never have allowed such powerful weaponry to be used by total amateurs or rogue soldiers and to me that's where the blame lies.

The west has made similar military mistakes - Iran, Iraq, Libya, etc ad nausium.

• except of course the Russians with Korean 007
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seahawk
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Re: Irrefutable proof: MH17 was downed by BUK Missile in rebel controlled location

Thu Sep 29, 2016 5:01 am

How much you believe a NATO led investigation, that is a good question.
 
SCAT15F
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Re: Irrefutable proof: MH17 was downed by BUK Missile in rebel controlled location

Thu Sep 29, 2016 5:14 am

Yea right, except that the TELAR that brought down MH-17 was from the Russian 53rd Air Defense Brigade.

So says a NATO member's investigatory team which happens to have a representative of the Kiev regime as a member.
 
SCAT15F
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Re: Irrefutable proof: MH17 was downed by BUK Missile in rebel controlled location

Thu Sep 29, 2016 5:21 am

PlanesNTrains wrote:
SCAT15F wrote:
Wow. A NATO member nation carries out the "official investigation," and comes up with a result which -oh my- is exactly what the US state department said the day after MH17 was shot down (no investigation required for US intelligence).

Do you honestly believe the US/NATO would allow any other conclusion to be reached by an investigation run by one of its own member states when its sole purpose for existence is to oppose Russia?


Well, I guess we have another poster that will defend Russia at all costs. Nevermind that we all knew essentially THAT DAY what had happened because of multiple sources. Yes, I know, you'll point out that the US/NATO just manufactured the opposition radio transmissions, video of the BUK launcher being led back to Russia, eyewitness accounts, forensic evidence, Russian propaganda about other aircraft supposedly in the area, and on and on. It's getting almost predictable in these occurrences that a few posters will emerge from the woodwork and try to lead us down an alternative path that invariably defends all things Russia regardless of what evidence has been presented.

It's a sad commentary on the world we live in that a simple social media site becomes infected with these diversions.


The sad commentary is that you and others like you don't tolerate dissent to your opinions and beliefs, which says a lot.
 
salttee
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Re: Irrefutable proof: MH17 was downed by BUK Missile in rebel controlled location

Thu Sep 29, 2016 5:29 am

SCAT15F wrote:
Yea right, except that the TELAR that brought down MH-17 was from the Russian 53rd Air Defense Brigade.

So says a NATO member's investigatory team which happens to have a representative of the Kiev regime as a member.

That information was first brought forth by Bellingcat, the Dutch investigation must have followed their lead.
http://www.bellingcat.com/tag/mh17/
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Irrefutable proof: MH17 was downed by BUK Missile in rebel controlled location

Thu Sep 29, 2016 5:30 am

SCAT15F wrote:
Wow. A NATO member nation carries out the "official investigation," and comes up with a result which -oh my- is exactly what the US state department said the day after MH17 was shot down (no investigation required for US intelligence).

Do you honestly believe the US/NATO would allow any other conclusion to be reached by an investigation run by one of its own member states when its sole purpose for existence is to oppose Russia?


According to official rules, Ukraine is the country which should have taken the lead in the investigation, they left it up to The Netherlands, but I guess you would find the outcome more credible if Ukraine was in the lead ;-),

The US had a lot of monitoring planes in the air at the time, and continues to monitoring the planet detecting missile launches, so yes they were looking live as things were evolving. The Dutch-let JIT investigation team had to have collaborating evidence, on source isn't a source and since Russia's 4-y/o response is quite predictable, "I didn't do it, he did", they must have evidence 4 times as good.

Must be a shocker, but Dutch investigators are truly 100% independent. So they could care less what the Americans think and their US state department. I know in Russia things are quite different and prosecution is more like a tool in the Putin arsenal of controlling the Russian state and its oligarchs but not much so in a free society.

You continue to bash everyone, except your beloved Russia, ignoring the facts. Let me finishing up, by this quote:
"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts."
Daniel Patrick Moynihan
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
salttee
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Re: Irrefutable proof: MH17 was downed by BUK Missile in rebel controlled location

Thu Sep 29, 2016 5:41 am

777Jet wrote:
but why were airlines still flying over that particular war zone given the AN26 shoot-down days earlier which the "whole world knew" about to use your term.

Because that's what airlines do, that's what they've always done, that's what they are sure to do in the future. Get over it.

Another thing: MH-17 was almost three miles higher than the AN26 and it was on an international airway at 500kts or so. The AN26 had just finished conducting a military air drop. You try to make it sound like they are parallels.

But congratulations, you win the Monday morning quarterbacking competition. Yet you have to admit, the MAS flight planners were at a disadvantage with you, they were working in real time.
 
salttee
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Re: Irrefutable proof: MH17 was downed by BUK Missile in rebel controlled location

Thu Sep 29, 2016 5:44 am

seahawk wrote:
How much you believe a NATO led investigation, that is a good question.

What NATO led investigation??
 
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atypical
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Re: Irrefutable proof: MH17 was downed by BUK Missile in rebel controlled location

Thu Sep 29, 2016 6:05 am

Dutchy wrote:
SCAT15F wrote:
Wow. A NATO member nation carries out the "official investigation," and comes up with a result which -oh my- is exactly what the US state department said the day after MH17 was shot down (no investigation required for US intelligence).

Do you honestly believe the US/NATO would allow any other conclusion to be reached by an investigation run by one of its own member states when its sole purpose for existence is to oppose Russia?


According to official rules, Ukraine is the country which should have taken the lead in the investigation, they left it up to The Netherlands, but I guess you would find the outcome more credible if Ukraine was in the lead ;-),

The US had a lot of monitoring planes in the air at the time, and continues to monitoring the planet detecting missile launches, so yes they were looking live as things were evolving. The Dutch-let JIT investigation team had to have collaborating evidence, on source isn't a source and since Russia's 4-y/o response is quite predictable, "I didn't do it, he did", they must have evidence 4 times as good.

Must be a shocker, but Dutch investigators are truly 100% independent. So they could care less what the Americans think and their US state department. I know in Russia things are quite different and prosecution is more like a tool in the Putin arsenal of controlling the Russian state and its oligarchs but not much so in a free society.

You continue to bash everyone, except your beloved Russia, ignoring the facts. Let me finishing up, by this quote:
"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts."
Daniel Patrick Moynihan



You are correct but I would like to add some clarification. The "Joint Investigation Team" which is the source of this thread is the criminal investigation team cooperatively formed from several of the countries impacted by the crash. This is a different organization than the Dutch led team that conducted the ICAO Annex 13 investigation. Some people might be assuming the two are the same when they are quite different.
 
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garpd
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Re: Irrefutable proof: MH17 was downed by BUK Missile in rebel controlled location

Thu Sep 29, 2016 6:43 am

Boeing778X wrote:
.......I often wonder what would have happened if there was an A380 overflying the area that day.....


If you mean if an A380 was hit instead, then mostly the same thing would have happened, only there would be twice the body count and a fair bit more wreckage. Russia would still deny any involvement even though their military was crawling all over that part of the Ukraine, they will still have presented various photoshopped images claiming they are real, etc, etc ,etc.
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Re: Irrefutable proof: MH17 was downed by BUK Missile in rebel controlled location

Thu Sep 29, 2016 6:49 am

SCAT15F wrote:
PlanesNTrains wrote:
SCAT15F wrote:
Wow. A NATO member nation carries out the "official investigation," and comes up with a result which -oh my- is exactly what the US state department said the day after MH17 was shot down (no investigation required for US intelligence).

Do you honestly believe the US/NATO would allow any other conclusion to be reached by an investigation run by one of its own member states when its sole purpose for existence is to oppose Russia?


Well, I guess we have another poster that will defend Russia at all costs. Nevermind that we all knew essentially THAT DAY what had happened because of multiple sources. Yes, I know, you'll point out that the US/NATO just manufactured the opposition radio transmissions, video of the BUK launcher being led back to Russia, eyewitness accounts, forensic evidence, Russian propaganda about other aircraft supposedly in the area, and on and on. It's getting almost predictable in these occurrences that a few posters will emerge from the woodwork and try to lead us down an alternative path that invariably defends all things Russia regardless of what evidence has been presented.

It's a sad commentary on the world we live in that a simple social media site becomes infected with these diversions.


The sad commentary is that you and others like you don't tolerate dissent to your opinions and beliefs, which says a lot.


Uh-huh..... :-/
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
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Re: Irrefutable proof: MH17 was downed by BUK Missile in rebel controlled location

Thu Sep 29, 2016 6:51 am

BestWestern wrote:
Shame on Russia to give rebels such powerful weaponry. I don't believe that they set out to down a civil airliner, but disastrous mistakes happen when you give big boy toys to street corner fighters.

It's the Russian military commander who allowed the rebels to use such equipment that should be before The Hague tribunal for war crimes. Bastards.


This is part of why Russia will not admit they were involved. They were not supposed to have "their" anything in the area, this was Russia F***ing Up on a World stage in a very big way. We know what happened, we knew years ago. It's just being confirmed for us now. Russia & the Kremlin all have been well aware of this from day one.

The current President running the lovely country of Russia is out of control, he thinks he lives in a Stalinistic Empire still & will hold nothing back to obtain what his mind decides. His own people will suffer for his misdeeds for many years, while he continues to make aggressive moves towards the US & other Western Nations.

This flight was shot down by rebel forces, that had a truck they had no business possessing & Russia is once again fully guilty & will deny at all cost, there is little truth in what Russia has said about this incident.
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Re: Irrefutable proof: MH17 was downed by BUK Missile in rebel controlled location

Thu Sep 29, 2016 7:00 am

seahawk wrote:
How much you believe a NATO led investigation, that is a good question.


What NATO led investigation would that be exactly? Care to divulge?
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WIederling
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Re: Irrefutable proof: MH17 was downed by BUK Missile in rebel controlled location

Thu Sep 29, 2016 7:45 am

atypical wrote:
SCAT15F wrote:
Was it the illegitimate Neo-Nazi US-backed coup regime in Kiev? Perhaps. Was it a false flag? based on NATO/US history, very possibly.


The level of rhetoric has been around without proof since the beginning. Proof isn't going to come by repeating it enough.

In 2008 NATO rejected issuing a MAP (Membership Action Plan) to Ukraine after Ukraine made an official request for one. So then less than 10 years later NATO goes to the expensive proposition of creating a "coup" to get what was rejected in 2008?

Why would anyone believe such a conspiracy when it ignores the facts (as above), provides an explanation based on circular logic, a premise so broad that anything is possible, or just so outlandish we are required to suspend disbelief permanently?


NULAND. nuf said.

NATO and EU were held back by European members while the US was pushing heavily and continues to do so ( for both NATO and EU membership of the Ukraine ).

Just the idea of a BUK launcher being moved over long distances ( probably passing a range of other BUK launchers on its way
for a single launch and then being moved back ( again past other nearer systems ) to its original position appears to be absurd. The desired effect is to insinuate long time premeditation and planning.

The absolutely immediate blaim response from the US is another indicator that this is some kind of false flag operation.
( More of a LIHOP/MIHOP op than direct false flag like the German "Sender Gleiwitz" thing. The US has a along history of planning and executing ( often in a rather hamfisted fashion ) such things. Neither the Soviets nor the RF are known for such acts.
Murphy is an optimist
 
RIXrat
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Re: Irrefutable proof: MH17 was downed by BUK Missile in rebel controlled location

Thu Sep 29, 2016 8:15 am

The trolls did come out today and it is good to know who they are. I was a foreign correspondent in the former Soviet Union and I see very little political change there, except during Yeltsin's drunken rule. Along came Putin and he declared supremacy for Russia. So now we're back to the USSR again, except under a different name.

Putin's expansionist policies were the reason the Crimea became and issue and many of his "little green men" were quoted to be actual Russian soldiers, instead of peasant rebels with AKs slung over their shoulder. That's another reason that the rebels did not shoot MH-17 out of the sky. They lacked the sophistication. The peasant rebels may have moved the platform from field to field, but a Russian commander and his acquired the target and ordered the kill. I've been to a U.S. Patriot missile site and all the parameters involved cannot be learned in a day.
 
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Re: Irrefutable proof: MH17 was downed by BUK Missile in rebel controlled location

Thu Sep 29, 2016 8:35 am

Don't tell me you think that "Yeltsin's drunken rule" and commensurate sell out of Soviet assets to foreign interests was a good thing (TM) ? ( understandable if you think in terms of advantage to those foreign interests... which fits in with what I think about the jounalistic values of the majority of those correspondents. Embedded mouthpieces.)


Now the peasants actually life in the western Ukraine. the eastern part has more of a Russian background and most of the (heavy) industry.
Also I'd assume better education there. Now who would go career in the military ? country hicks from the west or middle class guys from the east. The split forced by the US propped central government also split the military forces and resources.
Murphy is an optimist
 
a380900
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Re: Irrefutable proof: MH17 was downed by BUK Missile in rebel controlled location

Thu Sep 29, 2016 8:53 am

Salttee has been here 2 months and his posts are almost exclusively political. He cares about aviation the way I care about lipstick.

In Spectre, James Bond asks a little mouse "Who sent you, who do you work for?". I feel like asking that to Salttee.
 
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Re: Irrefutable proof: MH17 was downed by BUK Missile in rebel controlled location

Thu Sep 29, 2016 9:02 am

WIederling wrote:
Don't tell me you think that "Yeltsin's drunken rule" and commensurate sell out of Soviet assets to foreign interests was a good thing (TM) ?

Yeltsin's era was a wasted chance for Russia to become a somewhat standard country with somewhat standard political system, in other words not a underdeveloped tyranny ruled by psychopaths it has always been.


WIederling wrote:
The split forced by the US propped central government also split the military forces and resources.

What??? The "little green men" who first didn't exist and later for some reason did (as per Putin himself) were sent from Russia. The separatists split the country.
 
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Re: Irrefutable proof: MH17 was downed by BUK Missile in rebel controlled location

Thu Sep 29, 2016 9:09 am

The next step i still missing in the investigation. Who was in charge. As I read between the lines the investigation teams have a pretty good picture of this but considering the Russian government approach they wait until they have more full picture and solid proof.

It mentionens "100 Russian soldiers and officers" that can have more detailed information and a specific battalion.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/ ... in-ukraine

Considering how many Russian special troops that were involed in the region in the specific period can this point at a chance it was actually Russian troops serving the equipment at the moment?

As I understand it operators of specified equipment need a training equal more then 2 years in order to use it properly. Would the Russian government put htis in hand of untrained soldiers and not send their own skilled personal?
 
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Re: Irrefutable proof: MH17 was downed by BUK Missile in rebel controlled location

Thu Sep 29, 2016 9:36 am

olle wrote:
As I understand it operators of specified equipment need a training equal more then 2 years in order to use it properly. Would the Russian government put htis in hand of untrained soldiers and not send their own skilled personal?


You make a good point and it is an interesting question. Could that be why Russia is so desperate to deflect the blame? I think it is very likely it was Russian troops manning the BUK launchers and they screwed up. I'll give Russia the benefit of the doubt and suggest that MH17 was an accident. It was sadly in the wrong bit of airspace at the wrong time and was misidentified. Mistakes can happen, we ALL know that.

Russia needs to stop with the obviously fake evidence and baloney stories which change to counter whatever evidence is revealed. Anyone who believes solely in the "evidence" Moscow offers is delusional and misguided.

The evidence in this entire MH17 matter has been seen and considered, the investigation was thorough and took into account Russian claims, but careful study and testing proved what Russia say happened was not possible. There can be no reasonable doubt in the conclusions made in both the Dutch investigation and that of this joint investigation.

Arguing against the face of such overwhelming evidence is like a child being found with chocolate all over their face and still denying they ate it.
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Re: Irrefutable proof: MH17 was downed by BUK Missile in rebel controlled location

Thu Sep 29, 2016 9:50 am

WIederling wrote:
NULAND. nuf said.

No it isn't "nuf said." If you have something real post it in a non-aviation thread so we can see your evidence and discuss it there otherwise this becomes thread hijacking.
 
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Re: Irrefutable proof: MH17 was downed by BUK Missile in rebel controlled location

Thu Sep 29, 2016 10:06 am

olle wrote:
It mentionens "100 Russian soldiers and officers" that can have more detailed information and a specific battalion.


You have to be very careful with this. The JIT only mentions 100 person of interest, nothing about their nationality or occupation. Nobody has been accused yet. I think that it is a good approached, first get the iron class case, then indictment someone. Since Russia is acting like a 4y/o (shifting blame when they got red handed) the world needs to see that Russia and Ukraine rabbles are 100% guilty.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Re: Irrefutable proof: MH17 was downed by BUK Missile in rebel controlled location

Thu Sep 29, 2016 10:27 am

WIederling wrote:
Don't tell me you think that "Yeltsin's drunken rule" and commensurate sell out of Soviet assets to foreign interests was a good thing (TM) ? ( understandable if you think in terms of advantage to those foreign interests... which fits in with what I think about the jounalistic values of the majority of those correspondents. Embedded mouthpieces.)

Now the peasants actually life in the western Ukraine. the eastern part has more of a Russian background and most of the (heavy) industry.
Also I'd assume better education there. Now who would go career in the military ? country hicks from the west or middle class guys from the east. The split forced by the US propped central government also split the military forces and resources.


Now let's see. Uhmmmmm. Yeltsin was corrupt, his successor needed to protect him and his family, they came up with Putin, whom did protect the corrupt Mare of St. Petersburg. Putin himself was in charge of a well fare program to feed the poorest of the poor helping then when they needed the most, non went to them, millions are gone. Remember the bombings in Moscow, which are blamed on Tjetjenien rebbels and one unexploded bomb was found to be placed by the FSB? Just to sell Putin to the Russian population as a "strong" leader with his own little war, killing tens of thousand in the progress.

Ok, now let's see about those foreign interest. Russian oligarchs got most of the factories, oil industry etc. And if they didn't they got their way with the help of the Russian government and its legal system. Just have a look at the Sakhalin-2 project and how the Russian government strong balled them out and gave it to one Russian company. Russia is one of the countries with the most inequality in the world. The median assets of a Russian is less then the median assets of an Indian, while the GNP per person is higher in Russia, which means the top in Russia is a lot wealthier then in India and the middle class is far worse off in Russia.

Now let's talk journalism and the media. I just refer you to the site of Journalism without borders, just have a look at their site (https://rsf.org/en) where Russia is and were the western world is.

Like I said before, for you also the quote:
"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts."
Daniel Patrick Moynihan
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
SwissCanuck
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Re: Irrefutable proof: MH17 was downed by BUK Missile in rebel controlled location

Thu Sep 29, 2016 10:35 am

Animation released by JIT including video and phone calls:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sf6gJ8NDhYA
 
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Re: Irrefutable proof: MH17 was downed by BUK Missile in rebel controlled location

Thu Sep 29, 2016 1:13 pm

WIederling wrote:

Just the idea of a BUK launcher being moved over long distances ( probably passing a range of other BUK launchers on its way
for a single launch and then being moved back ( again past other nearer systems ) to its original position appears to be absurd. The desired effect is to insinuate long time premeditation and planning.

The absolutely immediate blaim response from the US is another indicator that this is some kind of false flag operation.
( More of a LIHOP/MIHOP op than direct false flag like the German "Sender Gleiwitz" thing. The US has a along history of planning and executing ( often in a rather hamfisted fashion ) such things. Neither the Soviets nor the RF are known for such acts.


You have no evidence, only feelings and conspiracy theories because you need to confirm your bias about America. Russia has a longer history of "false flag operations" and America has never killed hundreds of people for a political agenda. Ukraine is not more important than the deaths of hundreds of people. But Putin has no problem killing anyone that stands in his way, including trying to keep control of Ukraine for his cronies.
 
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Re: Irrefutable proof: MH17 was downed by BUK Missile in rebel controlled location

Thu Sep 29, 2016 1:46 pm

PW100 wrote:
eielef wrote:
If I sell you a gun (as in many stores in the US they do), and you decide to shot someone, is not my responsibility.

That is too easy. Better comparison would be this one: you did not sell me just a gun, you sold me a 6000 rounds per minute M61 Vulcan 6-barrel 20mm gun, with plenty of armour penetrating PGU-28 monition. Because I needed a gun for my self protection. Wouldn't you share at least some of the is to blame when my neighbours get killed trying the beast out . . . ?

*thumbsup*; and I was about to reply to him: what if that gun sale is dodgy.......
Potestatem obscuri lateris nescitis
 
SCAT15F
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Re: Irrefutable proof: MH17 was downed by BUK Missile in rebel controlled location

Thu Sep 29, 2016 3:07 pm

From flightglobal:

Flight Safety Foundation backs independent probe

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... ro-429874/
 
mcg
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Re: Irrefutable proof: MH17 was downed by BUK Missile in rebel controlled location

Thu Sep 29, 2016 3:35 pm

I wonder if the missile crew was training by tracking a random target and simply forgot to set the system to 'safe'. The crew tracks the target and executes the missile launch routine and then has an "oh s**t" moment when the weapon actually launches. Training is what soldiers do and it's not unreasonable to guess that someone simply made a terrible error. The Red Army would then go to almost any length to hide the fact that it could make such a terrible mistake.
 
salttee
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Re: Irrefutable proof: MH17 was downed by BUK Missile in rebel controlled location

Thu Sep 29, 2016 3:45 pm

olle wrote:
As I understand it operators of specified equipment need a training equal more then 2 years in order to use it properly. Would the Russian government put htis in hand of untrained soldiers and not send their own skilled personal?
The target selection and missile firing is the easiest part of an AD missile crewman's job. It is quite intuitive and could be taught to a reasonably bright individual in an afternoon. The maintenance part for the operators might take a few weeks of preparation, the deep maintenance personnel could possibly require two years of training but more likely much less than that for those who work in the field. Poorly trained crew could not be a reason that this BUK launcher located itself under the junction of three civilian airways and picked off the first airliner to happen by.

garpd wrote:
You make a good point and it is an interesting question. Could that be why Russia is so desperate to deflect the blame? I think it is very likely it was Russian troops manning the BUK launchers and they screwed up. I'll give Russia the benefit of the doubt and suggest that MH17 was an accident. It was sadly in the wrong bit of airspace at the wrong time and was misidentified. Mistakes can happen, we ALL know that.

I cannot understand why reasonable people (and from your other posts here I consider you a reasonable person) keep bending over backwards to avoid the obvious fact that all the evidence indicates that the shooting down of an airliner was an intentional act by the Russians. The only likely "misidentification" that seems reasonable to propose is that they were actually trying to shoot down the nearby Russian plane so as to give them Casus belli for a full on invasion of Ukraine. But I go with the assumption that MH-370 was the targeted plane simply because Malaysia is such a weak player internationally, and the Russians would probably have shied away from bringing down an airliner from a NATO country.

Why give them the "benefit of doubt"? Why not look at the evidence, (including the immediately implemented attempt at coverup with falsified evidence), in an unbiased neutral manner and accept the conclusion that follows?
Last edited by salttee on Thu Sep 29, 2016 4:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
salttee
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Re: Irrefutable proof: MH17 was downed by BUK Missile in rebel controlled location

Thu Sep 29, 2016 4:00 pm

mcg wrote:
I wonder if the missile crew was training by tracking a random target and simply forgot to set the system to 'safe'. The crew tracks the target and executes the missile launch routine and then has an "oh s**t" moment when the weapon actually launches. Training is what soldiers do and it's not unreasonable to guess that someone simply made a terrible error. The Red Army would then go to almost any length to hide the fact that it could make such a terrible mistake.

yea right, they snuck a BUK TELAR across an international border and then set their radar operator to practicing target acquisition (including use of the launch button) while they had a missile raised into firing position with power on and gyros spinning.

To paraphrase an earlier question asked of me: who do you work for?

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