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LeCoqFrancais
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CAA of Taiwan to launch probe into EVA Air operations during Typhoon Megi

Thu Sep 29, 2016 10:09 pm

Taiwan’s Civil Aviation Authority announced on Sep 28th 2016 that they are investigating Eva Air and its operation over concerns that arose on Sep 27th 2016, when Taiwan was under the influence of Typhoon Megi.
The CAA reported that 45 flights by Eva Air were scheduled to land at Taipei on Sep 27th 2016, 30 of which made landing in Taipei (including those who initially diverted to Hong Kong or Okinawa and then carried on to Taipei), while no other flight was able to operate into or out of Taipei due to weather conditions imposed by Typhoon Meki.
The CAA therefore looks carefully into Eva Air’s dispatch procedures, takeoff and landing standards, fuel and alternate airport planning and compliance with associated safety regulations. Statements were requested from the airline.

http://avherald.com/h?article=49eac853
and
Taiwanese carrier EVA Air has flown into a storm of controversy over its “risky” decision to operate most of its flights as scheduled at the height of a recent typhoon, with several planes landing at Taoyuan International Airport even as other airlines stayed away.
The airline has faced a barrage of criticism from social media users following unconfirmed reports that some of its crew were injured when strong turbulence hit the planes flying into Taoyuan on Tuesday, Taiwan media reported.

http://www.straitstimes.com/asia/east-a ... phoon-megi
--
What is your opinion on this?
Sébastien C. Tourillon
 
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chepos
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Re: CAA of Taiwan to launch probe into EVA Air operations during Typhoon Megi

Thu Sep 29, 2016 10:55 pm

Flew into TPE on Wednesday morning from LAX on BR, I was a bit concerned leaving LAX as the typhoon was supposed to be leaving Taiwan as we were scheduled in. Other than being held on a holding pattern for about 30 mins before landing it was as smooth as silk and not even raining when we landed. Connection out of TPE to BKK was even on time. I was bracing for some moderate turbulence due tp the WX system but not even light chop. The CI flight out of LAX that evening was operating as scheduled as well.
Fly the Flag!!!!
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: CAA of Taiwan to launch probe into EVA Air operations during Typhoon Megi

Thu Sep 29, 2016 11:12 pm

LeCoqFrancais wrote:
What is your opinion on this?

....that we've already seen what can result from careless operation during a Taiwanese typhoon:
Image

Not to say that that was the case here, as the investigation hasn't yet concluded.
But still, not a comforting development. :(


That said, doesn't BR have a flawless safety record, in terms of fatalities?
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
hayzel777
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Re: CAA of Taiwan to launch probe into EVA Air operations during Typhoon Megi

Thu Sep 29, 2016 11:19 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
LeCoqFrancais wrote:
What is your opinion on this?

....that we've already seen what can result from careless operation during a Taiwanese typhoon:
Image

Not to say that that was the case here, as the investigation hasn't yet concluded.
But still, not a comforting development. :(


That said, doesn't BR have a flawless safety record, in terms of fatalities?


yes they do.
 
hayzel777
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Re: CAA of Taiwan to launch probe into EVA Air operations during Typhoon Megi

Thu Sep 29, 2016 11:21 pm

This is not a big deal. BR isn't stupid, they wouldn't operate if it was outside legal limits. The tower wouldn't even let them either. Also, no crew members were injured. BR even came out to say that if anyone were to add on to the false rumors, they would go and sue them.

Everyone is only complaining because it wasn't the most comfortable experience.

BR wasn't the only one. Transasia had one flight that ended up diverting to KNH and Malindo Air had one that diverted to HKG.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: CAA of Taiwan to launch probe into EVA Air operations during Typhoon Megi

Thu Sep 29, 2016 11:49 pm

hayzel777 wrote:
This is not a big deal.

CAAs in conservative-natured countries usually don't publicly announce that they're investigating a private company's operation, unless they see at least something that was unusually disturbing. That has the potentially to negatively affect the company in many ways, and isn't used recklessly.

Again, the investigation hasn't concluded, so there's no assignment of guilt.

But it's way too early to just casually brush it off as "no big deal" -- you simply do not have sufficient information at this time, with which to (accurately) conclude such.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
Flightsimboy
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Re: CAA of Taiwan to launch probe into EVA Air operations during Typhoon Megi

Thu Sep 29, 2016 11:54 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
....that we've already seen what can result from careless operation during a Taiwanese typhoon:
Image

Not to say that that was the case here, as the investigation hasn't yet concluded.
But still, not a comforting development. :(


That said, doesn't BR have a flawless safety record, in terms of fatalities?


As you indicated as was not the case here they departed the wrong runway. The typhoon was not to blame.
LAX772LR - "Answer to goofy question:" in response to my question about the B737-MAX8 being grounded. 48 hours later all B737-MAX8 grounded worldwide. Go figure!!
 
hayzel777
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Re: CAA of Taiwan to launch probe into EVA Air operations during Typhoon Megi

Fri Sep 30, 2016 12:45 am

LAX772LR wrote:
hayzel777 wrote:
This is not a big deal.

CAAs in conservative-natured countries usually don't publicly announce that they're investigating a private company's operation, unless they see at least something that was unusually disturbing. That has the potentially to negatively affect the company in many ways, and isn't used recklessly.

Again, the investigation hasn't concluded, so there's no assignment of guilt.

But it's way too early to just casually brush it off as "no big deal" -- you simply do not have sufficient information at this time, with which to (accurately) conclude such.


Even if they get in trouble, the most serious punishment is a 600k-3mil fine.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: CAA of Taiwan to launch probe into EVA Air operations during Typhoon Megi

Fri Sep 30, 2016 12:57 am

Flightsimboy wrote:
The typhoon was not to blame.

Incorrect.

While the root cause is of course lack of situational awareness, the accident report lists 1) time pressure to take off before the inbound typhoon closed in around CKS Airport, and 2) the condition of taking off in a strong crosswind, low visibility, and slippery runway; as having influenced the flight crew's decision-making ability and the ability to maintain situational awareness.


hayzel777 wrote:
Even if they get in trouble, the most serious punishment is a 600k-3mil fine.

From government, sure.

But again, that's rather shortsighted and jumping-the-gun on your behalf, as you have no idea what the associated near-term loss (due to public perception) will be, if this were to escalate.

Long term, they in all probability will be fine, as pax have short memories.
Near term, definitely not "no big deal" if blame is indeed assigned.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
trex8
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Re: CAA of Taiwan to launch probe into EVA Air operations during Typhoon Megi

Fri Sep 30, 2016 2:49 am

hayzel777 wrote:
BR even came out to say that if anyone were to add on to the false rumors, they would go and sue them.

.

What moron who never had any public relations training came out with this one. Rule #1 in corporate PR, don't ever call the customer or regulatory body a bunch of idiots etc even if they are. Smile,say sweet nothings, turn the other cheek and then call the attorneys but not in public.
 
hayzel777
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Re: CAA of Taiwan to launch probe into EVA Air operations during Typhoon Megi

Fri Sep 30, 2016 2:50 am

trex8 wrote:
hayzel777 wrote:
BR even came out to say that if anyone were to add on to the false rumors, they would go and sue them.

.

What moron who never had any public relations training came out with this one. Rule #1 in corporate PR, don't ever call the customer or regulatory body a bunch of idiots etc even if they are. Smile,say sweet nothings, turn the other cheek and then call the attorneys but not in public.


The spokesperson said this!
 
DeltaB717
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Re: CAA of Taiwan to launch probe into EVA Air operations during Typhoon Megi

Fri Sep 30, 2016 2:55 am

LAX772LR wrote:
Flightsimboy wrote:
The typhoon was not to blame.

Incorrect.

While the root cause is of course lack of situational awareness, the accident report lists 1) time pressure to take off before the inbound typhoon closed in around CKS Airport, and 2) the condition of taking off in a strong crosswind, low visibility, and slippery runway; as having influenced the flight crew's decision-making ability and the ability to maintain situational awareness.


A weather event cannot be held responsible / blamed for the actions of a person or persons during it. What you've outlined is actually that a carrier's corporate and safety culture, along with poor decision-making on the part of the accident crew, caused this crash.
 
hayzel777
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Re: CAA of Taiwan to launch probe into EVA Air operations during Typhoon Megi

Fri Sep 30, 2016 3:57 am

DeltaB717 wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
Flightsimboy wrote:
The typhoon was not to blame.

Incorrect.

While the root cause is of course lack of situational awareness, the accident report lists 1) time pressure to take off before the inbound typhoon closed in around CKS Airport, and 2) the condition of taking off in a strong crosswind, low visibility, and slippery runway; as having influenced the flight crew's decision-making ability and the ability to maintain situational awareness.


A weather event cannot be held responsible / blamed for the actions of a person or persons during it. What you've outlined is actually that a carrier's corporate and safety culture, along with poor decision-making on the part of the accident crew, caused this crash.


To this day, SQ still denies that there crew/airline were at fault and blamed it on the airport/ATC.
 
yonahleung
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Re: CAA of Taiwan to launch probe into EVA Air operations during Typhoon Megi

Fri Sep 30, 2016 4:38 am

Indeed BR has been flying in typhoons where everyone else (in particular CI) has stopped flying for quite a few years already.

It is a national pasttime on Taiwanese and Hong Kong aviation forums to have live posts watching the amusement of BR planes trying to land in TPE or TSA in times of typhoon when schools and offices are all closed. Quite often BR planes would require 3 attempts before they can land (and I have seen BR planes only landed in TSA after 5 attempts in another typhoon this year). Is it within legal limits? Probably it is. Is it safe? I don't know, but it is certainly adding more pressure to the crew and eroding safety margins. Is it comfortable for the passengers? Absolutely not! Reports are that people were throwing up all over the place and the planes were full of sick smell and ointment smell. Even if you can land in the crazy wind, due to the wind exceeding the limits of the jetbridges, passengers remained on the planes for more than 3 hours before they were disembarked.

And for typhoon Megi, it was even worse, out of around 27 flights observed in the live threads coming into Taiwan, 13 had to divert to HKG after multiple attempts at TPE and TSA, 7 went to RMQ and 1 went to MFM. Even if it was safe, this could hardly be a good customer experience having to be throw around in a roller coaster (some passenger reportedly tried to type their wills on the phone) and then diverting into an unexpected airport.
 
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Re: CAA of Taiwan to launch probe into EVA Air operations during Typhoon Megi

Fri Sep 30, 2016 5:18 am

DeltaB717 wrote:
A weather event cannot be held responsible / blamed for the actions of a person or persons during it.

That's your opinion, but it's certainly not one shared by regulators and investigators.

Weather can be contributor to the reaction/decision-making process, particularly those immediately prior fatal incidents:
NZ901 comes to mind.

Yes, nothing is in a vacuum, and training/culture/personal capability are the more direct contributing factors.... but to dismiss weather, is not a realistic assessment.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
hayzel777
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Re: CAA of Taiwan to launch probe into EVA Air operations during Typhoon Megi

Tue Oct 18, 2016 9:39 pm

Disappointed in EVA. Results of investigation have come out.

8 flights were operating out of the legal limit.

BR105(NRT-TPE A330) was the worst. Not only did the pilots exceed the legal flying time, they attempted2 crosswind landings that were outside of the legal limit.

All other flights had pilots that exceeded the legal flight time.

Link is in Chinese
http://m.appledaily.com.tw/realtimenews ... 18/970474/
 
B-HOP
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Re: CAA of Taiwan to launch probe into EVA Air operations during Typhoon Megi

Wed Oct 19, 2016 4:21 pm

Flew to Taipei that night on CX, was delayed from the morning when HK started to became BR parking lot, we were checked in and 3 hours later, we could be released and re-check in to fly later. In customs, I met another crew from CI on the Airbus fleet just arrived from Taipei, they told me company told them operation is halted and they are not going back that day, removing the risk altogether. We arrived just after the fiasco, in fact just before the EVA flight from San Francisco and CI flight from LA, the landing was a lot shaky by nothing beyond that, we did wait a while to get doors opened though. Hope BR would learnt something, but threaten to sue the crew and authorities were one of the most unwise decision, I know there is family infighting hut that is just not on.
Live life to max!!!
 
GamingPolaris
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Re: CAA of Taiwan to launch probe into EVA Air operations during Typhoon Megi

Wed Oct 19, 2016 6:40 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
LeCoqFrancais wrote:
What is your opinion on this?

....that we've already seen what can result from careless operation during a Taiwanese typhoon:
Image

Not to say that that was the case here, as the investigation hasn't yet concluded.
But still, not a comforting development. :(


That said, doesn't BR have a flawless safety record, in terms of fatalities?


The investigation concluded years ago. It was caused by pilot error, nothing else. The pilot mistaken runway 05R for 05L, while Runway 05R was under construction with equipment on the runway. The pilot proceeded to take off, which later on collided with the equipment, causing the aircraft to crash and burst on fire.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: CAA of Taiwan to launch probe into EVA Air operations during Typhoon Megi

Wed Oct 19, 2016 6:55 pm

GamingPolaris wrote:
The investigation concluded years ago. It was caused by pilot error, nothing else. The pilot mistaken runway 05R for 05L, while Runway 05R was under construction with equipment on the runway. The pilot proceeded to take off, which later on collided with the equipment, causing the aircraft to crash and burst on fire.

1) I wasn't referring to SQ006's investigation being the one concluded, I was talking about the current titular probe.
2) That's incorrect, as the 006's investigation did indeed cite weather as a contributing factor.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
hayzel777
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Re: CAA of Taiwan to launch probe into EVA Air operations during Typhoon Megi

Wed Oct 19, 2016 7:31 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
GamingPolaris wrote:
The investigation concluded years ago. It was caused by pilot error, nothing else. The pilot mistaken runway 05R for 05L, while Runway 05R was under construction with equipment on the runway. The pilot proceeded to take off, which later on collided with the equipment, causing the aircraft to crash and burst on fire.

1) I wasn't referring to SQ006's investigation being the one concluded, I was talking about the current titular probe.
2) That's incorrect, as the 006's investigation did indeed cite weather as a contributing factor.


+1, the poor visibility caused the pilot to turn onto the wrong runway.
 
hayzel777
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Re: CAA of Taiwan to launch probe into EVA Air operations during Typhoon Megi

Wed Oct 19, 2016 7:33 pm

B-HOP wrote:
Flew to Taipei that night on CX, was delayed from the morning when HK started to became BR parking lot, we were checked in and 3 hours later, we could be released and re-check in to fly later. In customs, I met another crew from CI on the Airbus fleet just arrived from Taipei, they told me company told them operation is halted and they are not going back that day, removing the risk altogether. We arrived just after the fiasco, in fact just before the EVA flight from San Francisco and CI flight from LA, the landing was a lot shaky by nothing beyond that, we did wait a while to get doors opened though. Hope BR would learnt something, but threaten to sue the crew and authorities were one of the most unwise decision, I know there is family infighting hut that is just not on.


They threatened to sue the people on social media that said that the crew was injured. It's the same as CI, after the union egged the company logo at the Taipei office, they said they would sue every single union member there and the union itself for damage to its reputation.
 
trex8
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Re: CAA of Taiwan to launch probe into EVA Air operations during Typhoon Megi

Wed Oct 19, 2016 8:09 pm

hayzel777 wrote:
B-HOP wrote:
Flew to Taipei that night on CX, was delayed from the morning when HK started to became BR parking lot, we were checked in and 3 hours later, we could be released and re-check in to fly later. In customs, I met another crew from CI on the Airbus fleet just arrived from Taipei, they told me company told them operation is halted and they are not going back that day, removing the risk altogether. We arrived just after the fiasco, in fact just before the EVA flight from San Francisco and CI flight from LA, the landing was a lot shaky by nothing beyond that, we did wait a while to get doors opened though. Hope BR would learnt something, but threaten to sue the crew and authorities were one of the most unwise decision, I know there is family infighting hut that is just not on.


They threatened to sue the people on social media that said that the crew was injured. It's the same as CI, after the union egged the company logo at the Taipei office, they said they would sue every single union member there and the union itself for damage to its reputation.

Theres a HUGE difference between threatening legal action against those for alleging wrongful activity for corporate activity which may contravene government regulations especially ones pertaining to safety and threatening action for potential libel/slander for activity which is only bad publicity.
 
Newbiepilot
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Re: CAA of Taiwan to launch probe into EVA Air operations during Typhoon Megi

Wed Oct 19, 2016 9:31 pm

I find it disturbing that crew both violated duty time restrictions and exceeded crosswind limits. I wonder what the details behind such decisions were. Crews don't takeoff with the intention to violate duty time limits or exceed landings. What happened enroute and were the crews aware of what the situation including winds were?

Some airlines are arguably too conservative with cancellations, but cancelling flights is far better than exceeding a crosswind limit. That is dangerous.
 
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RL777
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Re: CAA of Taiwan to launch probe into EVA Air operations during Typhoon Megi

Wed Oct 19, 2016 9:42 pm

This doesn't reflect well on BR but its something that from what I've read on this site has been going on for quite sometime. Better safe than sorry definitely applies here, and when almost all other carriers are cancelling operations its probably an extremely poor decision to continue.
 
Planetalk
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Re: CAA of Taiwan to launch probe into EVA Air operations during Typhoon Megi

Thu Oct 20, 2016 2:45 pm

RL777 wrote:
This doesn't reflect well on BR but its something that from what I've read on this site has been going on for quite sometime. Better safe than sorry definitely applies here, and when almost all other carriers are cancelling operations its probably an extremely poor decision to continue.


Completely agree; as a nervous flyer this is the kind of things that makes the hairs on the back of my neck stand up. I try to assure myself that the pilots want to live too and therefore won't take any unnecessary risks, but there are far too many incidents where planes try to land in conditions they shouldn't, for that to really be be logical reasoning.

Why do pilots do it? And picking a 'premium' airline doesn't seemt to protect you, twice this year there's been incidents where SQ were the only airline trying to get in to an airport during a typhoon, long after everyone else considered it unsafe. After putting their passengers through hell a couple of times, off they went and diverted. We see accidents such as AA and AF where they landed in conditions they really shouldn't have done.

An appeal to the pilots here, it's really not that important to me that you land at the intended destination! Please, if conditions are so bad just divert and come back later. It's not worth it. If it's that bad that the experience is going to be utterly terrifying, and you know that is likely, I'd rather not go through it, and I think most pax agree. While aviaton may be safer than other forms of transport, it also seems to be the only form quite willing to put it's passengers through a horrendous ordeal in order to get to destination.

i wonder if it's down to the culture of particular pilots, or company culture that 'encourages' them to keep trying?
 
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RL777
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Re: CAA of Taiwan to launch probe into EVA Air operations during Typhoon Megi

Thu Oct 20, 2016 4:54 pm

Planetalk wrote:
RL777 wrote:
This doesn't reflect well on BR but its something that from what I've read on this site has been going on for quite sometime. Better safe than sorry definitely applies here, and when almost all other carriers are cancelling operations its probably an extremely poor decision to continue.


Completely agree; as a nervous flyer this is the kind of things that makes the hairs on the back of my neck stand up. I try to assure myself that the pilots want to live too and therefore won't take any unnecessary risks, but there are far too many incidents where planes try to land in conditions they shouldn't, for that to really be be logical reasoning.

Why do pilots do it? And picking a 'premium' airline doesn't seemt to protect you, twice this year there's been incidents where SQ were the only airline trying to get in to an airport during a typhoon, long after everyone else considered it unsafe. After putting their passengers through hell a couple of times, off they went and diverted. We see accidents such as AA and AF where they landed in conditions they really shouldn't have done.

An appeal to the pilots here, it's really not that important to me that you land at the intended destination! Please, if conditions are so bad just divert and come back later. It's not worth it. If it's that bad that the experience is going to be utterly terrifying, and you know that is likely, I'd rather not go through it, and I think most pax agree. While aviaton may be safer than other forms of transport, it also seems to be the only form quite willing to put it's passengers through a horrendous ordeal in order to get to destination.

i wonder if it's down to the culture of particular pilots, or company culture that 'encourages' them to keep trying?


I'm just guessing because I don't have any hard evidence, but I believe there's a fear of getting reprimanded by the company if they are deemed to have prematurely made a decision on continuing the flight.
 
hayzel777
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Re: CAA of Taiwan to launch probe into EVA Air operations during Typhoon Megi

Thu Oct 20, 2016 5:33 pm

RL777 wrote:
Planetalk wrote:
RL777 wrote:
This doesn't reflect well on BR but its something that from what I've read on this site has been going on for quite sometime. Better safe than sorry definitely applies here, and when almost all other carriers are cancelling operations its probably an extremely poor decision to continue.


Completely agree; as a nervous flyer this is the kind of things that makes the hairs on the back of my neck stand up. I try to assure myself that the pilots want to live too and therefore won't take any unnecessary risks, but there are far too many incidents where planes try to land in conditions they shouldn't, for that to really be be logical reasoning.

Why do pilots do it? And picking a 'premium' airline doesn't seemt to protect you, twice this year there's been incidents where SQ were the only airline trying to get in to an airport during a typhoon, long after everyone else considered it unsafe. After putting their passengers through hell a couple of times, off they went and diverted. We see accidents such as AA and AF where they landed in conditions they really shouldn't have done.

An appeal to the pilots here, it's really not that important to me that you land at the intended destination! Please, if conditions are so bad just divert and come back later. It's not worth it. If it's that bad that the experience is going to be utterly terrifying, and you know that is likely, I'd rather not go through it, and I think most pax agree. While aviaton may be safer than other forms of transport, it also seems to be the only form quite willing to put it's passengers through a horrendous ordeal in order to get to destination.

i wonder if it's down to the culture of particular pilots, or company culture that 'encourages' them to keep trying?


I'm just guessing because I don't have any hard evidence, but I believe there's a fear of getting reprimanded by the company if they are deemed to have prematurely made a decision on continuing the flight.


The pilots are screwed either way. BR105 crew was severely reprimanded, captain demoted and FO must go through the training course again.
 
Tommy525
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Re: CAA of Taiwan to launch probe into EVA Air operations during Typhoon Megi

Thu Oct 20, 2016 5:55 pm

A few thoughts:

1. RE: SQ 6
http://airlinesafety.com/editorials/Singapore006.htm

2. RE: Mandarin Md 11 HKG crash : (Ci is much more aware of dangers of landing/take off in typhoons now)
https://aviation-safety.net/database/re ... 19990822-0

TPE will close when winds exceed a certain parameter. Prior to that its a reactive decision by some airlines. They try to land but sometimes they shouldn't.

3. Discussion on pprune.org . Apparently a lot of CX pilots "like" flying in typhoons.
http://www.pprune.org/fragrant-harbour/ ... ranti.html
 
B-HOP
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Re: CAA of Taiwan to launch probe into EVA Air operations during Typhoon Megi

Fri Oct 21, 2016 8:24 am

Thanks for the correction, still they are desperately hide this under the carpet, you don't see other airlines threaten to sue customers, even Chinese airline
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