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flyyul
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Re: TAP to launch 11 new routes in 2017

Fri Nov 18, 2016 8:48 pm

oceanbeat wrote:
It is YYZ, they are already hiring a District Sales Manager.

could be but I wouldn't put too much stock in that. That's a sales position for Canada so it's not surprising that it is located in Toronto.
TP people already said it would be Montreal first, Toronto later, and that order makes sense to me. YUL is a safer market to enter in Canada.
https://www.dinheirovivo.pt/empresas/663785/[/quote]

If you read Neeleman's comment recently, he mentions both Toronto and Montreal for expansion in 2017. I wouldn't surprise me to see both announced.
 
flyyul
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Re: TAP to launch 11 new routes in 2017

Fri Nov 18, 2016 8:52 pm

used google translate - but from Portuguese papers

"AP está, atualmente, a operar 23 voos por semana para os Estados Unidos. David Neeleman quer triplicar este número para 70 já nos próximos três anos.

“No inverno do ano passado, tínhamos oito voos por semana para os EUA. Hoje, temos 23 por semana. Eu quero levantar esse número para 70 por semana nos próximos três anos”, disse o acionista da TAP, que falava aos jornalistas à margem do Congresso Nacional da Hotelaria e Turismo, a decorrer nos Açores.

Em vista estão destinos como Washington e Chicago, nos EUA, e mesmo outros destinos na América do Norte, como Montreal e Toronto, no Canadá."
 
SATADelay
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Re: TAP to launch 11 new routes in 2017

Fri Nov 18, 2016 9:19 pm

VS4ever wrote:
airbazar wrote:
Just stated yesterday by Mr. Neeleman, TP intends to grow to 70 weekly flights to the U.S. in the next 3 years. He also pointed out the the potential for flights to the Azores from the U.S. So it sounds like we will be seeing some TP flights between the Azores and the U.S.
He also stated that the only reason keeping them from having more flights today is the congestion at LIS.


Just curiousity here. But given that S4 is also going to get 321LR's is there a case for TP and S4 to combine forces. Would seem certain synergys would be there. Especially if the somewhat fanciful rumors of FR showing up in the Azores are to be believed

I am not one for mergers at all, but is there enough of a market for 2 airlines from there, let alone more?

Nice to see TP doing well and I do hope some of these additional frequencies appear at BOS, however space as always might be an issue :)



According to this article in Portuguese, Neeleman is looking to partner up with B6.
[url]
https://eco.pt/2016/11/18/tap-vai-alarg ... os-acores/[/url]
 
flyyul
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Re: TAP to launch 11 new routes in 2017

Fri Nov 18, 2016 9:31 pm

[

If you read Neeleman's comment recently, he mentions both Toronto and Montreal for expansion in 2017. I wouldn't surprise me to see both announced.[/quote]
 
ricardofg
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Re: TAP to launch 11 new routes in 2017

Sat Nov 19, 2016 2:40 am

Have heard possible daily YYZ and 4x seasonal YUL. Does a seasonal route make sense for TP?
 
airbazar
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Re: TAP to launch 11 new routes in 2017

Sat Nov 19, 2016 2:55 am

whywhyzee wrote:
I am just curious (not calling you out, I genuinely am interested to hear your take) as to why YUL would be safer, I always figured YYZ would be given its greater population base, and more feed from AC.

Neither has enough demand for year round service to Portugal so they'll have to rely on beyond connections on both sides.
AC already flies YYZ-LIS. No one flies YUL-LIS. At LIS TP has good connections to North Africa, Spain, Italy, and France. N.Africa especially would be an important market. At YUL pax can connect to multiple Canadian cities on AC including Toronto without backtracking.

flyyul wrote:
If you read Neeleman's comment recently, he mentions both Toronto and Montreal for expansion in 2017. I wouldn't surprise me to see both announced.

I would be surprised because:
1) No aircraft
2) He made clear that they're starting only 1 N.American destination in 2017
3) Strong rumors of starting China service also in 2017
Not ruling it out because of how Brazil is doing but I'd be surprised nonetheless.

Here's something else I just picked up: Neeleman want B6 to fly to the Azores and partner with TP to expand the stopover offering to PDL.
Sorry again, it's in Portuguese only.
https://www.dinheirovivo.pt/empresas/ta ... os-acores/
This is something I've been saying for years. B6 should already be flying to PDL from BOS. This is a no brainer.
 
Thenoflyzone
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Re: TAP to launch 11 new routes in 2017

Sat Nov 19, 2016 4:33 am

airbazar wrote:
whywhyzee wrote:
I am just curious (not calling you out, I genuinely am interested to hear your take) as to why YUL would be safer, I always figured YYZ would be given its greater population base, and more feed from AC.

Neither has enough demand for year round service to Portugal so they'll have to rely on beyond connections on both sides.
AC already flies YYZ-LIS. No one flies YUL-LIS. At LIS TP has good connections to North Africa, Spain, Italy, and France. N.Africa especially would be an important market. At YUL pax can connect to multiple Canadian cities on AC including Toronto without backtracking.


TS serves YUL-LIS on a summer seasonal basis. It was 4x weekly during peak summer, and the route will be served year round as of summer 2017. So not entirely negligible.

http://www.routesonline.com/news/38/air ... f-16sep16/

As for YYZ-LIS, both TS and Azores Airlines fly the route non stop year round. Rouge is seasonal. TP would be the 4th carrier operating the route, so there is definitely demand for year round service.
us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
 
airbazar
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Re: TAP to launch 11 new routes in 2017

Mon Nov 21, 2016 1:11 am

TS starting year round service is an interesting development to watch. In Boston where SATA is well established, they still don't serve LIS year round. Granted, the market here is slightly more heavy towards the Azores than the mainland. IMO, S4 and TS cater to a different type of passenger IMO, compared to AC and TP. For example, TP's presence in BOS has had no impact on SATA even though TP had been code-sharing with SATA for years on the BOS-LIS route.
As you said, counting all carriers, TP would be the 4th carrier in YYZ. In a relatively small market (YYZ-LIS), I'm skeptical of that being good for them at this point but we shall see.
 
RacheyFlies
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Re: TAP to launch 11 new routes in 2017

Mon Nov 21, 2016 1:13 am

To me the A330neo will fly to Asia such as NRT, ICN, BKK, SIN, KUL and more.
The best plane I've flown is an A380. They were the biggest and the best than other plane I've been on. :lol:
 
oceanbeat
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Re: TAP to launch 11 new routes in 2017

Wed Nov 23, 2016 2:42 pm

From an insider...

Operations YYZ-LIS will start in the summer 2017 5 x weekly. Will reduce to 3 x weekly in the winter. Equipment A330 -200 / 300.

They are eyeing YUL as well but nothing is still defined.
 
whywhyzee
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Re: TAP to launch 11 new routes in 2017

Wed Nov 23, 2016 2:51 pm

[*][u][u][/u][/u]
airbazar wrote:
TS starting year round service is an interesting development to watch. In Boston where SATA is well established, they still don't serve LIS year round. Granted, the market here is slightly more heavy towards the Azores than the mainland. IMO, S4 and TS cater to a different type of passenger IMO, compared to AC and TP. For example, TP's presence in BOS has had no impact on SATA even though TP had been code-sharing with SATA for years on the BOS-LIS route.
As you said, counting all carriers, TP would be the 4th carrier in YYZ. In a relatively small market (YYZ-LIS), I'm skeptical of that being good for them at this point but we shall see.


Given that in all likelihood, TAP will enter the YYZ market as the 4th carrier on the route, it certainly must be a small market. Skeptics is one thing, but if airlines are serving the market, that speaks volumes to the strength of said market. They are in the business to make money, if the market wasn't large enough to support the route based on their analysis, this discussion wouldn't be taking place.

This is completely unscientific, however, there is a very large Portuguese community in Toronto, of course, it does not directly correlate to people purchasing tickets, however, it certainly helps.
 
airbazar
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Re: TAP to launch 11 new routes in 2017

Wed Nov 23, 2016 4:22 pm

oceanbeat wrote:
From an insider...
Operations YYZ-LIS will start in the summer 2017 5 x weekly. Will reduce to 3 x weekly in the winter. Equipment A330 -200 / 300.
They are eyeing YUL as well but nothing is still defined.

Interesting. But they don't have any A333's so it would be an A332.
whywhyzee wrote:
Given that in all likelihood, TAP will enter the YYZ market as the 4th carrier on the route, it certainly must be a small market. Skeptics is one thing, but if airlines are serving the market, that speaks volumes to the strength of said market. They are in the business to make money, if the market wasn't large enough to support the route based on their analysis, this discussion wouldn't be taking place.

True :)
But there's only 1 year-round carrier on the route and it only operates 1x weekly, and that's TS. So you can't say it's a huge O&D market year-round. We know that VFR traffic to Portugal is very heavy towards Summer and Christmas. YYZ/YUL won't be any different. The way to make the route stand year-round is by expanding with connecting passengers. But YYZ has no lack of flights to Europe and beyond with Star Alliance already so this will be interesting to watch.
S4 operates via PDL and also just 1x weekly.
AC is Summer only.
So TP alone, with the above rumored 5x/3x weekly, will about triple the offering on the route. Personally I think TP stands a better chance because they can offer connections on both sides but they will have a hard time getting premium *A customers away from the AC/LH JV.
 
oceanbeat
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Re: TAP to launch 11 new routes in 2017

Wed Nov 23, 2016 6:39 pm

Given that in all likelihood, TAP will enter the YYZ market as the 4th carrier on the route, it certainly must be a small market. Skeptics is one thing, but if airlines are serving the market, that speaks volumes to the strength of said market. They are in the business to make money, if the market wasn't large enough to support the route based on their analysis, this discussion wouldn't be taking place.

This is completely unscientific, however, there is a very large Portuguese community in Toronto, of course, it does not directly correlate to people purchasing tickets, however, it certainly helps.[/quote]

TAP has a strong presence in Africa which an under served MARKET in YYZ. This is a market where they could do really well. KLM certainly sustains its operation from this market.
 
flyyul
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Re: TAP to launch 11 new routes in 2017

Wed Nov 23, 2016 7:31 pm

oceanbeat wrote:
Given that in all likelihood, TAP will enter the YYZ market as the 4th carrier on the route, it certainly must be a small market. Skeptics is one thing, but if airlines are serving the market, that speaks volumes to the strength of said market. They are in the business to make money, if the market wasn't large enough to support the route based on their analysis, this discussion wouldn't be taking place.

This is completely unscientific, however, there is a very large Portuguese community in Toronto, of course, it does not directly correlate to people purchasing tickets, however, it certainly helps.


TAP has a strong presence in Africa which an under served MARKET in YYZ. This is a market where they could do really well. KLM certainly sustains its operation from this market.[/quote]


TAP has a presence to where in Africa exactly? ACC? They don't serve South Africa which is where YYZ has strength.

If you're talking North Africa (CMN, ALG) - then YYZ is not the right market for them to focus on.
 
airbazar
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Re: TAP to launch 11 new routes in 2017

Wed Nov 23, 2016 8:04 pm

oceanbeat wrote:
TAP has a strong presence in Africa which an under served MARKET in YYZ. This is a market where they could do really well. KLM certainly sustains its operation from this market.

Toronto has very little African population. Not a single African ethnic group factors in the top 20. Black-Canadians in general, came from the Caribbean, not Africa, so their ties to Africa are non-existent. Montreal is the city with the largest African immigration, mostly from North Africa. Ironically the Portuguese are likely to be the largest "African" group in Toronto since a large percentage of them came from Mozambique, Angola, and S.Africa following the Portuguese revolution of 1975. But they no longer have ties to those countries.
TP's African network is predominantly North Africa and Portuguese speaking Africa, sprinkled with a couple of destinations like DKR and ACC. That's a market more geared towards YUL, instead of YYZ and one of the reasons why I think that YUL is a lower risk route.The market to Algeria and Morocco from YUL if far greater than the market from YYZ to Portugal.
 
oceanbeat
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Re: TAP to launch 11 new routes in 2017

Wed Nov 23, 2016 8:52 pm

airbazar wrote:
oceanbeat wrote:
TAP has a strong presence in Africa which an under served MARKET in YYZ. This is a market where they could do really well. KLM certainly sustains its operation from this market.

Toronto has very little African population. Not a single African ethnic group factors in the top 20. Black-Canadians in general, came from the Caribbean, not Africa, so their ties to Africa are non-existent. Montreal is the city with the largest African immigration, mostly from North Africa. Ironically the Portuguese are likely to be the largest "African" group in Toronto since a large percentage of them came from Mozambique, Angola, and S.Africa following the Portuguese revolution of 1975. But they no longer have ties to those countries.
TP's African network is predominantly North Africa and Portuguese speaking Africa, sprinkled with a couple of destinations like DKR and ACC. That's a market more geared towards YUL, instead of YYZ and one of the reasons why I think that YUL is a lower risk route.The market to Algeria and Morocco from YUL if far greater than the market from YYZ to Portugal.


I don't know where you got your numbers but according with the census of 2006 torontonians born in Africa were 117.245 almost at par with latin americans and middle easterns, and this number is lacking 10 years of immigration. As I agree with you that Montreal has the largest north africa immigrants "Morocco, Algeria". Toronto has the biggest overall in all Canada.

Overall, there were almost 175,000 people of African origin living in Ontario in 2001, while there almost 50,000 in Quebec, 25,000 in British Columbia and 23,000 in Alberta. Canadians of African origin in Ontario make up a larger percentage of the provincial population there than they do in any other province or territory In 2001, people of African descent made up almost 2% of the population in Ontario, while they represented close to 1% of that in each of Quebec, British Columbia, Alberta, Nova Scotia and Manitoba.

Further, the large majority of the African population resides in one of Canada’s major metropolitan areas. In fact, in 2001, 41% of the overall African ethnic community in Canada lived in Toronto. That year, those who indicated they had African ethnic origins made up 3% of the populations in both Toronto and Halifax, while they made up 2% of all those living in Montreal and 1% of those in each of Vancouver, Calgary, Edmonton, and Ottawa.


Keep in mind as well, that a market is not only determined by the ethnic travelers, Canada has a big mining industry in Africa which means business travelers equal high yield tickets.

http://www.statcan.gc.ca/tables-tableaux/sum-som/l01/cst01/demo35c-eng.htm

http://cidpnsi.ca/canadian-mining-in-africa-2/
 
LH648
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Re: TAP to launch 11 new routes in 2017

Wed Nov 23, 2016 9:36 pm

TAP is looking for District Sales Manager in Toronto, so...

https://www.linkedin.com/jobs/view/237485165
 
flyyul
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Re: TAP to launch 11 new routes in 2017

Wed Nov 23, 2016 9:57 pm

oceanbeat wrote:
airbazar wrote:
oceanbeat wrote:
TAP has a strong presence in Africa which an under served MARKET in YYZ. This is a market where they could do really well. KLM certainly sustains its operation from this market.

Toronto has very little African population. Not a single African ethnic group factors in the top 20. Black-Canadians in general, came from the Caribbean, not Africa, so their ties to Africa are non-existent. Montreal is the city with the largest African immigration, mostly from North Africa. Ironically the Portuguese are likely to be the largest "African" group in Toronto since a large percentage of them came from Mozambique, Angola, and S.Africa following the Portuguese revolution of 1975. But they no longer have ties to those countries.
TP's African network is predominantly North Africa and Portuguese speaking Africa, sprinkled with a couple of destinations like DKR and ACC. That's a market more geared towards YUL, instead of YYZ and one of the reasons why I think that YUL is a lower risk route.The market to Algeria and Morocco from YUL if far greater than the market from YYZ to Portugal.


I don't know where you got your numbers but according with the census of 2006 torontonians born in Africa were 117.245 almost at par with latin americans and middle easterns, and this number is lacking 10 years of immigration. As I agree with you that Montreal has the largest north africa immigrants "Morocco, Algeria". Toronto has the biggest overall in all Canada.

Overall, there were almost 175,000 people of African origin living in Ontario in 2001, while there almost 50,000 in Quebec, 25,000 in British Columbia and 23,000 in Alberta. Canadians of African origin in Ontario make up a larger percentage of the provincial population there than they do in any other province or territory In 2001, people of African descent made up almost 2% of the population in Ontario, while they represented close to 1% of that in each of Quebec, British Columbia, Alberta, Nova Scotia and Manitoba.

Further, the large majority of the African population resides in one of Canada’s major metropolitan areas. In fact, in 2001, 41% of the overall African ethnic community in Canada lived in Toronto. That year, those who indicated they had African ethnic origins made up 3% of the populations in both Toronto and Halifax, while they made up 2% of all those living in Montreal and 1% of those in each of Vancouver, Calgary, Edmonton, and Ottawa.


Keep in mind as well, that a market is not only determined by the ethnic travelers, Canada has a big mining industry in Africa which means business travelers equal high yield tickets.

http://www.statcan.gc.ca/tables-tableaux/sum-som/l01/cst01/demo35c-eng.htm

http://cidpnsi.ca/canadian-mining-in-africa-2/




You haven't answered my question. No doubt Toronto has a larger multi-cultural ethnic characteristic to it vs. Montreal. This is not a Montreal vs Toronto debate.

Your claim was that Africa was a logical reason behind TP selection for YYZ. Which African destination served by TP is relevant for the YYZ market.

The answer is none. TP has good coverage in North Africa (not relevant for YYZ), and LAD (not very relevant for YYZ). The coverage to LOS/ACC/NBO/JNB/CPT is poor, at best.
 
airbazar
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Re: TAP to launch 11 new routes in 2017

Thu Nov 24, 2016 12:42 am

oceanbeat wrote:
I don't know where you got your numbers but according with the census of 2006 torontonians born in Africa were 117.245 almost at par with latin americans and middle easterns, and this number is lacking 10 years of immigration. As I agree with you that Montreal has the largest north africa immigrants "Morocco, Algeria". Toronto has the biggest overall in all Canada.

Same place you got yours.
http://www12.statcan.gc.ca/nhs-enm/2011 ... E=&VNAMEF=

A couple hundred thousand people from the entire continent of Africa is an insignificant number, especially when there are no significant economic or business ties and the market is predominantly VFR. I didn't say that there were none. I said "Toronto has very little African population. Not a single African ethnic group factors in the top 20". There are more Chinese, Italian, Portuguese, Indians, English, Irish, etc, etc, etc than there are people from Africa, let alone from a single African nation. There's a reason why YYZ doesn't have any flights to Africa.
 
oceanbeat
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Re: TAP to launch 11 new routes in 2017

Thu Nov 24, 2016 2:54 am

airbazar wrote:
oceanbeat wrote:
I don't know where you got your numbers but according with the census of 2006 torontonians born in Africa were 117.245 almost at par with latin americans and middle easterns, and this number is lacking 10 years of immigration. As I agree with you that Montreal has the largest north africa immigrants "Morocco, Algeria". Toronto has the biggest overall in all Canada.

Same place you got yours.
http://www12.statcan.gc.ca/nhs-enm/2011 ... E=&VNAMEF=

A couple hundred thousand people from the entire continent of Africa is an insignificant number, especially when there are no significant economic or business ties and the market is predominantly VFR. I didn't say that there were none. I said "Toronto has very little African population. Not a single African ethnic group factors in the top 20". There are more Chinese, Italian, Portuguese, Indians, English, Irish, etc, etc, etc than there are people from Africa, let alone from a single African nation. There's a reason why YYZ doesn't have any flights to Africa.


Oh really?...all this time I thought Ethiopian was an African carrier. Thank your for enlighting me but I think we are missing the point here. This post is about TAP, not about Canada -Africa market.
 
RacheyFlies
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Re: TAP to launch 11 new routes in 2017

Thu Nov 24, 2016 3:23 am

The 3 destination in Africa might be JNB, LOS and CPT.
The best plane I've flown is an A380. They were the biggest and the best than other plane I've been on. :lol:
 
upwardfacing
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Re: TAP to launch 11 new routes in 2017

Thu Nov 24, 2016 3:34 am

Is TP primarily about immigrant/VFR traffic? Is there a niche that's really worth tapping into at YYZ or YUL, given that the LH/AC/UA JV already covers so much ground?
 
SCQ83
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Re: TAP to launch 11 new routes in 2017

Thu Nov 24, 2016 8:26 am

I think you are overthinking the African thing.

TAP has a very large network in Southern Europe. Spain (plenty of secondary airports), France (a lot of VFR links between Portugal and France, hence their large network in France) and Italy. Anything from Bologna to Valencia to Marseilles.

Having flown only once TP intercontinental (LIS-EWR-LIS) my impression (of course this is only one flight, so completely anecdotical) is that there were plenty of French, Italians and Spaniards as well as American tourists. I don't think how YYZ-LIS would be different. They could target Canadian cruises tourists to VCE or BCN, Europeans living in Ontario (including the large Portuguese diaspora), so no need to rely on African connections.
 
airbazar
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Re: TAP to launch 11 new routes in 2017

Thu Nov 24, 2016 2:07 pm

airbazar wrote:
oceanbeat wrote:
Oh really?...all this time I thought Ethiopian was an African carrier. Thank your for enlighting me but I think we are missing the point here. This post is about TAP, not about Canada -Africa market.

ET flies via LHR. Last I checked LHR was not in Africa. Ok, only in 1 direction. Nevertheless, only 1 flight 3x weekly with a *A hub at either end, doesn't really change the argument does it? And yes the post is about TP and this particular discussion is about what type of market TP would tap into with a potential route to YYZ vs. YUL.
 
Airontario
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Re: TAP to launch 11 new routes in 2017

Thu Nov 24, 2016 2:13 pm

airbazar wrote:
oceanbeat wrote:
Oh really?...all this time I thought Ethiopian was an African carrier. Thank your for enlighting me but I think we are missing the point here. This post is about TAP, not about Canada -Africa market.

ET flies YYZ-LHR. Last I checked LHR was not in Africa. Care to name any more African routes from YYZ?


Funny, as I flew YYZ-ADD a month ago on ET.

MS also has a YYZ-CAI route.
 
airbazar
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Re: TAP to launch 11 new routes in 2017

Thu Nov 24, 2016 2:18 pm

Airontario wrote:
airbazar wrote:
oceanbeat wrote:
Oh really?...all this time I thought Ethiopian was an African carrier. Thank your for enlighting me but I think we are missing the point here. This post is about TAP, not about Canada -Africa market.

ET flies YYZ-LHR. Last I checked LHR was not in Africa. Care to name any more African routes from YYZ?


Funny, as I flew YYZ-ADD a month ago on ET.

MS also has a YYZ-CAI route.

I stand corrected then. Obviously the non-daily nature of the flights caused me to miss them.
 
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PSG55
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Re: TAP to launch 11 new routes in 2017

Thu Nov 24, 2016 2:30 pm

RacheyFlies wrote:
The 3 destination in Africa might be JNB, LOS and CPT.


Would love to see TP enter the CPT market. I used to live there and there is a very large Portuguese community in the city and surrounds. Sadly, I don't think TP will serve South Africa outside of JHB which caters for the family ties but also any business that goes on between the two countries. Not sure there's enough tourist demand in Portugal for CPT to survive on its own.
 
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Rajahdhani
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Re: TAP to launch 11 new routes in 2017

Thu Nov 24, 2016 6:00 pm

airbazar wrote:
Airontario wrote:
airbazar wrote:
ET flies YYZ-LHR. Last I checked LHR was not in Africa. Care to name any more African routes from YYZ?


Funny, as I flew YYZ-ADD a month ago on ET.

MS also has a YYZ-CAI route.

I stand corrected then. Obviously the non-daily nature of the flights caused me to miss them.


..and this harkens back to a point you made earlier, and that almost everyone here agrees on - the African component of TAP's yeilds, to YYZ, are likely small - and made less significant by the presence of both ET and MS and the Star Alliance hub.

Knocking it back to where I think you were headed;

"There are more Chinese, Italian, Portuguese, Indians, English, Irish, etc, etc, etc than there are people from Africa, let alone from a single African nation. There's a reason why YYZ doesn't have any flights to Africa."

So, could AC's fortress hub provide enough feed to incentivize a flight, from TAP? If so, should TAP then develop greater footprints in China, Italy, domestically, India, England, Ireland etc, etc, etc?

It would add some credence to the previously popular idea (though, perhaps unprofitable then) that TAP should have opened routes to China.

India would be an interesting add, as AI's DEL and BOM hubs could provide decent support.

That said, the domestic/Italian/Irish, English (well, let's see what Brexit brings), markets are essentially the same - and the best working models are the low cost ones. Neeleman has built his career on such a model, and his leadership, at TAP is likley to effect it away from making moves such as India or China. From a cost perspective (and save for launching routes where they have no competition - i.e. secondary cities in India, to non-hub cities in China) the addition of Indian or Chinese routes are likely to be lower yielding than would their Trans-Atlantic services. Whatever alliance memberships they share with AI (in India) or CA (in China) will not trump the effectiveness of the essentially merged TAP-Azul entity, or their close relationship with B6, or their StarAlliance partners - AC or UA, or the Brazilian Market, or the higher aircraft usage they can accomplish on the Trans-Atlantic market. Essentially, adding Neeleman increased the barrier, by which expansion outside of the Atlantic market, would have to overcome - to be profitable to operate. For every A339 that could be used on a LIS-DEL run, it could be used better (and in a more proven, higher yielding manner) on a run to Brazil, or JFK, or perhaps YUL.

So, outside of Asia (or, rather, within the buffer of Neeleman's zone of profit/Star Alliance pulls in the Americas) where would be best for TP to expand?

I agree that TP should consider YUL first, prior to YYZ. However, is it not conceivable that YYZ would provide decent yields, if it essentially were a hub-hub route (with TP pulling on AC's hub at YYZ, and a {as you proposed) a better regional footprint at LIS) it would trump the business case of many other North American cities. I agree with your concerns though - what yields/segment of the market will TP pull from, especially if it has to compete against Rouge, AirTransat, and Azores Airlines. Would TP be able to command a price premium (and/or offer premium services) where essentially AC decided to not bother?
 
airbazar
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Re: TAP to launch 11 new routes in 2017

Fri Nov 25, 2016 1:35 pm

Rajahdhani wrote:
I agree that TP should consider YUL first, prior to YYZ. However, is it not conceivable that YYZ would provide decent yields, if it essentially were a hub-hub route (with TP pulling on AC's hub at YYZ, and a {as you proposed) a better regional footprint at LIS) it would trump the business case of many other North American cities. I agree with your concerns though - what yields/segment of the market will TP pull from, especially if it has to compete against Rouge, AirTransat, and Azores Airlines. Would TP be able to command a price premium (and/or offer premium services) where essentially AC decided to not bother?

TP will be flying to both YYZ and YUL within the next 2 Summers. There's no question about that. The original plan was to start YUL in 2018 and later expand to YYZ. There was no talk of China routes and in fact the new administration canceled the A350 order in favor of the A330NEO because of that change in strategy towards building TP as a major TATL airline. As recent as this past August, YUL was still being talked about as the first of the 2 so something has changed at TP very recently. Not only do the rumors now point to YYZ, but there are also strong rumors that they will introduce flights to China.
YUL and YYZ are 2 very different markets for TP in my opinion. I admit that I'm not overly familiar with either market but my impression is that YYZ has more Portuguese VFR as well as the potential for more premium passengers due to it being the business capital of Canada. But it faces a huge amount of competition and the Portuguese VFR component if very seasonal. Africa is not a factor here because Toronto, like many North American cities does not have a huge African immigrant component and TP does not have much of a presence in English speaking Africa anyway. YUL is a smaller market but IMO it also faces less competition to markets that TP serves well: Italy, France, Spain, Morocco and Algeria. YUL also taps into the Ottawa market, which I'm even less familiar with but it's a market nonetheless.
 
ricardofg
Posts: 592
Joined: Wed Feb 23, 2005 4:09 am

Re: TAP to launch 11 new routes in 2017

Sat Dec 03, 2016 4:22 am

Should we expect an announcement soon? Anything loaded in GDS?
 
stationmanager
Posts: 77
Joined: Sat Sep 16, 2006 5:22 am

Re: TAP to launch 11 new routes in 2017

Tue Dec 06, 2016 2:28 pm

Some new routes launched today!

Alicante
Bucharest
Budapest
Stuttgart
Gran Canaria
 
stationmanager
Posts: 77
Joined: Sat Sep 16, 2006 5:22 am

Re: TAP to launch 11 new routes in 2017

Tue Dec 06, 2016 3:22 pm

Another one is Toronto.

A TAP vai passar a voar a partir de 10 de Junho para Toronto, no Canadá, com cinco frequências por semana, anunciou Fernando Pinto num encontro com jornalistas.

O presidente a companhia aérea revelou que a partir de 10 de Junho a TAP passará também a oferecer um voo diário para Las Palmas, assim como para Alicante.

Para Estugarda, a TAP passará a oferecer um voo bi-diário naquela data. Fernando Pinto revelou que a companhia voltará também a voar para Bucareste e para Budapeste a 1 de Julho.

Também as ligações entre Lisboa e Faro serão reforçadas, bem como a operação para Madrid (a partir do Porto), Manchester, Moscovo, Dusseldorf. Fernando Pinto salientou que em Julho do próximo ano a TAP terá mais 1.176 voos face a Julho de 2016, o que corresponde a mais 272 mil lugares.

Ao mesmo tempo, a TAP reforça a sua operação para Madrid (a partir do Porto), Manchester, Moscovo, Dusseldorf e Faro, podendo este aumento da oferta da companhia incluir, em breve, ainda mais novidades.

Para fazer face a este programa de crescimento, a frota da TAP será reforçada em 2017 com a entrada em operação de um novo avião de longo curso (A330), dois de médio curso (A320F) e mais quatro (Embraer) que integrarão a frota regional da TAP Express, passando de um total de 80 para 87 aeronaves.
 
tff
Posts: 82
Joined: Mon May 09, 2011 3:33 pm

Re: TAP to launch 11 new routes in 2017

Tue Dec 06, 2016 4:28 pm

Here are the details:

- YYZ (5x weekly, late afternoon departure ex-LIS, late night departure ex-YYZ, A332 operated):

[KVS Tool 8.3.1/Diamond - Timetable/DE]
LIS  Lisbon Portela-Lisboa PT [LPPT]
YYZ  Toronto Lester B Pearson Intl ON CA [CYYZ]

Carrier    Flight  From  Depart    To    Arrive    A/C  St  Frequency | Dur'n | Dep T | Arr T | Effect | Ending | Exceptions
---------  ------  ----  --------  ----  --------  ---  --  ----------------------------------------------------------------
TP         259     LIS   19:05     YYZ   22:20     332  0   1-3-567     08:15       1       1   10 Jun   01 Oct

[KVS Tool 8.3.1/Diamond - Timetable/DE]
YYZ  Toronto Lester B Pearson Intl ON CA [CYYZ]
LIS  Lisbon Portela-Lisboa PT [LPPT]

Carrier    Flight  From  Depart    To    Arrive    A/C  St  Frequency | Dur'n | Dep T | Arr T | Effect | Ending | Exceptions
---------  ------  ----  --------  ----  --------  ---  --  ----------------------------------------------------------------
TP         258     YYZ   00:10     LIS   12:15     332  0   12-4-67     07:05       1       1   08 Jul   26 Sep


- BUD (daily, of which two are red-eyes and five are daylight, A32X operated):

[KVS Tool 8.3.1/Diamond - Timetable/DE]
LIS  Lisbon Portela-Lisboa PT [LPPT]
BUD  Budapest Ferenc Liszt/Ferihegy Intl HU [LHBP]

Carrier    Flight  From  Depart    To    Arrive    A/C  St  Frequency | Dur'n | Dep T | Arr T | Effect | Ending | Exceptions
---------  ------  ----  --------  ----  --------  ---  --  ----------------------------------------------------------------
TP         1312    LIS   10:35     BUD   15:05     319  0   1234--7     03:30       1      2A   02 Jul   25 Sep
TP         1310    LIS   23:55     BUD   04:25 +1  319  0   ----56-     03:30       1      2A   01 Jul   23 Sep

[KVS Tool 8.3.1/Diamond - Timetable/DE]
BUD  Budapest Ferenc Liszt/Ferihegy Intl HU [LHBP]
LIS  Lisbon Portela-Lisboa PT [LPPT]

Carrier    Flight  From  Depart    To    Arrive    A/C  St  Frequency | Dur'n | Dep T | Arr T | Effect | Ending | Exceptions
---------  ------  ----  --------  ----  --------  ---  --  ----------------------------------------------------------------
TP         1311    BUD   05:50     LIS   08:35     319  0   -----67     03:45      2A       1   02 Jul   23 Sep
TP         1315    BUD   15:50     LIS   18:35     319  0   1234--7     03:45      2A       1   02 Jul   25 Sep


- OTP (6 weekly, of which five are red-eyes and one is daylight, A32X operated):

[KVS Tool 8.3.1/Diamond - Timetable/DE]
LIS  Lisbon Portela-Lisboa PT [LPPT]
OTP  Bucharest Henri Coanda/Otopeni Intl RO [LROP]
MON  10 Jul 2017 - 17 Jul 2017

Carrier    Flight  From  Depart    To    Arrive    A/C  St  Frequency | Dur'n | Dep T | Arr T | Effect | Ending | Exceptions
---------  ------  ----  --------  ----  --------  ---  --  ----------------------------------------------------------------
TP         1324    LIS   00:15     OTP   06:15     319  0   1-34-67     04:00       1       -   02 Jul   24 Sep
TP         1322    LIS   10:45     OTP   16:45     320  0   ----5--     04:00       1       -   07 Jul   22 Sep

[KVS Tool 8.3.1/Diamond - Timetable/DE]
OTP  Bucharest Henri Coanda/Otopeni Intl RO [LROP]
LIS  Lisbon Portela-Lisboa PT [LPPT]

Carrier    Flight  From  Depart    To    Arrive    A/C  St  Frequency | Dur'n | Dep T | Arr T | Effect | Ending | Exceptions
---------  ------  ----  --------  ----  --------  ---  --  ----------------------------------------------------------------
TP         1325    OTP   07:00     LIS   09:35     319  0   1-34-67     04:35       -       1   02 Jul   24 Sep
TP         1323    OTP   17:30     LIS   20:05     320  0   ----5--     04:35       -       1   07 Jul   22 Sep


- STR (twice daily, of which one is a night stop, E90 operated):

[KVS Tool 8.3.1/Diamond - Timetable/DE]
LIS  Lisbon Portela-Lisboa PT [LPPT]
STR  Stuttgart Echterdingen DE [EDDS]

Carrier    Flight  From  Depart    To    Arrive    A/C  St  Frequency | Dur'n | Dep T | Arr T | Effect | Ending | Exceptions
---------  ------  ----  --------  ----  --------  ---  --  ----------------------------------------------------------------
TP/NI      522     LIS   13:45     STR   18:00     E90  0   1234567     03:15       1       1   10 Jun   28 Oct
TP/NI      524     LIS   19:05     STR   23:20     E90  0   1234567     03:15       1       1   10 Jun   23 Sep

[KVS Tool 8.3.1/Diamond - Timetable/DE]
STR  Stuttgart Echterdingen DE [EDDS]
LIS  Lisbon Portela-Lisboa PT [LPPT]

Carrier    Flight  From  Depart    To    Arrive    A/C  St  Frequency | Dur'n | Dep T | Arr T | Effect | Ending | Exceptions
---------  ------  ----  --------  ----  --------  ---  --  ----------------------------------------------------------------
TP/NI      527     STR   06:00     LIS   08:10     E90  0   1234567     03:10       1       1   11 Jun   24 Sep
TP/NI      523     STR   18:40     LIS   20:50     E90  0   1234567     03:10       1       1   10 Jun   28 Oct


- ALC (daily, AT7 operated):

[KVS Tool 8.3.1/Diamond - Timetable/DE]
LIS  Lisbon Portela-Lisboa PT [LPPT]
ALC  Alicante ES [LEAL]

Carrier    Flight  From  Depart    To    Arrive    A/C  St  Frequency | Dur'n | Dep T | Arr T | Effect | Ending | Exceptions
---------  ------  ----  --------  ----  --------  ---  --  ----------------------------------------------------------------
TP/WI      1122    LIS   09:40     ALC   12:45     AT7  0   1234567     02:05       1       -   10 Jun   28 Oct

[KVS Tool 8.3.1/Diamond - Timetable/DE]
ALC  Alicante ES [LEAL]
LIS  Lisbon Portela-Lisboa PT [LPPT]

Carrier    Flight  From  Depart    To    Arrive    A/C  St  Frequency | Dur'n | Dep T | Arr T | Effect | Ending | Exceptions
---------  ------  ----  --------  ----  --------  ---  --  ----------------------------------------------------------------
TP/WI      1123    ALC   13:30     LIS   15:00     AT7  0   1234567     02:30       -       1   10 Jun   28 Oct


- LPA (daily, E90 operated):

[KVS Tool 8.3.1/Diamond - Timetable/DE]
LIS  Lisbon Portela-Lisboa PT [LPPT]
LPA  Las Palmas De Gran Canaria ES [GCLP]

Carrier    Flight  From  Depart    To    Arrive    A/C  St  Frequency | Dur'n | Dep T | Arr T | Effect | Ending | Exceptions
---------  ------  ----  --------  ----  --------  ---  --  ----------------------------------------------------------------
TP/NI      1116    LIS   10:40     LPA   13:00     E90  0   1234567     02:20       1       -   10 Jun   24 Sep

[KVS Tool 8.3.1/Diamond - Timetable/DE]
LPA  Las Palmas De Gran Canaria ES [GCLP]
LIS  Lisbon Portela-Lisboa PT [LPPT]

Carrier    Flight  From  Depart    To    Arrive    A/C  St  Frequency | Dur'n | Dep T | Arr T | Effect | Ending | Exceptions
---------  ------  ----  --------  ----  --------  ---  --  ----------------------------------------------------------------
TP/NI      1119    LPA   13:40     LIS   16:05     E90  0   1234567     02:25       -       1   10 Jun   24 Sep


Additionally, the following routes will also see an increase in frequencies (not fully loaded yet, though):
- LIS-FAO (from 3 to 4 daily);
- LIS-MAN (from 1 to 2 daily);
- LIS-DME (from 5 weekly to 1 daily);
- LIS-DUS (from 1 to 2 daily);
- OPO-MAD (from 7 to 12 weekly).
Remove before flight
 
oceanbeat
Posts: 15
Joined: Fri Nov 18, 2016 6:11 pm

Re: TAP to launch 11 new routes in 2017

Tue Dec 06, 2016 5:35 pm

[quote="tff"]Here are the details:

- YYZ (5x weekly, late afternoon departure ex-LIS, late night departure ex-YYZ, A332 operated):

[KVS Tool 8.3.1/Diamond - Timetable/DE]
LIS  Lisbon Portela-Lisboa PT [LPPT]
YYZ  Toronto Lester B Pearson Intl ON CA [CYYZ]

Carrier    Flight  From  Depart    To    Arrive    A/C  St  Frequency | Dur'n | Dep T | Arr T | Effect | Ending | Exceptions
---------  ------  ----  --------  ----  --------  ---  --  ----------------------------------------------------------------
TP         259     LIS   19:05     YYZ   22:20     332  0   1-3-567     08:15       1       1   10 Jun   01 Oct

[KVS Tool 8.3.1/Diamond - Timetable/DE]
YYZ  Toronto Lester B Pearson Intl ON CA [CYYZ]
LIS  Lisbon Portela-Lisboa PT [LPPT]

Carrier    Flight  From  Depart    To    Arrive    A/C  St  Frequency | Dur'n | Dep T | Arr T | Effect | Ending | Exceptions
---------  ------  ----  --------  ----  --------  ---  --  ----------------------------------------------------------------
TP         258     YYZ   00:10     LIS   12:15     332  0   12-4-67     07:05       1       1   08 Jul   26 Sep


- BUD (daily, of which two are red-eyes and five are daylight, A32X operated):

After all my source was right!!!
 
rbrunner
Posts: 661
Joined: Wed Jan 05, 2011 10:13 am

Re: TAP to launch 11 new routes in 2017

Tue Dec 06, 2016 5:54 pm

stationmanager wrote:
Another one is Toronto.

A TAP vai passar a voar a partir de 10 de Junho para Toronto, no Canadá, com cinco frequências por semana, anunciou Fernando Pinto num encontro com jornalistas.

O presidente a companhia aérea revelou que a partir de 10 de Junho a TAP passará também a oferecer um voo diário para Las Palmas, assim como para Alicante.

Para Estugarda, a TAP passará a oferecer um voo bi-diário naquela data. Fernando Pinto revelou que a companhia voltará também a voar para Bucareste e para Budapeste a 1 de Julho.

Também as ligações entre Lisboa e Faro serão reforçadas, bem como a operação para Madrid (a partir do Porto), Manchester, Moscovo, Dusseldorf. Fernando Pinto salientou que em Julho do próximo ano a TAP terá mais 1.176 voos face a Julho de 2016, o que corresponde a mais 272 mil lugares.

Ao mesmo tempo, a TAP reforça a sua operação para Madrid (a partir do Porto), Manchester, Moscovo, Dusseldorf e Faro, podendo este aumento da oferta da companhia incluir, em breve, ainda mais novidades.

Para fazer face a este programa de crescimento, a frota da TAP será reforçada em 2017 com a entrada em operação de um novo avião de longo curso (A330), dois de médio curso (A320F) e mais quatro (Embraer) que integrarão a frota regional da TAP Express, passando de um total de 80 para 87 aeronaves.

What's an A320F?
 
airbazar
Topic Author
Posts: 10202
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 11:12 pm

Re: TAP to launch 11 new routes in 2017

Tue Dec 06, 2016 6:22 pm

stationmanager wrote:
Some new routes launched today!

Alicante
Bucharest
Budapest
Stuttgart
Gran Canaria

Interesting. Of those and YYZ, only Alicante is being served for the first time. Budapeste and Bucharest were suspended just last year. Stuttgard and Gran Canaria were terminated a while ago, probably during the great purge of 2000 :) Still missing 2 new routes (they said 7 were being launched), and can't wait to find out what the 3 new African destinations will be.
 
SCQ83
Posts: 5811
Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2012 8:32 pm

Re: TAP to launch 11 new routes in 2017

Tue Dec 06, 2016 6:50 pm

LIS 23:55 BUD 04:25

Which kind of schedule is that?
 
airbazar
Topic Author
Posts: 10202
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 11:12 pm

Re: TAP to launch 11 new routes in 2017

Tue Dec 06, 2016 7:27 pm

SCQ83 wrote:
LIS 23:55 BUD 04:25

Which kind of schedule is that?

It's called the "no space at LIS" schedule :) Even the YYZ schedule is terrible. One reason why TAP is desperately pushing to open a new airport at Montijo as early as 2018. I wish TP would start a morning departure from JFK to connect to all of these late night departures from LIS: Moscow, Budapest, Bucharest, Africa, Spain. They could even push back more of their evening departures to offer connection from this daytime JFK flight.
 
Brunopt
Posts: 23
Joined: Mon Jun 01, 2009 9:13 pm

Re: TAP to launch 11 new routes in 2017

Tue Dec 06, 2016 9:53 pm

Some sources point to Abidjan and Lomé as two of the new African routes.
But is better to wait and see what will be.

Cheers
 
whywhyzee
Posts: 1119
Joined: Tue Jan 05, 2016 3:12 am

Re: TAP to launch 11 new routes in 2017

Tue Dec 06, 2016 11:07 pm

airbazar wrote:
SCQ83 wrote:
LIS 23:55 BUD 04:25

Which kind of schedule is that?

It's called the "no space at LIS" schedule :) Even the YYZ schedule is terrible. One reason why TAP is desperately pushing to open a new airport at Montijo as early as 2018. I wish TP would start a morning departure from JFK to connect to all of these late night departures from LIS: Moscow, Budapest, Bucharest, Africa, Spain. They could even push back more of their evening departures to offer connection from this daytime JFK flight.


I can only speak for YYZ in terms of scheduling, but with that, I can tell you that its not entirely LIS's issue. YYZ is way short on gates during peak time operations, they have plans and space for expansion of Terminal 1 but nobody wants to pay for it, and a completely vacant satellite terminal...that nobody wants to pay for. Welcome to Aviation in Canada.
 
Flightsimboy
Posts: 1776
Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2005 12:49 pm

Re: TAP to launch 11 new routes in 2017

Tue Dec 06, 2016 11:45 pm

Very interesting arrival and departure times. At least the departure. At that hour you have all the Far East departures, CX to HKG. BR to TPE, soon or already here CZ to CAN. Welcome to YYZ.
LAX772LR - "Answer to goofy question:" in response to my question about the B737-MAX8 being grounded. 48 hours later all B737-MAX8 grounded worldwide. Go figure!!
 
whywhyzee
Posts: 1119
Joined: Tue Jan 05, 2016 3:12 am

Re: TAP to launch 11 new routes in 2017

Wed Dec 07, 2016 12:16 am

Flightsimboy wrote:
Very interesting arrival and departure times. At least the departure. At that hour you have all the Far East departures, CX to HKG. BR to TPE, soon or already here CZ to CAN. Welcome to YYZ.

CZ to CAN as of tomorrow infact! Inaugural flight is December 7th.
 
airbazar
Topic Author
Posts: 10202
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 11:12 pm

Re: TAP to launch 11 new routes in 2017

Wed Dec 07, 2016 2:25 pm

Brunopt wrote:
Some sources point to Abidjan and Lomé as two of the new African routes.
But is better to wait and see what will be.

Thanks. Abidjan is way overdue IMO. If you do a search on this forum for ABJ and airbazar, you can probably find posts going back a few years, ahahahah!
I wonder if TP will ever return to Nigeria and I often wondered if Doula or Malabo would be good markets for TP.
 
C010T3
Posts: 1956
Joined: Wed Jul 19, 2006 5:48 am

Re: TAP to launch 11 new routes in 2017

Wed Dec 07, 2016 3:21 pm

I am happy that they are covering their two biggest holes in Spain. The next step is to market LIS adequately as a hub for Spain.
 
SCQ83
Posts: 5811
Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2012 8:32 pm

Re: TAP to launch 11 new routes in 2017

Wed Dec 07, 2016 3:42 pm

C010T3 wrote:
I am happy that they are covering their two biggest holes in Spain. The next step is to market LIS adequately as a hub for Spain.


LIS is already marketed as a hub in Spain. Most people flying TAP from Spain is for connections to South America, Africa or the US.

And I wouldn't say those are their two biggest holes. While TAP flies weirdly to some odd airports like LCG or VGO, they have SCQ missing (much larger airport), TFN/TFS (as big as LPA in terms of local market and tourism; indeed Tenerife is more attractive than Gran Canaria to intercontinental tourists) and even PMI or IBZ (however PMI and IBZ are more seasonal).
 
airbazar
Topic Author
Posts: 10202
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 11:12 pm

Re: TAP to launch 11 new routes in 2017

Wed Dec 07, 2016 4:16 pm

In this day and age "marketing" comes down to offering good, efficient connections and competitive prices so the flights show up at the top of the list, on booking engine searches. Hence the heavy reliance on ancillary fees by some airlines because those fees are not part of the initial search engine criteria.
Sadly, while TP can do well in pricing they will always struggle with connections because of the congestion and sparse infrastructure at LIS. The stopover campaign can only go so far. At the end of the day most people will want to change planes quickly and efficiently.
 
TAP343
Posts: 24
Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2016 9:20 pm

Re: TAP to launch 11 new routes in 2017

Fri Dec 09, 2016 3:01 am

VCEflyboy wrote:
Just a reminder here that Tap used to fly to china a while back. Long long story but to make it short it they were flying PVG MXP LIS.

This is when AZ was restructuring and gave up its route and put its codeshare on TAP metal. This flight was also axed and Air China eventually took over the route to Milan with AZ code share and axed the LIS tag on which I believe still operates.


TAP has never flown to PVG.
 
User avatar
ojjunior
Posts: 987
Joined: Thu Jul 13, 2006 12:31 am

Re: TAP to launch 11 new routes in 2017

Fri Dec 09, 2016 10:39 am

A little off-topic but is there any info about TAP renewing it's A332 and A343 fleet?
They're out there for a loooong time...
Just wondering...
 
airbazar
Topic Author
Posts: 10202
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 11:12 pm

Re: TAP to launch 11 new routes in 2017

Fri Dec 09, 2016 2:53 pm

ojjunior wrote:
A little off-topic but is there any info about TAP renewing it's A332 and A343 fleet?
They're out there for a loooong time...
Just wondering...

Yes. It's entire fleet except A340's. My guess is that the A340's will be retired when the NEO's start arriving next year.
http://www.airbus.com/presscentre/press ... er-cabins/
 
User avatar
ojjunior
Posts: 987
Joined: Thu Jul 13, 2006 12:31 am

Re: TAP to launch 11 new routes in 2017

Fri Dec 09, 2016 3:54 pm

airbazar wrote:
ojjunior wrote:
A little off-topic but is there any info about TAP renewing it's A332 and A343 fleet?
They're out there for a loooong time...
Just wondering...

Yes. It's entire fleet except A340's. My guess is that the A340's will be retired when the NEO's start arriving next year.
http://www.airbus.com/presscentre/press ... er-cabins/

Uh... great news, didn't know about that, tks for sharing.
Well, I hope they're really talking with some manufacturer behind the scenes about their A340 phase out, it's really in time for that.
I really like to fly TAP longahul but no matter how careful they are in cleaning and keeping interiors updated, aging is aging. Some signs cannot be hidden.

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