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SQ22
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Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 3

Thu Oct 06, 2016 5:22 pm

Please continue to your discussion and to post your updates here.

Link to old thread:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1336567&start=400
 
iFlyDTW
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 3

Thu Oct 06, 2016 7:48 pm

A nice, new, fresh thread. The NK hangar across the way is looking good, the exterior is mostly complete, looks like they're getting ready to put the name up soon!
 
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 3

Thu Oct 06, 2016 11:28 pm

F9 capacity for Q3/Q4:
DTW>DEN 319^321
DTW>PHX 319^320
DTW>MCO 321
DTW>TTN 319
DTW>RSW 319 <-Should be A320 IMO->
 
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klm617
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 3

Thu Oct 06, 2016 11:51 pm

So nice that we got a thread to part 3 about Detroit. Usually they all fizzled out after about 10 negative comments.

Hope to see some good things in 2018 as I think there is not going to be to many adds at DTW in 2017. I was excited about the new AM flights but then got my bubble burst when MSP got KLM and FI chose PHL and TPA over DTW and DL started BOS-DUB over DTW-DUB. Hopefully somebody soon will see the value in adding DTW in the international sector to keep Delta honest with their pricing on Detroit Europe flights.
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klm617
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 3

Fri Oct 07, 2016 12:02 am

Let's talk about dedicated air cargo. The was this grand idea that the WCAA was working on to make the area a great cargo hub called aerotropolis. What is happing with this and why has it not moved forward. What is interesting about the concept is sence it's inception the WCAA has not be able to land one single dedicated cargo flight to it's portfolio. If anything dedicated cargo service has declined to DTW and YIP. So what are your thoughts on why this project is also failing to attract the business it was designed to attract. You would think that with the ties between Detroit and Asia as far as the auto market goes there would be one or two dedicated flights from Detroit to Japan and Korea.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
flyDTW1992
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 3

Fri Oct 07, 2016 12:11 am

klm617 wrote:
Let's talk about dedicated air cargo. The was this grand idea that the WCAA was working on to make the area a great cargo hub called aerotropolis. What is happing with this and why has it not moved forward. What is interesting about the concept is sence it's inception the WCAA has not be able to land one single dedicated cargo flight to it's portfolio. If anything dedicated cargo service has declined to DTW and YIP. So what are your thoughts on why this project is also failing to attract the business it was designed to attract. You would think that with the ties between Detroit and Asia as far as the auto market goes there would be one or two dedicated flights from Detroit to Japan and Korea.

The runway extension at YIP is also part of the larger plan to bring in scheduled cargo service.

I think FedEx has added some capacity over the past few years.

DHL used to be flying into TOL and moved to DTW in the past year.

I think the majority of true cargo (not integrator like FedEx/UPS) between DTW and Asia likely moves as belly freight on the several daily widebodies (even more so when the A350 arrives.) or via truck to places like ORD and LCK where Cargolux, Cathay, EVA, etc. operate 747s regularly.

That said, I do think there has to be some room for more scheduled cargo service in the metro area. At the very least we should have an Amazon 767 at some point as their operation ramps up, I see no reason why a metro area this size shouldn't have that.
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 3

Fri Oct 07, 2016 12:35 am

flyDTW1992 wrote:
klm617 wrote:
That said, I do think there has to be some room for more scheduled cargo service in the metro area. At the very least we should have an Amazon 767 at some point as their operation ramps up, I see no reason why a metro area this size shouldn't have that.
DTW is the perfect place for this flight, with a metro area of 5.3 million there's a lot more that this area can see.
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lavalampluva
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 3

Fri Oct 07, 2016 12:53 am

flymco753 wrote:
flyDTW1992 wrote:
klm617 wrote:
That said, I do think there has to be some room for more scheduled cargo service in the metro area. At the very least we should have an Amazon 767 at some point as their operation ramps up, I see no reason why a metro area this size shouldn't have that.
DTW is the perfect place for this flight, with a metro area of 5.3 million there's a lot more that this area can see.

From what I understand they're setting these up near where they have fulfillment centers. So if you have one there's a good chance at some point it's possible they could start service.
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klm617
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 3

Fri Oct 07, 2016 1:27 am

flyDTW1992 wrote:
klm617 wrote:
Let's talk about dedicated air cargo. The was this grand idea that the WCAA was working on to make the area a great cargo hub called aerotropolis. What is happing with this and why has it not moved forward. What is interesting about the concept is sence it's inception the WCAA has not be able to land one single dedicated cargo flight to it's portfolio. If anything dedicated cargo service has declined to DTW and YIP. So what are your thoughts on why this project is also failing to attract the business it was designed to attract. You would think that with the ties between Detroit and Asia as far as the auto market goes there would be one or two dedicated flights from Detroit to Japan and Korea.

The runway extension at YIP is also part of the larger plan to bring in scheduled cargo service.

I think FedEx has added some capacity over the past few years.

DHL used to be flying into TOL and moved to DTW in the past year.

I think the majority of true cargo (not integrator like FedEx/UPS) between DTW and Asia likely moves as belly freight on the several daily widebodies (even more so when the A350 arrives.) or via truck to places like ORD and LCK where Cargolux, Cathay, EVA, etc. operate 747s regularly.

I really don't consider FEDEX/UPS or DHL dedicated cargo carriers they are more overnight package carriers. LH Cargo has started Detroit twice and failed Cargolux operated here for I think a period of 2 years and failed and the freight operations at YIP have pretty much dried up. To the point of it being belly cargo on the Delta flights to Asia is it possible that Delta is putting a monkey wrench into the plans of getting more cargo flights into Detroit to protect their Cargo revenue. But maybe not because Northwest with their dedicated freighters never had a flight a Northwest Cargo flight operating out of Detroit.
That said, I do think there has to be some room for more scheduled cargo service in the metro area. At the very least we should have an Amazon 767 at some point as their operation ramps up, I see no reason why a metro area this size shouldn't have that.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
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klm617
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 3

Fri Oct 07, 2016 10:49 am

I really don't consider FEDEX/UPS or DHL dedicated cargo carriers they are more overnight package carriers. LH Cargo has started Detroit twice and failed Cargolux operated here for I think a period of 2 years and failed and the freight operations at YIP have pretty much dried up. To the point of it being belly cargo on the Delta flights to Asia is it possible that Delta is putting a monkey wrench into the plans of getting more cargo flights into Detroit to protect their Cargo revenue. But maybe not because Northwest with their dedicated freighters never had a flight a Northwest Cargo flight operating out of Detroit.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
DiamondFlyer
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 3

Fri Oct 07, 2016 1:23 pm

klm617 wrote:
I really don't consider FEDEX/UPS or DHL dedicated cargo carriers they are more overnight package carriers. LH Cargo has started Detroit twice and failed Cargolux operated here for I think a period of 2 years and failed and the freight operations at YIP have pretty much dried up. To the point of it being belly cargo on the Delta flights to Asia is it possible that Delta is putting a monkey wrench into the plans of getting more cargo flights into Detroit to protect their Cargo revenue. But maybe not because Northwest with their dedicated freighters never had a flight a Northwest Cargo flight operating out of Detroit.


Freight operations at YIP have dried up? Tell that to Kalitta Charters I & II and USAJet, both based there, as well as IFL which is in and out all the time.
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 3

Fri Oct 07, 2016 1:34 pm

lavalampluva wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
flyDTW1992 wrote:
DTW is the perfect place for this flight, with a metro area of 5.3 million there's a lot more that this area can see.

From what I understand they're setting these up near where they have fulfillment centers. So if you have one there's a good chance at some point it's possible they could start service.
I would suspect we hear an announcement by the end of 2017, the fulfillment center is located just south of the airport in Brownstown. Amazon also announced a corporate center in Downtown Detroit, which is a major step towards Prime service. http://www.freep.com/story/money/busine ... /72797396/
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iFlyDTW
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 3

Fri Oct 07, 2016 3:08 pm

If Allegiant moved their operations from TOL or FNT to DTW (not likely at the moment due to gate space at the North Term), along with SFB, PIE, PGD and MYR what destinations do you think they would add? Considering there's no competition to both AUS and JAX.
 
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 3

Fri Oct 07, 2016 8:55 pm

iFlyDTW wrote:
If Allegiant moved their operations from TOL or FNT to DTW (not likely at the moment due to gate space at the North Term), along with SFB, PIE, PGD and MYR what destinations do you think they would add? Considering there's no competition to both AUS and JAX.



I honestly think they would be better off at KDET using the A319. Shouldn't be any issue with the A319 and the short runway length plus KDET is their kind of airport a win win for every body. The people and city of Detroit plus Allegiant.
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 3

Fri Oct 07, 2016 9:00 pm

DiamondFlyer wrote:
klm617 wrote:
I really don't consider FEDEX/UPS or DHL dedicated cargo carriers they are more overnight package carriers. LH Cargo has started Detroit twice and failed Cargolux operated here for I think a period of 2 years and failed and the freight operations at YIP have pretty much dried up. To the point of it being belly cargo on the Delta flights to Asia is it possible that Delta is putting a monkey wrench into the plans of getting more cargo flights into Detroit to protect their Cargo revenue. But maybe not because Northwest with their dedicated freighters never had a flight a Northwest Cargo flight operating out of Detroit.


Freight operations at YIP have dried up? Tell that to Kalitta Charters I & II and USAJet, both based there, as well as IFL which is in and out all the time.



KYIP ops are just a shell of what they once were. With ZERO scheduled dedicated cargo service.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 3

Fri Oct 07, 2016 10:32 pm

klm617 wrote:
KDET is their kind of airport a win win for every body. The people and city of Detroit plus Allegiant.
Allegiant is shifting towards larger airports, like CLE over CAK, the addition of EWR and BWI, if I were G4 I would be adding DTW because it's not a hard airport to get to and DET is a ghost town, it's more of an airport for Ultimate Air Shuttle or OneJet, which I can see, but Allegiant would go to DTW, they first need to figure out their gate situation at the North Terminal with it being bulked out at peak travel times.
 
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 3

Sat Oct 08, 2016 1:18 am

NK capacity change for Q3/Q4:
DTW>ATL 2x A319^2x A320
DTW>TPA ~319^2x A320 1x A319
DTW>RSW ~319^3x A320
DTW>IAH 1x A319^A320
DTW>DFW 1x A319^A320
DTW>LAS 1x A321 1x A319 1x A320^3x A320
 
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 3

Sun Oct 09, 2016 12:59 am

iFlyDTW wrote:
NK capacity change for Q3/Q4
These posts help, thanks for your time, try including all of your carriers in one post to alleviate congestion.

I know the WCAA master plan has no plans for a new terminal, but don't you think an 8 gate concourse extension where the current Smith Terminal is would be a good addition? They could connect the D gates with a new concourse in the place of the existing Smith concourse B and make it the E concourse and add additional gates to warrant expansion, because if NK is going to be adding metal, G4 possibly entering the market, some more gates for WN or B6. Just a thought.
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 3

Sun Oct 09, 2016 9:07 pm

Aeromexico will resume Detroit which is good, but I would assume the auto industry which fell in 2008 is having an impact on new routes. For example, Northwest Airlines (pre-merger I believe) flew from Detroit to Brussels and Dusseldorf, which were both cut a few years later.

A question I have is about Delta's new seasonal service between Detroit and Munich. What market is it serving?

What also is sustaining two daily flights between Detroit and Frankfurt?
 
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 3

Sun Oct 09, 2016 9:19 pm

NichCage wrote:
Aeromexico will resume Detroit which is good, but I would assume the auto industry which fell in 2008 is having an impact on new routes. For example, Northwest Airlines (pre-merger I believe) flew from Detroit to Brussels and Dusseldorf, which were both cut a few years later.
A question I have is about Delta's new seasonal service between Detroit and Munich. What market is it serving?
What also is sustaining two daily flights between Detroit and Frankfurt?


In contrast to most US cities, DTW highest O&D is to Germany not the UK. The automotive industry is primarily is the reason. With suppliers as well as GM European HQ and Ford European HQ in Germany, it's not surprising that two daily flights to FRA operate year round. MUC supposedly was launched for the same reason and maybe as well as a preemptive move by DL to discourage LH from launching service.

In 2007 NW launched DUS and BRU, as well as a 2nd frequency to FRA with 757A aircraft. This occurred when north atlantic yields were high and airlines were trying to cash in on the higher yields. There was a quite a capacity dump that summer as LH also increased to 10x weekly. BRU lasted very shortly ~3 months, and DUS fared a bit longer. Due to the Lehman Brothers collapse and the resulting crash of the consumer credit industry, after summer 2007, the increase in services from DTW were all removed. This was the year BA pulled out of DTW as well.
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NichCage
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 3

Sun Oct 09, 2016 10:01 pm

Also, did Delta ever do well on DTW-HKG? I understand that moving DTW-HKG and making it SEA-HKG is a much better move. What market did the DTW-HKG and HKG-DTW servw when it was being operated?
 
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 3

Sun Oct 09, 2016 11:59 pm

klm617 wrote:
DiamondFlyer wrote:
klm617 wrote:
I really don't consider FEDEX/UPS or DHL dedicated cargo carriers they are more overnight package carriers. LH Cargo has started Detroit twice and failed Cargolux operated here for I think a period of 2 years and failed and the freight operations at YIP have pretty much dried up. To the point of it being belly cargo on the Delta flights to Asia is it possible that Delta is putting a monkey wrench into the plans of getting more cargo flights into Detroit to protect their Cargo revenue. But maybe not because Northwest with their dedicated freighters never had a flight a Northwest Cargo flight operating out of Detroit.


Freight operations at YIP have dried up? Tell that to Kalitta Charters I & II and USAJet, both based there, as well as IFL which is in and out all the time.



KYIP ops are just a shell of what they once were. With ZERO scheduled dedicated cargo service.

The nature and reasons of most automotive related air cargo does not lend itself to dedicated, scheduled cargo service. It is very much an on-demand, expedited service used when they are supply chain disruptions, expedites, quality issues, or operational issues, or customs delays primarily for inbound component parts from suppliers into OEM manufacturing/assemly plants.

USAJet, Kalitta, IFL do a lot of business in this space and have been doing it for a long time. They are based out of YIP but the automotive assembly plants in North America are not just concentrated around Metro Detroit. They do a lot of service out of Mexico into airports near and adjacent to major OEM assembly plants in Michigan, Ontario, Ohio, Illinois, Missouri, Tennessee, Alabama, South Carolina, etc.

These companies specialize in a air cargo niche that is much different than dedicated parcel service like FedEx or UPS and are also different than dedicated, scheduled cargo service divisions of passenger airlines. The type of on-demand air cargo service that the auto industry utilizes is the "pick-up the phone and get me an airplane!" type of service.
 
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 3

Mon Oct 10, 2016 12:03 am

iFlyDTW wrote:
Allegiant would go to DTW, they first need to figure out their gate situation at the North Terminal with it being bulked out at peak travel times.


While true not all gates are leased. Spirit had originally committed to 6 gates, but then dropped back to 3. My source inside NK told me they were talking to WCAA about signing an agreement for a 4th gate, but I don't know if it ever happened. If G4 wanted to move their FNT and TOL operations to DTW, they could, because there are gates available at the North for lease. the current CUTE gates are being charged out on a per use basis.
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 3

Mon Oct 10, 2016 3:13 am

flymco753 wrote:
iFlyDTW wrote:
NK capacity change for Q3/Q4
These posts help, thanks for your time, try including all of your carriers in one post to alleviate congestion.

I know the WCAA master plan has no plans for a new terminal, but don't you think an 8 gate concourse extension where the current Smith Terminal is would be a good addition? They could connect the D gates with a new concourse in the place of the existing Smith concourse B and make it the E concourse and add additional gates to warrant expansion, because if NK is going to be adding metal, G4 possibly entering the market, some more gates for WN or B6. Just a thought.

Don't get your hopes up about NK adding a significant amount of DTW flights, at least anything that would justify 8 gate expansion.
There is still ample capacity on the 5 CUTE gates that are pay per usage.

Once the Smith and Berry terminal demolition occurs in the near future there are tentative plans to add 4 gates to the North Terminal relatively easily without increasing the exterior shell of the current building. They can add 3 gates on to the north end, wrapping around the northeast side of the current building and they can add another gate on to the south end of the terminal once the site is opened-up. Significant expansion in RON aircraft will be available in the the area of the Berry Terminal and Smith Terminal areas.

They have determined is is not feasible to further extension on the north end of the North Terminal beyond its current length. Future expansion would be added on the south end and extend into the area occupied currently by the Smith Terminal. If/when they build a new ACT tower, it will likely go in the area currently occupied by Concourse A of the Smith Terminal.

Other major projects coming up in the next few years include a major expansion/relocation of deicing pads. Primarily, adding pad space for 4R and 22L.
Also runway 3L/21R is scheduled to be completely rebuilt in 2020 and shifted east about 100 feet due to obstruction issues and being too close to the McNamera garage, Plus associated changes to taxiways in the area.
 
flyDTW1992
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 3

Mon Oct 10, 2016 3:41 am

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
iFlyDTW wrote:
NK capacity change for Q3/Q4
These posts help, thanks for your time, try including all of your carriers in one post to alleviate congestion.

I know the WCAA master plan has no plans for a new terminal, but don't you think an 8 gate concourse extension where the current Smith Terminal is would be a good addition? They could connect the D gates with a new concourse in the place of the existing Smith concourse B and make it the E concourse and add additional gates to warrant expansion, because if NK is going to be adding metal, G4 possibly entering the market, some more gates for WN or B6. Just a thought.

Don't get your hopes up about NK adding a significant amount of DTW flights, at least anything that would justify 8 gate expansion.
There is still ample capacity on the 5 CUTE gates that are pay per usage.

Once the Smith and Berry terminal demolition occurs in the near future there are tentative plans to add 4 gates to the North Terminal relatively easily without increasing the exterior shell of the current building. They can add 3 gates on to the north end, wrapping around the northeast side of the current building and they can add another gate on to the south end of the terminal once the site is opened-up. Significant expansion in RON aircraft will be available in the the area of the Berry Terminal and Smith Terminal areas.

They have determined is is not feasible to further extension on the north end of the North Terminal beyond its current length. Future expansion would be added on the south end and extend into the area occupied currently by the Smith Terminal. If/when they build a new ACT tower, it will likely go in the area currently occupied by Concourse A of the Smith Terminal.

Other major projects coming up in the next few years include a major expansion/relocation of deicing pads. Primarily, adding pad space for 4R and 22L.
Also runway 3L/21R is scheduled to be completely rebuilt in 2020 and shifted east about 100 feet due to obstruction issues and being too close to the McNamera garage, Plus associated changes to taxiways in the area.


Is 3L/21R going to be extended as well?

As for the deice pads....The 22L pad desperately needs the help. 21R never really caused too much trouble when I ran things there, until the airport went to north flow and every non-Delta aircraft had to taxi to the 21R end to be sprayed and then back to the 3L end to depart. A large pad between the 21/3s combining Delta's and OAL's operations would probably make sense in the long run. Maybe 12-15 slots and some modern support facilities (lights would be nice...)
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PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 3

Mon Oct 10, 2016 4:55 am

There's two options on changes/improvements to deice pads. It looks like they will eventually build a new deice pad of the west side of 4R between 4L & 4R for DL mainline and potentially make the current 4R pad for Delta Connection. Everyone else would get to use the current/expanded deice pad used by DCI today at the south end of the North Terminal and/or also and expanded 22L pad once the Berry terminal comes down. 21R would become a back-up/alternate pad.

A new deice pad on the west side of 4R would work well in northerly flow. Not sure how it would work in a southerly flow, other than if they were shooting departures off 22R.

I believe they ruled out as not practical or feasible to have common deicing pad as it would be huge, mix vendors/contract deicer, and DL would have less control over their own operation. Plus the airport and DL didn't like how it would add significantly more taxi time in northerly flow and cause a lot more doubling back of aircraft and risk holdover times in some cases.
 
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 3

Mon Oct 10, 2016 4:58 am

No extension to 3L/21R. They can't extend south due to obstructions and also proximity to taxiways and 9R/27L. North extension also had obstruction/clear zone issues I believe.
That runway would probably never get built by today's standards.
 
iFlyDTW
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 3

Mon Oct 10, 2016 1:36 pm

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
Don't get your hopes up about NK adding a significant amount of DTW flights, at least anything that would justify 8 gate expansion.
Out of curiosity, in terms of air service, what are your predictions? I've always wanted to know, not sure if I asked before.
 
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 3

Wed Oct 12, 2016 2:17 am

F9 did some reshuffling in their flight times, I'll post it tomorrow with other airlines, as far as the NK hangar comes, the shell appears to be done, a door should be coming on soon, I'd say it'll be done by the end of Q3.
 
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 3

Wed Oct 12, 2016 5:31 pm

Updates on current service Q3/4:
AA- up to 4x mainline to ORD (M80), mainline returns to PHL, DCA 1 of 3 CRJ ^ CR7
F9: DEN 319^321 from PM to red eye arrival and morning departure. PHX from early PM ATL late PM arrival and early morning departure. MCO from early morning arrival to later morning arrival early afternoon departure. RSW resumes.
LH: from 343 to 333.
WN: some 737 flights^738
NK: ~1^3x RSW, TPA. CUN resumes.
UA: mainline to all stations but IAD.
 
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 3

Wed Oct 12, 2016 9:47 pm

iFlyDTW wrote:
Updates on current service Q3/4:
AA- up to 4x mainline to ORD (M80), mainline returns to PHL, DCA 1 of 3 CRJ ^ CR7
F9: DEN 319^321 from PM to red eye arrival and morning departure. PHX from early PM ATL late PM arrival and early morning departure. MCO from early morning arrival to later morning arrival early afternoon departure. RSW resumes.
LH: from 343 to 333.
WN: some 737 flights^738
NK: ~1^3x RSW, TPA. CUN resumes.
UA: mainline to all stations but IAD.
Too vague, try updating all carrier upgrades, you left out major players like DL and friends, if there is any updates. Some flights to 738 is too vague, display the markets. I believe you're statements, I see the 738's, 3 of them in the afternoon.
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 3

Thu Oct 13, 2016 3:04 am

iFlyDTW wrote:
PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
Don't get your hopes up about NK adding a significant amount of DTW flights, at least anything that would justify 8 gate expansion.
Out of curiosity, in terms of air service, what are your predictions? I've always wanted to know, not sure if I asked before.

I tend to be more of a skeptic/realist when it comes to predictions about DTW air service. Then again that comes from observing the ups and downs of this ever-evolving industry. In a vaccum, yes DTW would/could/should get more routes/frequency/airlines but everything needs to be based on opportunities elsewhere. Airline don't start routes on the "if you fly it, they will come mentality" they start routes based on solid forecasts and economics.

DTW has some unique strengths and challenges like every market. It is interesting to see that in the revised master plans they have revised their forecast growth down to a modest 1.3% annual growth rate which is very reasonable in and line with economic growth. Previous plans had very overzealous planning assumptions.

New service at DTW is going to be in line with organic economic growth in the region:

- DL will remain relatively neutral on a high-level basis, with on-going adjustments on individual routes/frequency/capacity. In the short term no growth in TPAC flying from DTW, and TATL is going to be limited to opportunistic peak summer flying and capacity to its European partner hubs. TPAC shouldn't gain or lose any routes in the near-term but will see smaller aircraft with 744 retirements and capacity spread across other hubs. DL will launch a China flight from MSP before DTW gets another China flight. I could see a summer seasonal 5th daily on DTW-AMS or a 3rd summer seasonal on DTW-CDG.

- DL could increase capacity on some routes if they decide to ever move connect capacity from ATL. DTW-West Coast routes could get incremental flights if they want to grow capacity in these market

- NK will add/delete flights like they always have, but will slowly grow more flights but its cyclical on economic conditions but it won't be a hub per-say

- AA eventually will add DTW-LAX in 2018?

- Eventually an ME3 carrier will come in DTW - my guess 2018 or 2019
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 3

Thu Oct 13, 2016 3:04 am

DL Thanksgiving holiday weekend domestic B744 flying:

Delta 1640 DTW-ATL 7:10AM 9:14AM 26 Nov 2016 Boeing 747-400
Delta 0967 ATL-SEA 11:15AM 1:27PM 26 Nov 2016 Boeing 747-400
Delta 1114 SEA-ATL 2:55PM 10:28PM 26 Nov 2016 Boeing 747-400

Delta 0967 ATL-SEA 11:15AM 1:27PM 27 Nov 2016 Boeing 747-400
Delta 1114 SEA-ATL 2:55PM 10:28PM 27 Nov 2016 Boeing 747-400

Delta 2005 ATL-DTW 7:25AM 9:16AM 28 Nov 2016 Boeing 747-400
 
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 3

Fri Oct 14, 2016 2:31 pm

N901NK the first NK A320NEO a will arrive at DTW tomorrow from FLL.
...the carriage of liquids, gels, and aerosols are prohibited through the screening checkpoint except for travel size toiletries of 3 ounces or less...
 
airtran737
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 3

Fri Oct 14, 2016 3:27 pm

Detroit and air cargo is a weird thing. When Metro Flight Services existed there was an option for large freighters. I myself brought quite a few trips into DTW from MXP full of Brembo brake assemblies when the Camaro re-started production. Fast forward a couple years, Metro was bought out by Signature, who gave up the bonded warehouse, as well as sent away the main deck loader. Now anything bigger than a 727 is routed to other airports. This is why LAN has seen 747 charters and numerous 767 charters. They have a warehouse and the equipment for the flights.
Nice Trip Report!!! Great Pics, thanks for posting!!!! B747Forever
 
flyDTW1992
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 3

Fri Oct 14, 2016 6:42 pm

airtran737 wrote:
Detroit and air cargo is a weird thing. When Metro Flight Services existed there was an option for large freighters. I myself brought quite a few trips into DTW from MXP full of Brembo brake assemblies when the Camaro re-started production. Fast forward a couple years, Metro was bought out by Signature, who gave up the bonded warehouse, as well as sent away the main deck loader. Now anything bigger than a 727 is routed to other airports. This is why LAN has seen 747 charters and numerous 767 charters. They have a warehouse and the equipment for the flights.

Huh. I worked for ASIG/Signature for a while and actually never knew that. I always thought ASIG had one main deck loader.

But wait, whoever's handling the DHL 767 these days has to have an MDL, right?
Now you're flying smart
 
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klm617
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 3

Sun Oct 16, 2016 7:31 pm

Well with the new week starting tomorrow here is hoping for a big exciting announcement about a new entrant into the Detroit market.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
lavalampluva
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 3

Sun Oct 16, 2016 10:36 pm

klm617 wrote:
Well with the new week starting tomorrow here is hoping for a big exciting announcement about a new entrant into the Detroit market.

Delta Connection is adding a seasonal flight to Iron Mountain.
Remind me to send a thank you note to Mr. Boeing.
 
airtran737
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 3

Tue Oct 18, 2016 1:21 pm

flyDTW1992 wrote:
airtran737 wrote:
Detroit and air cargo is a weird thing. When Metro Flight Services existed there was an option for large freighters. I myself brought quite a few trips into DTW from MXP full of Brembo brake assemblies when the Camaro re-started production. Fast forward a couple years, Metro was bought out by Signature, who gave up the bonded warehouse, as well as sent away the main deck loader. Now anything bigger than a 727 is routed to other airports. This is why LAN has seen 747 charters and numerous 767 charters. They have a warehouse and the equipment for the flights.

Huh. I worked for ASIG/Signature for a while and actually never knew that. I always thought ASIG had one main deck loader.

But wait, whoever's handling the DHL 767 these days has to have an MDL, right?


ASIG has a loader that will fit on the DC-9/727 but nothing for a 767/MD-11/747. CAS is handling DHL, but using DHL's equipment (last I knew), and DHL doesn't want charter cargo in their warehouse.
Nice Trip Report!!! Great Pics, thanks for posting!!!! B747Forever
 
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klm617
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 3

Thu Oct 20, 2016 4:55 pm

I would like to know if when Virgin started their flights from Detroit to London if they received the incentive package that the airport offers for new entrants into the Detroit market also would be interesting to know if Aeromexico got any monies from the airport when they entered the Detroit market a couple of years ago. Any information would be greatly appreciated.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
thedetroitpole
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 3

Sun Oct 23, 2016 6:13 pm

klm617 wrote:
I would like to know if when Virgin started their flights from Detroit to London if they received the incentive package that the airport offers for new entrants into the Detroit market also would be interesting to know if Aeromexico got any monies from the airport when they entered the Detroit market a couple of years ago. Any information would be greatly appreciated.
Virgin began flights during the Joint-Venture, so it was metal swap. Delta wanted to advertise a brand that could get more passengers on the United Kingdom end to use Detroit, and traffic has grown significantly, so there is no incentive needed, Detroit is a Delta hub, so it is Delta that jurisdicts who uses the flight. I do not know about Aeromexico, but I think Aeromexico is the operator of the second daily flight to Monterrey, but once the Joint-Venture is assembled, Delta can choose to operate the second daily flight instead of Aeromexico, do not quote me but I think that is how it goes. Somebody please prove me wrong.
 
iFlyDTW
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 3

Tue Oct 25, 2016 10:22 pm

Here's an interesting article about DTW's success in 2016, with hinted "more to come". http://detroitaero.org/blog/dtw-non-sto ... =hootsuite

So what can you see coming from this?
Air service in my opinion is important to the growth of the airport. I strongly believe that Icelandair or Aer Lingus will be landing on our runways by 2020, Manchester may be served by DL seasonally, and maybe a new Latin America route or airline like Aeromexico to Mexico City, I can see Volaris go to Guadalajara less than daily too. Since this is almost too much to ask for, let me break it down.
Most likely to happen by 2020:
MAN on DL: This route has already been discussed as when, not if. S18 is my bet.
Volaris to GDL or DL to GDL: with the joint venture between DL and AM it will make it more possible to run a daily GDL flight on DL, if not Volaris will operate 3x weekly.
Icelandair: FI has covered most large markets in the East, and I bet DTW is short on their NA list.

What are your thoughts?
 
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klm617
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 3

Wed Oct 26, 2016 12:32 am

iFlyDTW wrote:
Here's an interesting article about DTW's success in 2016, with hinted "more to come". http://detroitaero.org/blog/dtw-non-sto ... =hootsuite

So what can you see coming from this?
Air service in my opinion is important to the growth of the airport. I strongly believe that Icelandair or Aer Lingus will be landing on our runways by 2020, Manchester may be served by DL seasonally, and maybe a new Latin America route or airline like Aeromexico to Mexico City, I can see Volaris go to Guadalajara less than daily too. Since this is almost too much to ask for, let me break it down.
Most likely to happen by 2020:
MAN on DL: This route has already been discussed as when, not if. S18 is my bet.
Volaris to GDL or DL to GDL: with the joint venture between DL and AM it will make it more possible to run a daily GDL flight on DL, if not Volaris will operate 3x weekly.
Icelandair: FI has covered most large markets in the East, and I bet DTW is short on their NA list.

What are your thoughts?


I am now cautiously optimistic as I see the biggest road block to any future air service at DTW to be Delta as the WCAA will not aggressively pursue any options that might directly compete with Delta and hurt their yields so anything new would have to get the nod from Delta and I don't mean publically more like a gentleman's type agreement. The thing that bothers me is we are not beating anyone out when it comes to adding new service we only get new flight when we are the next logic add in an airlines route network. The last out of the box thinking was Air France adding Paris to Detroit. If anything options from Detroit international wise have diminished over the years. We have lost KL and are soon to lose VS and let's see how long AM lasts this time. Well there is this metal neutral propaganda that corporate likes to put out there I'm sorry that's not the case at least in my experience the foreign airlines in most cases do a much better job than their US counter parts. When DTW was a hub with NW there was always something new going on since the initial additions of the international additions after the merger this market has been pretty much stagnant as far as growth by Delta there have been more subtractions than additions. So again I really don't believe we will see much of anything more than what we have now. I do think there is room for some additional flights but as long as Delta is committed to restricting capacity sadly Detroit will not get any additional flights.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
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klm617
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 3

Wed Oct 26, 2016 1:34 am

iFlyDTW wrote:
Here's an interesting article about DTW's success in 2016, with hinted "more to come". http://detroitaero.org/blog/dtw-non-sto ... =hootsuite

So what can you see coming from this?
Air service in my opinion is important to the growth of the airport. I strongly believe that Icelandair or Aer Lingus will be landing on our runways by 2020, Manchester may be served by DL seasonally, and maybe a new Latin America route or airline like Aeromexico to Mexico City, I can see Volaris go to Guadalajara less than daily too. Since this is almost too much to ask for, let me break it down.
Most likely to happen by 2020:
MAN on DL: This route has already been discussed as when, not if. S18 is my bet.
Volaris to GDL or DL to GDL: with the joint venture between DL and AM it will make it more possible to run a daily GDL flight on DL, if not Volaris will operate 3x weekly.
Icelandair: FI has covered most large markets in the East, and I bet DTW is short on their NA list.

What are your thoughts?


It speaks volumes when BOS-DUB is chosen over DTW-DUB to add to the Delta network.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
iFlyDTW
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 3

Wed Oct 26, 2016 4:22 am

klm617 wrote:
It speaks volumes when BOS-DUB is chosen over DTW-DUB to add to the Delta network.
Detroit's Irish population is lame compared to Boston..Detroit is known for the Polish, Middle Eastern, Mexican and now Oriental people. The only reason DUB could work from DTW is business and some leisure, Aer Lingus wouldn't be daily because we don't have many Irish natives, we have more Italian's than Irish even! BOS-DUB makes sense for DL, DTW does not.
 
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klm617
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 3

Wed Oct 26, 2016 2:47 pm

iFlyDTW wrote:
klm617 wrote:
It speaks volumes when BOS-DUB is chosen over DTW-DUB to add to the Delta network.
Detroit's Irish population is lame compared to Boston..Detroit is known for the Polish, Middle Eastern, Mexican and now Oriental people. The only reason DUB could work from DTW is business and some leisure, Aer Lingus wouldn't be daily because we don't have many Irish natives, we have more Italian's than Irish even! BOS-DUB makes sense for DL, DTW does not.


What Delta is saying is we are done growing at Detroit and the WCAA needs to wake up. If there is any further expansion in the Detroit market it is going to have to come from other carriers as Delta is done as far as new markets from Detroit. Manchester has proved that a vital new link with Virgin Atlantic and other non hub cities are getting Manchester links but Detroit is snubbed they are even getting their VS service to LHR pulled not to mention other hubs now getting AMS links via KLM another snub. I wonder how many trips that the WCAA has made to Doha or Iceland to land Qatar and Icelandair for the Detroit market I bet they haven't even made one trip to lure these carriers into the Detroit Market.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 3

Wed Oct 26, 2016 9:30 pm

klm617 wrote:
What Delta is saying is we are done growing at Detroit and the WCAA needs to wake up. If there is any further expansion in the Detroit market it is going to have to come from other carriers as Delta is done as far as new markets from Detroit. Manchester has proved that a vital new link with Virgin Atlantic and other non hub cities are getting Manchester links but Detroit is snubbed they are even getting their VS service to LHR pulled not to mention other hubs now getting AMS links via KLM another snub. I wonder how many trips that the WCAA has made to Doha or Iceland to land Qatar and Icelandair for the Detroit market I bet they haven't even made one trip to lure these carriers into the Detroit Market.
The WCAA can only do so much to add new service, I bet they've pursued a bunch of airlines, but the airlines find opportunity elsewhere. Technically in 2016 we've seen more announcements and upgrades than in the last how many years, again flying over 1M more through our airport over last year. United adding SFO was pretty big, same with Aeromexico coming back, and all of the upgrades made by Spirit, Frontier and Southwest has helped lift DTW higher. Icelandair probably didn't choose DTW as their next US destination because PHL is the better option, DTW is over CLE, CVG, PIT, IND, STL, and BNA so you know DTW is on FI's list of eventuated service, but not at this moment, same with Qatar, there are just better markets Qatar can serve before DTW, but DTW is still far up compared to other airports.
...the carriage of liquids, gels, and aerosols are prohibited through the screening checkpoint except for travel size toiletries of 3 ounces or less...
 
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 3

Wed Oct 26, 2016 10:13 pm

Too far out but cool to see, DL1119 on June 8, 2017 DTW-PDX scheduled A321.
...the carriage of liquids, gels, and aerosols are prohibited through the screening checkpoint except for travel size toiletries of 3 ounces or less...
 
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 3

Fri Oct 28, 2016 2:44 pm

My theory on the A321, should it stick; MCO-DTW-PDX-DTW-MCO. It shows an A320 on DTW/MCO as of now and the turn time in MCO is only 25 minutes, judging other turn times it could be possible that a 321 will go ATL-MCO and do the leg above. I'm over analyzing it but hey I'm having fun doing it.
...the carriage of liquids, gels, and aerosols are prohibited through the screening checkpoint except for travel size toiletries of 3 ounces or less...
 
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klm617
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 3

Sun Oct 30, 2016 11:25 pm

Well as another week comes to an end nothing really earth shattering has happened in the Detroit market lets hope with the new week ahead the WCCA can make some magic happen and bring us some exciting news..
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
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