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flymco753
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 3

Wed Nov 09, 2016 4:18 pm

Could DTW get Condor eventually? I also see the 744 is scheduled on 1 day this January on LH for the auto show.
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dtw2hyd
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 3

Wed Nov 09, 2016 4:36 pm

klm617 wrote:
... The last really big fan fair about any new flights they were trying to attract was the Dubai petition but they dropped it like a hot potato...


There was no public support. Even today that petition didn't reach required 5000 signatures. This is with 75,000 Indians in Michigan and a Million+ ME population.

Other airports are giving financial incentives to foreign carriers, not sure WCAA want to do that and annoy its major customer.
All posts are just opinions.
 
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 3

Wed Nov 09, 2016 4:36 pm

RJ running nonstops during the holidays instead of stopping in YUL.
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compensateme
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 3

Wed Nov 09, 2016 6:06 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
There was no public support. Even today that petition didn't reach required 5000 signatures. This is with 75,000 Indians in Michigan and a Million+ ME population.

Other airports are giving financial incentives to foreign carriers, not sure WCAA want to do that and annoy its major customer.


I've never understood the ignorance of believing that petitions will somehow create air service.

WCAA has long offered an incentive package that's designed to attract specifically new international air service.
We don’t care what your next flight is.
 
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 3

Thu Nov 10, 2016 12:05 am

compensateme wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
WCAA has long offered an incentive package that's designed to attract specifically new international air service.
Is there a public notam that has the specified amount? I wonder why some airlines haven't jumped on it yet. In terms of the next logical carrier to fly internationally from DTW, I would bet on FI, BA, or DY. FI would provide low cost European options, predominately to West Europe on thin markets like EDI, HAM, BRU, BCN, and MAD. If BA can secure a contract (I bet an auto supplier for RR could win it), they can come back on a 777 easily. DY can serve CPH or OSL, providing low cost options for East Europe for markets like WAW, RZE, KRA, that general area. What do you think? Who would you add?
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 3

Thu Nov 10, 2016 12:17 am

AC has an A319 in today, AC7086, not sure if it was a charter or not.
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klm617
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 3

Thu Nov 10, 2016 12:19 am

flymco753 wrote:
compensateme wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
WCAA has long offered an incentive package that's designed to attract specifically new international air service.
Is there a public notam that has the specified amount? I wonder why some airlines haven't jumped on it yet. In terms of the next logical carrier to fly internationally from DTW, I would bet on FI, BA, or DY. FI would provide low cost European options, predominately to West Europe on thin markets like EDI, HAM, BRU, BCN, and MAD. If BA can secure a contract (I bet an auto supplier for RR could win it), they can come back on a 777 easily. DY can serve CPH or OSL, providing low cost options for East Europe for markets like WAW, RZE, KRA, that general area. What do you think? Who would you add?



I agree with this and that's what I'd like to know. If PIT can attract international carriers and DTW can't with a much larger population base than the WCAA needs to step up their game. Nothing says they can't offer Delta the same incentive to stimulate more international traffic at DTW and we all know international traffic is what simulates a lot of revenue for the airport.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
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klm617
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 3

Thu Nov 10, 2016 12:22 am

compensateme wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
There was no public support. Even today that petition didn't reach required 5000 signatures. This is with 75,000 Indians in Michigan and a Million+ ME population.

Other airports are giving financial incentives to foreign carriers, not sure WCAA want to do that and annoy its major customer.


I've never understood the ignorance of believing that petitions will somehow create air service.

WCAA has long offered an incentive package that's designed to attract specifically new international air service.



What exactly are they offering.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
alfa164
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 3

Thu Nov 10, 2016 6:08 am

flymco753 wrote:
. If BA can secure a contract (I bet an auto supplier for RR could win it), they can come back on a 777 easily.


While RR may be a "British" brand, it is owned by BMW, and its executives - the people who would help fill those Business Class seats - would mostly be flying to and from Munich... if they had any interest in visiting Detroit. There is no evidence that they do.

klm617 wrote:
compensateme wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
There was no public support. Even today that petition didn't reach required 5000 signatures. This is with 75,000 Indians in Michigan and a Million+ ME population.
Other airports are giving financial incentives to foreign carriers, not sure WCAA want to do that and annoy its major customer.


I've never understood the ignorance of believing that petitions will somehow create air service.
WCAA has long offered an incentive package that's designed to attract specifically new international air service.


What exactly are they offering.


Have you ever considered researching the answer yourself, instead of expecting someone else to do it for you? :roll:

klm617 wrote:
If PIT can attract international carriers and DTW can't with a much larger population base than the WCAA needs to step up their game..


Maybe they don't want to come to DTW because they don't want to put up with some juvenile whiner... just sayin'...
I'm going to have a smokin' hot body again!
I have decided to be cremated....
 
michman
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 3

Thu Nov 10, 2016 9:25 am

flymco753 wrote:
AC has an A319 in today, AC7086, not sure if it was a charter or not.


Charter for the Canucks who are playing the Red Wings tonight.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 3

Thu Nov 10, 2016 12:06 pm

alfa164 wrote:
Maybe they don't want to come to DTW because they don't want to put up with some juvenile whiner... just sayin'...


DL surely but steadily improving their hard product and services (baby steps) and it has VS to fill gaps, BA is turning itself into a ULCC. Apart from DL charging too much during peak season on DTW-LHR, it is well prepared to compete with BA.

With B6 DTW-BOS introduction fares came down from $600 to $180, but DL didn't whine or withdraw, it up-gauged all frequencies to A320s
All posts are just opinions.
 
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klm617
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 3

Thu Nov 10, 2016 5:25 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
alfa164 wrote:
Maybe they don't want to come to DTW because they don't want to put up with some juvenile whiner... just sayin'...


DL surely but steadily improving their hard product and services (baby steps) and it has VS to fill gaps, BA is turning itself into a ULCC. Apart from DL charging too much during peak season on DTW-LHR, it is well prepared to compete with BA.

With B6 DTW-BOS introduction fares came down from $600 to $180, but DL didn't whine or withdraw, it up-gauged all frequencies to A320s



Exactly my point and this market needs more of that. If B6 can turn a profit at $180 then you know Delta was printing money at $600 at the expense of the traveling publics hard earn money. Bring on Icelandair or WOW Air please.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
alfa164
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 3

Thu Nov 10, 2016 6:54 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
With B6 DTW-BOS introduction fares came down from $600 to $180, but DL didn't whine or withdraw, it up-gauged all frequencies to A320s


I wasn't referring to DL; I was referring to the juvenile poster who constantly hijacks this thread with whines about DTW in general and the WCAA in particular...
'
klm617 wrote:
Exactly my point and this market needs more of that. If B6 can turn a profit at $180 then you know Delta was printing money at $600 at the expense of the traveling publics hard earn money. Bring on Icelandair or WOW Air please.


...he's baaaaack... :roll:
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I have decided to be cremated....
 
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11725Flyer
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 3

Fri Nov 11, 2016 12:56 am

And yet I was called a troll for pointing out the the poster in question posts one thing in one thread, and a different viewpoint in another. It's maddening.

Back on topic, I'm looking forward to traveling to DTW in a few months to attend a wedding. Last I was there, it was before the DL/NW merger, and I booked a connection that is 2 1/2 hours so I can do some sightseeing. I can hardly wait!
 
alfa164
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 3

Fri Nov 11, 2016 2:21 am

11725Flyer wrote:
And yet I was called a troll for pointing out the the poster in question posts one thing in one thread, and a different viewpoint in another. It's maddening.

Back on topic, I'm looking forward to traveling to DTW in a few months to attend a wedding. Last I was there, it was before the DL/NW merger, and I booked a connection that is 2 1/2 hours so I can do some sightseeing. I can hardly wait!

If you have time, go to The Henry Ford. You won't regret it!
I'm going to have a smokin' hot body again!
I have decided to be cremated....
 
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 3

Fri Nov 11, 2016 3:37 pm

DELTA scheduled A321 service to Detroit.
DL2270 ATL-DTW 08Jun 05:35PM 08Jun 07:44PM 321
DL2366 DTW-PDX 08Jun 08:35PM 08Jun 10:25PM 321
DL1119 PDX-DTW 08Jun 11:20PM 09Jun 06:30AM 321
DL2263 DTW-ATL 08Jun 07:30AM 08Jun 09:26AM 321
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 3

Sat Nov 12, 2016 6:59 pm

Here's a good article about how DTW is going right now. It explains the WCAA strong and weak points as well as the competition between DL and NK. Both of DTW's Hub carriers are doing well in Detroit but I want to specifically note Spirit, they've seen a 17% increase in enplanements, next summer I can see this number rising with them having MCO upgauged on the A321, an additional 3rd flight to FLL, the addition of a second flight to LAX and DFW, as well as aircraft upgrades. On the other hand, it explains the realignment of DL's hub, now that there's a lot of O&D, you may see more additions to places like ABQ, SMF, and SNA where locals are flying to with no direct service.
http://sports.yahoo.com/news/fitch-affi ... 00376.html
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klm617
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 3

Sat Nov 12, 2016 10:10 pm

flymco753 wrote:
Here's a good article about how DTW is going right now. It explains the WCAA strong and weak points as well as the competition between DL and NK. Both of DTW's Hub carriers are doing well in Detroit but I want to specifically note Spirit, they've seen a 17% increase in enplanements, next summer I can see this number rising with them having MCO upgauged on the A321, an additional 3rd flight to FLL, the addition of a second flight to LAX and DFW, as well as aircraft upgrades. On the other hand, it explains the realignment of DL's hub, now that there's a lot of O&D, you may see more additions to places like ABQ, SMF, and SNA where locals are flying to with no direct service.
http://sports.yahoo.com/news/fitch-affi ... 00376.html




DTW is heavily reliant on its dominant carrier, Delta ('BBB-'/Stable, which maintains a significant market share with 74% of airport enplanements. The traffic profile is 48% connecting, leaving DTW susceptible to realignment of Delta's hubbing service I found this comment very interesting which means that there is speculation that Delta will not maintain the same level of service at DTW which we see actually happing now by the slow erosion of Delta flights at DTW. I really think the greatest contributor to the amount of passengers rising that are flowing through DTW is coming from the other airlines that are adding flights here and there. Does anyone have the Delta enplanement numbers from last year verse this year.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 3

Sun Nov 13, 2016 12:19 am

klm617 wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
Here's a good article about how DTW is going right now. It explains the WCAA strong and weak points as well as the competition between DL and NK. Both of DTW's Hub carriers are doing well in Detroit but I want to specifically note Spirit, they've seen a 17% increase in enplanements, next summer I can see this number rising with them having MCO upgauged on the A321, an additional 3rd flight to FLL, the addition of a second flight to LAX and DFW, as well as aircraft upgrades. On the other hand, it explains the realignment of DL's hub, now that there's a lot of O&D, you may see more additions to places like ABQ, SMF, and SNA where locals are flying to with no direct service.
http://sports.yahoo.com/news/fitch-affi ... 00376.html




DTW is heavily reliant on its dominant carrier, Delta ('BBB-'/Stable, which maintains a significant market share with 74% of airport enplanements. The traffic profile is 48% connecting, leaving DTW susceptible to realignment of Delta's hubbing service I found this comment very interesting which means that there is speculation that Delta will not maintain the same level of service at DTW which we see actually happing now by the slow erosion of Delta flights at DTW. I really think the greatest contributor to the amount of passengers rising that are flowing through DTW is coming from the other airlines that are adding flights here and there. Does anyone have the Delta enplanement numbers from last year verse this year.
I'm pretty sure other airlines will begin to take advantage of it here soon. I've already predicted NK was going to add PHL and BWI, AM return and UA adding SFO. I could bet the next additions would be AA to LAX, B6 to MCO, and AS to PDX and SAN. Those would be the 3 I would put money on.
...the carriage of liquids, gels, and aerosols are prohibited through the screening checkpoint except for travel size toiletries of 3 ounces or less...
 
flyDTW1992
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 3

Sun Nov 13, 2016 2:25 am

klm617 wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
Here's a good article about how DTW is going right now. It explains the WCAA strong and weak points as well as the competition between DL and NK. Both of DTW's Hub carriers are doing well in Detroit but I want to specifically note Spirit, they've seen a 17% increase in enplanements, next summer I can see this number rising with them having MCO upgauged on the A321, an additional 3rd flight to FLL, the addition of a second flight to LAX and DFW, as well as aircraft upgrades. On the other hand, it explains the realignment of DL's hub, now that there's a lot of O&D, you may see more additions to places like ABQ, SMF, and SNA where locals are flying to with no direct service.
http://sports.yahoo.com/news/fitch-affi ... 00376.html




DTW is heavily reliant on its dominant carrier, Delta ('BBB-'/Stable, which maintains a significant market share with 74% of airport enplanements. The traffic profile is 48% connecting, leaving DTW susceptible to realignment of Delta's hubbing service I found this comment very interesting which means that there is speculation that Delta will not maintain the same level of service at DTW which we see actually happing now by the slow erosion of Delta flights at DTW. I really think the greatest contributor to the amount of passengers rising that are flowing through DTW is coming from the other airlines that are adding flights here and there. Does anyone have the Delta enplanement numbers from last year verse this year.


I don't think there's any legitimate reason for concern as far as Delta "realigning" DTW. They knew full well when they acquired it that traffic was about half connecting, that's why they have a highly efficient terminal design built to handle both a large number of regional jets and small mainline aircraft all the way up to the larget widebodies going to Asia. DTW is situated very well geographically for connecting traffic, just as ORD is for UA and AA. The relationship between DL and WCAA is symbiotic, and at this point in time I don't think either one is particularly interested in breaking it up. Recent investments in the terminal, adds by DL like the second LHR flight and MUC, upgauges in response to competition, etc, all indicate there is at least commitment to a stable status quo.

Also, next year the initial A350 base will open up at DTW, keeping pilots, management pilots, line maintenance expertise, and support elements on airport, which is a good sign that Delta doesn't want to pack up and give up on Detroit.
Now you're flying smart
 
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klm617
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 3

Mon Nov 14, 2016 12:57 am

flyDTW1992 wrote:
klm617 wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
Here's a good article about how DTW is going right now. It explains the WCAA strong and weak points as well as the competition between DL and NK. Both of DTW's Hub carriers are doing well in Detroit but I want to specifically note Spirit, they've seen a 17% increase in enplanements, next summer I can see this number rising with them having MCO upgauged on the A321, an additional 3rd flight to FLL, the addition of a second flight to LAX and DFW, as well as aircraft upgrades. On the other hand, it explains the realignment of DL's hub, now that there's a lot of O&D, you may see more additions to places like ABQ, SMF, and SNA where locals are flying to with no direct service.
http://sports.yahoo.com/news/fitch-affi ... 00376.html




DTW is heavily reliant on its dominant carrier, Delta ('BBB-'/Stable, which maintains a significant market share with 74% of airport enplanements. The traffic profile is 48% connecting, leaving DTW susceptible to realignment of Delta's hubbing service I found this comment very interesting which means that there is speculation that Delta will not maintain the same level of service at DTW which we see actually happing now by the slow erosion of Delta flights at DTW. I really think the greatest contributor to the amount of passengers rising that are flowing through DTW is coming from the other airlines that are adding flights here and there. Does anyone have the Delta enplanement numbers from last year verse this year.





I don't think there's any legitimate reason for concern as far as Delta "realigning" DTW. They knew full well when they acquired it that traffic was about half connecting, that's why they have a highly efficient terminal design built to handle both a large number of regional jets and small mainline aircraft all the way up to the larget widebodies going to Asia. DTW is situated very well geographically for connecting traffic, just as ORD is for UA and AA. The relationship between DL and WCAA is symbiotic, and at this point in time I don't think either one is particularly interested in breaking it up. Recent investments in the terminal, adds by DL like the second LHR flight and MUC, upgauges in response to competition, etc, all indicate there is at least commitment to a stable status quo.

Also, next year the initial A350 base will open up at DTW, keeping pilots, management pilots, line maintenance expertise, and support elements on airport, which is a good sign that Delta doesn't want to pack up and give up on Detroit.


The second Delta flight to LHR has been on and off for many years now not only that VS is ending their flights here which again is a negative rather than a positive and reaming status quo is exactly the problem no growth doesn't help the airport at all. I really don't think the airport has any strategic plan as far as growth goes. I know you all believe that DL has this great commitment to DTW but nothing shows that look at all the route add DL makes non of them touch DTW and I also predict that you will see them shrink little by little here just enough for no one to make a big stink but one day it will show exactly the amount of reduction they have done in the Detroit market. Many international routes have been added in the last few years that actively take away connecting passengers from the Detroit in favor of connections over SLC, SEA, MSP and ATL. People need to wake up and smell the coffee Delta is not as committed to Detroit as you all believe.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
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klm617
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 3

Mon Nov 14, 2016 1:06 am

alfa164 wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
. If BA can secure a contract (I bet an auto supplier for RR could win it), they can come back on a 777 easily.


While RR may be a "British" brand, it is owned by BMW, and its executives - the people who would help fill those Business Class seats - would mostly be flying to and from Munich... if they had any interest in visiting Detroit. There is no evidence that they do.

klm617 wrote:
compensateme wrote:

I've never understood the ignorance of believing that petitions will somehow create air service.
WCAA has long offered an incentive package that's designed to attract specifically new international air service.


What exactly are they offering.


Have you ever considered researching the answer yourself, instead of expecting someone else to do it for you? :roll:

klm617 wrote:
If PIT can attract international carriers and DTW can't with a much larger population base than the WCAA needs to step up their game..


Maybe they don't want to come to DTW because they don't want to put up with some juvenile whiner... just sayin'...



I found this if this is still the incentives the WCAA is offering no wonder they get no takers there is nothing in there about revenue guarantees and really how much can an airline spend on advertising their incentive program is laughable.

http://www.wcaa.us/Portals/WCAACorp/WCA ... iption.pdf
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
alfa164
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 3

Mon Nov 14, 2016 2:32 am

klm617 wrote:
alfa164 wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
. If BA can secure a contract (I bet an auto supplier for RR could win it), they can come back on a 777 easily.

While RR may be a "British" brand, it is owned by BMW, and its executives - the people who would help fill those Business Class seats - would mostly be flying to and from Munich... if they had any interest in visiting Detroit. There is no evidence that they do.
klm617 wrote:
What exactly are they offering.

Have you ever considered researching the answer yourself, instead of expecting someone else to do it for you? :roll:
klm617 wrote:
If PIT can attract international carriers and DTW can't with a much larger population base than the WCAA needs to step up their game..

Maybe they don't want to come to DTW because they don't want to put up with some juvenile whiner... just sayin'...

I found this if this is still the incentives the WCAA is offering no wonder they get no takers there is nothing in there about revenue guarantees and really how much can an airline spend on advertising their incentive program is laughable.
http://www.wcaa.us/Portals/WCAACorp/WCA ... iption.pdf


If Detroit is as great an opportunity as you claim it is, an airline shouldn't need an incentive. Route planners aren't stupid; they do the research to determine what is in the best interests of their airline.

You can't keep whining that DTW is such a great opportunity... but it needs bigger incentives... and/or the airlines have simply overlooked it... but they should be coming here right away... well, I guess you can keep claiming that. But nobody pays any attention to such a silly argument.

Damn... I just fed a troll again...
I'm going to have a smokin' hot body again!
I have decided to be cremated....
 
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klm617
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 3

Mon Nov 14, 2016 1:58 pm

alfa164 wrote:
klm617 wrote:
alfa164 wrote:
While RR may be a "British" brand, it is owned by BMW, and its executives - the people who would help fill those Business Class seats - would mostly be flying to and from Munich... if they had any interest in visiting Detroit. There is no evidence that they do.

Have you ever considered researching the answer yourself, instead of expecting someone else to do it for you? :roll:

Maybe they don't want to come to DTW because they don't want to put up with some juvenile whiner... just sayin'...

I found this if this is still the incentives the WCAA is offering no wonder they get no takers there is nothing in there about revenue guarantees and really how much can an airline spend on advertising their incentive program is laughable.
http://www.wcaa.us/Portals/WCAACorp/WCA ... iption.pdf


If Detroit is as great an opportunity as you claim it is, an airline shouldn't need an incentive. Route planners aren't stupid; they do the research to determine what is in the best interests of their airline.

You can't keep whining that DTW is such a great opportunity... but it needs bigger incentives... and/or the airlines have simply overlooked it... but they should be coming here right away... well, I guess you can keep claiming that. But nobody pays any attention to such a silly argument.

Damn... I just fed a troll again...



First of all I understand DTW is no JFK,ORD,DFW,IAH,MIA or LAS but when you have airports out there like PDX,MSP,PIT,RDU,BWI and the like offering revenue guarantees no matter how good the Detroit market is those airlines will chose the other airports over DTW as they are a much safer bet. So until the WCAA steps up their game guess what DTW is going to get over looked. This airport has draw from almost half of lower Michigan, Northern Ohio and Western Ontario and please don't tell me that if an airline came into Detroit with the right incentives until they got established against big bad Delta that they couldn't make DTW work. You have he ME3 with limited slots in Canada and you have one of the biggest international cities on the Canadian border and you can't land one of these carriers. Its says a lot when you use Porter to interline with over BOS as a better option than an airport right on the Canadian border where you could provide one stop connections rather than a double connect with Porter over BOS from Toronto to India.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
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enilria
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 3

Mon Nov 14, 2016 2:14 pm

klm617 wrote:
but when you have airports out there like PDX,MSP,PIT,RDU,BWI and the like offering revenue guarantees


P.22
Q34: May I guarantee gross passenger revenue?
A34: No. That could result in a subsidy paid to the air carrier in
violation of the Revenue Use Policy.


https://www.faa.gov/airports/airport_co ... e-2010.pdf
 
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 3

Mon Nov 14, 2016 2:47 pm

Let's play route roulette, what do you think the first DL A350 route will be? My bet is PVG.
...the carriage of liquids, gels, and aerosols are prohibited through the screening checkpoint except for travel size toiletries of 3 ounces or less...
 
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klm617
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 3

Mon Nov 14, 2016 8:26 pm

flymco753 wrote:
Let's play route roulette, what do you think the first DL A350 route will be? My bet is PVG.



ATL-SEA
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
flyDTW1992
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 3

Tue Nov 15, 2016 3:44 am

klm617 wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
Let's play route roulette, what do you think the first DL A350 route will be? My bet is PVG.



ATL-SEA

That'd be pretty weird given the pilots are in DTW.

....Oh, right, and it's an 8,000nm-range aircraft meant to replace 747-400s......
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 3

Wed Nov 16, 2016 4:38 pm

B6 continues BOS A320 service next summer. Frequency remains 3x on BOS, 1x on FLL.
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SANFan
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 3

Wed Nov 16, 2016 6:39 pm

I thought I'd jump in here with a couple of ideas concerning DTW-SAN service.

I notice that NK is now offering direct, no change of plane, r/t service between SAN and DTW (via Vegas on the 11/10 schedule.) Not really a huge deal except history tells me that in some cases, and I've seen it before even in SAN, the carrier seems to offer 1-stop, r/t service in a city pair for a while, and eventually they start nonstop service. (They did this with SAN and ORD, offering r/t, 1-stop service for a year or 2, testing the market for traffic, then finally adding nonstop service.)

In fact they're also doing the same thing with SAN-FLL (r/t via IAH) and I wouldn't be shocked to see them start ns SAN-FLL one of these days, competing with B6.

As far as AS and DTW-SAN is concerned, the trend is certainly hot and heavy for that airline to continue connecting-the-dots in their network, and they are certainly doing that with San Diego. They just today announced another transcon out of SAN -- BWI, a route with one competitor -- and DTW would be exactly the same situation. As they continue to add healthy routes with either no or limited competition, I would be very surprised if DTW-SAN were not high on their "To Do" list!

With Spirit's good-sized operation at DTW, and Alaska's healthy presence in SAN, the route could work well for either. I expect that sooner or later, either of these cx could easily jump into the market.

bb
 
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 3

Wed Nov 16, 2016 7:17 pm

SANFan wrote:
I thought I'd jump in here with a couple of ideas concerning DTW-SAN service.
Thanks for stopping by, with DTW and FLL being NK's 2 hubs I can see it happening. There's both premium and leisure traffic, both in which I've personally used to SAN and AS could capture both, while NK would be oriented towards the leisure side. Usually NK announces DTW routes at the end of December early January, which has been the trend the last few years so maybe that'll include a SAN announcement. NK is already doubling up on LAX and DFW as well as increasing capacity for next summer so we can only see what their announcements will hold.
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 3

Wed Nov 16, 2016 7:38 pm

DTW-MUC is coming back as part as Delta's expanded Trans-Atlantic network to Europe "following a very successful first season in 2016". Currently on Delta's booking it shows a 76W, while FCO and CDG and 1 AMS flight will be a 333, a total of 7 332's (AMS, NGO, PEK, GRU and PEK), and a cut in LHR service from 2x daily (333+764) to 1x daily 76W. PVG, NRT and ICN show 744's but either ICN or PVG is going to give way to a 350 here soon.
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hjulicher
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 3

Wed Nov 16, 2016 9:13 pm

For my sake, even though it's on a competitor, I'm glad DL is bringing back DTW-MUC. I wonder if a very successful first season can also translate into year-round service?

How is it that DTW can only support one r/t service to London?
Is AMS going to 4x daily in the summer?
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 3

Wed Nov 16, 2016 9:22 pm

hjulicher wrote:
For my sake, even though it's on a competitor, I'm glad DL is bringing back DTW-MUC. I wonder if a very successful first season can also translate into year-round service?

How is it that DTW can only support one r/t service to London?
Is AMS going to 4x daily in the summer?
AMS will only go 4x on days where one of the 332's are not used on GRU. Last I heard the goal was to eventually go year round to make way for another seasonal link, i.e. Manchester UK.
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 3

Wed Nov 16, 2016 9:27 pm

hjulicher wrote:
For my sake, even though it's on a competitor, I'm glad DL is bringing back DTW-MUC. I wonder if a very successful first season can also translate into year-round service?

How is it that DTW can only support one r/t service to London?
Is AMS going to 4x daily in the summer?
Also regarding LHR, this is a big cut, is it due to Brexit? Maybe it's prime time for BA to get into DTW, or DY flies LGW. 1x daily LHR 76W is a significant cut from 2x LHR 1x 333 and 1x 764
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PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 3

Wed Nov 16, 2016 9:40 pm

Not sure exactly what time-frame you are looking at but I'm seeing the following currently for sale in June & July:

DTW-AMS 4x every day except Fridays when its 3x (3x A332 + 1x A333)
DTW-LHR 10x weekly 76W (daily + 2nd daily on Sun, Tue, Thu)

This far out I wouldn't exactly fully trust aircraft type for Summer 2017 which far out enough to be subject to change.
 
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 3

Wed Nov 16, 2016 10:17 pm

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
Not sure exactly what time-frame you are looking at but I'm seeing the following currently for sale in June & July:

DTW-AMS 4x every day except Fridays when its 3x (3x A332 + 1x A333)
DTW-LHR 10x weekly 76W (daily + 2nd daily on Sun, Tue, Thu)

This far out I wouldn't exactly fully trust aircraft type for Summer 2017 which far out enough to be subject to change.
Makes me wonder, I think LHR would be fine on a 332, IMO. I wonder how long GRU will stay around, from what I head the LF's are pretty good.
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 3

Thu Nov 17, 2016 4:49 pm

Well I think it's a pretty safe to assume that there will be no more announcements about service additions for the Detroit market in 2017. I predict that even though there was an increase in passengers using DTW in 2017 I suspect those numbers will gradually start trending down ward from 2017 going forward as we will continue to see service reductions at DTW by flights being added at other airports that divert connecting traffic away from Detroit and the retirement of the 747 and replacing it with a smaller aircraft and transferring the lost capacity through other airports. I know you all don't believe me but the proof is in the pudding DTW is still RJ heaven while other airports are being up gauged for a better customer experience before you know it the value of DTW as a good place to make connections will be lost because when flyers have a choice they would gladly fly a mainline jet rather than an RJ and let's face it DTW is flooded with RJs.
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compensateme
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 3

Thu Nov 17, 2016 5:57 pm

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
This far out I wouldn't exactly fully trust aircraft type for Summer 2017 which far out enough to be subject to change.


Historically, there's few changes made after DL releases its summer longhaul schedule the previous fall. So, what we see is likely what we'll get.
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hjulicher
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 3

Thu Nov 17, 2016 6:50 pm

klm617 wrote:
Well I think it's a pretty safe to assume that there will be no more announcements about service additions for the Detroit market in 2017. I predict that even though there was an increase in passengers using DTW in 2017 I suspect those numbers will gradually start trending down ward from 2017 going forward as we will continue to see service reductions at DTW by flights being added at other airports that divert connecting traffic away from Detroit and the retirement of the 747 and replacing it with a smaller aircraft and transferring the lost capacity through other airports. I know you all don't believe me but the proof is in the pudding DTW is still RJ heaven while other airports are being up gauged for a better customer experience before you know it the value of DTW as a good place to make connections will be lost because when flyers have a choice they would gladly fly a mainline jet rather than an RJ and let's face it DTW is flooded with RJs.


Please stop with your dribble. It's unnecessary. DTW will see more additions in 2017. The market is growing and is healthy. You may not see an new international carrier enter the market, but you will see up gauges in the market. Perhaps the 744 will return to Detroit via the 'Air Team' next summer?

And for the record, I'd welcome the A350 in Detroit any day. The B744 is the queen of the skies and is a very striking, but customer experience wise, the A350 will be much better.

Also, Detroit is not at capacity passenger terminal wise, but continued growth and passenger numbers seem like a great thing and give you bragging rights (and revenues) but at some point, it becomes undesirable with longer lines, crowded dirty terminals. A convenient large HUB is much preferable to a mega HUB busting at the seams.
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klm617
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 3

Thu Nov 17, 2016 10:34 pm

hjulicher wrote:
klm617 wrote:
Well I think it's a pretty safe to assume that there will be no more announcements about service additions for the Detroit market in 2017. I predict that even though there was an increase in passengers using DTW in 2017 I suspect those numbers will gradually start trending down ward from 2017 going forward as we will continue to see service reductions at DTW by flights being added at other airports that divert connecting traffic away from Detroit and the retirement of the 747 and replacing it with a smaller aircraft and transferring the lost capacity through other airports. I know you all don't believe me but the proof is in the pudding DTW is still RJ heaven while other airports are being up gauged for a better customer experience before you know it the value of DTW as a good place to make connections will be lost because when flyers have a choice they would gladly fly a mainline jet rather than an RJ and let's face it DTW is flooded with RJs.


Please stop with your dribble. It's unnecessary. DTW will see more additions in 2017. The market is growing and is healthy. You may not see an new international carrier enter the market, but you will see up gauges in the market. Perhaps the 744 will return to Detroit via the 'Air Team' next summer?

And for the record, I'd welcome the A350 in Detroit any day. The B744 is the queen of the skies and is a very striking, but customer experience wise, the A350 will be much better.

Also, Detroit is not at capacity passenger terminal wise, but continued growth and passenger numbers seem like a great thing and give you bragging rights (and revenues) but at some point, it becomes undesirable with longer lines, crowded dirty terminals. A convenient large HUB is much preferable to a mega HUB busting at the seams.



First of all Detroit is not a growing market it is in decline as stated by many posters on this thread alone. I have been told the WCAA has a very competitive incentive package but yet it attracts nothing which means one thing there is no further market to gain here which means DTW is tapped out upgaguging is just smoke and mirrors. Real evidence of a growing market is when new service is started or a new carrier has entered the market some thing that is happening in all comparable market the size of Detroit. There is no evidence that Detroit is a preferred hub over any other hub as many people chose to transfer at either MSP or ATL that is why they keep adding additional capacity at those airports when Detroit keeps getting downgauged almost all the domestic wide body flights have been eliminated at DTW and as I said when the A350 replaces the 744 the will further reduce capacity at Detroit. The proof is there why don't people see what's going on at this airport.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
alfa164
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 3

Fri Nov 18, 2016 1:22 am

klm617 wrote:
hjulicher wrote:
klm617 wrote:
Well I think it's a pretty safe to assume that there will be no more announcements about service additions for the Detroit market in 2017. I predict that even though there was an increase in passengers using DTW in 2017 I suspect those numbers will gradually start trending down ward from 2017 going forward as we will continue to see service reductions at DTW by flights being added at other airports that divert connecting traffic away from Detroit and the retirement of the 747 and replacing it with a smaller aircraft and transferring the lost capacity through other airports. I know you all don't believe me but the proof is in the pudding DTW is still RJ heaven while other airports are being up gauged for a better customer experience before you know it the value of DTW as a good place to make connections will be lost because when flyers have a choice they would gladly fly a mainline jet rather than an RJ and let's face it DTW is flooded with RJs.

Please stop with your dribble. It's unnecessary. DTW will see more additions in 2017. The market is growing and is healthy. You may not see an new international carrier enter the market, but you will see up gauges in the market. Perhaps the 744 will return to Detroit via the 'Air Team' next summer?
And for the record, I'd welcome the A350 in Detroit any day. The B744 is the queen of the skies and is a very striking, but customer experience wise, the A350 will be much better.
Also, Detroit is not at capacity passenger terminal wise, but continued growth and passenger numbers seem like a great thing and give you bragging rights (and revenues) but at some point, it becomes undesirable with longer lines, crowded dirty terminals. A convenient large HUB is much preferable to a mega HUB busting at the seams.



First of all Detroit is not a growing market it is in decline as stated by many posters on this thread alone. I have been told the WCAA has a very competitive incentive package but yet it attracts nothing which means one thing there is no further market to gain here which means DTW is tapped out upgaguging is just smoke and mirrors. Real evidence of a growing market is when new service is started or a new carrier has entered the market some thing that is happening in all comparable market the size of Detroit. There is no evidence that Detroit is a preferred hub over any other hub as many people chose to transfer at either MSP or ATL that is why they keep adding additional capacity at those airports when Detroit keeps getting downgauged almost all the domestic wide body flights have been eliminated at DTW and as I said when the A350 replaces the 744 the will further reduce capacity at Detroit. The proof is there why don't people see what's going on at this airport.

Do you have any idea what you are talking about? You have spent months claiming the WCAA was doing nothing... and now you say they have a "very competitive incentive package..." That doesn't sound like they are sitting on their hands! It isn't their fault no carrier wants to add DTW to its schedule.

You have also been claiming that DTW was a prime market for new airlines and new flights... now you admit "it is not a growing market it is in decline". And if "many people choose to transfer at either MSP or ATL", why do you blame the airline for allowing them to do that? Should an airline put handcuffs on their passengers and move them through DTW against their will?

Your rants just continue to be more and more meaningless.....
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 3

Fri Nov 18, 2016 3:09 am

compensateme wrote:
PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
This far out I wouldn't exactly fully trust aircraft type for Summer 2017 which far out enough to be subject to change.


Historically, there's few changes made after DL releases its summer longhaul schedule the previous fall. So, what we see is likely what we'll get.
I would say the only thing we could expect is change of aircraft which happens often. I don't think that the 350 will show until they have a firm date when the 350 will come online, they didn't put the 321 on the schedule until about 5 months prior to the first aircraft delivery.
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PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 3

Fri Nov 18, 2016 3:16 am

1) The foretasted annual growth for DTW enplanements is 1% annually. There is some organic growth largely based on an improved local economy but you aren't seeing growth due to organic market growth. Southeastern Michigan as a whole is a low growth region compared to the amount of forecasted growth in markets like DEN, SEA, SFO, LAX.

2) People don't necessarily choose to connect in MSP or ATL versus DTW, a lot of that is driven by schedule/price. For DL, because ATL is a mega hub and predominantly operated with 125-180 seat aircraft it has lower CASM and can spread costs among far more flights and passenger than medium sized hubs like DTW and MSP.

3) DTW has seen a significant amount of upgauging over the past 5 years. Less 50 seaters, more 66-70-76 seat 2 class RJs, and 717 flights that replaces some of the former DC-9 type flying..
 
flyDTW1992
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 3

Fri Nov 18, 2016 3:55 am

Dear god. I am so done with this thread
Now you're flying smart
 
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klm617
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 3

Fri Nov 18, 2016 4:08 pm

alfa164 wrote:
klm617 wrote:
hjulicher wrote:
Please stop with your dribble. It's unnecessary. DTW will see more additions in 2017. The market is growing and is healthy. You may not see an new international carrier enter the market, but you will see up gauges in the market. Perhaps the 744 will return to Detroit via the 'Air Team' next summer?
And for the record, I'd welcome the A350 in Detroit any day. The B744 is the queen of the skies and is a very striking, but customer experience wise, the A350 will be much better.
Also, Detroit is not at capacity passenger terminal wise, but continued growth and passenger numbers seem like a great thing and give you bragging rights (and revenues) but at some point, it becomes undesirable with longer lines, crowded dirty terminals. A convenient large HUB is much preferable to a mega HUB busting at the seams.



First of all Detroit is not a growing market it is in decline as stated by many posters on this thread alone. I have been told the WCAA has a very competitive incentive package but yet it attracts nothing which means one thing there is no further market to gain here which means DTW is tapped out upgaguging is just smoke and mirrors. Real evidence of a growing market is when new service is started or a new carrier has entered the market some thing that is happening in all comparable market the size of Detroit. There is no evidence that Detroit is a preferred hub over any other hub as many people chose to transfer at either MSP or ATL that is why they keep adding additional capacity at those airports when Detroit keeps getting downgauged almost all the domestic wide body flights have been eliminated at DTW and as I said when the A350 replaces the 744 the will further reduce capacity at Detroit. The proof is there why don't people see what's going on at this airport.

Do you have any idea what you are talking about? You have spent months claiming the WCAA was doing nothing... and now you say they have a "very competitive incentive package..." That doesn't sound like they are sitting on their hands! It isn't their fault no carrier wants to add DTW to its schedule.

You have also been claiming that DTW was a prime market for new airlines and new flights... now you admit "it is not a growing market it is in decline". And if "many people choose to transfer at either MSP or ATL", why do you blame the airline for allowing them to do that? Should an airline put handcuffs on their passengers and move them through DTW against their will?

Your rants just continue to be more and more meaningless.....



I am just agreeing now with want all the posters are saying on this thread I have been wrong right from the start Detroit is a dying market that has very little if any draw to bring new entrants in this market. It is I who was wearing rose colored glasses that thought my home airport could attract anything other that what Delta has so graciously given us and from now on will see the market for what it is nothing more than a STL,CLE or PIT but was lucky enough to keep a hub carrier although for how long I don't know as Delta slowly but surely moves traffic away from Detroit in favor of MSP,ATL,SLC and SEA which all have seen notable gains. The DTW glory days are over as far as this market climbing up the ladder to a time when it was in the top ten airports in the US as far as emplacements. So I just want to say I am very sorry for all my misplaced enthusiasm and now agree with the A.net perception of the Detroit market that it is in decline as most have stated you will not see any more positive undocumented comments from me trying to drum up the enthusiasm of people on this tread with statements I can not back up because those kind of things I have learned are not welcome here people like facts they don't like possibilities or even get on board with them when they can be shot down with facts. So thank you for listening to my dribble and commenting on my posts you have all taught me a lot of how cynical people really are.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 3

Fri Nov 18, 2016 4:23 pm

Do you think the reason that DY hasn't added DTW yet is because of the opposition they're dealing with? I also think the problem with WOW and DTW is they would have to fly with a very restricted weight capacity considering the fact that DTW is on the far edge of the operating range for their A321.
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flymco753
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 3

Fri Nov 18, 2016 4:24 pm

If the case hasn't been made about SAN yet, taking the PDEW between all other cities that are monopolized, it falls in the top 5, this in my opinion could present a case for both NK and AS.
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shoelessjoe
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 3

Fri Nov 18, 2016 4:35 pm

Misplaced enthusiasm? When did I miss that? This has been a chicken-little/sky-is-falling routine from the beginning. You and every other poster knows the traffic numbers have been consistently up at DTW and that upgauging has been on-going (...mainline to the likes of Appleton, for instance) -- if you think connecting flows are being moved to SLC you have an utter and complete lack of understanding of mechanics, geography and economics.
 
thedetroitpole
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Re: Detroit Air Service Discussion Part 3

Fri Nov 18, 2016 4:45 pm

I think I have a solution for LOT in Detroit. I asked several Polish people of Detroit if they would utilize a nonstop to Warsaw and all of the 25 people said no, and these are first and second generation Polish. While I looked up the statistics, the Detroit/Livonia/Warren metropolitan area has a significant amount of Polish, but a low number suggests they fly back to Poland. I asked families (including mine) if they were willing to come to the US, majority states yes, so a direct flight from Warsaw to Detroit is not feasible if there is only feed happening from the Poland side.
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