CPA62
Topic Author
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YVR thread - 2016-2017

Sat Oct 08, 2016 3:53 am

YVR seem to be having a good year. year to August 31 passenger numbers up 10.1% overall with European passengers numbers up 15% and Asia Pacific up 13.9% and Mexico south America up 25%

some new routes started and announced in 2016:
YVR-BNE AC
YVR-NGO AC
YVR-TPE AC
YVR-DEL AC
YVR-XMN MF
YVR-MEX AM
YVR-DFW AC

Some rumoured routes for 2017:

YVR-HKG HX
YVR-IST TK
YVR-FRA AC
YVR-MAN AC
Last edited by SQ22 on Tue Jan 30, 2018 5:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Title updated
 
NichCage
Posts: 916
Joined: Wed Jun 22, 2016 6:43 pm

Re: YVR Thread

Sat Oct 08, 2016 4:02 am

YVR has been doing really good with all of the new routes for 2016. The YVR-HKG market is pretty big, and I also bet airlines like Cathay Pacific carry onward traffic to other Asian destinations, such as BKK, SIN, etc. If someone could answer this question for me, does Cathay Pacific in general fly a lot of traffic from North America to India? (like from YVR, SFO, LAX, etc).

Even though Turkish Airlines is cutting a lot of flights, long haul growth is now there focus. I am sure in the future Turkish Airlines will recover at some point, but they have annouced intentions to fly to YVR. Hopefully they get the permission this time to fly IST-YVR.

YVR-FRA is actually a route Air Canada wanted to fly for a while I think, but maybe they needed to wait for the right aircraft to fly the route, which could be the 787.

YVR-MAN would no doubt be flown by Air Canada Rouge, as I don't think the route would operate well on mainline.
 
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RL777
Posts: 648
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2016 1:43 am

Re: YVR Thread

Sat Oct 08, 2016 7:19 am

NichCage wrote:
YVR has been doing really good with all of the new routes for 2016. The YVR-HKG market is pretty big, and I also bet airlines like Cathay Pacific carry onward traffic to other Asian destinations, such as BKK, SIN, etc. If someone could answer this question for me, does Cathay Pacific in general fly a lot of traffic from North America to India? (like from YVR, SFO, LAX, etc).

Even though Turkish Airlines is cutting a lot of flights, long haul growth is now there focus. I am sure in the future Turkish Airlines will recover at some point, but they have annouced intentions to fly to YVR. Hopefully they get the permission this time to fly IST-YVR.

YVR-FRA is actually a route Air Canada wanted to fly for a while I think, but maybe they needed to wait for the right aircraft to fly the route, which could be the 787.

YVR-MAN would no doubt be flown by Air Canada Rouge, as I don't think the route would operate well on mainline.


India is the #1 connecting destination from YVR in the CX network with Shanghai following close behind.
 
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tacobell101
Posts: 112
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2015 12:41 am

Re: YVR Thread

Sat Oct 08, 2016 7:24 am

RL777 wrote:
NichCage wrote:
YVR has been doing really good with all of the new routes for 2016. The YVR-HKG market is pretty big, and I also bet airlines like Cathay Pacific carry onward traffic to other Asian destinations, such as BKK, SIN, etc. If someone could answer this question for me, does Cathay Pacific in general fly a lot of traffic from North America to India? (like from YVR, SFO, LAX, etc).

Even though Turkish Airlines is cutting a lot of flights, long haul growth is now there focus. I am sure in the future Turkish Airlines will recover at some point, but they have annouced intentions to fly to YVR. Hopefully they get the permission this time to fly IST-YVR.

YVR-FRA is actually a route Air Canada wanted to fly for a while I think, but maybe they needed to wait for the right aircraft to fly the route, which could be the 787.

YVR-MAN would no doubt be flown by Air Canada Rouge, as I don't think the route would operate well on mainline.


India is the #1 connecting destination from YVR in the CX network with Shanghai following close behind.


That being said, it won't surprise me if AC goes daily to Delhi
 
raylee67
Posts: 661
Joined: Mon Oct 24, 2011 11:06 pm

Re: YVR Thread

Sat Oct 08, 2016 9:55 am

Would not be surprised to see HX flying HKG-YVR. That's pretty much the only North American route its current fleet can fly to (using A332) without weight penalties both direction all year-round. And it's strong with connecting traffic to secondary cities in China, so YVR would be a no-brainer.

Of other possibilities, I think it would be quite possible that other secondary Chinese carriers will make entry into YVR. Since their hub operations are not very well-defined, they may fly from any secondary cities from China. I guess primary targets would be Nanjing, Hangzhou, Qingdao, Tianjin or even some inland cities such as Wuhan, Chengdu or Chongqing. It could be Tianjin Airlines, Capital Airlines, Hainan Airlines or Shenzhen Airlines, etc.

Would Bangalore be a possibility? There should be a lot of business (aka tech) traffic between Bangalore and North America. Vancouver would be an ideal connecting point for that. May be it can handle four or five weekly 788?

And then for VFR traffic to India, Amritsar would be a destinations with a lot of traffic too. Whether anyone can make that profitable is another question. I suppose it would be low yielding and highly seasonal.

If CX is successful in the new 3 weekly A359 flight to YVR, I wonder if it will make that flight daily, making YVR 3 daily, with 2x77W + 1x359, or downgauging one of the 77W flight to 359 to make it 1x77W + 2x359. After all, more 359s are coming online and CX's business model is to provide more frequencies.

Lastly, would AC be able to fly YVR-DXB 3/weekly with the current bilaterals with UAE? It permits UAE carriers to fly 6 weekly to Canada, in which EK and EY each is utilizing 3/weekly. I think AC is only doing 3/weekly on YYZ-DXB? That would mean AC can either increase frequency on YYZ-DXB, or it can run a monopoly route from DXB to another Canadian city with 3/weekly? During oil boom-time, I would expect that will go YYC-DXB, but now I think if AC is even thinking about adding another Canadian destination for DXB, that will be YVR-DXB.
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AA DL UA NW AC CP WS FL NK PD
CI NH SQ KA CX JL BR OZ TG KE CA CZ NZ JQ RS
 
Thenoflyzone
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Re: YVR Thread

Sat Oct 08, 2016 12:48 pm

NichCage wrote:

Even though Turkish Airlines is cutting a lot of flights, long haul growth is now there focus. I am sure in the future Turkish Airlines will recover at some point, but they have annouced intentions to fly to YVR. Hopefully they get the permission this time to fly IST-YVR.


TK are maxed out on their frequency allocation to Canada. Right now, they are 6x weekly to YYZ and 3x weekly to YUL and cannot increase. The bilateral will need to be tweaked in order to add new flights.

I doubt that will happen anytime soon. Also, i'm amazed AC is still flying to IST. I wouldn't be surprised if they call it quits on the route in the coming months.
us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
 
n272wa
Posts: 687
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2007 6:19 am

Re: YVR Thread

Sat Oct 08, 2016 1:27 pm

CPA62 wrote:
YVR seem to be having a good year. year to August 31 passenger numbers up 10.1% overall with European passengers numbers up 15% and Asia Pacific up 13.9% and Mexico south America up 25%

some new routes started and announced in 2016:
YVR-BNE AC
YVR-NGO AC
YVR-TPE AC
YVR-DEL AC
YVR-XMN MF
YVR-MEX AM
YVR-DFW AC

Some rumoured routes for 2017:

YVR-HKG HX
YVR-IST TK
YVR-FRA AC
YVR-MAN AC


AC Rouge also started Vancouver-Dublin this year which has done well and is returning in S17
 
NichCage
Posts: 916
Joined: Wed Jun 22, 2016 6:43 pm

Re: YVR Thread

Sat Oct 08, 2016 3:13 pm

Thenoflyzone wrote:
NichCage wrote:

Even though Turkish Airlines is cutting a lot of flights, long haul growth is now there focus. I am sure in the future Turkish Airlines will recover at some point, but they have annouced intentions to fly to YVR. Hopefully they get the permission this time to fly IST-YVR.


TK are maxed out on their frequency allocation to Canada. Right now, they are 6x weekly to YYZ and 3x weekly to YUL and cannot increase. The bilateral will need to be tweaked in order to add new flights.

I doubt that will happen anytime soon. Also, i'm amazed AC is still flying to IST. I wouldn't be surprised if they call it quits on the route in the coming months.


I think I read this off the Turkish Aviation thread, but I recall seeing that Air Canada has very good loads on YYZ-IST. I don't think Air Canada will ever cut YYZ-IST for now.
 
NichCage
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Re: YVR Thread

Sat Oct 08, 2016 3:16 pm

raylee67 wrote:
Would not be surprised to see HX flying HKG-YVR. That's pretty much the only North American route its current fleet can fly to (using A332) without weight penalties both direction all year-round. And it's strong with connecting traffic to secondary cities in China, so YVR would be a no-brainer.

Of other possibilities, I think it would be quite possible that other secondary Chinese carriers will make entry into YVR. Since their hub operations are not very well-defined, they may fly from any secondary cities from China. I guess primary targets would be Nanjing, Hangzhou, Qingdao, Tianjin or even some inland cities such as Wuhan, Chengdu or Chongqing. It could be Tianjin Airlines, Capital Airlines, Hainan Airlines or Shenzhen Airlines, etc.

Would Bangalore be a possibility? There should be a lot of business (aka tech) traffic between Bangalore and North America. Vancouver would be an ideal connecting point for that. May be it can handle four or five weekly 788?

And then for VFR traffic to India, Amritsar would be a destinations with a lot of traffic too. Whether anyone can make that profitable is another question. I suppose it would be low yielding and highly seasonal.

If CX is successful in the new 3 weekly A359 flight to YVR, I wonder if it will make that flight daily, making YVR 3 daily, with 2x77W + 1x359, or downgauging one of the 77W flight to 359 to make it 1x77W + 2x359. After all, more 359s are coming online and CX's business model is to provide more frequencies.

Lastly, would AC be able to fly YVR-DXB 3/weekly with the current bilaterals with UAE? It permits UAE carriers to fly 6 weekly to Canada, in which EK and EY each is utilizing 3/weekly. I think AC is only doing 3/weekly on YYZ-DXB? That would mean AC can either increase frequency on YYZ-DXB, or it can run a monopoly route from DXB to another Canadian city with 3/weekly? During oil boom-time, I would expect that will go YYC-DXB, but now I think if AC is even thinking about adding another Canadian destination for DXB, that will be YVR-DXB.


I have some thoughts about what you said about a YVR-BLR flight. First of all, while India is generally unserved from YVR at this point until Air Canada launches YVR-DEL, Vancouver does not have a tech industry. I may be wrong, but YVR-BLR would never be launched.
 
User001
Posts: 889
Joined: Sun Jun 19, 2016 2:18 pm

Re: YVR Thread

Sat Oct 08, 2016 3:41 pm

Probably no coincidence that as soon as Air Canada rumoured on Manchester-Vancouver, Air Transat increases its flights from 2 to 3 weekly from 21st June.

New flight bookable on Wednesdays.
 
usflyer123
Posts: 567
Joined: Thu May 26, 2016 6:21 pm

Re: YVR Thread

Sat Oct 08, 2016 4:12 pm

im pretty sure Copa can be successful in YVR.
for most people the sky is the limit. for those who love aviation, the sky is home...
 
BA
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Re: YVR Thread

Sat Oct 08, 2016 4:38 pm

Thenoflyzone wrote:
NichCage wrote:

Even though Turkish Airlines is cutting a lot of flights, long haul growth is now there focus. I am sure in the future Turkish Airlines will recover at some point, but they have annouced intentions to fly to YVR. Hopefully they get the permission this time to fly IST-YVR.


TK are maxed out on their frequency allocation to Canada. Right now, they are 6x weekly to YYZ and 3x weekly to YUL and cannot increase. The bilateral will need to be tweaked in order to add new flights.

I doubt that will happen anytime soon. Also, i'm amazed AC is still flying to IST. I wouldn't be surprised if they call it quits on the route in the coming months.


If TK is unable to fly to YVR, they will fly to SEA.

http://vancouversun.com/business/local- ... onnections
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
Viscount724
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Re: YVR Thread

Sat Oct 08, 2016 7:34 pm

usflyer123 wrote:
im pretty sure Copa can be successful in YVR.


YVR-PTY is beyond 737 range. It's slightly more than 1,000 miles further than YVR-HNL.
 
Viscount724
Posts: 19316
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

Re: YVR Thread

Sat Oct 08, 2016 7:40 pm

CPA62 wrote:
some new routes started and announced in 2016:

YVR-BNE AC
YVR-NGO AC
YVR-TPE AC
YVR-DEL AC
YVR-XMN MF
YVR-MEX AM
YVR-DFW AC

Some rumoured routes for 2017:

YVR-HKG HX
YVR-IST TK
YVR-FRA AC
YVR-MAN AC


AM service YVR-MEX started in 2015 (early December if memory correct). AM recently announced that service is increasing from daily to 10 x week on December 1, 2016, in conjunction with Canada removing the current visa requirement for Mexican visitors on the same date.
 
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RL777
Posts: 648
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2016 1:43 am

Re: YVR Thread

Sat Oct 08, 2016 7:48 pm

raylee67 wrote:
Would not be surprised to see HX flying HKG-YVR. That's pretty much the only North American route its current fleet can fly to (using A332) without weight penalties both direction all year-round. And it's strong with connecting traffic to secondary cities in China, so YVR would be a no-brainer.

Of other possibilities, I think it would be quite possible that other secondary Chinese carriers will make entry into YVR. Since their hub operations are not very well-defined, they may fly from any secondary cities from China. I guess primary targets would be Nanjing, Hangzhou, Qingdao, Tianjin or even some inland cities such as Wuhan, Chengdu or Chongqing. It could be Tianjin Airlines, Capital Airlines, Hainan Airlines or Shenzhen Airlines, etc.

Would Bangalore be a possibility? There should be a lot of business (aka tech) traffic between Bangalore and North America. Vancouver would be an ideal connecting point for that. May be it can handle four or five weekly 788?

And then for VFR traffic to India, Amritsar would be a destinations with a lot of traffic too. Whether anyone can make that profitable is another question. I suppose it would be low yielding and highly seasonal.

If CX is successful in the new 3 weekly A359 flight to YVR, I wonder if it will make that flight daily, making YVR 3 daily, with 2x77W + 1x359, or downgauging one of the 77W flight to 359 to make it 1x77W + 2x359. After all, more 359s are coming online and CX's business model is to provide more frequencies.

Lastly, would AC be able to fly YVR-DXB 3/weekly with the current bilaterals with UAE? It permits UAE carriers to fly 6 weekly to Canada, in which EK and EY each is utilizing 3/weekly. I think AC is only doing 3/weekly on YYZ-DXB? That would mean AC can either increase frequency on YYZ-DXB, or it can run a monopoly route from DXB to another Canadian city with 3/weekly? During oil boom-time, I would expect that will go YYC-DXB, but now I think if AC is even thinking about adding another Canadian destination for DXB, that will be YVR-DXB.


There's a good possibility that HX could enter the HKG-YVR market as soon as next year, some have said they are holding out until they get their A350s delivered. I'm not sure if we will see any other mainland Chinese carriers at YVR for a little bit, that market just had its growth with Xiamen & Beijing Capitol beginning services.

I think there's a possibility that CX855/856 could become daily but I wouldn't expect that to happen until 2018 if it does indeed go through.
 
raylee67
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Joined: Mon Oct 24, 2011 11:06 pm

Re: YVR Thread

Sat Oct 08, 2016 8:09 pm

NichCage wrote:

I have some thoughts about what you said about a YVR-BLR flight. First of all, while India is generally unserved from YVR at this point until Air Canada launches YVR-DEL, Vancouver does not have a tech industry. I may be wrong, but YVR-BLR would never be launched.

If Bangalore is ever opened, it would almost purely to serve connection traffic. I am just saying the Vancouver would be in a good geographic location to capture Bangalore-North America tech traffic connecting via YVR.

For example, to travel from San Francisco to Bangalore, the most direct connections now would be via Singapore (SQ), Hong Kong (CX/KA) or Emirates (EK). The great circle distance via Dubai is 15700km, via Hong Kong is 15100km and via Singapore is 16700km. If you can fly SFO-YVR-BLR, the distance is cut down to 14000km. Of course, the actual time required for the trip would still be dependent on waiting time for the connection, etc. But this sounds like a competitive advantage right of the bet.
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AA DL UA NW AC CP WS FL NK PD
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ankaraflyjet
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Re: YVR Thread

Sat Oct 08, 2016 10:19 pm

AC flights between YYZ and IST is doing very well actually and I do not think that AC will terminate IST. I use these flights very often and loads are always high, in fact other than once (July this year due to political unrest in Turkey) I have never seen a flight other than full board on all three cabins (used to be two class before May 16 when the route was operated by 767).

Turkey has now a seat in the Board of ICAO and the Turkish Minister delivered a Press Release last week in Montreal at the opening ceremony of TK's DT office in Montreal that they revised their application to Canadian CAA to increase IST YYZ and IST YUL daily and start 3 weekly IST YVR. With the opening of the worlds largest Airport in IST not so faraway it will eventually happen, moreover we will see more destinations (probably IST YYC) to add on after a couple of years IST YVR is introduced or may be a triangle route like IST-YYC-YVR-IST may be possible too..

I am quite positive that IST YVR will happen in 2017...


Thenoflyzone wrote:
NichCage wrote:

Even though Turkish Airlines is cutting a lot of flights, long haul growth is now there focus. I am sure in the future Turkish Airlines will recover at some point, but they have annouced intentions to fly to YVR. Hopefully they get the permission this time to fly IST-YVR.


TK are maxed out on their frequency allocation to Canada. Right now, they are 6x weekly to YYZ and 3x weekly to YUL and cannot increase. The bilateral will need to be tweaked in order to add new flights.

I doubt that will happen anytime soon. Also, i'm amazed AC is still flying to IST. I wouldn't be surprised if they call it quits on the route in the coming months.
 
NichCage
Posts: 916
Joined: Wed Jun 22, 2016 6:43 pm

Re: YVR Thread

Sun Oct 09, 2016 2:39 am

ankaraflyjet wrote:
AC flights between YYZ and IST is doing very well actually and I do not think that AC will terminate IST. I use these flights very often and loads are always high, in fact other than once (July this year due to political unrest in Turkey) I have never seen a flight other than full board on all three cabins (used to be two class before May 16 when the route was operated by 767).

Turkey has now a seat in the Board of ICAO and the Turkish Minister delivered a Press Release last week in Montreal at the opening ceremony of TK's DT office in Montreal that they revised their application to Canadian CAA to increase IST YYZ and IST YUL daily and start 3 weekly IST YVR. With the opening of the worlds largest Airport in IST not so faraway it will eventually happen, moreover we will see more destinations (probably IST YYC) to add on after a couple of years IST YVR is introduced or may be a triangle route like IST-YYC-YVR-IST may be possible too..

I am quite positive that IST YVR will happen in 2017...


Thenoflyzone wrote:
NichCage wrote:

Even though Turkish Airlines is cutting a lot of flights, long haul growth is now there focus. I am sure in the future Turkish Airlines will recover at some point, but they have annouced intentions to fly to YVR. Hopefully they get the permission this time to fly IST-YVR.


TK are maxed out on their frequency allocation to Canada. Right now, they are 6x weekly to YYZ and 3x weekly to YUL and cannot increase. The bilateral will need to be tweaked in order to add new flights.

I doubt that will happen anytime soon. Also, i'm amazed AC is still flying to IST. I wouldn't be surprised if they call it quits on the route in the coming months.


Other than YUL, YYZ, and YVR, I think that Turkish Airlines will be fine with three destinations. I don't see the government giving rights to a fourth city, which is Calgary. I don't think Turkish Airlines would every fly to Calgary, but is there a market for Turkish Airlines and the ME3 there?
 
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DolphinAir747
Posts: 1884
Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2012 10:07 pm

Re: YVR Thread

Sun Oct 09, 2016 3:39 am

ankaraflyjet wrote:
AC flights between YYZ and IST is doing very well actually and I do not think that AC will terminate IST. I use these flights very often and loads are always high, in fact other than once (July this year due to political unrest in Turkey) I have never seen a flight other than full board on all three cabins (used to be two class before May 16 when the route was operated by 767).

Turkey has now a seat in the Board of ICAO and the Turkish Minister delivered a Press Release last week in Montreal at the opening ceremony of TK's DT office in Montreal that they revised their application to Canadian CAA to increase IST YYZ and IST YUL daily and start 3 weekly IST YVR. With the opening of the worlds largest Airport in IST not so faraway it will eventually happen, moreover we will see more destinations (probably IST YYC) to add on after a couple of years IST YVR is introduced or may be a triangle route like IST-YYC-YVR-IST may be possible too..

I am quite positive that IST YVR will happen in 2017...


Thenoflyzone wrote:
NichCage wrote:

Even though Turkish Airlines is cutting a lot of flights, long haul growth is now there focus. I am sure in the future Turkish Airlines will recover at some point, but they have annouced intentions to fly to YVR. Hopefully they get the permission this time to fly IST-YVR.


TK are maxed out on their frequency allocation to Canada. Right now, they are 6x weekly to YYZ and 3x weekly to YUL and cannot increase. The bilateral will need to be tweaked in order to add new flights.

I doubt that will happen anytime soon. Also, i'm amazed AC is still flying to IST. I wouldn't be surprised if they call it quits on the route in the coming months.

AC's fares to IST are complete trash. If they'll have such low yields might as well have RV handle it.

I would love to see CX add a tag-on YVR-MIA sinxe MIA is an important business market from HKG, or Swire Group especially.
 
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tacobell101
Posts: 112
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Re: YVR Thread

Sun Oct 09, 2016 7:51 am

DolphinAir747 wrote:
ankaraflyjet wrote:
AC flights between YYZ and IST is doing very well actually and I do not think that AC will terminate IST. I use these flights very often and loads are always high, in fact other than once (July this year due to political unrest in Turkey) I have never seen a flight other than full board on all three cabins (used to be two class before May 16 when the route was operated by 767).

Turkey has now a seat in the Board of ICAO and the Turkish Minister delivered a Press Release last week in Montreal at the opening ceremony of TK's DT office in Montreal that they revised their application to Canadian CAA to increase IST YYZ and IST YUL daily and start 3 weekly IST YVR. With the opening of the worlds largest Airport in IST not so faraway it will eventually happen, moreover we will see more destinations (probably IST YYC) to add on after a couple of years IST YVR is introduced or may be a triangle route like IST-YYC-YVR-IST may be possible too..

I am quite positive that IST YVR will happen in 2017...


Thenoflyzone wrote:

TK are maxed out on their frequency allocation to Canada. Right now, they are 6x weekly to YYZ and 3x weekly to YUL and cannot increase. The bilateral will need to be tweaked in order to add new flights.

I doubt that will happen anytime soon. Also, i'm amazed AC is still flying to IST. I wouldn't be surprised if they call it quits on the route in the coming months.

AC's fares to IST are complete trash. If they'll have such low yields might as well have RV handle it.

I would love to see CX add a tag-on YVR-MIA sinxe MIA is an important business market from HKG, or Swire Group especially.


I don't think they will do that in the next few years. It all depends on how the new A350 service goes. If it goes daily AND there is a high demand, they might consider it once they receive their first -1000.

Another note, If Xiamen-YVR works I'm sure the carrier could go daily once they receive their 787-9's
 
sixtyseven
Posts: 807
Joined: Thu Nov 16, 2006 9:42 am

Re: YVR Thread

Sun Oct 09, 2016 11:49 am

Thenoflyzone wrote:
NichCage wrote:

Even though Turkish Airlines is cutting a lot of flights, long haul growth is now there focus. I am sure in the future Turkish Airlines will recover at some point, but they have annouced intentions to fly to YVR. Hopefully they get the permission this time to fly IST-YVR.


TK are maxed out on their frequency allocation to Canada. Right now, they are 6x weekly to YYZ and 3x weekly to YUL and cannot increase. The bilateral will need to be tweaked in order to add new flights.

I doubt that will happen anytime soon. Also, i'm amazed AC is still flying to IST. I wouldn't be surprised if they call it quits on the route in the coming months.


What is your thinking re:IST?? If it's because other airlines have recently dumped it id have to disagree. If there's a business case they'll keep it going IMO.
Stand-by for new ATIS message......
 
Whiteguy
Posts: 1343
Joined: Sat Nov 29, 2003 6:11 am

Re: YVR Thread

Sun Oct 09, 2016 2:31 pm

raylee67 wrote:
Lastly, would AC be able to fly YVR-DXB 3/weekly with the current bilaterals with UAE? It permits UAE carriers to fly 6 weekly to Canada, in which EK and EY each is utilizing 3/weekly. I think AC is only doing 3/weekly on YYZ-DXB? That would mean AC can either increase frequency on YYZ-DXB, or it can run a monopoly route from DXB to another Canadian city with 3/weekly? During oil boom-time, I would expect that will go YYC-DXB, but now I think if AC is even thinking about adding another Canadian destination for DXB, that will be YVR-DXB.


AC cannot add anymore flights between Canada and UAE. The bilateral agreement is 6 flights per week but one airline can only max 3 flights per week. That's why EK & EY operate 3 each....
 
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longhauler
Posts: 6249
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Re: YVR Thread

Sun Oct 09, 2016 4:05 pm

Whiteguy wrote:
AC cannot add anymore flights between Canada and UAE. The bilateral agreement is 6 flights per week but one airline can only max 3 flights per week. That's why EK & EY operate 3 each....

Technically that is true, but that is not why EY and EK operate only 3 flights per week. The Canada/UAE bilateral air agreement allows up to 6 frequencies per week for each country. More than 3 on one airline requries approval on both sides.

When EK applied for approval, they were given 6 flights per week, per the agreement. They demanded daily, and were denied, per the agreement. Pouting, they then said they would not fly to Canada if they couldn't have daily.

EY then stepped up, requested and were approved for 3 flights per week. These flights were successful. Fearing that EY would get the 3 remaining frequencies, EK grabbed them. Had EK accepted the offer of 6/wk from the start, then that is what they would be flying today.

The bilateral air agreement allows for seasonal or permanent increase of frequencies if proof of demand for O&D traffic can be made. To date, that has not been the case.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
keitherson
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Re: YVR Thread

Sun Oct 09, 2016 4:39 pm

ankaraflyjet wrote:
AC flights between YYZ and IST is doing very well actually and I do not think that AC will terminate IST. I use these flights very often and loads are always high, in fact other than once (July this year due to political unrest in Turkey) I have never seen a flight other than full board on all three cabins (used to be two class before May 16 when the route was operated by 767).

Turkey has now a seat in the Board of ICAO and the Turkish Minister delivered a Press Release last week in Montreal at the opening ceremony of TK's DT office in Montreal that they revised their application to Canadian CAA to increase IST YYZ and IST YUL daily and start 3 weekly IST YVR. With the opening of the worlds largest Airport in IST not so faraway it will eventually happen, moreover we will see more destinations (probably IST YYC) to add on after a couple of years IST YVR is introduced or may be a triangle route like IST-YYC-YVR-IST may be possible too..

I am quite positive that IST YVR will happen in 2017...


Thenoflyzone wrote:
NichCage wrote:

Even though Turkish Airlines is cutting a lot of flights, long haul growth is now there focus. I am sure in the future Turkish Airlines will recover at some point, but they have annouced intentions to fly to YVR. Hopefully they get the permission this time to fly IST-YVR.


TK are maxed out on their frequency allocation to Canada. Right now, they are 6x weekly to YYZ and 3x weekly to YUL and cannot increase. The bilateral will need to be tweaked in order to add new flights.

I doubt that will happen anytime soon. Also, i'm amazed AC is still flying to IST. I wouldn't be surprised if they call it quits on the route in the coming months.


"ankaraflyjet" the chances of more service being launched to Turkey when the entire Pegasus fleet is up for lease and airplane orders are being delayed by Turkish are as big as nonstop North American service to the city in your name
 
Whiteguy
Posts: 1343
Joined: Sat Nov 29, 2003 6:11 am

Re: YVR Thread

Sun Oct 09, 2016 6:59 pm

longhauler wrote:
Whiteguy wrote:
AC cannot add anymore flights between Canada and UAE. The bilateral agreement is 6 flights per week but one airline can only max 3 flights per week. That's why EK & EY operate 3 each....

Technically that is true, but that is not why EY and EK operate only 3 flights per week. The Canada/UAE bilateral air agreement allows up to 6 frequencies per week for each country. More than 3 on one airline requries approval on both sides.

When EK applied for approval, they were given 6 flights per week, per the agreement. They demanded daily, and were denied, per the agreement. Pouting, they then said they would not fly to Canada if they couldn't have daily.

EY then stepped up, requested and were approved for 3 flights per week. These flights were successful. Fearing that EY would get the 3 remaining frequencies, EK grabbed them. Had EK accepted the offer of 6/wk from the start, then that is what they would be flying today.

The bilateral air agreement allows for seasonal or permanent increase of frequencies if proof of demand for O&D traffic can be made. To date, that has not been the case.


It's funny, I had alway said the same story about EK and told I was wrong.....

Read the agreement myself and came to the above conclusion reading it....
 
upwardfacing
Posts: 423
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Re: YVR Thread

Sun Oct 09, 2016 8:32 pm

It's better to leave interpretation of bilateral civil aviation agreements to international lawyers who specialise in the subject matter.
 
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longhauler
Posts: 6249
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 12:00 am

Re: YVR Thread

Mon Oct 10, 2016 2:13 am

Whiteguy wrote:
It's funny, I had alway said the same story about EK and told I was wrong.....
Read the agreement myself and came to the above conclusion reading it....


Yes, I am sure the UAE itself and EK fans would like to pretend it didn't happen. It certainly wasn't their shining moment.

But ... I was there and watched it unfold in amazement. I remember the byline in the business section of the newspaper, "If we can't have daily, we won't come to Canada at all".

You are right though. Canada's bilateral air agreements are in the public domain and are very easily understood.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
ElPistolero
Posts: 1662
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:44 am

Re: YVR Thread

Mon Oct 10, 2016 3:53 am

longhauler wrote:
Whiteguy wrote:
It's funny, I had alway said the same story about EK and told I was wrong.....
Read the agreement myself and came to the above conclusion reading it....


Yes, I am sure the UAE itself and EK fans would like to pretend it didn't happen. It certainly wasn't their shining moment.

But ... I was there and watched it unfold in amazement. I remember the byline in the business section of the newspaper, "If we can't have daily, we won't come to Canada at all".

You are right though. Canada's bilateral air agreements are in the public domain and are very easily understood.


Presumably you have the article in hand? If it happened - and was reported in a newspaper, a citation would help.

Also, which year did Canada offer 6 weekly frequencies in?

We know what the bilateral says. We know that the less-than-weekly frequency is Canadian policy - a former transport minister criticized that policy in a government-sponsored review. We also know that at least one 'informed' poster here - who was allegedly present in apparently classified negotiations - claimed that there was no such policy and that other countries were asking Canada to impose the frequency limit (contradicted by former Minister Emerson, no less). I say apparently classified because there's a report (the BC Govt report IIRC), that bemoans the fact that these negotiations are classified. Now you're saying it was reported in a newspaper. Alright - let's see it. At the very least we will get some clarity.

It's weird how the 6 weekly claim changed (even disappeared) when the text of the bilateral was introduced here a couple of years ago. Then the claims disappeared. Now they're back with a claim that EK was offered - and declined - the frequencies publicly. Perhaps I m dense, but it's all a bit odd. Fortunately, your newspaper article can address it all. Can't speak for others, but as someone who's watched this issue for a while, I look forward to reading it.
 
Topguncanada
Posts: 59
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2016 6:44 am

Re: YVR Thread

Mon Oct 10, 2016 4:26 am

 
User avatar
ankaraflyjet
Posts: 448
Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2007 5:34 pm

Re: YVR Thread

Mon Oct 10, 2016 6:57 am

We are not talking about Ankara ("ESB") North America market here. Pegasus and TK's short haul a/c orders are also not a part of the topic. TK did not delay delivery of any long haul a/c nor they stopped expanding the long haul network particularly in North America.

YVR IST will likely happen in 2017 and if not will be delayed to 2018..The reasons why Turkish aviation slowed down a bit is obvious but it is still one of the fastest growing markets in the world. There is no market with continuous positive growth, it is natural to see fluctuations just like in any other country/region.

The direct flights between Canada and Turkey is less than 10 years old and is making good business and with increasing number of trade, travel etc. between Canada and Turkey all reasons are there for the market to grow more.

In spite of the recent political turmoil in Turkey TK is the only European Airline that can compete with ME3 and TK being a Star Alliance member creates synergy between AC and TK.



keitherson wrote:
ankaraflyjet wrote:
AC flights between YYZ and IST is doing very well actually and I do not think that AC will terminate IST. I use these flights very often and loads are always high, in fact other than once (July this year due to political unrest in Turkey) I have never seen a flight other than full board on all three cabins (used to be two class before May 16 when the route was operated by 767).

Turkey has now a seat in the Board of ICAO and the Turkish Minister delivered a Press Release last week in Montreal at the opening ceremony of TK's DT office in Montreal that they revised their application to Canadian CAA to increase IST YYZ and IST YUL daily and start 3 weekly IST YVR. With the opening of the worlds largest Airport in IST not so faraway it will eventually happen, moreover we will see more destinations (probably IST YYC) to add on after a couple of years IST YVR is introduced or may be a triangle route like IST-YYC-YVR-IST may be possible too..

I am quite positive that IST YVR will happen in 2017...


Thenoflyzone wrote:

TK are maxed out on their frequency allocation to Canada. Right now, they are 6x weekly to YYZ and 3x weekly to YUL and cannot increase. The bilateral will need to be tweaked in order to add new flights.

I doubt that will happen anytime soon. Also, i'm amazed AC is still flying to IST. I wouldn't be surprised if they call it quits on the route in the coming months.


"ankaraflyjet" the chances of more service being launched to Turkey when the entire Pegasus fleet is up for lease and airplane orders are being delayed by Turkish are as big as nonstop North American service to the city in your name
 
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VCEflyboy
Posts: 1237
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Re: YVR Thread

Mon Oct 10, 2016 1:02 pm

Another new route that came up this year was YVR FCO by air transit albeit only one-weekly and seasonal but apparently is coming back next summer.
Unfortunately TK has seen better days and is in the middle of a cutting spree so I doubt they will fly to YVR any time soon.
Too bad it's not all good news. Alaska has cut flights from YVR and I believe it only operates one daily flight at the moment, which is quite shocking for us in YVR as Alaska has probably the most popular FF program in town after AC and I assume WestJet.
 
iFlyDTW
Posts: 250
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Re: YVR Thread

Mon Oct 10, 2016 1:22 pm

A route that I think needs evaluation is YVR-DTW, DL runs this flight on Saturday's only for like 3 months of the summer, judging the O&D on both sides should warrant a daily nonstop at leased.
Home of the "Bare Fare" /// Banana Plane Republic
 
LIRF
Posts: 20
Joined: Fri Sep 23, 2016 7:45 pm

Re: YVR Thread

Mon Oct 10, 2016 6:56 pm

VCEflyboy wrote:
Another new route that came up this year was YVR FCO by air transit albeit only one-weekly and seasonal but apparently is coming back next summer.
.

No, according to GDS Air Transat is not resuming that route next year.
 
Viscount724
Posts: 19316
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

Re: YVR Thread

Mon Oct 10, 2016 9:09 pm

LIRF wrote:
VCEflyboy wrote:
Another new route that came up this year was YVR FCO by air transit albeit only one-weekly and seasonal but apparently is coming back next summer.
.

No, according to GDS Air Transat is not resuming that route next year.


Highly doubt TS has finalized summer 2017 operations this far in advance.
 
keitherson
Posts: 240
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2014 3:00 pm

Re: YVR Thread

Mon Oct 10, 2016 9:15 pm

VCEflyboy wrote:
Another new route that came up this year was YVR FCO by air transit albeit only one-weekly and seasonal but apparently is coming back next summer.
Unfortunately TK has seen better days and is in the middle of a cutting spree so I doubt they will fly to YVR any time soon.
Too bad it's not all good news. Alaska has cut flights from YVR and I believe it only operates one daily flight at the moment, which is quite shocking for us in YVR as Alaska has probably the most popular FF program in town after AC and I assume WestJet.

Yup. And the idea of running a Boeing 737 for a short YVR-SEA sector makes my head spin.

If the merger goes through I hope they will expand YVR-SFO and bring back YVR-LAX, whether Virgin-operated or not.
 
ElPistolero
Posts: 1662
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:44 am

Re: YVR Thread

Tue Oct 11, 2016 1:38 am

Whiteguy wrote:
longhauler wrote:
Whiteguy wrote:
AC cannot add anymore flights between Canada and UAE. The bilateral agreement is 6 flights per week but one airline can only max 3 flights per week. That's why EK & EY operate 3 each....

Technically that is true, but that is not why EY and EK operate only 3 flights per week. The Canada/UAE bilateral air agreement allows up to 6 frequencies per week for each country. More than 3 on one airline requries approval on both sides.

When EK applied for approval, they were given 6 flights per week, per the agreement. They demanded daily, and were denied, per the agreement. Pouting, they then said they would not fly to Canada if they couldn't have daily.

EY then stepped up, requested and were approved for 3 flights per week. These flights were successful. Fearing that EY would get the 3 remaining frequencies, EK grabbed them. Had EK accepted the offer of 6/wk from the start, then that is what they would be flying today.

The bilateral air agreement allows for seasonal or permanent increase of frequencies if proof of demand for O&D traffic can be made. To date, that has not been the case.


It's funny, I had alway said the same story about EK and told I was wrong.....

Read the agreement myself and came to the above conclusion reading it....


I looked into this claim today and haven't found anything to back it up. As of now, longhauler has failed to provide any source.

I'm not convinced it exists. Consider the circumstances.

- 1999: Initial agreement
- 1999: Canada identifies AC as a designated carrier
- 2001: Agreement signed
- 2003: 6th frequency allowed
- 2004: UAE identifues EY as a designated carrier
- 2005: EY begins flights
- 2007: UAE adds EK as a designated airline

It's not really clear how or why an airline that was not even recognized by the Government of Canada before 2007, could publicly turn down 6 frequencies before EY began operating on the route in 2005.

It's also not clear why the 6 weekly offer wasn't extended to EY when it became the sole UAE designated under the agreement from 2004-2007 (when EK was added).

I'll cut myself off there because we're veering into 'teapot in space' territory. The onus is on longhauler to substantiate his claim, and not on anyone else to determine its veracity. Should be fun to see what he comes up with.

What I will point out though, is that TK started flying to Canada in 2009. In 7 years, it its managed to get 9 frequencies. At this rate, it should be in a position to serve YVR 3 weekly by 2022 (assuming that they choose to go daily on YYZ and YUL before opening a new station). We'll probably see another Govt of BC report complaining about aviation policy before then.
 
log0008
Posts: 468
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2016 12:17 pm

Re: YVR Thread

Tue Oct 11, 2016 1:54 am

Not sure which of these have been reported but China's CAAC has approved the following:

China Eastern: Nanjing-Vancouver
China Southern Airlines: Guangzhou - Vancouver - Mexico City
 
CPA62
Topic Author
Posts: 125
Joined: Fri Jan 27, 2012 6:13 am

Re: YVR Thread

Tue Oct 11, 2016 4:42 am

iFlyDTW wrote:
A route that I think needs evaluation is YVR-DTW, DL runs this flight on Saturday's only for like 3 months of the summer, judging the O&D on both sides should warrant a daily nonstop at leased.


can not see this happening, same for ATL.. Also I see Delta as very Seattlecentric and would prefer to shuttle passengers to Seattle, using YVR as a feed to domestic & international network via SEA.
I would probably stretch to say Air Canada sudden interest in developing more international flights from Vancouver is in response to Delta doing the same in Seattle??? Wonder if Air Canada is planning to operate into smaller west coast cities from Vancouver such as Spokane, Salt Lake City, Yakima, Eugene, Boise etc to feed Asian flights?
 
LIRF
Posts: 20
Joined: Fri Sep 23, 2016 7:45 pm

Re: YVR Thread

Tue Oct 11, 2016 6:32 pm

Viscount724 wrote:
LIRF wrote:
VCEflyboy wrote:
Another new route that came up this year was YVR FCO by air transit albeit only one-weekly and seasonal but apparently is coming back next summer.
.

No, according to GDS Air Transat is not resuming that route next year.


Highly doubt TS has finalized summer 2017 operations this far in advance.

Well Vancouver-Rome flight was bookable till 1 week ago, now you can't find it anymore.
 
robsaw
Posts: 415
Joined: Sun Dec 28, 2008 7:14 am

Re: YVR Thread

Tue Oct 11, 2016 6:51 pm

NichCage wrote:
I have some thoughts about what you said about a YVR-BLR flight. First of all, while India is generally unserved from YVR at this point until Air Canada launches YVR-DEL, Vancouver does not have a tech industry. I may be wrong, but YVR-BLR would never be launched.


While YVR may not be a huge "tech industry" market, it certainly has more than nil high tech business. I work for one of the biggest in Canada and it is headquartered in the YVR area.

http://www.vancouvereconomic.com/focus/technology/
 
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RL777
Posts: 648
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2016 1:43 am

Re: YVR Thread

Wed Oct 12, 2016 4:02 am

KLM will be using the 787-9 to YVR beginning in September of 2017.
 
keitherson
Posts: 240
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2014 3:00 pm

Re: YVR Thread

Wed Oct 12, 2016 4:30 am

RL777 wrote:
KLM will be using the 787-9 to YVR beginning in September of 2017.

Guess I'll be saving my Global Upgrades for this! :D

I had booked a flight connecting through YEG just for the 787.
 
keitherson
Posts: 240
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2014 3:00 pm

Re: YVR Thread

Wed Oct 12, 2016 4:38 am

Vancouver (YVR) – Zhengzhou (CGO)
Sichuan 8502

What the hell is Zhengzhou?? Why does this route exist?
 
Viscount724
Posts: 19316
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

Re: YVR Thread

Thu Oct 13, 2016 2:23 am

keitherson wrote:
Vancouver (YVR) – Zhengzhou (CGO)
Sichuan 8502

What the hell is Zhengzhou?? Why does this route exist?


Zhengzhou is the capital of Henan province and has a metro area population of almost 10 million, much larger than any city in Canada..
 
User avatar
VCEflyboy
Posts: 1237
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Re: YVR Thread

Thu Oct 13, 2016 3:19 am

Anyone been to YVR 2037 event today? Anything exciting?
 
qblue
Posts: 139
Joined: Thu Jul 01, 2004 3:47 am

Re: YVR Thread

Thu Oct 13, 2016 5:54 am

Just saw Sultan of Brunei's new 747-8 on the west pad. Is he in town or wives just in for shipping.
 
keitherson
Posts: 240
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2014 3:00 pm

Re: YVR Thread

Thu Oct 13, 2016 6:32 am

Viscount724 wrote:
keitherson wrote:
Vancouver (YVR) – Zhengzhou (CGO)
Sichuan 8502

What the hell is Zhengzhou?? Why does this route exist?


Zhengzhou is the capital of Henan province and has a metro area population of almost 10 million, much larger than any city in Canada..

So does Ahmedabad but that doesn't make these places any more viable for an air link. Nor does it make these places even remotely close to a world city or recognition outside their own country.

Geneva has less than 200,000 people. By your airliners.net logic, its only air service should be to the train station.
 
nname
Posts: 28
Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2016 6:53 pm

Re: YVR Thread

Thu Oct 13, 2016 9:55 pm

CPA62 wrote:
YVR seem to be having a good year. year to August 31 passenger numbers up 10.1% overall with European passengers numbers up 15% and Asia Pacific up 13.9% and Mexico south America up 25%

some new routes started and announced in 2016:
YVR-BNE AC
YVR-NGO AC
YVR-TPE AC
YVR-DEL AC
YVR-XMN MF
YVR-MEX AM
YVR-DFW AC

Some rumoured routes for 2017:

YVR-HKG HX
YVR-IST TK
YVR-FRA AC
YVR-MAN AC


Missed a few from China:

Announced:
YVR-TAO-HGH JD
YVR-CGO-CTU 3U

Rumoured for 2017:
YVR-NKG-KMG MU
MEX-YVR-CAN CZ
YVR-TSN-CKG GS
YVR-TSN HU

^ at most only one of the TSN route will commence; most route will require reduced frequency of existing China-Canada service due to bilateral restriction.
 
NichCage
Posts: 916
Joined: Wed Jun 22, 2016 6:43 pm

Re: YVR Thread

Fri Oct 14, 2016 7:30 pm

nname wrote:
CPA62 wrote:
YVR seem to be having a good year. year to August 31 passenger numbers up 10.1% overall with European passengers numbers up 15% and Asia Pacific up 13.9% and Mexico south America up 25%

some new routes started and announced in 2016:
YVR-BNE AC
YVR-NGO AC
YVR-TPE AC
YVR-DEL AC
YVR-XMN MF
YVR-MEX AM
YVR-DFW AC

Some rumoured routes for 2017:

YVR-HKG HX
YVR-IST TK
YVR-FRA AC
YVR-MAN AC


Missed a few from China:

Announced:
YVR-TAO-HGH JD
YVR-CGO-CTU 3U

Rumoured for 2017:
YVR-NKG-KMG MU
MEX-YVR-CAN CZ
YVR-TSN-CKG GS
YVR-TSN HU

^ at most only one of the TSN route will commence; most route will require reduced frequency of existing China-Canada service due to bilateral restriction.


Can someone explain to me why China Southern Airlines wants to fly to Mexico City? I would assume the demand between China and Mexico is not too big, and that there is absolutely no market between CAN and MEX.
 
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VCEflyboy
Posts: 1237
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Re: YVR Thread

Sat Oct 15, 2016 1:58 am

Passenger traffic may be small but it could be a cargo-heavy route. After all the bulk of China's manufacturing is around CAN.
If that turns out to be profitable remains to be seen.

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