Hey guys, I'm hoping you can just provide some basic insight to the operations of these two 737 types. This has some personal interest for me as I am going in a short period of time & now our flight is a scheduled 737-900 vs the 737-800 we booked & I'm glad, I have not flown the 900ER.

So when AQ pioneered using 737's to & from the mainland they used the 73G or 737-700. The SP model of the 737 line. longer range nearly 3,000 nm model. With ETOPS requirements AQ did well with the bird, although the low passenger count was what made it a low profit operation for AQ.

Then it seemed airlines like AS were flying their 737-800 aircraft over to paradise & this mix of aircraft passenger capacity & distance ability was an almost perfect fit for the secondary Island market to the mainland. Now a few carriers use the 737-800 from the West Coast & now the 737-900ER is operating flights to HNL & KOA, I understand the LIH & OGG runways are a bit short for the long roll of a loaded 737-900.

The 800 has a nm range of 2900 approx & as most of the West Coast is well in range of the 800, it's a perfect fit. Now I am getting to enjoy my first 737-900ER flight in less than a month. I started wondering how often does AS send their 900ER fleet to Hawaii? And what other carriers send their 900's to the Islands? with a range just over 2700nm, how close to maxed out is the 737-900ER flying a PDX-HNL flight?

Taking into account extra fuel & ETOPS requirements & full passenger loads, do they block seats for these flights or can they operate full of bags & passengers in November?

UA and DL send 739's to HNL and KOA. UA sends a mix of 757-2/3 and 738s to LIH and OGG. DL sends the 752 to LIH and OGG. AA sends the 321 to all islands.

I have been on several UA flights from SFO to KOA. That is about the same distance as PDX. The late afternoon flight is usually a 737-900ER. And I just checked this December and they are still using that plane. I have never seen seats blocked off on my flights but I have heard of UA removing some passengers from a flight in LA if the headwinds are unusually strong. It has never happened to me. On occasion I have seen UA substitute A 737-800 on the flight. But I thought that was due to the inbound 737-900 having problems. So I don't imagine there is usually an issue with range. As far as AQ, I thought they blocked out quite a few seats when the left places like SNA with its 5000' runway.

RWA380 wrote:

Hey guys, I'm hoping you can just provide some basic insight to the operations of these two 737 types. This has some personal interest for me as I am going in a short period of time & now our flight is a scheduled 737-900 vs the 737-800 we booked & I'm glad, I have not flown the 900ER.

So when AQ pioneered using 737's to & from the mainland they used the 73G or 737-700. The SP model of the 737 line. longer range nearly 3,000 nm model. With ETOPS requirements AQ did well with the bird, although the low passenger count was what made it a low profit operation for AQ.

Then it seemed airlines like AS were flying their 737-800 aircraft over to paradise & this mix of aircraft passenger capacity & distance ability was an almost perfect fit for the secondary Island market to the mainland. Now a few carriers use the 737-800 from the West Coast & now the 737-900ER is operating flights to HNL & KOA, I understand the LIH & OGG runways are a bit short for the long roll of a loaded 737-900.

The 800 has a nm range of 2900 approx & as most of the West Coast is well in range of the 800, it's a perfect fit. Now I am getting to enjoy my first 737-900ER flight in less than a month. I started wondering how often does AS send their 900ER fleet to Hawaii? And what other carriers send their 900's to the Islands? with a range just over 2700nm, how close to maxed out is the 737-900ER flying a PDX-HNL flight?

Taking into account extra fuel & ETOPS requirements & full passenger loads, do they block seats for these flights or can they operate full of bags & passengers in November?

AS sends 900's everyday to HNL & KOA. The fuel critical missions are SEA/BLI-Hawaii & at times PDX-Hawaii and HawaIi-ANC in the winter. AS usually stops routing 900's to Hawaii out of the PNW sometime in the fall. AS does not block seats for weight ahead of time for weight...even in the 900er.

First, to be clear, the islands are WELL within the range of any 737-700/800/900er... occassionally...especially in the winter...the 2 engine depressurization scenario becomes a problem. An ETOPS flight must be planned such that at the mid-point (time-wise) of the flight, the airplane must be able to perform an emergency descent to 10,000 feet and then fly to an ETOPS alternate...hold over the field for 15 minutes...shoot an instrument approach and land.

Ironically, these rules were setup so that in theory, you had an equivalent level of safety between a two engine jet and a 3+ engine jet. The scenario that has proven to be the critical one is the one that does not involve an engine failure, and the one that I would bet money that no DC-8 or 707 could ever pull off.

Usually it is enough to plan the flight to cut down south toward California. This has the duel benefits of getting out of the winter jet and taking advantage of the California bulge that sticks out toward Hawaii which helps the contingency numbers a lot. If that isn't enough then flights are planned to Maui (the closest island to the west coast coming from California) and then re-released to HNL or KOA after the crossing. If that still isn't enough, then the flight can be slowed down toward LR Cruise...and then if all else fails...a flag stop in OAK or SJC.

Flagstops are exceedingly rare, I don't think AS has had any since "APU on-demand" was started.

77H wrote:

UA and DL send 739's to HNL and KOA. UA sends a mix of 757-2/3 and 738s to LIH and OGG. DL sends the 752 to LIH and OGG. AA sends the 321 to all islands.

AA still flies the 752 out of PHX to LIH, OGG and HNL as well.

Have -900s ever been scheduled to OGG? I've only flown the 800s out of OGG and LIH and both were quite forceful takeoffs with higher flap settings than I typically notice. I wonder how much difference there is performance wise between a 738 and 739 from a runway like OGG.

Flight times are usually a bit less east-bound- are the planes usually filled close to max fuel capacity?

Don't forget that ATA flew many 737-800's between OAK and Hawaii. UA and DL have been flying 737's to/from Hawaii...even from SNA for a while. Lastly, who could forget FJ's 737-800's between YVR-HNL-NAN?

flyboy80 wrote:

Have -900s ever been scheduled to OGG? I've only flown the 800s out of OGG and LIH and both were quite forceful takeoffs with higher flap settings than I typically notice. I wonder how much difference there is performance wise between a 738 and 739 from a runway like OGG.

Flight times are usually a bit less east-bound- are the planes usually filled close to max fuel capacity?

I don't believe the 900ER has been scheduled into OGG or LIH by AS or UA. I find it interesting that UA can fly a 777-200 nonstop to ORD from OGG's short runway but the 900ER cannot.

And many years ago, I recall flying on DC10s to OGG and KOA from LAX. At the time, KOA had a short runway. And the 737-900ER can not make it today from OGG. It is a mystery to me. And LA and SFO are about 2200nm with SFO being even shorter? And the jet stream is from east to west. Maybe someone can explain why a 737-900ER isn't on an OGG to west coast route?

MrBretz wrote:

And many years ago, I recall flying on DC10s to OGG and KOA from LAX. At the time, KOA had a short runway. And the 737-900ER can not make it today from OGG. It is a mystery to me. And LA and SFO are about 2200nm with SFO being even shorter? And the jet stream is from east to west. Maybe someone can explain why a 737-900ER isn't on an OGG to west coast route?

It's really not a mystery, when in fact the 737-900 needs a lot of runway to get off the ground. The runways are just too short at both LIH & OGG to get a fully loaded 739 of the ground. While both HNL & KOA enjoy runways that are significantly longer.

Thanks to those that participated so far, I have learned several things that I did not know already super input so far, keep it coming.

I'm really curious if the 737MAX8's that AS has coming starting next year can operate SNA-Hawaii without weight restrictions.

RWA380 wrote:

So when AQ pioneered using 737's to & from the mainland they used the 73G or 737-700. The SP model of the 737 line. longer range nearly 3,000 nm model. With ETOPS requirements AQ did well with the bird, although the low passenger count was what made it a low profit operation for AQ.

Interesting tidbit: toward the end, AQ leased a 738 from Transavia for the OGG-SMF-OGG market, flying in a hybrid livery.

Wingtips56 wrote:

RWA380 wrote:

So when AQ pioneered using 737's to & from the mainland they used the 73G or 737-700. The SP model of the 737 line. longer range nearly 3,000 nm model. With ETOPS requirements AQ did well with the bird, although the low passenger count was what made it a low profit operation for AQ.

Interesting tidbit: toward the end, AQ leased a 738 from Transavia for the OGG-SMF-OGG market, flying in a hybrid livery.

Something tells me I've seen that aircraft before, but I didn't know that AQ was flying the 800, nice tidbit thanks for the addition & as always appreciate the input from you wingtips. Was the 800 just for that market because out of all the AQ mainland routes, this had the highest demand? AS flies it now, so that would make total sense that there is an ongoing demand for the non-stop service & a 737-800 seems to be the right aircraft, maybe HA will jump on it when the 321's arrive..

I have a feeling HA will use the 321NEO to go head to head with AS. AS exploited the niche AQ created to many of the secondary west coast markets. Traditionally HA's aircraft have been too large, especially from the neighbor islands.

SMF-OGG was the only market I knew of with the 73H, as it was billed, but that doesn't mean there weren't more. However if this Transavia -800 was the only one they had, then it follows. SMF-OGG started as a shared ride operating SMF-SNA-OGG (although it might have been over BUR for a while ....memory fades, and I worked for somebody else). AQ did sell SMF-SNA-SMF local service in addition to the thru traffic to OGG; south in the morning and back in the evening. (It's also possible SNA didn't have room for another RON, which is the same reason SMF had an AA SMF-SNA-DFW RON with a 757 for a while.) I think SMF finally got their own non-stop on a 73G before the 73H came along. As AQ mainland service grew, they may have needed the lift provided by the Transavia lease more for the wings than the extra capacity, but the SMF route must have been the better use of the extra capacity versus OAK, SNA or others. (RNO always was an add-on without a non-stop to my knowledge.)
As to HA, it's hard to say if they will add SMF-OGG or another market if not to compete with AS. All I hear is that the SMF-HNL 767 on HA is always full, so I don't see them downgauging that to the 321. (Up to the A330 is more likely.) So perhaps SMF-KOA? ( I was lucky enough to take the inaugural SMF-HNL flight; special reception in the gate lounge, the Hawai'ian blessing of the plane, special treats and leis in flight. Water cannons on departure, which happened because I had called the County Ops about...their first. Very nice. You would have loved it, RWA.)

hiflyeras wrote:

I'm really curious if the 737MAX8's that AS has coming starting next year can operate SNA-Hawaii without weight restrictions.

No they will not be able to.

[quote=passedv1]
Flagstops are exceedingly rare, I don't think AS has had any since "APU on-demand" was started.[/quote]

When did Alaska start this? I know my in-laws had a stop in SJC on a SEA-KOA flight in early March 2016. It seems like there were a couple in there. I think the winds were kicking through.

Crazy that a 767 can operate OGG-DFW for AA, yet OGG's runway is still too short for the 739. Interesting to me that's all!

9w748capt wrote:

Crazy that a 767 can operate OGG-DFW for AA, yet OGG's runway is still too short for the 739. Interesting to me that's all!

If the 739's gear was taller, this probably would be feasible. The airplane has to accelerate to takeoff speeds much greater than the other 737 models because it cannot rotate at a high enough pitch to get off the ground. I would assume that at times rotation speeds can be even faster than the 767's at OGG.

9w748capt wrote:

Crazy that a 767 can operate OGG-DFW for AA, yet OGG's runway is still too short for the 739. Interesting to me that's all!

You and the others who have remarked about the 739ER and widebody aircraft leaving the Islands should also keep in mind that the 739 has only FOUR wheel and brake assemblies to stop with. The 752, 763, and DC-10-10 all had eight. While those are certainly heavier airplanes, the 739 really struggles to do anything it does.
I love my 737s, but the 739 loooooooves the ground. It's not that the plane can't get off the ground, per se, but that it can't do it with any margin of safety for a rejected takeoff. It's a combination of factors working against the airframe.
V1 on a short runway for that airplane is like, two knots!! Brakes released? Vee ONE!

That's the advantage - though slight - of the A321 with it's taller gear. Lower V speeds, sooner rotation, more margins. But still only four brakes.

jumpship wrote:

Flagstops are exceedingly rare, I don't think AS has had any since "APU on-demand" was started.

When did Alaska start this? I know my in-laws had a stop in SJC on a SEA-KOA flight in early March 2016. It seems like there were a couple in there. I think the winds were kicking through.

On Feb. 18, the AS SAN-HNL flight stopped in SJC (my parents were on the HNL-SAN return).
Winds were high that day, I flew HA HNL-LAX that afternoon and our ground speed maxed out at 670 mph. Not sure if the SAN runway length played a part as well.

hiflyeras wrote:

I'm really curious if the 737MAX8's that AS has coming starting next year can operate SNA-Hawaii without weight restrictions.

Nope. The 737 MAX as currently planned will add range, but it won't really help much with field performance compared to the 737NG. SNA will still be all 319/319neo/73G/73G MAX/752 airfield for any mission beyond the west coast or the Rockies hubs.

seabosdca wrote:

hiflyeras wrote:

I'm really curious if the 737MAX8's that AS has coming starting next year can operate SNA-Hawaii without weight restrictions.

Nope. The 737 MAX as currently planned will add range, but it won't really help much with field performance compared to the 737NG. SNA will still be all 319/319neo/73G/73G MAX/752 airfield for any mission beyond the west coast or the Rockies hubs.

Understandable they don't want to invest in a small subfleet of 73G MAX just for SNA-Hawaii service, but presumably those planes could be subbed for slower days out of SAN/OAK/SJC etc as well. Seems odd to have zero LA Basin-Hawaii while going head to head with HA in secondary airports north and south.

One thing to remember with those heavy jets is that they're designed to go much farther than Hawaii to the mainland US. The 737s are flying much closer to the upper end of their range than the widebodies. All the power of the widebodies coupled with the fact that they're flying with much lighter fuel loads than they could be is why they would also have the ability to work with those shorter runways. It's something I noticed when I worked at BWI and we'd get diversions from IAD. Even the A340-600 pops off a runway pretty quickly when it's only going right up the road. Heavily-loaded 737s had much longer takeoff rolls.

sirloin wrote:

One thing to remember with those heavy jets is that they're designed to go much farther than Hawaii to the mainland US. The 737s are flying much closer to the upper end of their range than the widebodies. All the power of the widebodies coupled with the fact that they're flying with much lighter fuel loads than they could be is why they would also have the ability to work with those shorter runways. It's something I noticed when I worked at BWI and we'd get diversions from IAD. Even the A340-600 pops off a runway pretty quickly when it's only going right up the road. Heavily-loaded 737s had much longer takeoff rolls.

While that is true for the 767-300's that operate OGGDFW, the 772A's UA uses on OGGORD do push the range envelope. The route used to operate as a triangle (ORD-OGG-KOA-ORD) as the 772A could not make it nonstop. I suspect the PIP upgrades several years back solved this issue to a degree as to KOA stop hasn't been used for a while. Wikipedia states the 772A range is 5280 nmi. GCmap puts OGGORD is 4181 nmi. If one assumes the 5280 nmi range is the still-wind figure and that real-world flights rarely, if ever follow the GCmap routing, the gap between 772A max range and the OGGORD route closes. As such I suspect the flight goes out pretty close to max fuel.

77H wrote:

sirloin wrote:

One thing to remember with those heavy jets is that they're designed to go much farther than Hawaii to the mainland US. The 737s are flying much closer to the upper end of their range than the widebodies. All the power of the widebodies coupled with the fact that they're flying with much lighter fuel loads than they could be is why they would also have the ability to work with those shorter runways. It's something I noticed when I worked at BWI and we'd get diversions from IAD. Even the A340-600 pops off a runway pretty quickly when it's only going right up the road. Heavily-loaded 737s had much longer takeoff rolls.

While that is true for the 767-300's that operate OGGDFW, the 772A's UA uses on OGGORD do push the range envelope. The route used to operate as a triangle (ORD-OGG-KOA-ORD) as the 772A could not make it nonstop. I suspect the PIP upgrades several years back solved this issue to a degree as to KOA stop hasn't been used for a while. Wikipedia states the 772A range is 5280 nmi. GCmap puts OGGORD is 4181 nmi. If one assumes the 5280 nmi range is the still-wind figure and that real-world flights rarely, if ever follow the GCmap routing, the gap between 772A max range and the OGGORD route closes. As such I suspect the flight goes out pretty close to max fuel.

While the 77A does hold less fuel than 77Es, it's more likely a MTOW weight issue Westbound and thrust thrust for short take off east bound. 77A'a have 13,000+ lbs less thrust per engine than E'a and a MTOW some 110,000lbs less. Not to mention the Hawaii / Domestic A configurations hold nearly 100 pax more than the ITPE configurations.

IIRC, United orginially had further paper derates on MTOW and maybe thrust that they upgraded to full capability a few years back (along with PIPs). The fact they're able to fly east bound now makes me think the thrust rating is what used to require the stop over EB. (74 vs 77k?)

jumpship wrote:

[quote=passedv1]
Flagstops are exceedingly rare, I don't think AS has had any since "APU on-demand" was started.

When did Alaska start this? I know my in-laws had a stop in SJC on a SEA-KOA flight in early March 2016. It seems like there were a couple in there. I think the winds were kicking through.[/quote]

I'm not privy to the exact stats...just the ones I'm involved with. AS use to have several a week...so I guess it's not never...but it's WAY less than it use to be.

77H wrote:

UA and DL send 739's to HNL and KOA. UA sends a mix of 757-2/3 and 738s to LIH and OGG. DL sends the 752 to LIH and OGG. AA sends the 321 to all islands.

DL will start 737-900 service from LAX-KOA starting within this month i believe some days twice daily,Also DL sends one 737-900 to HNL daily..I will be sad my DL 757 to KOA will be gone soon!!

ucdtim17 wrote:

seabosdca wrote:

hiflyeras wrote:

I'm really curious if the 737MAX8's that AS has coming starting next year can operate SNA-Hawaii without weight restrictions.

Nope. The 737 MAX as currently planned will add range, but it won't really help much with field performance compared to the 737NG. SNA will still be all 319/319neo/73G/73G MAX/752 airfield for any mission beyond the west coast or the Rockies hubs.

Understandable they don't want to invest in a small subfleet of 73G MAX just for SNA-Hawaii service, but presumably those planes could be subbed for slower days out of SAN/OAK/SJC etc as well. Seems odd to have zero LA Basin-Hawaii while going head to head with HA in secondary airports north and south.

Not sure this is the case. United flies old (relatively) A320's from SNA to IAH and ORD. Both are fairly long hauls. A320's certainly aren't know for steller field performance. Haven't checked the math but I'm pretty sure 738'a with SFP can carry decent payloads over these sectors.

Not sure how much less fuel weight a Max 8 heading to HI would need but it could certainly do it technically with some restrictions.

The forthcoming 320 Neo short field kit will help a lot as well

All of that said, with the way the SNA slot system works, what's the point? It's well setup to reward smaller gauge craft.

Okcflyer wrote:

77H wrote:

sirloin wrote:

One thing to remember with those heavy jets is that they're designed to go much farther than Hawaii to the mainland US. The 737s are flying much closer to the upper end of their range than the widebodies. All the power of the widebodies coupled with the fact that they're flying with much lighter fuel loads than they could be is why they would also have the ability to work with those shorter runways. It's something I noticed when I worked at BWI and we'd get diversions from IAD. Even the A340-600 pops off a runway pretty quickly when it's only going right up the road. Heavily-loaded 737s had much longer takeoff rolls.

While that is true for the 767-300's that operate OGGDFW, the 772A's UA uses on OGGORD do push the range envelope. The route used to operate as a triangle (ORD-OGG-KOA-ORD) as the 772A could not make it nonstop. I suspect the PIP upgrades several years back solved this issue to a degree as to KOA stop hasn't been used for a while. Wikipedia states the 772A range is 5280 nmi. GCmap puts OGGORD is 4181 nmi. If one assumes the 5280 nmi range is the still-wind figure and that real-world flights rarely, if ever follow the GCmap routing, the gap between 772A max range and the OGGORD route closes. As such I suspect the flight goes out pretty close to max fuel.

While the 77A does hold less fuel than 77Es, it's more likely a MTOW weight issue Westbound and thrust thrust for short take off east bound. 77A'a have 13,000+ lbs less thrust per engine than E'a and a MTOW some 110,000lbs less. Not to mention the Hawaii / Domestic A configurations hold nearly 100 pax more than the ITPE configurations.

IIRC, United orginially had further paper derates on MTOW and maybe thrust that they upgraded to full capability a few years back (along with PIPs). The fact they're able to fly east bound now makes me think the thrust rating is what used to require the stop over EB. (74 vs 77k?)

You are correct, that is what I was thinking of. I think sometime around the merger is when the brought the 77A engines back to full thrust. The one downside is the loss of 777 service on what amounts to a ~15 minute flight between OGGKOA. I flew on it back when it was UA0003. Unfortunately my final was OGG so I never got the chance. I'll just have to settle for HA's 767 interisland services when available.

dlflynhayn wrote:

77H wrote:

UA and DL send 739's to HNL and KOA. UA sends a mix of 757-2/3 and 738s to LIH and OGG. DL sends the 752 to LIH and OGG. AA sends the 321 to all islands.

DL will start 737-900 service from LAX-KOA starting within this month i believe some days twice daily,Also DL sends one 737-900 to HNL daily..I will be sad my DL 757 to KOA will be gone soon!!

UA has pulled so many 752/3 flights from the islands over the past year. It is mostly 738/9s to/from SFO and LAX with the once a day 772. Sad times indeed.

Is there any word on if the PDX flight will go 739? I know SEAHNL has at least 1 739 currently. It was actually the first route to get the 900ER to HI. I remember seeing it on the north hardstands and rubbing my eyes a few times in shock.

77H wrote:

dlflynhayn wrote:

77H wrote:

UA and DL send 739's to HNL and KOA. UA sends a mix of 757-2/3 and 738s to LIH and OGG. DL sends the 752 to LIH and OGG. AA sends the 321 to all islands.

DL will start 737-900 service from LAX-KOA starting within this month i believe some days twice daily,Also DL sends one 737-900 to HNL daily..I will be sad my DL 757 to KOA will be gone soon!!

UA has pulled so many 752/3 flights from the islands over the past year. It is mostly 738/9s to/from SFO and LAX with the once a day 772. Sad times indeed.

Is there any word on if the PDX flight will go 739? I know SEAHNL has at least 1 739 currently. It was actually the first route to get the 900ER to HI. I remember seeing it on the north hardstands and rubbing my eyes a few times in shock.

I am flying PDX-HNL on November 2nd & AS recently changed the aircraft type to the 737-900ER from the originally scheduled 737-800. So yes HNL is scheduled to be a 739 throughout the peak season, which makes sense.

I think the remainder of the Islands that connect to PDX on AS all see 737-800's. Someone earlier in this thread had confirmed that AS indeed does operate their 739ER to KOA, but I'd imagine only from SEA. I haven't seen it for PDX ever on their seasonal schedule.