VapourTrails
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread Part 146

Thu Oct 27, 2016 1:16 am

allrite wrote:
Apparently some controversy about the new uniforms and dress code. Big moustaches are out. Yet at today's event they've got people in retro clothes. So would this be acceptable?


Thanks for the article link and accompanying video. Interesting read.

From the article:

Qantas pilots fume over stricter uniform standards, by Matt O’Sullivan, October 27, 2016, Sydney Morning Herald.

"Handlebar moustaches, backpacks and chewing gum are out, while jackets are to be worn more regularly.

That's the message to thousands of Qantas pilots in new guidelines about stricter uniform standards they need to meet to uphold their "image as a trusted, experienced ambassador of the Qantas brand".

Pilots are fuming over the requirements for them to wear their new jackets more often such as when travelling to their aircraft unless it is more than 27 degrees or they are at airports in the tropics.

"If full uniform [is] not worn, you should not be recognisable as a Qantas pilot [when travelling to or from work]," the guidelines state.

The airline deems they won't be recognisable as Qantas pilots on their way to work if they are just wearing uniform pants and shirt. But jackets, hats, epaulettes and wings are considered recognisable.

Until now, pilots say it has largely been at the discretion of a plane's captain about whether the flight crew had to wear a jacket.

Qantas pilots were issued a 23-page guidebook last week, ahead of the requirement from Thursday for all of them to wear their new uniforms unveiled in April.

While indicating a "general satisfaction with the new suit design", a survey of almost 1300 pilots by the Australian and International Pilots Association found a clear majority were critical of symbolic parts of the uniform such as the wing design, epaulettes and the badge on their new white hats.

"The white cap is supposed to take us back to the days of flying boats but it's 2016, not the 1940s. We don't fly flying boats, we fly aeroplanes," one pilot said.
"They don't call it a uniform, they call it a costume. Everyone has got the shits that they are trying to make us wear this stuff."

The airline has since decided to make the wings out of metal instead of fabric, and enlarge the epaulettes. But it has drawn the line at the hat because it believed alterations would have too great an impact on the overall design and image.

Qantas's new uniform guidelines give an insight into the lengths airlines go to project a clean-cut image to passengers and the wider public.

Pilots must never "use a backpack or rucksack when in uniform", "chew gum or drink alcohol in uniform" or "smoke when in uniform in view of the public".

In order to "wear it right", Qantas pilots have been told to button up their uniform jacket" and wear their hats when walking through an airport terminal.

Earrings are allowed to be worn only by female pilots, and even then they "should be plain round pearl, silver, gold or diamond studs".

"Wearing visible facial jewellery including the piercing of noses, eyebrows, tongues and mouths is not acceptable when in uniform," the guidelines state.

And the criteria outlining grooming for men shows why the annual "Movember" fundraising event would be a tricky proposition for a Qantas pilot.

While a moustache is permitted, the guidelines state that "the outline of the upper lip shall clearly be visible".

"Long moustaches such as handlebar, horseshoe (or 'trucker') and similar styles are unacceptable," they say.

Hair length "that falls onto eyebrows or shirt collar is not acceptable", and beards are not permitted while "sideburns should be below your earlobe in length".

Like for most airlines, beards have been off limits for Qantas pilots for years, partly because of the potential for the seal on an oxygen mask to be broken by whiskers.
Female pilots have been told that their hair should not fall past their shoulder, and their fringe "should be kept above the eyes".

"Make-up should complement that individual, look natural and blend with the uniform," the guidelines say. "Brightly coloured or sparkly eyeshadow should not be worn."
Qantas chief pilot Richard Tobiano said in a statement that standards were very important when it came to uniforms.

"I know that our pilots are very proud and feel privileged to fly for Qantas and to wear the uniform, which not only looks fantastic but also pays tribute to the history of our airline and profession," he said.

While they may be a bone of contention for Qantas pilots, the guidelines do offer some helpful hints for those who have always struggled in the wardrobe department.

Among the tips is to "never hang your jacket on a wire hanger", nor hang a tie on a rack "as the lining will drop over time and cause wrinkles".

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

I do agree with the comment about the white hats and that was the first thing I noticed back in the launch .. "The white cap is supposed to take us back to the days of flying boats but it's 2016, not the 1940s. We don't fly flying boats, we fly aeroplanes," one pilot said.

BTW here is the thread when the new uniforms were launched back in April: viewtopic.php?t=605779

I agree with the overall dress standards and guidelines, these are important, however pedantic it may seem at the time re video detail. Looking at the bigger picture.

It is also about image and public perception, moreso than some other professions. A national carrier is high profile and highly visible, and is an international business, at the end of the day.
Last edited by VapourTrails on Thu Oct 27, 2016 1:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread Part 146

Thu Oct 27, 2016 1:21 am

VapourTrails wrote:
I do agree with the comment about the white hats and that was the first thing I noticed back in the launch .. "The white cap is supposed to take us back to the days of flying boats but it's 2016, not the 1940s. We don't fly flying boats, we fly aeroplanes," one pilot said.


I don't know. When I hear "white hat" and "boat" this is what I think of:

Image

(Note the colour of Skipper's hat? Okay, so Gilligan's hat is off white... not in all photos... It got a little dirty is all...).

:D

I hate prescriptive dress codes (he says wearing shorts in the office).
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread Part 146

Thu Oct 27, 2016 1:27 am

allrite wrote:
I hate prescriptive dress codes (he says wearing shorts in the office).


LOL! Why, you off for a jog, or to the gym.. Yeah, easy for me to say, I was thinking too, I haven't had to wear a uniform since high school, or the local Pony Club days - yikes, - even though most workplaces do have a certain standard of dress code. A uniform makes deciding what to wear each day very easy! Well, no decision there. Can claim on dry cleaning and other expenses though too, when it's uniform dress code.
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread Part 146

Thu Oct 27, 2016 1:59 am

777Jet wrote:
They really got the livery tweak wrong.


I really liked the current livery with the italisced font, it is something that really suits the airframe design, now it just looks too vertical - like a billboard sign. Sigh.

I didn't like the gold trim when it faded, I think silver will wear better.

I didn't really notice the roo differences until others pointed them out so I don't think it is as obvious as the fonts.
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread Part 146

Thu Oct 27, 2016 2:33 am

It's OK but I can't help feeling the logo is gradually morphing into something only vaguely roo. If you go over the past 4 liveries, it has changed from a distinct roo (albeit with wings) into a blobby roo shape. At this rate, in 40 years it will just be a white blob on a red background.
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread Part 146

Thu Oct 27, 2016 3:01 am

Apart from a few "tweaks" over the years, QF aircraft still carry the basic livery that was introduced on the B747-300s over 30 years ago! I really thought QF would come up with something stunning for the introduction of the Dreamliners, but alas, that was not to be! I think there has been a lot of hype for a fairly mediocre result. Look at Air New Zealand's innovation with their livery - this was the perfect opportunity for QF to really think outside the square!!
 
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread Part 146

Thu Oct 27, 2016 3:21 am

luftaom wrote:
Just (tangentially) picking up on EK413 talk of the QF Perth being all under the one roof (domestic and international) I'm sure that there was some fairly official suggestion by Sydney Airport that long term they wanted to put QF (and friends) domestic and international into the current domestic terminals, with a combined domestic and international VA (and friends) being in the current international terminal. I seem to recall that VA were against it because the current international terminal is just that bit further from the city and they would lose the time sensitive (read higher yielding) domestic passengers as a result.


I remember this was the long term plan operators of SYD unfortunately VA wasn't impressed with the idea & objected. Not sure where we stand though as I personally see it as an advantage to have 1 terminal with Domestic & International under the one roof. Would certainly distribute the traffic flow too!

Thai77w wrote:
I think we'll see TAA returning to the skies tomorrow...

QPJ and QPH are to be repainted in VCV.

It only just has had a full refit in BNE, I seriously doubt it's had a refit in VCV. 15 days is about right for a complex livery. ;)


You certainly hit the nail on the head! The new livery resembles TAA :)
Over all I love the fine touches, retro Roo on all aircraft, roo on the winglets, Qantas logo on the belly :) The revised engine cowling Roo & clawless Roo will take sometime to grow on me.

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Re: Australian Aviation Thread Part 146

Thu Oct 27, 2016 3:38 am

Jetstar315 wrote:
Apart from a few "tweaks" over the years, QF aircraft still carry the basic livery that was introduced on the B747-300s over 30 years ago! I really thought QF would come up with something stunning for the introduction of the Dreamliners, but alas, that was not to be! I think there has been a lot of hype for a fairly mediocre result. Look at Air New Zealand's innovation with their livery - this was the perfect opportunity for QF to really think outside the square!!


I don't think Qantas wants to mess with its support base that much. A huge tweak is just going to court controversy that it doesn't need. Air New Zealand already has an image as a bit of a cheeky innovator. Qantas' brand recognition relies on safety and familiarity - the latter is where "Feels like home" comes from. It doesn't need to reinvent its image, especially when their domestic competitor (remembering that the home front is very important to their business!) Virgin Australia has done such a crap job of reinventing their own image (ie trying to copy old Qantas).

I'd love to see the orange Australian Airlines livery make a return, maybe as a retro jet scheme, one day. I was just looking at a model of it the other day and it really evoked some memories, despite only flying them once. Obviously got a thing about orange (loved the old V/Line livery too) - at least the colour lives on a little bit in Jetstar.
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread Part 146

Thu Oct 27, 2016 9:05 am

EK413 wrote:
I remember this was the long term plan operators of SYD unfortunately VA wasn't impressed with the idea & objected. Not sure where we stand though as I personally see it as an advantage to have 1 terminal with Domestic & International under the one roof. Would certainly distribute the traffic flow too!



It remains to be seen if the proposed major traffic flow works near the domestic terminals will significantly improve the traffic issues. I haven't done it for a while - but Sunday evenings were absolute bedlam on all the approach roads to the domestic terminals - you could be in a jam right back to the end of runway 25 area (near the end of the eastern distributor). I suspect that over at the international terminal the traffic situation, wasn't a problem.

The management of Sydney airport have to be amongst the best (if not the best) managers in the world of airports (from a financial perspective) . They get that an airport makes most of its money on the retail and carparking not the aeronautics and that dwell time and visual line of sight to as many shops as possible is what drives their profit. What they have done in the international terminal in terms of constantly putting shops in your face is frankly superb. I'm sure that they will be looking to sort the traffic issues so as that they can get people into the domestic terminals faster, thus increasing dwell time.
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread Part 146

Thu Oct 27, 2016 10:05 am

New roo's first flight is QF5 to SIN

https://www.flightradar24.com/reg/vh-qpj
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bbbb
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread Part 146

Thu Oct 27, 2016 10:29 am

Interesting look at the 787 and it's potential first few routes - says PER-LHR is under quite serious consideration. It was always my personal opinion that PER-LHR was a very distant dream, and it was being talked up just to gain some media attention:
https://australinea.com/qantas-group-ou ... 7-arrives/
 
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread Part 146

Thu Oct 27, 2016 11:02 am

bbbb wrote:
Interesting look at the 787 and it's potential first few routes - says PER-LHR is under quite serious consideration. It was always my personal opinion that PER-LHR was a very distant dream, and it was being talked up just to gain some media attention:
https://australinea.com/qantas-group-ou ... 7-arrives/


I think PER-LHR will happen but very unlikely to be the inital new destination, may be more towards aircraft 6+ from the inital order. My bet is on America getting the first few in some way. My bet is on MEL-DFW being the first new route once the second frame arrives, followed by BNE-DFW. It is quite likely the first frames will be based in Melbourne so could operated MEL-DFW-BNE-DFW-MEL
 
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread Part 146

Thu Oct 27, 2016 1:59 pm

Hey guys,
A few hours later and a few conversations with plane spotters like me, plus a couple of conversations with 'average Joes' and it's still a huge FAIL on the new QF livery....
Everything about it stinks. Really stinks. It's appalling with absolutely no saving graces.
Another Australian icon destroyed.
Virgin Australia looks so so so much more professional, cool and 'on trend' than the mismatch of fonts, colours and badly executed design ideas that the new Qantas livery is.
A national embarrassment.
Maybe Malcolm Turnbull needs to put his handkerchief over the tail the next time he walks past a model of a QF jet....
An bitterly disappointed and appalled Bunumuring.

And yes, I've made my protest official and formal to QF.
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread Part 146

Thu Oct 27, 2016 2:42 pm

VH-QPH is now her way to VCV via HNL

http://www.theqantassource.com/qantas-a ... intenance/
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An767
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread Part 146

Thu Oct 27, 2016 10:36 pm

bunumuring wrote:
Hey guys,
A few hours later and a few conversations with plane spotters like me, plus a couple of conversations with 'average Joes' and it's still a huge FAIL on the new QF livery....
Everything about it stinks. Really stinks. It's appalling with absolutely no saving graces.
Another Australian icon destroyed.
Virgin Australia looks so so so much more professional, cool and 'on trend' than the mismatch of fonts, colours and badly executed design ideas that the new Qantas livery is.
A national embarrassment.
Maybe Malcolm Turnbull needs to put his handkerchief over the tail the next time he walks past a model of a QF jet....
An bitterly disappointed and appalled Bunumuring.

And yes, I've made my protest official and formal to QF.


And I am sure they will listen to you ......
What specifically do you find that makes it a disgrace? or are you just upset that they did not follow your expert advise and do it in another Winula scheme . I am sure Malcolm Turnbull has bigger issues that the QF logo to worry about right now

AN767
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread Part 146

Thu Oct 27, 2016 11:04 pm

An767 wrote:
bunumuring wrote:
Hey guys,
A few hours later and a few conversations with plane spotters like me, plus a couple of conversations with 'average Joes' and it's still a huge FAIL on the new QF livery....
Everything about it stinks. Really stinks. It's appalling with absolutely no saving graces.
Another Australian icon destroyed.
Virgin Australia looks so so so much more professional, cool and 'on trend' than the mismatch of fonts, colours and badly executed design ideas that the new Qantas livery is.
A national embarrassment.
Maybe Malcolm Turnbull needs to put his handkerchief over the tail the next time he walks past a model of a QF jet....
An bitterly disappointed and appalled Bunumuring.

And yes, I've made my protest official and formal to QF.


And I am sure they will listen to you ......
What specifically do you find that makes it a disgrace? or are you just upset that they did not follow your expert advise and do it in another Winula scheme . I am sure Malcolm Turnbull has bigger issues that the QF logo to worry about right now

AN767


Yes we are all entitled to our opinion...gotta love bunumerings 'passion' :) that's my opinion :)
 
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread Part 146

Fri Oct 28, 2016 1:26 am

""Earrings are allowed to be worn only by female pilots, and even then they "should be plain round pearl, silver, gold or diamond studs".""

Does opal come under pearl, or are they excluded?

VapourTrails wrote:
777Jet wrote:
They really got the livery tweak wrong.


I really liked the current livery with the italisced font, it is something that really suits the airframe design, now it just looks too vertical - like a billboard sign. Sigh.

I didn't like the gold trim when it faded, I think silver will wear better.



The silver might wear better, but IMHO the gold trim looked very nice / classy when maintained. Can't say that about the silver...
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread Part 146

Fri Oct 28, 2016 1:44 am

777Jet wrote:
The silver might wear better, but IMHO the gold trim looked very nice / classy when maintained. Can't say that about the silver...


When maintained yes. Let us see how the silver looks in a few years time.. I actually prefer the current livery too, with no gold or silver.
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VapourTrails
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread Part 146

Fri Oct 28, 2016 1:47 am

An767 wrote:
And I am sure they will listen to you...

AN767


It is good that everyone can have an opinion I agree, and I am sure the opinions are being read by those who were involved in the livery update!

What's done is done. Underneath all that paint, artwork, design, and those new uniforms, it's still the same Qantas. Phew.
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread Part 146

Fri Oct 28, 2016 3:46 pm

CA had planned to start SZX-MEL this Sunday, however it has now been revised to start on 9 Jan 17

http://www.routesonline.com/news/38/air ... -jan-2017/
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luftaom
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread Part 146

Fri Oct 28, 2016 4:16 pm

The Qantas PR machine is doing an excellent job in relation to the 787 (which are still a year away!).

To take an unscientific (and statistically insignificant) sample - my family and Mrs Luftaom's family (none of whom are overly interested in aviation) are talking about the new PER-LHR flights and the SYD-ORD flights and posting links to articles which are very well written with quite specific facts (although admittedly LHR and ORD are the 2 most popular international destinations for everyone so there is more than a passing interest in these particular destinations).

The amount of free publicity QF are getting at the moment is quite impressive. Given the way the various articles are being written I'm quite sure that QF is providing off the record background briefings to select journalists.

Separately, does anyone know if Airfast Indonesia is still running the once/twice a week Timika-Cairns rotation? Which according to this was a charter operation - viewtopic.php?t=567545
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread Part 146

Fri Oct 28, 2016 7:46 pm

I'm getting a lot of Qantas banner ads and they all have the old logo. If you're going to do something, do it 100%!
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread Part 146

Sat Oct 29, 2016 12:40 am

bunumuring wrote:
Hey guys,
A few hours later and a few conversations with plane spotters like me, plus a couple of conversations with 'average Joes' and it's still a huge FAIL on the new QF livery....
Everything about it stinks. Really stinks. It's appalling with absolutely no saving graces.
Another Australian icon destroyed.
Virgin Australia looks so so so much more professional, cool and 'on trend' than the mismatch of fonts, colours and badly executed design ideas that the new Qantas livery is.
A national embarrassment.
Maybe Malcolm Turnbull needs to put his handkerchief over the tail the next time he walks past a model of a QF jet....
An bitterly disappointed and appalled Bunumuring.

And yes, I've made my protest official and formal to QF.


People have different opinions, all the spotters, avgeeks and others I have been talking to love the new scheme, everyone thinks it is great update. Even avgeeks I know overseas are loving the updated roo!. Wheras everyone I talk to thinks virgins scheme looks like someone squirted the tomato sauce in the wrong direction when they tried to put it on their meat pie....Different opinions I guess.

I have let Qantas know how much I love their new scheme!
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread Part 146

Sat Oct 29, 2016 7:38 am

Qantas can't be everything for everyone like every Australian seems to think.

Bunumuring's reaction about the 'refreshed' livery is a waste of breath. While everyone is entitled to an opinion and yes, change is hard for some people, leave it at a "I hate it" post on a-net. Writing a letter to the Prime Minister is just sad. You know you waste tax payer dollars on APS employees who respond to your letter on the PM's behalf.

Personally, there are so many other things that were not said on Thursday that annoy me more than this 'refreshed' livery that I'm sure I'll get use to.
I'm that bad type.
 
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread Part 146

Sat Oct 29, 2016 8:38 am

bunumuring wrote:
Hey guys,
A few hours later and a few conversations with plane spotters like me, plus a couple of conversations with 'average Joes' and it's still a huge FAIL on the new QF livery....
Everything about it stinks. Really stinks. It's appalling with absolutely no saving graces.
Another Australian icon destroyed.
Virgin Australia looks so so so much more professional, cool and 'on trend' than the mismatch of fonts, colours and badly executed design ideas that the new Qantas livery is.
A national embarrassment.
Maybe Malcolm Turnbull needs to put his handkerchief over the tail the next time he walks past a model of a QF jet....
An bitterly disappointed and appalled Bunumuring.

And yes, I've made my protest official and formal to QF.


I normally enjoy your posts Bunumuring, but with this you are being ridiculous. Ok, so you didn't like it, not everyone was going to, but if you think for a moment that writing a letter to QF or the PM is going to make a shred of difference you are greatly mistaken...

If it matters that much to you, go fly Virgin from now on with their "so so so much more professional, cool and 'on trend'" livery...
 
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread Part 146

Sat Oct 29, 2016 9:46 am

Qantas service on BNE-POM starts tomorrow. QF57 leavings Brisbane at 0850 and returns as QF58 arriving at 1600.

Air Canada increase to 787-9 also begins on Tuesday IIRC.
 
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread Part 146

Sun Oct 30, 2016 7:30 am

Separately, does anyone know if Airfast Indonesia is still running the once/twice a week Timika-Cairns rotation? Which according to this was a charter operation - viewtopic.php?t=567545[/quote]

Company I work for send staff to Timika. From what I can work out the Cairns option is no longer available. I know a guy went there a few months ago. From Sydney he went via Jakarta on GA. I think there's a long stop over too. Some go via Bali.
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread Part 146

Mon Oct 31, 2016 3:22 am

Boeing have detailed Qantas' 2nd B787-9 to be built in Everett will be Line number 641, Variable number ZB270 (no MSN yet) for delivery 1 Dec 2017.
 
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread Part 146

Mon Oct 31, 2016 9:19 am

MU eyes more flights, new routes in the coming year

http://www.ausbt.com.au/china-eastern-e ... new-routes
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread Part 146

Mon Oct 31, 2016 9:21 am

Qantas reports lower first quarter revenues, expects reduced first half profit

http://australianaviation.com.au/2016/1 ... efore-tax/
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smi0006
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread Part 146

Mon Oct 31, 2016 9:37 am

qf789 wrote:
Qantas reports lower first quarter revenues, expects reduced first half profit

http://australianaviation.com.au/2016/1 ... efore-tax/


Interesting, I think we'll see a few more results downgrades across the industry always hard to keep the record growth going- far from a bad result but low fuel does mean more competition.
 
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread Part 146

Tue Nov 01, 2016 7:39 am

Fly Corporate begins BNE-TMW

Think their timings might be better suited for a full days work in BNE. See how they go against Jetgo.

http://australianaviation.com.au/2016/1 ... h-flights/
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread Part 146

Tue Nov 01, 2016 7:55 am

Captain Richard de Crespigny (QF32) features on Insight tonight on SBS 1 November, https://youtu.be/0SgEt0F9wHE. This is a great weekly documentary series, and any interview with Richard de Crespigny, is worth seeing too!

The topic tonight is about decision-making processes in high stakes situations. http://www.sbs.com.au/news/insight/arti ... ving-pilot
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travelhound
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread Part 146

Tue Nov 01, 2016 8:11 am

I wonder how Virgin are going. They have been very quiet lately!
 
vhebb
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread Part 146

Tue Nov 01, 2016 8:23 am

Virgin Australia probably quiet due to this:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1346641
 
VapourTrails
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread Part 146

Tue Nov 01, 2016 8:27 am

travelhound wrote:
I wonder how Virgin are going. They have been very quiet lately!

Every time I look at booking a flight on VA they are more expensive than QF these days! So I don't. I would like to fly on their E190 (once more) again though.
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743Flyer
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread Part 146

Tue Nov 01, 2016 8:29 am

travelhound wrote:
I wonder how Virgin are going. They have been very quiet lately!


https://australinea.com/virgin-australi ... ing-crush/

It is being discussed in another thread ( viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1346641 ), but things aren't looking too great for VA. If EY and SQ pull out, IMHO we will have an Ansett Mk II on our hands.
I guess this raises the question again, is there enought space in the deregulated Australian domestic market for two full service carriers to operate profitably?
Last edited by 743Flyer on Tue Nov 01, 2016 8:47 am, edited 2 times in total.
 
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread Part 146

Tue Nov 01, 2016 8:32 am

vhebb wrote:
Virgin Australia probably quiet due to this


Good minds think alike. :)
 
smi0006
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread Part 146

Tue Nov 01, 2016 11:57 am

743Flyer wrote:
travelhound wrote:
I wonder how Virgin are going. They have been very quiet lately!


https://australinea.com/virgin-australi ... ing-crush/

It is being discussed in another thread ( viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1346641 ), but things aren't looking too great for VA. If EY and SQ pull out, IMHO we will have an Ansett Mk II on our hands.
I guess this raises the question again, is there enought space in the deregulated Australian domestic market for two full service carriers to operate profitably?


I don't think so, if VA did go under I would hope NZ would step in and pick up TTs 320s, and offer their seats to suit product. I think there isn't space for two full service carriers- but one high quality full service, one hybrid, one LCC and one ULCC maybe - all overlapping slightly, but not full out competition.
VA needs to improve their disrupt and ground experience - far to LCC
 
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread Part 146

Tue Nov 01, 2016 12:05 pm

Replying here because this is the only thread which keeps me coming back to a.net (getting very sick of the trolls and smarty pants who post on other threads). I don't always agree with everything which is posted here - but at least it is good, well meaning discussion.

I'm actually wondering whether that Virgin piece is a short selling hit piece. 6 month old firm (at best), couple of token articles on their website, serviced office address, seemingly hidden owner of the URL, no registration as a corporation or business name at ASIC and very importantly no mention of any legal entities (either a natural person or a corporation) on the website. Makes me a little suspicious. This is pure supposition - but something doesn't smell right to me.
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DeltaB717
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread Part 146

Tue Nov 01, 2016 10:01 pm

743Flyer wrote:
I guess this raises the question again, is there enought space in the deregulated Australian domestic market for two full service carriers to operate profitably?


I don't necessarily see the problem as being whether two full-service carriers can compete in Australia profitably. I see the problem as being whether VA sees itself as full-service, as pseudo-LCC, or as all things to all people. My sense is they see themselves as the latter, and that's their downfall. I don't know how they can play in that space, while being (a lot of the time) more expensive than QF, and while offering absolutely zero by way of product or service differentiation. They are basically a confused, renamed QF, and I think it's starting to bite...
 
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread Part 146

Wed Nov 02, 2016 12:51 am

VA has reported a first quarter statutory loss before tax of $34.6 million compared to a $1.7 million statutory profit before tax in the previous corresponding period

http://australianaviation.com.au/2016/1 ... s-revenue/
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread Part 146

Wed Nov 02, 2016 3:10 am

smi0006 wrote:
743Flyer wrote:
travelhound wrote:
I wonder how Virgin are going. They have been very quiet lately!


https://australinea.com/virgin-australi ... ing-crush/

It is being discussed in another thread ( viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1346641 ), but things aren't looking too great for VA. If EY and SQ pull out, IMHO we will have an Ansett Mk II on our hands.
I guess this raises the question again, is there enought space in the deregulated Australian domestic market for two full service carriers to operate profitably?


I don't think so, if VA did go under I would hope NZ would step in and pick up TTs 320s, and offer their seats to suit product. I think there isn't space for two full service carriers- but one high quality full service, one hybrid, one LCC and one ULCC maybe - all overlapping slightly, but not full out competition.
VA needs to improve their disrupt and ground experience - far to LCC

50/50 owned by SQ/NZ maybe. I think QF would go ballistic over it though and throw the kitchen sink at it (despite them doing that in NZ and SQs market with Jetstar).
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travelhound
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread Part 146

Wed Nov 02, 2016 4:43 am

I don't think Virgin will ever go under. Their current predicament revolves around poor cash flows as a result of high debt levels, lease repayments and restructuring costs.

They are actually a complete airline covering the majority of the Australian market. As such it will just take time for the airline to realise its value.

The worse case scenario for the existing shareholders is where they have to buy out debt. For argument sake if VA issued $1 billion in new shares to retire $1 billion in debt they would be more likely able to service the remaining $2 billion in debt.
 
getluv
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread Part 146

Wed Nov 02, 2016 7:18 am

Zkpilot wrote:
smi0006 wrote:
743Flyer wrote:

https://australinea.com/virgin-australi ... ing-crush/

It is being discussed in another thread ( viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1346641 ), but things aren't looking too great for VA. If EY and SQ pull out, IMHO we will have an Ansett Mk II on our hands.
I guess this raises the question again, is there enought space in the deregulated Australian domestic market for two full service carriers to operate profitably?


I don't think so, if VA did go under I would hope NZ would step in and pick up TTs 320s, and offer their seats to suit product. I think there isn't space for two full service carriers- but one high quality full service, one hybrid, one LCC and one ULCC maybe - all overlapping slightly, but not full out competition.
VA needs to improve their disrupt and ground experience - far to LCC

50/50 owned by SQ/NZ maybe. I think QF would go ballistic over it though and throw the kitchen sink at it (despite them doing that in NZ and SQs market with Jetstar).


QF is more annoyed with the Qantas Sales Act. I don't see QF having a problem with NZ/SQ doing anything like that but they would push the point about the QSA being changed.

I don't see why SQ or NZ would get involved after another failed attempt anyway.

VA is a mess. It outdoes QF in some areas, and is completely LCC in other areas. It just lacks an identity at the moment and it doesn't have the cash to keep chasing QF. So downsizing seems like the only option for them at the moment.
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread Part 146

Wed Nov 02, 2016 7:57 am

In the absolute worse case (I to don't think it will happen) scenario if VA went the way of Ansett, what would happen to SkyWest, they survived the Ansett collapse to become a stand alone airline before Virgin Australia incorporated their fleet into theirs, would SkyWest go back to a stand alone intra West Australian Airline or would they go down with Virgin if that was to happen?
 
luftaom
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread Part 146

Wed Nov 02, 2016 11:30 am

Skywest will be part of the Virgin financing security net (i.e. the lenders will have a charge over the shares in skywest (and a separate charge over the assets of Skywest individually for good measure too).

This was also the case when Ansett went bust. In the case of Ansett it was that the business could survive as a standalone entity and could be reasonably easily carved out of the main operating entity and a buyer was found (this is also what happened to the Kendell etc. carve out which became Rex). A lot of ands - but it is possible for a part of group which has gone under to be carved out and have a life under a new buyer.
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CXfirst
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread Part 146

Wed Nov 02, 2016 2:16 pm

Emirates EK424/425 rotation to Perth has been downgraded to a 777-300ER from an A380 for the month of November. Back to A380 from the 1st of December.

I know EK424/425 loads have been abysmal (especially EK425) since the A380 change. Working at the airport, I am yet to see it leave with more than 200 passengers, and have seen it as low as 86 passengers.

Any idea if this November down-gauge was always on the cards, due to expected low loads, or if loads are just much lower than expected, and thus the flight has been downgraded? Anyone book this flight this month, and were expecting an A380?

-CXfirst
 
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qf789
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread Part 146

Wed Nov 02, 2016 3:37 pm

CXfirst wrote:
Emirates EK424/425 rotation to Perth has been downgraded to a 777-300ER from an A380 for the month of November. Back to A380 from the 1st of December.

I know EK424/425 loads have been abysmal (especially EK425) since the A380 change. Working at the airport, I am yet to see it leave with more than 200 passengers, and have seen it as low as 86 passengers.

Any idea if this November down-gauge was always on the cards, due to expected low loads, or if loads are just much lower than expected, and thus the flight has been downgraded? Anyone book this flight this month, and were expecting an A380?

-CXfirst


Going by this I would think it was always expected

http://www.routesonline.com/news/38/air ... t=emirates

However saying that the figures your mention aren't surprising. I have a family member who works closely to one of the ME3 and lately when we have been talking about things he has mentioned several times that flights particular to the ME are going out well below capacity in recent times. Looking at the BITRE numbers EK has seen a huge decline in passengers compared to 2015. Over the busy winter months EK has seen June fall by 32% and July and August fall by about 17% each month while EY has grown and QR passenger numbers have remained quite stable compared to 2015. Currently WA has the worst economy in the nation and as such those who can afford to travel are choosing to spend their money wisely and I think this is where EK is suffering as they are the most expensive of the ME3. Also we have seen increases in places such as DPS and BKK throughout the year
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread Part 146

Wed Nov 02, 2016 9:36 pm

luftaom wrote:
Replying here because this is the only thread which keeps me coming back to a.net (getting very sick of the trolls and smarty pants who post on other threads). I don't always agree with everything which is posted here - but at least it is good, well meaning discussion.

I'm actually wondering whether that Virgin piece is a short selling hit piece. 6 month old firm (at best), couple of token articles on their website, serviced office address, seemingly hidden owner of the URL, no registration as a corporation or business name at ASIC and very importantly no mention of any legal entities (either a natural person or a corporation) on the website. Makes me a little suspicious. This is pure supposition - but something doesn't smell right to me.


With 6% float, the share price is going nowhere, hit piece or not

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