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Mortyman
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Norwegian ends summer flights to Las Vegas

Mon Oct 24, 2016 10:51 am

Norwegian ends summer flights to Las Vegas

Temperatures well above 40 degrees degrees celcius creates challenges.

Industry website The check-in reported Monday that Norwegian Air Shuttle puts all Las Vegas routes on pause from March 2017.

Communication Manager Lasse Sandakerveien-Nielsen in Norwegian emphasizes that there is no end in Las Vegas routes.

- In this year's summer program the company has experienced routes between Stockholm and Las Vegas and Copenhagen and Las Vegas, but has decided that the routes ahead will be offered in the winter program. The reason for the adjustment is that we need to reduce weight and thus the number of passengers to be able to take off from Las Vegas in temperatures well above 40 degrees. We do not want to do, writes Sandakerveien-Nielsen in an email to Dagens Næringsliv.

October 31 goes first flight from London to Las Vegas and November 1 goes first flight from Oslo to Las Vegas.

- We are very pleased with the response to Las Vegas routes, writes Sandakerveien-Nielsen

http://www.dn.no/nyheter/naringsliv/201 ... -las-vegas
 
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enilria
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Re: Norwegian ends summer flights to Las Vegas

Mon Oct 24, 2016 11:00 am

That's kind of surprising. The 787 operational envelope is pretty wide, that route is not that long by 787 standards, other carriers fly to Europe with other aircraft, altitude is usually a bigger problem than heat, AND since DY does not have a bank structure they could have the departure move to a cooler time of day.

I'd say either this is an excuse to cover poor economic performance OR the 787 is a much worse performer than we thought. Isn't QR operating them in even higher temps? I don't think QR would have bought the plane if it was heavily restricted in hot temps.
Last edited by enilria on Mon Oct 24, 2016 11:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
centrex
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Re: Norwegian ends summer flights to Las Vegas

Mon Oct 24, 2016 11:01 am

Bad excuse for a route that simply is not working for DY based on this. Actually quite dramatic to cut all 4 routes at once. Maybe partly due to strong USD and LAS being mostly an inbound gateway?
 
Mortyman
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Re: Norwegian ends summer flights to Las Vegas

Mon Oct 24, 2016 11:44 am

centrex wrote:
Bad excuse for a route that simply is not working for DY based on this. Actually quite dramatic to cut all 4 routes at once. Maybe partly due to strong USD and LAS being mostly an inbound gateway?



But they are only cuting in the summer, not in the winter ... One would think that the summer months would be the best time for the largest amount of holiday makers.
 
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piedmontf284000
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Re: Norwegian ends summer flights to Las Vegas

Mon Oct 24, 2016 12:02 pm

One would would think that many Las Vegas residents would want to leave and go somewhere cooler in the summer to places like Oslo or Scandinavia. Maybe those from Europe really don't want to go to Vegas in the summer either seeing as how hot it gets there during those months.


Average Las Vegas Temperatures
Month High
June 100° F (38° C)
July 106° F (41° C)
August 103° F (39° C)
September 95° F (35° C)
 
continental004
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Re: Norwegian ends summer flights to Las Vegas

Mon Oct 24, 2016 12:04 pm

The average household income in LAS is not that high. The Las Vegas metro area got hit hard by the recession.
 
BestWestern
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Re: Norwegian ends summer flights to Las Vegas

Mon Oct 24, 2016 12:15 pm

The airline probably has more profitable use of the aircraft in summer on other routes.
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lesfalls
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Re: Norwegian ends summer flights to Las Vegas

Mon Oct 24, 2016 12:27 pm

BestWestern wrote:
The airline probably has more profitable use of the aircraft in summer on other routes.

Considering that DY is getting 10-11 new 787-9 aircraft in 2017 I think they will have a lot of aircraft on their hands anyway avaliable. They are even operating two Inter-EU routes with their 787-8 and 787-9 which will both be daily. I think they could stay in LAS.
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dbo861
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Re: Norwegian ends summer flights to Las Vegas

Mon Oct 24, 2016 12:36 pm

I'm not sure if this has anything to do with it, but I've been wondering if the strong Dollar and weak Euro has been hurting tourism to the US from Europe. It's great for us if we want to go abroad, but makes it more expensive for Europeans to make their Vegas vacation.
 
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enilria
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Re: Norwegian ends summer flights to Las Vegas

Mon Oct 24, 2016 12:36 pm

CPH has been pretty weak on LF, but that was Winter!
ARN/CPH
12/15 89%/80%
01/16 90/76
02/16 83/60
03/16 91/81
04/16 91/95

The Feb LFs were the lowest in their Transatlantic network. MCO had an 85% on a route that month. The 60% LF on LAS-CPH in FEB was thus 25 points lower than the next lowest non-LAS route that month.
 
r2rho
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Re: Norwegian ends summer flights to Las Vegas

Mon Oct 24, 2016 12:49 pm

Having a 14510 foot runway, I doubt the 788 would have problems out of LAS... or is there sth we are missing about 787 performance?
 
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lesfalls
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Re: Norwegian ends summer flights to Las Vegas

Mon Oct 24, 2016 12:59 pm

enilria wrote:
CPH has been pretty weak on LF, but that was Winter!
ARN/CPH
12/15 89%/80%
01/16 90/76
02/16 83/60
03/16 91/81
04/16 91/95

The Feb LFs were the lowest in their Transatlantic network. MCO had an 85% on a route that month. The 60% LF on LAS-CPH in FEB was thus 25 points lower than the next lowest non-LAS route that month.

I find that surpising. I would have expected their STX-CPH flight to have lower loads.
Lufthansa: Einfach ein bisschen besser.
 
kanye
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Re: Norwegian ends summer flights to Las Vegas

Mon Oct 24, 2016 1:22 pm

Im not surprised. Scandinavia in summer is nice weather, long days and very beautiful nature, can't see many people interested in going to a 40 degrees desert. Makes totally sense to me Norwegian could make more money using the 787ns down to Spain in the summer.
Also the currency made the US more expensive for Europeans recently.
 
skipness1E
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Re: Norwegian ends summer flights to Las Vegas

Mon Oct 24, 2016 1:31 pm

What intra European routes still see the B787?
 
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lesfalls
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Re: Norwegian ends summer flights to Las Vegas

Mon Oct 24, 2016 1:32 pm

skipness1E wrote:
What intra European routes still see the B787?

BCN-OSL and NCE-OSL.
Lufthansa: Einfach ein bisschen besser.
 
a380787
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Re: Norwegian ends summer flights to Las Vegas

Mon Oct 24, 2016 1:43 pm

since when does LAS temperatures deter anyone ? They have year-round nonstops out to Europe from multiple carriers, ICN, and soon, PEK. If daytime temps are so horrible, then re-time the flights for a mid-night-ish departure.

That excuse is almost as lame as "Brexit".
 
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enilria
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Re: Norwegian ends summer flights to Las Vegas

Mon Oct 24, 2016 1:50 pm

a380787 wrote:
since when does LAS temperatures deter anyone ? They have year-round nonstops out to Europe from multiple carriers, ICN, and soon, PEK. If daytime temps are so horrible, then re-time the flights for a mid-night-ish departure.

That excuse is almost as lame as "Brexit".

I agree it makes little sense. They could probably move to 10pm out of LAS and fix any issues, although there really shouldn't be any.
 
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enilria
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Re: Norwegian ends summer flights to Las Vegas

Mon Oct 24, 2016 2:09 pm

I looked at the demand LAS-Europe by month. DEC, JAN, and FEB are the weakest months with 1/2 of Summer demand according to MIDT.

I pulled the DY traffic numbers from here: https://www.mccarran.com/FSWeb/file/396 ... engers.pdf

Assuming DY ran 100% completion, here are their loads outbound by month through the Summer:

J 81.1%
F 71.6%
M 87.7%
A 95.1%
M 95.3%
J 96.6%
J 94.1%
A 94.1%

Summer is pretty FULL, it's Winter that was not fantastic in terms of load. Yields are a question mark.

There are two ways to look at the high Summer load factors (in JUL/AUG were over 94%)...
1) That does not indicate much of a problem with weight limitations, but also means Summer was decent.
2) It is true that load factor dropped a couple points from JUN when it is cooler, but it's still way better than Winter (?). So wouldn't you suffer through 2 load factor points of restrictions in JUL/AUG, rather than operate in Winter where the plane is 10-20 points less full due to demand?

Still doesn't add up.
 
Mortyman
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Re: Norwegian ends summer flights to Las Vegas

Mon Oct 24, 2016 3:04 pm

r2rho wrote:
Having a 14510 foot runway, I doubt the 788 would have problems out of LAS... or is there sth we are missing about 787 performance?


Are they using the 788 or the 789 ?
 
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mercure1
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Re: Norwegian ends summer flights to Las Vegas

Mon Oct 24, 2016 3:09 pm

r2rho wrote:
Having a 14510 foot runway, I doubt the 788 would have problems out of LAS... or is there sth we are missing about 787 performance?


There could be a 20,000ft runway but that does not change the performance capability.

LAS has issues with terrain and climb requirements, plus and there are issues with tire speed on aircraft, the same issues we discussed this weekend in other thread about UA challenge being able to utilize the 777 in DEN.
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Ytraveller
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Re: Norwegian ends summer flights to Las Vegas

Mon Oct 24, 2016 3:28 pm

Mortyman wrote:
r2rho wrote:
Having a 14510 foot runway, I doubt the 788 would have problems out of LAS... or is there sth we are missing about 787 performance?


Are they using the 788 or the 789 ?

788 for CPH, ARN, OSL. LGW will be operated by 789.
 
a380787
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Re: Norwegian ends summer flights to Las Vegas

Mon Oct 24, 2016 3:38 pm

LAS is slightly high up at 665m, but it's more than compensated with a 4423m runway. Neither variant of 787 should have any issues.
 
ZuluTime
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Re: Norwegian ends summer flights to Las Vegas

Mon Oct 24, 2016 4:05 pm

The real question is how did they not know this before deciding to launch the routes to Vegas? It's not exactly as though the summer temperatures have changed or the runway suddenly became shorter, so it smacks of a route planning department operating at a far faster pace than the operations guys can deliver.
 
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Re: Norwegian ends summer flights to Las Vegas

Mon Oct 24, 2016 4:54 pm

enilria wrote:
a380787 wrote:
since when does LAS temperatures deter anyone ? They have year-round nonstops out to Europe from multiple carriers, ICN, and soon, PEK. If daytime temps are so horrible, then re-time the flights for a mid-night-ish departure.

That excuse is almost as lame as "Brexit".

I agree it makes little sense. They could probably move to 10pm out of LAS and fix any issues, although there really shouldn't be any.


If temperature is their big issue, they would have to wait for a 1am LAS departure. During the summer months, for a few hours after sundown it still is extremely hot, still in the triple digets most nights. The tempuratrue usually drops after midnight. A 1am departure would be ideal for temperature issues. But, I'm going to have to agree with everyone else. That is a pretty lame excuse since decade old aircraft can fly into LAS during the hottest time of day in the summer months and be okay. If G4 can fly a MD88 in july, then DY can fly a 788 in july.
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Boeing717200
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Re: Norwegian ends summer flights to Las Vegas

Mon Oct 24, 2016 5:08 pm

enilria wrote:
That's kind of surprising. The 787 operational envelope is pretty wide, that route is not that long by 787 standards, other carriers fly to Europe with other aircraft, altitude is usually a bigger problem than heat, AND since DY does not have a bank structure they could have the departure move to a cooler time of day.

I'd say either this is an excuse to cover poor economic performance OR the 787 is a much worse performer than we thought. Isn't QR operating them in even higher temps? I don't think QR would have bought the plane if it was heavily restricted in hot temps.


a380787 wrote:
LAS is slightly high up at 665m, but it's more than compensated with a 4423m runway. Neither variant of 787 should have any issues.


Its wide, but at the altitude and that kind of temp they'd be weight limited by about 465,000 pounds assuming winds are favorable for 7L/25R. Its all downhill from there...
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a380787
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Re: Norwegian ends summer flights to Las Vegas

Mon Oct 24, 2016 5:13 pm

Boeing717200 wrote:
enilria wrote:
That's kind of surprising. The 787 operational envelope is pretty wide, that route is not that long by 787 standards, other carriers fly to Europe with other aircraft, altitude is usually a bigger problem than heat, AND since DY does not have a bank structure they could have the departure move to a cooler time of day.

I'd say either this is an excuse to cover poor economic performance OR the 787 is a much worse performer than we thought. Isn't QR operating them in even higher temps? I don't think QR would have bought the plane if it was heavily restricted in hot temps.


a380787 wrote:
LAS is slightly high up at 665m, but it's more than compensated with a 4423m runway. Neither variant of 787 should have any issues.


Its wide, but at the altitude and that kind of temp they'd be weight limited by about 465,000 pounds assuming winds are favorable for 7L/25R. Its all downhill from there...


Weight-limited is totally fine and normal. Routes routinely print cash even when departing far below max payload. And as illustrated by the very high pax load factors above (assuming the math is correct there), the issue really isn't about the pax payload at this point. Most airlines would love to have 90+% LFs for consecutive months, at the right yield.
 
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enilria
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Re: Norwegian ends summer flights to Las Vegas

Mon Oct 24, 2016 5:48 pm

Boeing717200 wrote:
enilria wrote:
That's kind of surprising. The 787 operational envelope is pretty wide, that route is not that long by 787 standards, other carriers fly to Europe with other aircraft, altitude is usually a bigger problem than heat, AND since DY does not have a bank structure they could have the departure move to a cooler time of day.

I'd say either this is an excuse to cover poor economic performance OR the 787 is a much worse performer than we thought. Isn't QR operating them in even higher temps? I don't think QR would have bought the plane if it was heavily restricted in hot temps.


a380787 wrote:
LAS is slightly high up at 665m, but it's more than compensated with a 4423m runway. Neither variant of 787 should have any issues.


Its wide, but at the altitude and that kind of temp they'd be weight limited by about 465,000 pounds assuming winds are favorable for 7L/25R. Its all downhill from there...

The altitude is 2100 feet. That's not that high. I guess this why QR never announced a start date for LAS-DOH? ;)

a380787 wrote:
Weight-limited is totally fine and normal. Routes routinely print cash even when departing far below max payload. And as illustrated by the very high pax load factors above (assuming the math is correct there), the issue really isn't about the pax payload at this point. Most airlines would love to have 90+% LFs for consecutive months, at the right yield.

So, from my numbers I think you can see they may be losing 2 or 3 LF points (maybe) to heat limits, but they'd lose far more in Winter to just weak demand. I guess a side argument would be that they can afford poorer performance in Winter when there are fewer uses for the aircraft? Still 94% full is close enough and I agree that weight restrictions are commonplace. Does DY even carry cargo?
 
jbpdx
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Re: Norwegian ends summer flights to Las Vegas

Mon Oct 24, 2016 6:00 pm

Maybe they have other summer-seasonal routes they plan to launch, probably with incentives/subsidies.
^
 
Mortyman
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Re: Norwegian ends summer flights to Las Vegas

Mon Oct 24, 2016 6:16 pm

enilria wrote:
Does DY even carry cargo?


Yes, Norwegian often carry a lot of fish, however I'm not sure when it comes to the route to Las Vegas.
 
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adamh8297
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Re: Norwegian ends summer flights to Las Vegas

Mon Oct 24, 2016 6:18 pm

jbpdx wrote:
Maybe they have other summer-seasonal routes they plan to launch, probably with incentives/subsidies.


They have a few options with the available 787's

Connect the dots with BOS (ARN/BCN/CDG)

Open FCO

Open SEA, BWI or ORD

Start OAK-EDI
Airlines flown: A3, AA, AC, AF, AM, BA, B6, CA, CO, CX, DL, EA, EL, IB, LH, MI, MQ, NH, NW, NZ, OU, PE, QF, S4, SQ, TP, UA, US, VS, WE, WN

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Boeing717200
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Re: Norwegian ends summer flights to Las Vegas

Mon Oct 24, 2016 7:04 pm

enilria wrote:
The altitude is 2100 feet. That's not that high. I guess this why QR never announced a start date for LAS-DOH? ;)


QR 787's have a 75k thrust bump for operating at high temp airports. At 2,000-feet, this would allow max takeoff weight from about 14,000-feet of runway on a 104-degree day, so they would be fine. At sea level and the same temp they'd only need 11,000-feet of runway at MTOW, so yes, elevation matters.

Not really relevant anyway, they're using a 777-300ER. They need 14,000 feet on a 104-degree day at 2,000-feet and would take a 25,000 pound payload hit which is negligible. They are more impacted by the 7000nm range penalty which will limit them to about 80k of net payload. Of course if they leave at midnight, they'd avoid peak heat. Not sure Norwegian has that option. They're all about butts in seats.
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ACDC8
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Re: Norwegian ends summer flights to Las Vegas

Mon Oct 24, 2016 8:32 pm

Just some observations in regards to the tourists and temperature posts above - while I can't say anything for Scandinavian tourists, but having been in Vegas every 3 weeks for the last year, the summer season is by far the busiest with tourists, especially the Europeans - even last week, you could see how its starting to taper off.
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enilria
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Re: Norwegian ends summer flights to Las Vegas

Mon Oct 24, 2016 10:23 pm

Boeing717200 wrote:
enilria wrote:
The altitude is 2100 feet. That's not that high. I guess this why QR never announced a start date for LAS-DOH? ;)


QR 787's have a 75k thrust bump for operating at high temp airports. At 2,000-feet, this would allow max takeoff weight from about 14,000-feet of runway on a 104-degree day, so they would be fine. At sea level and the same temp they'd only need 11,000-feet of runway at MTOW, so yes, elevation matters.

Not really relevant anyway, they're using a 777-300ER. They need 14,000 feet on a 104-degree day at 2,000-feet and would take a 25,000 pound payload hit which is negligible. They are more impacted by the 7000nm range penalty which will limit them to about 80k of net payload. Of course if they leave at midnight, they'd avoid peak heat. Not sure Norwegian has that option. They're all about butts in seats.

Interesting data. Isn't there also a wheel speed limitation on takeoff? Using that much runway usually hits it.

Again, if they averaged 94 last Summer it can't be too bad a hit. Did they divert?
 
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Ytraveller
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Re: Norwegian ends summer flights to Las Vegas

Mon Oct 24, 2016 10:28 pm

Boeing717200 wrote:
enilria wrote:
The altitude is 2100 feet. That's not that high. I guess this why QR never announced a start date for LAS-DOH? ;)


QR 787's have a 75k thrust bump for operating at high temp airports. At 2,000-feet, this would allow max takeoff weight from about 14,000-feet of runway on a 104-degree day, so they would be fine. At sea level and the same temp they'd only need 11,000-feet of runway at MTOW, so yes, elevation matters.

Not really relevant anyway, they're using a 777-300ER. They need 14,000 feet on a 104-degree day at 2,000-feet and would take a 25,000 pound payload hit which is negligible. They are more impacted by the 7000nm range penalty which will limit them to about 80k of net payload. Of course if they leave at midnight, they'd avoid peak heat. Not sure Norwegian has that option. They're all about butts in seats.

Only God knows whether QR will actually launch that route. Five months have passed and not a single update from QR. Extremely unlikely they would announce a January start date now, as AAB boasted in early June. I am no longer eagerly awaiting more news.
 
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Boeing717200
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Re: Norwegian ends summer flights to Las Vegas

Tue Oct 25, 2016 2:19 am

enilria wrote:
Boeing717200 wrote:
enilria wrote:
The altitude is 2100 feet. That's not that high. I guess this why QR never announced a start date for LAS-DOH? ;)


QR 787's have a 75k thrust bump for operating at high temp airports. At 2,000-feet, this would allow max takeoff weight from about 14,000-feet of runway on a 104-degree day, so they would be fine. At sea level and the same temp they'd only need 11,000-feet of runway at MTOW, so yes, elevation matters.

Not really relevant anyway, they're using a 777-300ER. They need 14,000 feet on a 104-degree day at 2,000-feet and would take a 25,000 pound payload hit which is negligible. They are more impacted by the 7000nm range penalty which will limit them to about 80k of net payload. Of course if they leave at midnight, they'd avoid peak heat. Not sure Norwegian has that option. They're all about butts in seats.

Interesting data. Isn't there also a wheel speed limitation on takeoff? Using that much runway usually hits it.

Again, if they averaged 94 last Summer it can't be too bad a hit. Did they divert?


Don't know much about their operation other than I'd never fly a 787-8 with a 291 seat config. That would be the worst flight of ones life. On the performance would be a tire speed issue. It just takes to long to rotate on hot days and they run out of field length. If winds favor another runway, they'd run into trouble pretty rapidly in terms of dispatch or diverts. They could solve it by ordering the planes with the thrust bump or straight up higher thrust variants, but they probably don't serve many routes where that's an issue so it may not make sense for them from a commonality perspective.
Last edited by Boeing717200 on Tue Oct 25, 2016 2:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Boeing717200
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Re: Norwegian ends summer flights to Las Vegas

Tue Oct 25, 2016 2:20 am

Ytraveller wrote:
Boeing717200 wrote:
enilria wrote:
The altitude is 2100 feet. That's not that high. I guess this why QR never announced a start date for LAS-DOH? ;)


QR 787's have a 75k thrust bump for operating at high temp airports. At 2,000-feet, this would allow max takeoff weight from about 14,000-feet of runway on a 104-degree day, so they would be fine. At sea level and the same temp they'd only need 11,000-feet of runway at MTOW, so yes, elevation matters.

Not really relevant anyway, they're using a 777-300ER. They need 14,000 feet on a 104-degree day at 2,000-feet and would take a 25,000 pound payload hit which is negligible. They are more impacted by the 7000nm range penalty which will limit them to about 80k of net payload. Of course if they leave at midnight, they'd avoid peak heat. Not sure Norwegian has that option. They're all about butts in seats.

Only God knows whether QR will actually launch that route. Five months have passed and not a single update from QR. Extremely unlikely they would announce a January start date now, as AAB boasted in early June. I am no longer eagerly awaiting more news.


Yeah, who knows. They announced it with the 777-3ER and then nada.
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crownvic
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Re: Norwegian ends summer flights to Las Vegas

Tue Oct 25, 2016 3:56 am

Vegas has the same problem they have with most international operators. Aside from a few billboard signs around the airport, most locals just do not know about what places they can go to from their home airport. This problem has existed for years as most foreign operators only market the service from the originating city and not locally in LAS. The city never promotes the international carriers because their thinking is, locals take seats away from potential inbound passengers.
 
S75752
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Re: Norwegian ends summer flights to Las Vegas

Tue Oct 25, 2016 9:23 am

enilria wrote:
J 81.1%
F 71.6%
M 87.7%
A 95.1%
M 95.3%
J 96.6%
J 94.1%
A 94.1%


This makes no sense that they would remove summer months when they have such strong loads. Sure, yields could be a part of the equation, but why would they have higher yields during the winter non-travel months anyways...
This heat explanation makes little sense. LAS may be hot, but it is not particularly high. The 787 shouldn't have issues whatsoever with LAS.

Maybe it's just a subtle way of repositioning the aircraft to boost a different summer-seasonal route?
 
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bluefltspecial
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Re: Norwegian ends summer flights to Las Vegas

Tue Oct 25, 2016 10:31 am

Boeing717200 wrote:
enilria wrote:
Boeing717200 wrote:

QR 787's have a 75k thrust bump for operating at high temp airports. At 2,000-feet, this would allow max takeoff weight from about 14,000-feet of runway on a 104-degree day, so they would be fine. At sea level and the same temp they'd only need 11,000-feet of runway at MTOW, so yes, elevation matters.

Not really relevant anyway, they're using a 777-300ER. They need 14,000 feet on a 104-degree day at 2,000-feet and would take a 25,000 pound payload hit which is negligible. They are more impacted by the 7000nm range penalty which will limit them to about 80k of net payload. Of course if they leave at midnight, they'd avoid peak heat. Not sure Norwegian has that option. They're all about butts in seats.

Interesting data. Isn't there also a wheel speed limitation on takeoff? Using that much runway usually hits it.

Again, if they averaged 94 last Summer it can't be too bad a hit. Did they divert?


Don't know much about their operation other than I'd never fly a 787-8 with a 291 seat config. That would be the worst flight of ones life. On the performance would be a tire speed issue. It just takes to long to rotate on hot days and they run out of field length. If winds favor another runway, they'd run into trouble pretty rapidly in terms of dispatch or diverts. They could solve it by ordering the planes with the thrust bump or straight up higher thrust variants, but they probably don't serve many routes where that's an issue so it may not make sense for them from a commonality perspective.


While some would be surprised, others maybe not, the seating is still more comfortable than United in pitch and comfort for the Y cabin, at least IMHO. I've done both many times and now lean toward DY when I have the option. It would seem that when United created their E+ on their aircraft their seating capacity did not change, E+ got as much as 5" of space, and all the rest of Y was pushed together. I'm pretty convinced that United is at 29" or lower in terms of space on some older aircraft and has not added slimmer seats like DY has. It should be noted, though, that seat pitch is from seat back to seat back, and does not actually focus on space at the knee. I'm 6' and while economy is never really enjoyable, I'm not miserable, I have enough space to be comfortable enough to snooze during the flight and watch TV on a decent size screen.

I have ridden in the DY Premium Cabin as well. It's great on a West Coast Europe flight for +$400 additional dollars, but I can't find the value in a 6-7 hour flight from BOS/JFK-Europe. It's basically an extra reclining domestic F seat from a US Carrier but can easily sleep in this seat on long flights. There is a rumor one of the flight attendants spoke of on my last flight that DY will be getting a new Premium seat next year.

I can only imagine if/when they order the 787-10 how many they'll cram in there!
Save a horse, ride a Fly-boy....
 
StTim
Posts: 3713
Joined: Thu Aug 08, 2013 7:39 am

Re: Norwegian ends summer flights to Las Vegas

Tue Nov 15, 2016 8:47 pm

Surely the planning group knew the climatic conditions during peak season at Las Vegas. This sounds like a very poor route planning process.
 
airbazar
Posts: 10158
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 11:12 pm

Re: Norwegian ends summer flights to Las Vegas

Tue Nov 15, 2016 11:28 pm

enilria wrote:
Assuming DY ran 100% completion, here are their loads outbound by month through the Summer:

J 81.1%
F 71.6%
M 87.7%
A 95.1%
M 95.3%
J 96.6%
J 94.1%
A 94.1%

Summer is pretty FULL, it's Winter that was not fantastic in terms of load. Yields are a question mark.

The question is, are those LF numbers based on total seats, or bookable seats after blocked seats?
The other thing to consider is that they might need to sell every seat in the Summer in order to break even for the year if Winter fares are heavily discounted.
 
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Ytraveller
Posts: 1287
Joined: Tue Jul 09, 2013 3:47 pm

Re: Norwegian ends summer flights to Las Vegas

Wed Nov 16, 2016 5:17 am

Definitely an interesting decision as I thought they were faring well at LAS. A couple weeks ago they added LAS-OSL (1x 788) and LAS-LGW (2x 789), which competes with Virgin Atlantic.
 
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Ytraveller
Posts: 1287
Joined: Tue Jul 09, 2013 3:47 pm

Re: Norwegian ends summer flights to Las Vegas

Wed Nov 16, 2016 5:19 am

 
TC957
Posts: 3809
Joined: Wed May 23, 2012 1:12 pm

Re: Norwegian ends summer flights to Las Vegas

Wed Nov 16, 2016 7:29 am

I really don't get this. QR & AI operate out of DOH & DEL and it can get to near 50C there at times.
 
Okcflyer
Posts: 658
Joined: Sat May 23, 2015 11:10 pm

Re: Norwegian ends summer flights to Las Vegas

Wed Nov 16, 2016 8:49 am

Sounds like they use the standard low-thrust engines on their 788's rather than the upprated 789 models like most other airlines are using. That or they have a certification issue at 104F and above that others are certified for. sounds like they'll have the issue sorted out by 2018.
 
jetwet1
Posts: 3221
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2007 4:42 am

Re: Norwegian ends summer flights to Las Vegas

Wed Nov 16, 2016 8:52 am

S75752 wrote:
enilria wrote:
J 81.1%
F 71.6%
M 87.7%
A 95.1%
M 95.3%
J 96.6%
J 94.1%
A 94.1%


This makes no sense that they would remove summer months when they have such strong loads. Sure, yields could be a part of the equation, but why would they have higher yields during the winter non-travel months anyways...
This heat explanation makes little sense. LAS may be hot, but it is not particularly high. The 787 shouldn't have issues whatsoever with LAS.

Maybe it's just a subtle way of repositioning the aircraft to boost a different summer-seasonal route?


The yields are fine, they get the same yield as the LAX route, they also have (or should say had) a contract with one of the big casino companies that pretty much made sure they were making money on the route, honestly, we were expecting more flights to be added, not the route to go seasonal.
 
skipness1E
Posts: 4813
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 9:18 am

Re: Norwegian ends summer flights to Las Vegas

Wed Nov 16, 2016 10:41 am

The yields are fine, they get the same yield as the LAX route, they also have (or should say had) a contract with one of the big casino companies that pretty much made sure they were making money on the route, honestly, we were expecting more flights to be added, not the route to go seasonal.

Is this an assumption or do you really have access to Norwegian's profitability data on a route by route basis?
 
TurnaroudUK
Posts: 83
Joined: Sat May 09, 2015 7:11 pm

Re: Norwegian ends summer flights to Las Vegas

Wed Nov 16, 2016 11:48 am

In one of my previous roles, I looked at the payload restrictions out of JNB for the 789 it worked out at a 12t-19t deficit depending on the time of the day so this could be a genuine problem but that JNB not LAS.

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