Crazy4Planes
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AI Plans Tel Aviv

Tue Oct 25, 2016 6:09 am

 
Nimish
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Re: AI Plans Tel Aviv

Tue Oct 25, 2016 6:33 am

Hmm - DEL-TLV should do well considering the almost non-existent direct links between the 2 countries (El Al flies to BOM if I remember right). Most pax to/from TLV have to take a circuitous route via IST or fly to AMM and take the road connection.
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T1b2d3
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Re: AI Plans Tel Aviv

Tue Oct 25, 2016 6:42 am

Would not Air India be able to offer a faster connection between India and Israel as well? Since they can overfly territory that El Al cannot?
 
dubaiamman243
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Re: AI Plans Tel Aviv

Tue Oct 25, 2016 6:56 am

T1b2d3 wrote:
Would not Air India be able to offer a faster connection between India and Israel as well? Since they can overfly territory that El Al cannot?


No. AI flights from/to TEL cannot overfly countries that does not recognize Israel as a country.
The next airline CEO :crossfingers:
 
Crazy4Planes
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Re: AI Plans Tel Aviv

Tue Oct 25, 2016 7:06 am

Nimish wrote:
Hmm - DEL-TLV should do well considering the almost non-existent direct links between the 2 countries (El Al flies to BOM if I remember right). Most pax to/from TLV have to take a circuitous route via IST or fly to AMM and take the road connection.


Direct connectivity is there, LY flies thrice weekly TLV-BOM.
 
atal17
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Re: AI Plans Tel Aviv

Tue Oct 25, 2016 8:55 am

dubaiamman243 wrote:
T1b2d3 wrote:
Would not Air India be able to offer a faster connection between India and Israel as well? Since they can overfly territory that El Al cannot?


No. AI flights from/to TEL cannot overfly countries that does not recognize Israel as a country.


Correct, so if they were to fly from DEL, they'd have to traverse through BOM, make it all the way to the Bab el-Mandab strait near Yemen and then head up the Red Sea to Israel, making the journey atleast 8 to 9hrs long.

IMO, AI should just codeshare on LY's existing services to gauge what the market response is. Even with the warming of relations between India and Israel, I think that the operating conditions are still a bit rough.
 
usflyer123
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Re: AI Plans Tel Aviv

Tue Oct 25, 2016 9:26 am

i think it wont work. LY is expensive but has its loyal flyers who would pay more, but AI would have to compete with LY and flying this route the long way( not flying over arab countries) so i think they should be more focused on IAD and look for other potential routes.
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AF022
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Re: AI Plans Tel Aviv

Tue Oct 25, 2016 8:04 pm

ET also has daily connectivity between both DEL/BOM and TLV. TK's is faster, however.
 
NichCage
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Re: AI Plans Tel Aviv

Tue Oct 25, 2016 8:11 pm

This would actually be quite welcoming to see. El Al has a horrible product on the 767-300 which operates the flights between TLV & BOM. Quite a lot of Israeli's fly TLV-IST-BOM and back on BOM-IST-TLV on Turkish Airlines becaust the product is better than El Al. While there is a market between TLV and DEL, the longer flight time (which I would assume 10-11 hours at maximum) wouldn't bring probelms if Air India manages to launch TLV and make a profit on the route.
 
NichCage
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Re: AI Plans Tel Aviv

Tue Oct 25, 2016 8:13 pm

AF022 wrote:
ET also has daily connectivity between both DEL/BOM and TLV. TK's is faster, however.


Does ET carry a large amount of TLV-DEL/BOM and BOM/DEL-TLV traffic?
 
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lesfalls
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Re: AI Plans Tel Aviv

Tue Oct 25, 2016 8:22 pm

What's the demand between DEL and TLV?
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dtw2hyd
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Re: AI Plans Tel Aviv

Tue Oct 25, 2016 11:31 pm

Aren't restrictions based on state of reg.?
 
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Channex757
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Re: AI Plans Tel Aviv

Tue Oct 25, 2016 11:59 pm

lesfalls wrote:
What's the demand between DEL and TLV?

Tech for a start. Pharmaceuticals as well. That's just two industries where India and Israel have strong links.

HAL supply aircraft with Israeli radar systems. Israel is well known for producing novel drugs and also generics, with India being a big player globally in making high quality and high volume generic drugs.

i'm sure there are lots more links that could be pointed out but those are the two most immediate ones I could point to.
 
SCQ83
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Re: AI Plans Tel Aviv

Wed Oct 26, 2016 6:48 am

I think it could work easily with Air India now trying connections to SE Asia, given the lack of options for TLV.

If things like TLV-DEL-BKK connect well, it should work at least in terms of number of passengers.
 
atal17
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Re: AI Plans Tel Aviv

Wed Oct 26, 2016 7:17 am

dtw2hyd wrote:
Aren't restrictions based on state of reg.?


I thought so too, although Hainan & Korean Air's flight path into Tel Aviv makes me believe otherwise.

https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flig ... 58#b6a407d

https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flig ... 57#b629ef0

If that is true, by that metric, SQ cannot launch SIN-TLV (surrounded by Malaysia and Indonesia) and AI will have to take a significant detour on its way to TLV too.

The one way they can circumvent is through a stopover to and from TLV, for example - SIN-XXX-TLV (XXX - ATH, LCA, IST), where SIN can use the normal airspace to XXX, and then fly from XXX on to TLV. But that would diminish their market power considerably.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: AI Plans Tel Aviv

Wed Oct 26, 2016 10:18 am

atal17 wrote:
I thought so too, although Hainan & Korean Air's flight path into Tel Aviv makes me believe otherwise.


Everyone has to avoid Syria and Iraq for now. So for Chinese and Koreans it really doesn't matter.

For AI overflying Pakistan, [Afghanistan], Iran, Saudi Arabia, Jordan is a possibility. Keep in mind when DL and UA were doing weird routes, AI didn't change much, with the exception of avoiding Iraq.
 
atal17
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Re: AI Plans Tel Aviv

Wed Oct 26, 2016 12:14 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
atal17 wrote:
I thought so too, although Hainan & Korean Air's flight path into Tel Aviv makes me believe otherwise.


Everyone has to avoid Syria and Iraq for now. So for Chinese and Koreans it really doesn't matter.

For AI overflying Pakistan, [Afghanistan], Iran, Saudi Arabia, Jordan is a possibility. Keep in mind when DL and UA were doing weird routes, AI didn't change much, with the exception of avoiding Iraq.


Notice how neither fly over Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan??? All the countries they overfly have diplomatic relations with Israel. Have a look for yourself.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: AI Plans Tel Aviv

Wed Oct 26, 2016 4:07 pm

atal17 wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
atal17 wrote:
I thought so too, although Hainan & Korean Air's flight path into Tel Aviv makes me believe otherwise.


Everyone has to avoid Syria and Iraq for now. So for Chinese and Koreans it really doesn't matter.

For AI overflying Pakistan, [Afghanistan], Iran, Saudi Arabia, Jordan is a possibility. Keep in mind when DL and UA were doing weird routes, AI didn't change much, with the exception of avoiding Iraq.


Notice how neither fly over Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan??? All the countries they overfly have diplomatic relations with Israel. Have a look for yourself.


True. But look at gcmapper. They are flying very close to shortest path. If they take southerly route over Iran they have to circumvent Himalayas.

http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=tlv-del/bom/pek/icn/hkg

CX also announced TLV, They also have to take northern detour.
 
raylee67
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Re: AI Plans Tel Aviv

Wed Oct 26, 2016 4:47 pm

Quite surprised that KE did not avoid the Armenia-Azerbaijan border though. The flight almost directly flew over the disputed region.
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yashk
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Re: AI Plans Tel Aviv

Wed Oct 26, 2016 8:48 pm

This sounds pretty strange that countries that don't have diplomatic relations with Israel won't allow other carriers to use their air space. If AI is not allowed to use for say Saudi Airspace to Israel, can India deny overfly rights to Saudi for a particular destination say Singapore or Hkg?
 
COEWR787
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Re: AI Plans Tel Aviv

Wed Oct 26, 2016 10:02 pm

yashk wrote:
This sounds pretty strange that countries that don't have diplomatic relations with Israel won't allow other carriers to use their air space. If AI is not allowed to use for say Saudi Airspace to Israel, can India deny overfly rights to Saudi for a particular destination say Singapore or Hkg?

Why would they want to do that is not clear. Afterll AI flight to TLV is not necessarily worth the bother to stir that hornets nest. It is not at all clear that it is in India's interest to insert itself in the middle of that particular mess.
 
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CanadaFair
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Re: AI Plans Tel Aviv

Fri Oct 28, 2016 2:53 pm

AI served TLV during 90s with A310 from BOM, not sure if over flight embargo was on then.

South Africa had a similar embargo by African countries but only affected SA carriers, it should have barred everyone flying there, back then SA had only European carriers, El Al, China Airlines and maybe a few immoral African ones.
 
klakzky123
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Re: AI Plans Tel Aviv

Fri Oct 28, 2016 3:08 pm

Channex757 wrote:
lesfalls wrote:
What's the demand between DEL and TLV?

Tech for a start. Pharmaceuticals as well. That's just two industries where India and Israel have strong links.

HAL supply aircraft with Israeli radar systems. Israel is well known for producing novel drugs and also generics, with India being a big player globally in making high quality and high volume generic drugs.

i'm sure there are lots more links that could be pointed out but those are the two most immediate ones I could point to.


There's a big time leisure market between the two as well and its been growing quite rapidly now that the Indian tourism authorities figured out that Israelis are coming to India.

In addition, the growing economic ties are clearly there. (pharma and defense) Both countries have very strong diplomatic ties at the moment so the relationship between the two is on solid footing. Honestly, the flight makes quite a bit of sense. Israelis generally don't have many choices to go to North India. They end up having to take Turkish Airlines. There really aren't many good options to get to India that don't involve backtracking to Europe so this flight seemingly makes some sense.
 
deltalaw
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Re: AI Plans Tel Aviv

Fri Oct 28, 2016 3:22 pm

klakzky123 wrote:
Channex757 wrote:
lesfalls wrote:
What's the demand between DEL and TLV?

Tech for a start. Pharmaceuticals as well. That's just two industries where India and Israel have strong links.

HAL supply aircraft with Israeli radar systems. Israel is well known for producing novel drugs and also generics, with India being a big player globally in making high quality and high volume generic drugs.

i'm sure there are lots more links that could be pointed out but those are the two most immediate ones I could point to.


There's a big time leisure market between the two as well and its been growing quite rapidly now that the Indian tourism authorities figured out that Israelis are coming to India.

In addition, the growing economic ties are clearly there. (pharma and defense) Both countries have very strong diplomatic ties at the moment so the relationship between the two is on solid footing. Honestly, the flight makes quite a bit of sense. Israelis generally don't have many choices to go to North India. They end up having to take Turkish Airlines. There really aren't many good options to get to India that don't involve backtracking to Europe so this flight seemingly makes some sense.




Also, diamonds. Israel is a major player in the diamond industry and India has jumped into diamond in a big way.
 
upwardfacing
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Re: AI Plans Tel Aviv

Sun May 07, 2017 11:46 pm

Overflight rights remain a barrier to launch (was planned for May 16):

http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/eco ... 685046.ece

Not surprising, though historically the Israel authorities also opposed such a routing.

Perhaps this is why LH does nicely indeed in the DEL-TLV market and vice versa, particularly in the business cabin. Though TK, perhaps ET as well, very likely has a larger share of the market.
 
NichCage
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Re: AI Plans Tel Aviv

Mon May 08, 2017 12:19 am

upwardfacing wrote:
Overflight rights remain a barrier to launch (was planned for May 16):

http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/eco ... 685046.ece

Not surprising, though historically the Israel authorities also opposed such a routing.

Perhaps this is why LH does nicely indeed in the DEL-TLV market and vice versa, particularly in the business cabin. Though TK, perhaps ET as well, very likely has a larger share of the market.


One of the things that confuses me is why AI would ask airspace permission from the UAE, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, and Afghanistan. Those countries would never grant it for an flight to Israel. Why don't they fly down South to the Red Sea and from there fly up to Israel?
 
vikramv1
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Re: AI Plans Tel Aviv

Mon May 08, 2017 6:25 am

Because that would be the direct route from DEL-TLV. Flying soutbound and up the persian gulf would add huge amounts of time and may render the route economically infeasible.
 
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Spiderguy252
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Re: AI Plans Tel Aviv

Mon May 08, 2017 6:41 am

Sadly there are too many barriers for this flight to succeed.

I don't see it happening personally.
Vahroone
 
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CrimsonNL
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Re: AI Plans Tel Aviv

Mon May 08, 2017 9:08 am

lesfalls wrote:
What's the demand between DEL and TLV?


I would have never imagined it was big but I've seen quite some pax flying TLV-AMS-DEL/BOM on an LY/9W ticket. Talk about a detour!

Martijn
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dtw2hyd
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Re: AI Plans Tel Aviv

Mon May 08, 2017 12:34 pm

NichCage wrote:
One of the things that confuses me is why AI would ask airspace permission from the UAE, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, and Afghanistan. Those countries would never grant it for an flight to Israel. Why don't they fly down South to the Red Sea and from there fly up to Israel?


India is considered a friend of all ME countries, unless political equation changed because of current Indian administration, getting overfly routes from other ME nations is not out of norm. Not long ago AI evacuated from Yemen by getting approvals from Saudi and Iran(both at proxy war) plus several other countries.
 
anshabhi
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Re: AI Plans Tel Aviv

Mon May 08, 2017 1:06 pm

I think it was well known that TLV will be announced during Modi's visit to Israel. The flight will be delayed as long as his trip is delayed.
 
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CanadaFair
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Re: AI Plans Tel Aviv

Mon May 08, 2017 1:35 pm

Royal Jordanian was a good way to connect to TLV from DEL, why didnt that work?
 
c933103
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Re: AI Plans Tel Aviv

Mon May 08, 2017 4:17 pm

atal17 wrote:
dubaiamman243 wrote:
T1b2d3 wrote:
Would not Air India be able to offer a faster connection between India and Israel as well? Since they can overfly territory that El Al cannot?


No. AI flights from/to TEL cannot overfly countries that does not recognize Israel as a country.


Correct, so if they were to fly from DEL, they'd have to traverse through BOM, make it all the way to the Bab el-Mandab strait near Yemen and then head up the Red Sea to Israel, making the journey atleast 8 to 9hrs long.

IMO, AI should just codeshare on LY's existing services to gauge what the market response is. Even with the warming of relations between India and Israel, I think that the operating conditions are still a bit rough.

rough plot... http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=DEL-TLV,DE ... EL-JIB-TLV
seems like it would be shorter for them to fly north than fly south
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CanadaFair
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Re: AI Plans Tel Aviv

Mon May 08, 2017 4:54 pm

Northern is the only way and thats whar one would imagine them taking, why were they even considering the western route? I think foreign airlines should be exempted from the embargo.

AI code share on LY from BOM also makes better sense.
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: AI Plans Tel Aviv

Mon May 08, 2017 5:25 pm

AI should make this an extension to Mumbai as well to perhaps head off Jet Airways. I would expect that this would be via a 787-8. Also, given tech markets, would Tel Aviv to Bangalore be viable twice weekly?
 
upwardfacing
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Re: AI Plans Tel Aviv

Tue May 09, 2017 6:41 am

CrimsonNL wrote:
lesfalls wrote:
What's the demand between DEL and TLV?


I would have never imagined it was big but I've seen quite some pax flying TLV-AMS-DEL/BOM on an LY/9W ticket. Talk about a detour!

Martijn


The political geography is such that European transits work best. Even a northern routing that bypasses countries hostile to Israel is not possible because of Chinese airspace restrictions over Xinjiang, plus the the additional complexity of flying over high elevation regions. For CX, KE, HU this isn't a problem as the routings are more northerly.

Now that all the European carriers only offer narrowbody cramped seating to TLV, for J class pax Aeroflot arguably offers the fastest and most comfortable journey from DEL--widebody jets the whole way plus a good quality though underrated product.
 
SR100
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Re: AI Plans Tel Aviv

Tue May 09, 2017 8:32 am

[Now that all the European carriers only offer narrowbody cramped seating to TLV, for J class pax Aeroflot arguably offers the fastest and most comfortable journey from DEL]

-> WRONG - SU is NOT the only European airline offering wide-body aircrafts.

Other European carriers offering DAILY wide-body service to TLV are
- LX with 2 x daily 333
- BA with 2 x daily 789 and 777
- TK with 2 x daily 333 and 77W, sometimes even more among their daily 8 flights from IST

Apart from the already mentioned TK, the other convenient connection to DEL is LX through ZRH. As a frequent flyer between ZRH and TLV on LX, I often see DEL mentioned on the IFE screens before landing at ZRH, when LX informs all connecting passengers on board about the status and gate of their onwards flights.
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tlvflyguy
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Re: AI Plans Tel Aviv

Tue May 09, 2017 8:44 am

Also IB with A333 3x weekly, though that is an awful transit option for DEL.
 
nadavatar64
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Re: AI Plans Tel Aviv

Tue May 09, 2017 9:00 am

Whats up with that flight, Was it cancelled? TLV doesent even show up on AI's website...
 
nadavatar64
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Re: AI Plans Tel Aviv

Tue May 09, 2017 9:02 am

tlvflyguy wrote:
Also IB with A333 3x weekly, though that is an awful transit option for DEL.


Also Air Europa starts flying with its 787s to TLV.
 
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Spiderguy252
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Re: AI Plans Tel Aviv

Tue May 09, 2017 9:13 am

nadavatar64 wrote:
Whats up with that flight, Was it cancelled? TLV doesent even show up on AI's website...


Don't entertain too much hopes for TLV happening, there are too many hurdles enroute for it to happen.

With that said, the AI CMD did mention it once again overnight, but didn't specify a timeline.
Vahroone
 
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CanadaFair
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Re: AI Plans Tel Aviv

Tue May 09, 2017 10:13 pm

upwardfacing wrote:

The political geography is such that European transits work best. Even a northern routing that bypasses countries hostile to Israel is not possible because of Chinese airspace restrictions over Xinjiang, plus the the additional complexity of flying over high elevation regions. For CX, KE, HU this isn't a problem as the routings are more northerly..


All those use northern Xinjiang on flights to from TLV, so does El Al, there are no elevation related route changes unless weather causes them to change course sometimes.

India might have Tibet airspace restrictions I guess, but not Xinjiang, had Tibet issue not existed AI could have flown through there.and Xinjiang
 
upwardfacing
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Re: AI Plans Tel Aviv

Wed May 10, 2017 2:47 am

CanadaFair wrote:
All those use northern Xinjiang on flights to from TLV, so does El Al, there are no elevation related route changes unless weather causes them to change course sometimes.

India might have Tibet airspace restrictions I guess, but not Xinjiang, had Tibet issue not existed AI could have flown through there.and Xinjiang


See post # 37 here:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=605673&p=9647711&hilit=china#p9647711
 
upwardfacing
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Re: AI Plans Tel Aviv

Wed May 10, 2017 2:52 am

@SR100

Thanks: I stand corrected.
 
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CanadaFair
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Re: AI Plans Tel Aviv

Wed May 10, 2017 4:16 pm

upwardfacing wrote:
CanadaFair wrote:
All those use northern Xinjiang on flights to from TLV, so does El Al, there are no elevation related route changes unless weather causes them to change course sometimes.

India might have Tibet airspace restrictions I guess, but not Xinjiang, had Tibet issue not existed AI could have flown through there.and Xinjiang


See post # 37 here:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=605673&p=9647711&hilit=china#p9647711


Cant El Al or Arkia do DEL instead and AI codeshare?

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