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yyztpa
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Republic CSeries order change

Thu Oct 27, 2016 12:16 am

Filed with SEC https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data ... rclaim.htm
Evidently this order has not yet been rejected under CH11.

On October 20, 2016, Republic Airways Holdings Inc. (the "Company," or "we," or "us"), along with Republic Airline Inc. ("Republic") (a wholly-owned subsidiary of the Company), and Bombardier Inc. ("Bombardier"), Learjet, Inc., and C Series Aircraft Limited Partnership (collectively, the "Bombardier Parties") entered into Contract Change Order No. 3 (the "Amendment") to amend the original aircraft purchase agreement with Bombardier, dated February 25, 2010 (the "Purchase Agreement"), for the delivery of 40 Bombardier CS300 Series aircraft with the option to purchase up to an additional 40 aircraft. The Amendment provided for deferral of (1) scheduled aircraft payments to Bombardier and (2) scheduled aircraft deliveries, as previously scheduled under the Purchase Agreement.
In addition, the Company and the Bombardier Parties reached a settlement agreement (the "Settlement") to provide for a general unsecured claim in the amount of $1.5 million and an administrative claim of $0.7 million for the satisfaction of certain claims asserted against the Company and Republic.
The Company filed a motion in the United States Bankruptcy Court for the Southern District of New York (the "Bankruptcy Court") to seek approval for the Settlement and the Amendment. The motion is scheduled to be heard before the Bankruptcy Court on November 17, 2016. The agreements will become effective following issuance of the approval order by the Bankruptcy Court.
 
jbs2886
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Re: Republic CSeries order change

Thu Oct 27, 2016 12:20 am

yyztpa wrote:
Filed with SEC https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data ... rclaim.htm
Evidently this order has not yet been rejected under CH11.

On October 20, 2016, Republic Airways Holdings Inc. (the "Company," or "we," or "us"), along with Republic Airline Inc. ("Republic") (a wholly-owned subsidiary of the Company), and Bombardier Inc. ("Bombardier"), Learjet, Inc., and C Series Aircraft Limited Partnership (collectively, the "Bombardier Parties") entered into Contract Change Order No. 3 (the "Amendment") to amend the original aircraft purchase agreement with Bombardier, dated February 25, 2010 (the "Purchase Agreement"), for the delivery of 40 Bombardier CS300 Series aircraft with the option to purchase up to an additional 40 aircraft. The Amendment provided for deferral of (1) scheduled aircraft payments to Bombardier and (2) scheduled aircraft deliveries, as previously scheduled under the Purchase Agreement.
In addition, the Company and the Bombardier Parties reached a settlement agreement (the "Settlement") to provide for a general unsecured claim in the amount of $1.5 million and an administrative claim of $0.7 million for the satisfaction of certain claims asserted against the Company and Republic.
The Company filed a motion in the United States Bankruptcy Court for the Southern District of New York (the "Bankruptcy Court") to seek approval for the Settlement and the Amendment. The motion is scheduled to be heard before the Bankruptcy Court on November 17, 2016. The agreements will become effective following issuance of the approval order by the Bankruptcy Court.


Wow, interesting. What is their plan?!
 
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jnev3289
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Re: Republic CSeries order change

Thu Oct 27, 2016 12:28 am

jbs2886 wrote:
yyztpa wrote:
Filed with SEC https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data ... rclaim.htm
Evidently this order has not yet been rejected under CH11.

On October 20, 2016, Republic Airways Holdings Inc. (the "Company," or "we," or "us"), along with Republic Airline Inc. ("Republic") (a wholly-owned subsidiary of the Company), and Bombardier Inc. ("Bombardier"), Learjet, Inc., and C Series Aircraft Limited Partnership (collectively, the "Bombardier Parties") entered into Contract Change Order No. 3 (the "Amendment") to amend the original aircraft purchase agreement with Bombardier, dated February 25, 2010 (the "Purchase Agreement"), for the delivery of 40 Bombardier CS300 Series aircraft with the option to purchase up to an additional 40 aircraft. The Amendment provided for deferral of (1) scheduled aircraft payments to Bombardier and (2) scheduled aircraft deliveries, as previously scheduled under the Purchase Agreement.
In addition, the Company and the Bombardier Parties reached a settlement agreement (the "Settlement") to provide for a general unsecured claim in the amount of $1.5 million and an administrative claim of $0.7 million for the satisfaction of certain claims asserted against the Company and Republic.
The Company filed a motion in the United States Bankruptcy Court for the Southern District of New York (the "Bankruptcy Court") to seek approval for the Settlement and the Amendment. The motion is scheduled to be heard before the Bankruptcy Court on November 17, 2016. The agreements will become effective following issuance of the approval order by the Bankruptcy Court.


Wow, interesting. What is their plan?!


File for bankruptcy and get out of the deliveries
 
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LAXintl
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Re: Republic CSeries order change

Thu Oct 27, 2016 12:36 am

Pending court approval on November 17th, RJET estate basically settles a ~$75mil claim from BBD for about $2.2mil. Claim related to both Q400 and C-series agreements.

Much of the details of the deal are under seal, though there is no indication RJET would ever actually take delivery of any aircraft under the restructured purchase agreement. Matter of fact BBD even consents waiving RJET of future performance under the agreement.
From my reading of the documents, basically BBD has done whatever it takes not to show the order cancelled and simply come up with delivery dates far into the future in order to keep it on the books.
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jbs2886
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Re: Republic CSeries order change

Thu Oct 27, 2016 12:51 am

jnev3289 wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:
yyztpa wrote:
Filed with SEC https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data ... rclaim.htm
Evidently this order has not yet been rejected under CH11.

On October 20, 2016, Republic Airways Holdings Inc. (the "Company," or "we," or "us"), along with Republic Airline Inc. ("Republic") (a wholly-owned subsidiary of the Company), and Bombardier Inc. ("Bombardier"), Learjet, Inc., and C Series Aircraft Limited Partnership (collectively, the "Bombardier Parties") entered into Contract Change Order No. 3 (the "Amendment") to amend the original aircraft purchase agreement with Bombardier, dated February 25, 2010 (the "Purchase Agreement"), for the delivery of 40 Bombardier CS300 Series aircraft with the option to purchase up to an additional 40 aircraft. The Amendment provided for deferral of (1) scheduled aircraft payments to Bombardier and (2) scheduled aircraft deliveries, as previously scheduled under the Purchase Agreement.
In addition, the Company and the Bombardier Parties reached a settlement agreement (the "Settlement") to provide for a general unsecured claim in the amount of $1.5 million and an administrative claim of $0.7 million for the satisfaction of certain claims asserted against the Company and Republic.
The Company filed a motion in the United States Bankruptcy Court for the Southern District of New York (the "Bankruptcy Court") to seek approval for the Settlement and the Amendment. The motion is scheduled to be heard before the Bankruptcy Court on November 17, 2016. The agreements will become effective following issuance of the approval order by the Bankruptcy Court.


Wow, interesting. What is their plan?!


File for bankruptcy and get out of the deliveries


That's what they've done. If they didn't want the aircraft, they could just have the contract cancelled by the BK court. Because they haven't, they have to have some plan regardless of whether they intend to take deliveries.
 
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jnev3289
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Re: Republic CSeries order change

Thu Oct 27, 2016 12:57 am

Theres about a 0% chance they do anything with those planes. What on earth could they possibly do with them? The bankruptcy was a clear ploy to avoid anything to do with them
 
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LAXintl
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Re: Republic CSeries order change

Thu Oct 27, 2016 1:03 am

jbs2886 wrote:
That's what they've done. If they didn't want the aircraft, they could just have the contract cancelled by the BK court. Because they haven't, they have to have some plan regardless of whether they intend to take deliveries.


In their court filing RJET states by rejecting the purchase agreement entirely would have resulted in a "significant allowed claim" by BBD beyond the existing $70+mil against the estate.
While by instead entering into a consensual revised agreement, the company would be only liable for a tiny fraction of claims, and results in much more favorable outcome for the estate.
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n7190jr
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Re: Republic CSeries order change

Thu Oct 27, 2016 1:05 am

$5 says that the give the order to Delta.
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F9Animal
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Re: Republic CSeries order change

Thu Oct 27, 2016 1:54 am

Maybe they are dragging their feet, and might consider the plane still? Perhaps one of their contracts might be asking for a larger plane in the future? Pending negotiations with a pilots contract. I personally would have loved to have seen the C Series in Frontier colors. Still kind of bummed it never happened
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iamlucky13
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Re: Republic CSeries order change

Thu Oct 27, 2016 5:10 am

n7190jr wrote:
$5 says that the give the order to Delta.


Probably not. Delta almost certainly received significantly better pricing than Republic and would therefore have no reason to buy out Republic's terms.

LAXintl's theory is intriguiging, but seems unduly generous on Bombardier's part (if I'm understanding LAXintl right). Is keeping 40 orders that pretty much everyone agrees won't be delivered on the books worth forfeiting any claim to cancellation fees? Or is Republic in worse shape than I thought, such that the settlement is actually a reasonable, safe play for Bombardier?
 
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Re: Republic CSeries order change

Thu Oct 27, 2016 6:48 am

jnev3289 wrote:
Theres about a 0% chance they do anything with those planes. What on earth could they possibly do with them? The bankruptcy was a clear ploy to avoid anything to do with them


Let's review.

Yes, they filed for bankruptcy. Yes, they could ask the court to reject the contract between Republic and BBD.

But so far, they haven't. And TBH, it was the first thing everyone thought they would do. So far, they plan to take delivery of the aircraft.

What are the odds that DL told them to keep the order on the books when they provided DIP financing to RJET? DL knew they were kicking the tires on the CS100, and later placed an order. Is RJET holding the slots for the C-Series, only to sell them to DL upon delivery? Payback for the DIP financing, and maybe a contract extension on the 170/175 flying?

If so, the deal BBD cut to get RJET to sign must have been pretty good, or RJET could likely just walk away.
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Re: Republic CSeries order change

Thu Oct 27, 2016 9:14 am

DL involvement is a certainty.

My guess is the deal is this:

Keep the orders on the books, good for BBD.

Eliminate cancellation fees, good for RJET.

If at some point there's actually a profit to be made reselling the deliveries, RJET gets a benefit---although it's hard to construct this scenario. Nevertheless, even unlikely there is no risk to it. Why not?
 
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Revelation
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Re: Republic CSeries order change

Thu Oct 27, 2016 12:05 pm

How do we know that RJET even has the right to sell its slots? I thought the industry cleaned up a lot of this stuff after Ryanair took a bunch of Boeing deliveries and immediately resold them at a profit to other airlines.
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Re: Republic CSeries order change

Thu Oct 27, 2016 12:12 pm

F9Animal wrote:
Perhaps one of their contracts might be asking for a larger plane in the future? Pending negotiations with a pilots contract.


I think there's probably a zero percent chance (maybe lower?) that a major US airline's pilots union would agree to an amendment of the scope clause to allow the CSeries to be flown by a regional partner.
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intotheair
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Re: Republic CSeries order change

Thu Oct 27, 2016 12:14 pm

What's the likelihood of the CS order being converted into a bunch of 76-seat CRJs? On paper, this seems like it could be a compromise — BBD would keep production lines running, and Republic would get a plane that they could actually fly for the majors under the scope clause.
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MIflyer12
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Re: Republic CSeries order change

Thu Oct 27, 2016 12:15 pm

LAXintl wrote:
From my reading of the documents, basically BBD has done whatever it takes not to show the order cancelled and simply come up with delivery dates far into the future in order to keep it on the books.


It may be a disappointment that the bankruptcy court has supported this game but it's RJET's Ch 11 process, not BBD's.
 
INFINITI329
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Re: Republic CSeries order change

Thu Oct 27, 2016 3:09 pm

intotheair wrote:
What's the likelihood of the CS order being converted into a bunch of 76-seat CRJs? On paper, this seems like it could be a compromise — BBD would keep production lines running, and Republic would get a plane that they could actually fly for the majors under the scope clause.


Absolutely 0. RJET is an all embraer operation
 
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rangercarp
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Re: Republic CSeries order change

Thu Oct 27, 2016 3:13 pm

INFINITI329 wrote:
intotheair wrote:
What's the likelihood of the CS order being converted into a bunch of 76-seat CRJs? On paper, this seems like it could be a compromise — BBD would keep production lines running, and Republic would get a plane that they could actually fly for the majors under the scope clause.


Absolutely 0. RJET is an all embraer operation

For now...
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Quantos
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Re: Republic CSeries order change

Thu Oct 27, 2016 3:43 pm

I agree with others that this looks a lot like what Republic is doing is simply holding slots. There's still a good deal of uncertainty concerning how well the C Series will do long term, and it's very early after EIS (only 3 CS100 in service so far and no CS300 yet), but so far things seem to be going well for the planes in service. If (and this is pure speculation, of course) things pick up terms of order for the C Series in 2017, those Republic slots may become valuable to the point where actually selling the slots (or the aircraft after delivery) would make sense to Republic. Is DL already trying to do this, or have they actually already done so and this filing is the result of that? Possible, but I guess we'll only know when production gets to the Republic slots.
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Re: Republic CSeries order change

Thu Oct 27, 2016 4:30 pm

I know this is a left field theory but is RJET thinking they may be able to lease out these frames?
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Republic CSeries order change

Thu Oct 27, 2016 4:51 pm

Italianflyer wrote:
I know this is a left field theory but is RJET thinking they may be able to lease out these frames?


The big leasing companies have economies of scale in acquisition, and deep client lists. RJET isn't going to compete on low cost of capital - not in Ch 11 nor a recent departure from Ch 11. Do we think delivery slots have value? I don't see how carriers are desperate for C Series - there are lots of available alternatives new and used, as we see again and again.
 
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Re: Republic CSeries order change

Thu Oct 27, 2016 4:53 pm

n7190jr wrote:
$5 says that the give the order to Delta.

That's my guess. Quick way to get -300 slots.
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floridaflyboy
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Re: Republic CSeries order change

Thu Oct 27, 2016 4:59 pm

jnev3289 wrote:
Theres about a 0% chance they do anything with those planes. What on earth could they possibly do with them? The bankruptcy was a clear ploy to avoid anything to do with them


Sell them? AirTran used to do exactly that. Purchased aircraft were simply sold as they were under assembly or even prior to.

And no, the bankruptcy was not a "ploy to avoid anything to do with them." Although that might be a perk, they are not asking to actually cancel the order. The bankruptcy is about shedding ERJ-140/145/Q400 aircraft that they weren't flying, about merging S5 and YX into a single carrier, and about reaching more lucrative deals with DL/AA/UA to pay for the expensive pilot contract they signed last year.
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Re: Republic CSeries order change

Thu Oct 27, 2016 5:02 pm

Revelation wrote:
How do we know that RJET even has the right to sell its slots? I thought the industry cleaned up a lot of this stuff after Ryanair took a bunch of Boeing deliveries and immediately resold them at a profit to other airlines.


So don't sell the slots. Sell the aircraft once they're your property.
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Re: Republic CSeries order change

Thu Oct 27, 2016 5:04 pm

Italianflyer wrote:
I know this is a left field theory but is RJET thinking they may be able to lease out these frames?


The RAH pilot contract specifically prohibits them from leasing out RAH-owned aircraft to a U.S. carrier, so they would have to be leased outside the country.
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DiamondFlyer
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Re: Republic CSeries order change

Thu Oct 27, 2016 5:09 pm

intotheair wrote:
What's the likelihood of the CS order being converted into a bunch of 76-seat CRJs? On paper, this seems like it could be a compromise — BBD would keep production lines running, and Republic would get a plane that they could actually fly for the majors under the scope clause.


For who? United is dumping CRJ's for ERJ-175s as quick as they can. American and Delta both have owned CRJ operators that they would certainly put airplanes at before contracting it out. The percentage of contracted out regional flying has reached it's peak, it's going to come more and more back in house, to the carriers owned by the majors, simply as a path to keep the flying staffed by offering some sort of carrot to mainline.
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MIflyer12
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Re: Republic CSeries order change

Thu Oct 27, 2016 5:13 pm

DiamondFlyer wrote:
For who? United is dumping CRJ's for ERJ-175s as quick as they can. American and Delta both have owned CRJ operators that they would certainly put airplanes at before contracting it out. The percentage of contracted out regional flying has reached it's peak, it's going to come more and more back in house, to the carriers owned by the majors, simply as a path to keep the flying staffed by offering some sort of carrot to mainline.


IMHO, regional flying won't go away entirely for AA/DL/UA/AS, nor will they do it exclusively with owned carriers. They will continue to work with outside parties - to fuel the whipsaw.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Republic CSeries order change

Thu Oct 27, 2016 5:26 pm

floridaflyboy wrote:
Revelation wrote:
How do we know that RJET even has the right to sell its slots? I thought the industry cleaned up a lot of this stuff after Ryanair took a bunch of Boeing deliveries and immediately resold them at a profit to other airlines.


So don't sell the slots. Sell the aircraft once they're your property.


That's the exact situation many contracts forbid. Sure, it's your property so you can sell it, but then the vendor can sue you for breach of contract.
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DiamondFlyer
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Re: Republic CSeries order change

Thu Oct 27, 2016 5:29 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
IMHO, regional flying won't go away entirely for AA/DL/UA/AS, nor will they do it exclusively with owned carriers. They will continue to work with outside parties - to fuel the whipsaw.


What whipsaw? The only reason it worked in the past was because there was a number of pilots not employed that wanted to be. Now, you can't even staff what needs to be staffed. Places like PSA, Piedmont, Envoy and Endeavor will continue to grow because their mainline owners can throw money at the problem quicker there, as places like GoJet, Air Wisconsin and Mesa struggle to staff the planes they have.

Yes, contracted regional partners will continue to exist, but at a smaller percentage going forward than they did in the past. Look at Delta, if they wanted to replace all the S5 E145 flying as cheap as they could have, they would have farmed out the flying. Rather than doing that, they brought it to their owned carrier by offering more money than any other regional at the time, certainly not the cheapest way to do it. American is now doing the same thing in LGA with flying, sending Envoy over with 145's to replace non-owned carriers like Air Wisconsin.
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alasizon
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Re: Republic CSeries order change

Thu Oct 27, 2016 7:46 pm

intotheair wrote:
What's the likelihood of the CS order being converted into a bunch of 76-seat CRJs? On paper, this seems like it could be a compromise — BBD would keep production lines running, and Republic would get a plane that they could actually fly for the majors under the scope clause.


AA is the only carrier adding large CRJs, and at that they are with Skywest and PSA. Since there are no real additional E175 slots available short term, Republic would have to sell the order to someone else since I can't see them wanting to add CRJs after finally simplifying themselves to an EJet operation.

I'm part of the group that could see these slots being sold to DL down the line. That being said, personally I would love to see them get converted into additional Q orders and find a home with someone else (since YX is not going back into the Q market) because the Q could serve a lot of markets in the US that jets can't either profitably or due to operational restrictions.
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intotheair
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Re: Republic CSeries order change

Thu Oct 27, 2016 7:58 pm

alasizon wrote:
intotheair wrote:
What's the likelihood of the CS order being converted into a bunch of 76-seat CRJs? On paper, this seems like it could be a compromise — BBD would keep production lines running, and Republic would get a plane that they could actually fly for the majors under the scope clause.


AA is the only carrier adding large CRJs, and at that they are with Skywest and PSA. Since there are no real additional E175 slots available short term, Republic would have to sell the order to someone else since I can't see them wanting to add CRJs after finally simplifying themselves to an EJet operation.

I'm part of the group that could see these slots being sold to DL down the line. That being said, personally I would love to see them get converted into additional Q orders and find a home with someone else (since YX is not going back into the Q market) because the Q could serve a lot of markets in the US that jets can't either profitably or due to operational restrictions.


Good points. But who's adding Qs to their fleets? Republic already got rid of all their Qs for UAX during bankruptcy. I don't think anyone in the US is looking to expand prop ops. Only QX has taken delivery of a new Q400 in the US recent years, and QX looks poised to gradually become a jet operation over time.
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alasizon
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Re: Republic CSeries order change

Thu Oct 27, 2016 8:11 pm

intotheair wrote:
alasizon wrote:
intotheair wrote:
What's the likelihood of the CS order being converted into a bunch of 76-seat CRJs? On paper, this seems like it could be a compromise — BBD would keep production lines running, and Republic would get a plane that they could actually fly for the majors under the scope clause.


AA is the only carrier adding large CRJs, and at that they are with Skywest and PSA. Since there are no real additional E175 slots available short term, Republic would have to sell the order to someone else since I can't see them wanting to add CRJs after finally simplifying themselves to an EJet operation.

I'm part of the group that could see these slots being sold to DL down the line. That being said, personally I would love to see them get converted into additional Q orders and find a home with someone else (since YX is not going back into the Q market) because the Q could serve a lot of markets in the US that jets can't either profitably or due to operational restrictions.


Good points. But who's adding Qs to their fleets? Republic already got rid of all their Qs for UAX during bankruptcy. I don't think anyone in the US is looking to expand prop ops. Only QX has taken delivery of a new Q400 in the US recent years, and QX looks poised to gradually become a jet operation over time.


Nobody is currently adding them, doesn't mean that somebody shouldn't.
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cosyr
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Re: Republic CSeries order change

Thu Oct 27, 2016 8:35 pm

Everyone seems positive that Delta is related to this, but we just found out that Spirit is considering the C Series. Are they serious? I don't know, but they could be involved with Republic, trying to cut a really good deal after bankruptcy.
 
grbauc
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Re: Republic CSeries order change

Thu Oct 27, 2016 8:50 pm

LAXintl wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:
That's what they've done. If they didn't want the aircraft, they could just have the contract cancelled by the BK court. Because they haven't, they have to have some plan regardless of whether they intend to take deliveries.


In their court filing RJET states by rejecting the purchase agreement entirely would have resulted in a "significant allowed claim" by BBD beyond the existing $70+mil against the estate.
While by instead entering into a consensual revised agreement, the company would be only liable for a tiny fraction of claims, and results in much more favorable outcome for the estate.


That was my take on it also..
 
alasizon
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Re: Republic CSeries order change

Thu Oct 27, 2016 8:56 pm

cosyr wrote:
Everyone seems positive that Delta is related to this, but we just found out that Spirit is considering the C Series. Are they serious? I don't know, but they could be involved with Republic, trying to cut a really good deal after bankruptcy.


I have no idea what Spirit's pilot contract looks like, but could Spirit even possibly enter into a regional feed contract with Republic and have Republic fly these aircraft? Could be interesting to see that happen.
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kitplane01
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Re: Republic CSeries order change

Thu Oct 27, 2016 11:14 pm

enilria wrote:
Keep the orders on the books, good for BBD.


I don't understand why BBD would think keeping the order on the books is good for BBD. No one with enough money to buy C-series aircraft thinks Republic will take the planes. No one who runs a large mutual fund that invests in BBD thinks Republic will take the planes.

So who, among those with enough money to matter, is fooled?
 
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mercure1
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Re: Republic CSeries order change

Thu Oct 27, 2016 11:39 pm

kitplane01 wrote:
enilria wrote:
Keep the orders on the books, good for BBD.


I don't understand why BBD would think keeping the order on the books is good for BBD. No one with enough money to buy C-series aircraft thinks Republic will take the planes. No one who runs a large mutual fund that invests in BBD thinks Republic will take the planes.

So who, among those with enough money to matter, is fooled?


Same reason Airbus keeps dead A380 orders on the books?

Whether for PR reasons, or some internal accounting it seems to be a thing done by manufacturers
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intotheair
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Re: Republic CSeries order change

Thu Oct 27, 2016 11:42 pm

alasizon wrote:
cosyr wrote:
Everyone seems positive that Delta is related to this, but we just found out that Spirit is considering the C Series. Are they serious? I don't know, but they could be involved with Republic, trying to cut a really good deal after bankruptcy.


I have no idea what Spirit's pilot contract looks like, but could Spirit even possibly enter into a regional feed contract with Republic and have Republic fly these aircraft? Could be interesting to see that happen.


It's up to Spirit's scope, which I would guess probably doesn't allow for subcontracting, or if it does, it probably matches the majors.

But did anyone ever think Republic was going to actually operate the CSeries? I was always under the impression that Republic ordered them for Frontier, though looking at the original announcement from six years ago just now, there's no reference to Frontier. This order always felt like a vestige of Republic's failed attempt at doing branded flying. And of course, Republic flying the CS for UA/DL/AA is a non-starter.

http://us.bombardier.com/us/press_release_25022010.htm
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flightsimer
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Re: Republic CSeries order change

Fri Oct 28, 2016 12:21 am

alasizon wrote:
cosyr wrote:
Everyone seems positive that Delta is related to this, but we just found out that Spirit is considering the C Series. Are they serious? I don't know, but they could be involved with Republic, trying to cut a really good deal after bankruptcy.


I have no idea what Spirit's pilot contract looks like, but could Spirit even possibly enter into a regional feed contract with Republic and have Republic fly these aircraft? Could be interesting to see that happen.

No, our contract with Delta prohibits us from flying anything over 76 seats for another carrier on the same certificate. That is why all of the Delta flying is on Shuttle America certificate because American has 80 seat E175s operating on the Republic certificate currently. However, with the American deal now finalized, those 80 seat E175's will be reconfigured to 76 seat configuration that all of the newer deliveries were delivered with and they can finally merge the certificates together at the end of the year.

The only way Republic could operate the CS300 is with a secondary certificate. Alaska Airlines does not have any scope clause at all, so they could be a possibility if they wanted a plane in that size to compete head to head with Delta out of the SEA hub.
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flightsimer
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Re: Republic CSeries order change

Fri Oct 28, 2016 12:25 am

intotheair wrote:
alasizon wrote:
cosyr wrote:
Everyone seems positive that Delta is related to this, but we just found out that Spirit is considering the C Series. Are they serious? I don't know, but they could be involved with Republic, trying to cut a really good deal after bankruptcy.


I have no idea what Spirit's pilot contract looks like, but could Spirit even possibly enter into a regional feed contract with Republic and have Republic fly these aircraft? Could be interesting to see that happen.


It's up to Spirit's scope, which I would guess probably doesn't allow for subcontracting, or if it does, it probably matches the majors.

But did anyone ever think Republic was going to actually operate the CSeries? I was always under the impression that Republic ordered them for Frontier, though looking at the original announcement from six years ago just now, there's no reference to Frontier. This order always felt like a vestige of Republic's failed attempt at doing branded flying. And of course, Republic flying the CS for UA/DL/AA is a non-starter.

http://us.bombardier.com/us/press_release_25022010.htm

They were ordered for Frontier by the holding company, but the new owners of Frontier did not want them so since the order was not directly signed by Frontier, they were not a part of the sale.
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alasizon
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Re: Republic CSeries order change

Fri Oct 28, 2016 12:28 am

flightsimer wrote:
alasizon wrote:
I have no idea what Spirit's pilot contract looks like, but could Spirit even possibly enter into a regional feed contract with Republic and have Republic fly these aircraft? Could be interesting to see that happen.

No, our contract with Delta prohibits us from flying anything over 76 seats for another carrier on the same certificate. That is why all of the Delta flying is on Shuttle America certificate because American has 80 seat E175s operating on the Republic certificate currently. However, with the American deal now finalized, those 80 seat E175's will be reconfigured to 76 seat configuration that all of the newer deliveries were delivered with and they can finally merge the certificates together at the end of the year.

The only way Republic could operate the CS300 is with a secondary certificate. Alaska Airlines does not have any scope clause at all, so they could be a possibility if they wanted a plane in that size to compete head to head with Delta out of the SEA hub.


Is that standard contract language for DL with all of their regionals or was that added specifically for YX since they knew the C-Series order was on the books?

YX isn't the only one with this issues, AX and OO both have the MRJ on order as well with nowhere to place them. Obviously UA/DL/AA aren't going to be changing their scope clauses anytime soon so something will have to be done.
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flightsimer
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Re: Republic CSeries order change

Fri Oct 28, 2016 12:56 am

alasizon wrote:
flightsimer wrote:
alasizon wrote:
I have no idea what Spirit's pilot contract looks like, but could Spirit even possibly enter into a regional feed contract with Republic and have Republic fly these aircraft? Could be interesting to see that happen.

No, our contract with Delta prohibits us from flying anything over 76 seats for another carrier on the same certificate. That is why all of the Delta flying is on Shuttle America certificate because American has 80 seat E175s operating on the Republic certificate currently. However, with the American deal now finalized, those 80 seat E175's will be reconfigured to 76 seat configuration that all of the newer deliveries were delivered with and they can finally merge the certificates together at the end of the year.

The only way Republic could operate the CS300 is with a secondary certificate. Alaska Airlines does not have any scope clause at all, so they could be a possibility if they wanted a plane in that size to compete head to head with Delta out of the SEA hub.


Is that standard contract language for DL with all of their regionals or was that added specifically for YX since they knew the C-Series order was on the books?

YX isn't the only one with this issues, AX and OO both have the MRJ on order as well with nowhere to place them. Obviously UA/DL/AA aren't going to be changing their scope clauses anytime soon so something will have to be done.


I believe that stems from DL's scope clause so should be the same for everyone.
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kitplane01
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Re: Republic CSeries order change

Fri Oct 28, 2016 1:51 am

mercure1 wrote:
kitplane01 wrote:
enilria wrote:
Keep the orders on the books, good for BBD.


I don't understand why BBD would think keeping the order on the books is good for BBD. No one with enough money to buy C-series aircraft thinks Republic will take the planes. No one who runs a large mutual fund that invests in BBD thinks Republic will take the planes.

So who, among those with enough money to matter, is fooled?


Same reason Airbus keeps dead A380 orders on the books?

Whether for PR reasons, or some internal accounting it seems to be a thing done by manufacturers


I'm not sure that's true. I think Airbus keeps dead A380 orders on the books is some combination of
1) They cannot remove them from the books without a contractual event like a missed payment
2) The orders are not *dead*, they're just *mostly dead*. The odds that some A380's get delivered are just very low, not zero.

BTW, I agree that the odds the Republic order gets delivered is also not zero, just small.

I'm just curious if these is some other reason I don't know about?????
 
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Boeing778X
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Re: Republic CSeries order change

Fri Oct 28, 2016 2:04 am

Considering the size of DLs order, I highly doubt they will be the last, and I highly doubt they will operate only the CS100.

We all know Republic is never going to operate the aircraft. At this point, I'd still call the order "active", but the way I see it, DL taking the order seems like a likely outcome.
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floridaflyboy
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Re: Republic CSeries order change

Fri Nov 11, 2016 2:15 pm

Revelation wrote:
floridaflyboy wrote:
Revelation wrote:
How do we know that RJET even has the right to sell its slots? I thought the industry cleaned up a lot of this stuff after Ryanair took a bunch of Boeing deliveries and immediately resold them at a profit to other airlines.


So don't sell the slots. Sell the aircraft once they're your property.


That's the exact situation many contracts forbid. Sure, it's your property so you can sell it, but then the vendor can sue you for breach of contract.


Republic could have simply ditched the C Series contract in bankruptcy. They opted not to. They cannot fly the aircraft, not just for their current codeshare partners, but for anyone. They will soon be down to one certificate and having the aircraft on property would be a violation of DL scope. I would be willing to bet a lot of money that they will be sold. Not a one of us knows the details of the RAH C Series order.
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