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ILNFlyer
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Re: UPS ordering 14 B747-8F and 14 options

Thu Oct 27, 2016 5:00 pm

Good news for sure! Should secure the line until the Air Force 1 birds are built.
 
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NameOmitted
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Re: UPS ordering 14 B747-8F and 14 options

Thu Oct 27, 2016 5:07 pm

Planeflyer wrote:
At 6 per year does anyone know if B actually makes money on this program..


At the very least, 1) Boeing delays the cost of shutting down the line and 2) as long as this line is open, Airbus will continue to have some pressure in the VLA market.
 
Geoff1947
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Re: UPS ordering 14 B747-8F and 14 options

Thu Oct 27, 2016 5:11 pm

More success for the Boeing freighters product line. Interesting that they say deliveries up to 2020 so they still have production gaps at 6 frames per year.

Geoff
 
max550
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Re: UPS ordering 14 B747-8F and 14 options

Thu Oct 27, 2016 5:15 pm

DiamondFlyer wrote:
Everything I've read from the pilot chatter is this is all for expansion, no replacement of old frames.

According to this article in WSJ Boeing may be buying back some of the older 744's. It also mentions that all 14 will be new builds rather than white tails. http://www.wsj.com/articles/ups-gives-b ... 1477586525
 
ThReaTeN
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Re: UPS ordering 14 B747-8F and 14 options

Thu Oct 27, 2016 5:23 pm

Very nice. Does anyone know if these new airframes will incorporate any of the tweaks described by Flightglobal here: https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... er-400464/

I.e. what was once referred to as "Project Ozark". While 14 planes aren't exactly a lot (in the context of motivating such investments), if Boeing ever intended to actually introduce the MTOW increases, aerodynamic improvements etc., I would imagine this would have to cut it?
 
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Re: UPS ordering 14 B747-8F and 14 options

Thu Oct 27, 2016 5:25 pm

Only orders can save the 747, this one of those orders... Hopefully there are more to come to bring the production well into the 2020s.
 
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keesje
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Re: UPS ordering 14 B747-8F and 14 options

Thu Oct 27, 2016 5:29 pm

Nice order!
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Finn350
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Re: UPS ordering 14 B747-8F and 14 options

Thu Oct 27, 2016 5:41 pm

Planeflyer wrote:
At 6 per year does anyone know if B actually makes money on this program.

As the saying goes nothing happens until somebody sells something but then again not every sale is profitable.

I'm a shareholder so any solid info would be appreciated.


According to Boeing 2016 Q3 SEC filing

At September 30, 2016 and December 31, 2015 , commercial aircraft programs inventory included the following amounts related to the 747 program: $0 and $942 of deferred production costs, net of reach-forward losses, and $298 and $377 of unamortized tooling costs. At September 30, 2016 , $99 of unamortized tooling costs are expected to be recovered from units included in the program accounting quantity that have firm orders and $199 is expected to be recovered from units included in the program accounting quantity that represent expected future orders. At September 30, 2016 and December 31, 2015 , work in process inventory included a number of completed 747 aircraft that we expect to recover from future orders.


Source: http://s2.q4cdn.com/661678649/files/doc ... Q3-10Q.pdf

Boeing expected to make $99 million / 15 = $6.6 million profit per ordered frame and $199 / 13 = $15 million profit per frames expected to be ordered as of September 30, 2016 (thus including UPS frames that were ordered later). In their next filing they will increase the program accounting block and we will see the new figures which will be based on the true sales prices of these frames.
 
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TWA772LR
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Re: UPS ordering 14 B747-8F and 14 options

Thu Oct 27, 2016 5:41 pm

Great news! Hopefully those 744s that are relegated to domestic flying come to IAH!
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SEPilot
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Re: UPS ordering 14 B747-8F and 14 options

Thu Oct 27, 2016 5:50 pm

Sooner787 wrote:
Maybe my dream of British Airways ordering 15-20 748I's isn't quite dead yet.

BA's current new plane order book still needs frames to replace the last 18 or so 744's.
Maybe BA decides the best plane to replace a 744 is a 748 :)

I think the chance of more 748i orders are very, very slim. BA will not order it, they have already turned it down. They are far more likely to order the A3510 or the 779 if they want another large plane. I gather they have no intention of ordering more A380s, but I consider that more likely than their ordering the 748i. Pity, I would love to see more 748is around, but I do not see it happening. I do think, however, that the 748F is not done yet, which this order reinforces.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: UPS ordering 14 B747-8F and 14 options

Thu Oct 27, 2016 6:03 pm

Not the resurrection for the 747, but at least a glimmer that Boeing will be able to sell a large handful for the next several years.
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Stitch
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Re: UPS ordering 14 B747-8F and 14 options

Thu Oct 27, 2016 6:41 pm

Planeflyer wrote:
At 6 per year does anyone know if B actually makes money on this program.


Boeing took two large write-downs on the 747-8 program this year which should pretty much have cleared the books. So they should be revenue positive on their deliveries going forward even at this low rate.
 
airzona11
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Re: UPS ordering 14 B747-8F and 14 options

Thu Oct 27, 2016 6:47 pm

What a great looking plane! Awesome for UPS and Boeing. Go 747 Go!
 
Mortyman
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Re: UPS ordering 14 B747-8F and 14 options

Thu Oct 27, 2016 6:48 pm

This is great news. Hoping for some more passenger versions too !
 
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Re: UPS ordering 14 B747-8F and 14 options

Thu Oct 27, 2016 6:49 pm

Future orders, if any, will be freighters. If Boeing can hold out long enough to secure some 747-400F replacement orders (which ought to start in the early 2020s) then there could be about 80-100 more freighter sales to be had.

With Boeing needing desperately to sell easier-to-finance 777-300ERs in order to secure a smooth 777 production bridge, 777-300ER pricing and terms will be favorable enough that the passenger 747 can't compete with the 777-300ER in the near term. In the longer term, the 777-9 will do everything a passenger 747 can do at far lower operational cost.
 
INFINITI329
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Re: UPS ordering 14 B747-8F and 14 options

Thu Oct 27, 2016 7:11 pm

I really expected a 777F order from UPS
 
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ikolkyo
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Re: UPS ordering 14 B747-8F and 14 options

Thu Oct 27, 2016 7:20 pm

INFINITI329 wrote:
I really expected a 777F order from UPS



I don't think it's still out of the question, the MD11 will have to be retired eventually.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: UPS ordering 14 B747-8F and 14 options

Thu Oct 27, 2016 7:23 pm

Congrats to Boeing and UPS. Nice order for UPS and a line saving one for the B748 line.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
iamlucky13
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Re: UPS ordering 14 B747-8F and 14 options

Thu Oct 27, 2016 7:36 pm

lightsaber wrote:
Thank you for the details. I cannot get my mind around a low six per year economy of scale.... Does not compute... ;)


It does seem crazy, but they've done a lot of fat trimming on the 747 production, like they did previously with the 767. I'm a bit curious to see if they bump the rate back up. They could potentially have dropped the rate to uneconomic levels while waiting for this sales campaign to run its course.

lightsaber wrote:
As you note this order includes white tails. I do not believe Boeing will make more whitetails. Thus, I believe this extends 747 sales life through 2017 and no more. I hope to be proven wrong as I LOVE the 747.


I wonder. They keep claiming a major replacement cycle is going to come up. If they really believe that, they'll build a few white tails like they did with the C-17 before closing the line, knowing they'll sell later. Unfortunately, conversions and belly cargo seem to keep derailing their plans. I hope you're wrong, too. A world without the 747 won't be the same. It doesn't matter if I'm flying on it or not. Seeing the queen just makes me happy. Long live the queen!

Aptivaboy wrote:
I suspect Boeing gave UPS the sweetest deal of all time to sell these beautiful birds, and I have no problems with that.


Echoing lightsaber's puzzlement about the rate, it can't have been too good of a deal, as line must be marginal in terms of economy of scale. At some price point, Boeing has to say, "We can't afford to sell you a 747 for that price. You need to pay more or buy 777's."

The fact that Boeing is also extremely eager to sell 777's right now suggests UPS specifically wanted the 747.

DiamondFlyer wrote:
Everything I've read from the pilot chatter is this is all for expansion, no replacement of old frames.


This is a perennial source of intrigue for me. The constant story is that cargo yields are terrible because the market is badly over-capacity, but cargo operators keep buying freighters.

Granted, I know that dedicated freighters, and businesses like UPS in particular, serve a different set of customers than belly cargo does, but aren't both dedicated freighter operators and belly cargo over capacity?

Also related, one of the articles said as these enter the fleet, they'll shift some of the 747-400's to domestic flying.
 
jetblueguy22
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Re: UPS ordering 14 B747-8F and 14 options

Thu Oct 27, 2016 7:39 pm

As a Boeing fan and UPSer, sweeeeeet
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TUGMASTER
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Re: UPS ordering 14 B747-8F and 14 options

Thu Oct 27, 2016 7:54 pm

WOW.... deliverys 2017-2020...?

That'll mean the 747, 100 thru to 8i will have been in production over 50 years.... congrats indeed
 
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Re: UPS ordering 14 B747-8F and 14 options

Thu Oct 27, 2016 8:05 pm

TUGMASTER wrote:
WOW.... deliverys 2017-2020...?

That'll mean the 747, 100 thru to 8i will have been in production over 50 years.... congrats indeed


8F as opposed to 8i, no?
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ZeeZoo
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Re: UPS ordering 14 B747-8F and 14 options

Thu Oct 27, 2016 8:08 pm

Okay, so I have 2 questions

A) How likely is the 14 options being taken up?

B) How likely could it be that if production sticks till 2021-2022ish (options being taken up + AF1) we could start seeing a flurry of 747-400F operators purchasing the 747-8F? Saudia? Asiana? Kalitta? Singapore? Cathay? Eva Air? I believe there is nearly 200 747-400Fs still operating.
 
SoJo
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Re: UPS ordering 14 B747-8F and 14 options

Thu Oct 27, 2016 8:56 pm

What price/discount did Boeing offer:
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Aptivaboy
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Re: UPS ordering 14 B747-8F and 14 options

Thu Oct 27, 2016 8:58 pm

The fact that Boeing is also extremely eager to sell 777's right now suggests UPS specifically wanted the 747.


I suspect it's probably a bit of both. Boeing undercut 748 sales by offering lower prices and better deals on the 777, according to a number of reports. The fact that they just made this deal certainly indicates that UPS wanted them because no sane business would make this large of capital investment in something that they didn't want, but also that Boeing decided that a 748 sale was as good as anything else. This probably means that they made a very competitive deal with UPS on the 748, maybe even a sweetheart deal to keep the line open.
 
log0008
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Re: UPS ordering 14 B747-8F and 14 options

Thu Oct 27, 2016 9:34 pm

Great news effectively keeping the line open until 2020 giving them more time to hopefully get some more orders and for the cargo market to recover more. I wonder if any of the Chinese cargo airlines may be interested in a few?
 
glassfish777
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Re: UPS ordering 14 B747-8F and 14 options

Thu Oct 27, 2016 10:01 pm

I haven't been keeping up with the 747-8 program. Are these white tails or new builds for UPS?
 
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Stitch
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Re: UPS ordering 14 B747-8F and 14 options

Thu Oct 27, 2016 10:24 pm

INFINITI329 wrote:
I really expected a 777F order from UPS


They're a large 747 operator and have a real need for the type. The 777 freighter will be around for awhile (if not the 777F, then the 778F) so between the two, I can understand why UPS would commit to the 747-8 now.


iamlucky13 wrote:
Echoing lightsaber's puzzlement about the rate, it can't have been too good of a deal, as line must be marginal in terms of economy of scale. At some price point, Boeing has to say, "We can't afford to sell you a 747 for that price. You need to pay more or buy 777's."

The fact that Boeing is also extremely eager to sell 777's right now suggests UPS specifically wanted the 747.


*nods*


iamlucky13 wrote:
Also related, one of the articles said as these enter the fleet, they'll shift some of the 747-400's to domestic flying.


And that could explain why they're not jumping on the 777F at the moment. The 747-400 would be a significant up-tick in volume and weight from an MD-11F so they would either be interim replacements or they could be providing additional up-lift to support the MD-10/MD-11 fleet domestically if they are looking to expand there.


ZeeZoo wrote:
How likely is the 14 options being taken up?


Depends on how much UPS expands during that time, I would guess.


SoJo wrote:
What price/discount did Boeing offer:


They would have received a good price, but Boeing's deep enough in the hole on the program that they're going to be sure they make a profit on each of them.


glassfish777 wrote:
I haven't been keeping up with the 747-8 program. Are these white tails or new builds for UPS?


All new builds with deliveries starting in 2017 per Boeing.
 
flyDTW1992
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Re: UPS ordering 14 B747-8F and 14 options

Thu Oct 27, 2016 10:27 pm

ZeeZoo wrote:
Okay, so I have 2 questions

A) How likely is the 14 options being taken up?

B) How likely could it be that if production sticks till 2021-2022ish (options being taken up + AF1) we could start seeing a flurry of 747-400F operators purchasing the 747-8F? Saudia? Asiana? Kalitta? Singapore? Cathay? Eva Air? I believe there is nearly 200 747-400Fs still operating.


As for "B" I would say reasonably likely. Carriers that use the nose door on their -400Fs are going to need replacements, particularly for the older frames. I'd say at least a couple dozen orders could come from that segment of the market, and maybe many more depending on how the circumstances continue to play out.

As a Kalitta employee I would not be surprised if we wound up picking up 5 or 6 -8Fs sometime in the next several years, but that's pure conjecture.
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ER757
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Re: UPS ordering 14 B747-8F and 14 options

Thu Oct 27, 2016 10:55 pm

ZeeZoo wrote:
Okay, so I have 2 questions

A) How likely is the 14 options being taken up?

B) How likely could it be that if production sticks till 2021-2022ish (options being taken up + AF1) we could start seeing a flurry of 747-400F operators purchasing the 747-8F? Saudia? Asiana? Kalitta? Singapore? Cathay? Eva Air? I believe there is nearly 200 747-400Fs still operating.

The answer to A is pretty hard to guess at but I'll say 50/50 - boy that's a bold prediction on my part isn't it? :P

for part B - I have hopes that at least a couple of those carriers order some. I think CI could and should be added to your list of potential buyers. Aren't OZ and BR's 747 freighters 744-BCF's? They might not need the nose door and thus may downsize to 777-F's when replacing their current fleet if they don't need sheer volume
 
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Re: UPS ordering 14 B747-8F and 14 options

Thu Oct 27, 2016 11:32 pm

DiamondFlyer wrote:
Everything I've read from the pilot chatter is this is all for expansion, no replacement of old frames.


Yeah, the assertion that this is going to be for 744 replacement doesn't make much sense to me. Even their oldest 744s are still relatively young for a freighter, especially keeping in mind that some of UPS's classics were almost 40 years old by the time they were retired.
 
UPS Pilot
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Re: UPS ordering 14 B747-8F and 14 options

Fri Oct 28, 2016 12:23 am

The 14 options will probably be converted to 777's. The MD's will be transitioned domestically.
 
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flyPIT
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Re: UPS ordering 14 B747-8F and 14 options

Fri Oct 28, 2016 1:09 am

kabq737 wrote:
Wow that's great!! I believe just recently a certain poster here was predicting that!

Indeed, and a few others are having a 748 sized serving of crow.


Querosene wrote:
The history: Airbus cancelled the A380-800F because UPS and FedEx cancelled their orders as the delivey dates were pushed by years, because of the initial A380 production problems. The End.

To add to this, one of the main reasons UPS ordered the A-380 to begin with was to get out of 37 outstanding A300 deliveries they no longer wanted.

While on the topic of the A380, does anyone know off hand how many were ordered this year?


GVIIO wrote:
Very exciting news! I reckon we could expect to see them in SDF, ANC, HKG, NRT, ICN, DXB

You could expect to see them in every current 744 city, so in addition to what you listed (NRT excluded), that would be PVG, SZX, TPE, KIX, BKK, BOM, CGN, ONT, HNL, and GUM. Then a few new ones such as SYD (rumored before the DXB hull loss) and perhaps NRT.


max550 wrote:
Very good news, congrats to Boeing and 5X!
I imagine they'll quickly replace the 6 they have that were built from '93-'97.

Agreed. Perhaps not "quickly", but I imagine within a couple years. They don't have much life left in them.


747classic wrote:
14x 747-8F will probably be used for replacement of the oldest 6 744 freighter aircraft and the first MD11F aircraft that are due for an HMV.

The UPS 744 fleet contains of : :
4 early production , ex Cargolux 744F aircraft, including the first built 744F freighter (Air france NTU), average age : 19-23 years
2 converted ex. EVA Air, 744BCF aircraft, average age 23 years
7 late production , UPS ordered B744F aircraft, average age 8-9 years.

The oldest 6 aircraft are due for replacement in a few years time, because every next HMV becomes more expensive, due mandatory aging aircraft inspections
Especially the two converted BCF freighters are more susceptible for widespread fatigue due increased operating weights above the original design limitations.

Indeed. But I have a feeling someone will be along shortly to tell us otherwise.


max550 wrote:
DiamondFlyer wrote:
Everything I've read from the pilot chatter is this is all for expansion, no replacement of old frames.

According to this article in WSJ Boeing may be buying back some of the older 744's.

That makes sense. After Boeing buys them back I doubt they will ever fly in revenue service again. To the desert, to become spare parts and beer cans.


And here it is......
777PHX wrote:
DiamondFlyer wrote:
Everything I've read from the pilot chatter is this is all for expansion, no replacement of old frames.


Yeah, the assertion that this is going to be for 744 replacement doesn't make much sense to me. Even their oldest 744s are still relatively young for a freighter, especially keeping in mind that some of UPS's classics were almost 40 years old by the time they were retired.

After being debunked very recently in the other thread about everything you said, you still come back with this nonsense?

To review:
-unlike in the domestic theater, intercontinental freighters keep moving, and are therefore the older UPS 744s are becoming high time.
-considering the above, their oldest 744s are not "relatively young". Far from it.
-UPS classic 747s were NOT almost 40 years old when they were retired.
-These older 744s are having serious maintenance reliability issues and are coming up on major inspections.
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F9Animal
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Re: UPS ordering 14 B747-8F and 14 options

Fri Oct 28, 2016 2:20 am

Yes!! Well, hopefully this will attract more buyers for the queen of the skies! It looks great in UPS colors!
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UA444
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Re: UPS ordering 14 B747-8F and 14 options

Fri Oct 28, 2016 2:22 am

I've been saying they were a 747-8F potential client for awhile while everyone else was trying to write the plane's obituary. A.net's resident 747 bashers are hopefully drowning in tears today.
 
NoTime
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Re: UPS ordering 14 B747-8F and 14 options

Fri Oct 28, 2016 2:25 am

Awesome news - Congrats, Boeing!
 
Max Q
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Re: UPS ordering 14 B747-8F and 14 options

Fri Oct 28, 2016 3:42 am

Interesting UPS never went for the 744-ER, perhaps they were planning longer term waiting for
the substantial performance increase and economics of the -8 model.


Great news for us 747 lovers, I suspect this order will renew interest worldwide and generate new sales
for this superb and unique aircraft.
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Re: UPS ordering 14 B747-8F and 14 options

Fri Oct 28, 2016 3:51 am

 
Okcflyer
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Re: UPS ordering 14 B747-8F and 14 options

Fri Oct 28, 2016 3:52 am

I too am shocked but happy to see the order. I expected 77F orders.

Fundamentally what is different between UPS and Fedex'a networks such that the smaller airline flies the significantly larger volume plane?

Does the A330F stand a chance for the MD-11 replacement market whenever that comes around?
 
FlyPeoria
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Re: UPS ordering 14 B747-8F and 14 options

Fri Oct 28, 2016 4:45 am

Okcflyer wrote:
I too am shocked but happy to see the order. I expected 77F orders.

Fundamentally what is different between UPS and Fedex'a networks such that the smaller airline flies the significantly larger volume plane?

Does the A330F stand a chance for the MD-11 replacement market whenever that comes around?


Perhaps UPS handles more heavy freight (machinery, auto parts, etc.)? Company acquired Menlo Worldwide's heavy freight operations in 2005. Not sure how wide-spread they handle that business though.
 
SCAT15F
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Re: UPS ordering 14 B747-8F and 14 options

Fri Oct 28, 2016 5:31 am

So we still can't count the Volga Dnepr order for 20 frames (including 4 delivered already) towards the 747-8F order tally? I thought this was firmed at Farnborough after the LOI from last year?
 
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cougar15
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Re: UPS ordering 14 B747-8F and 14 options

Fri Oct 28, 2016 6:05 am

Plenty of 744´s at CGN each week, so it will certainly see the 748. UPS 006 that crashed at DXB was enroute to CGN.
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r2rho
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Re: UPS ordering 14 B747-8F and 14 options

Fri Oct 28, 2016 8:50 am

As an aviation enthusiast, I am happy about every additional year of 747 production. This order is significant not only for its size, but also timing: with the 748 struggling, while Boeing is also trying to fill 777 slots. It's clear that UPS specifically wanted the 748F, not the 777F.

Count me in among those who believe there are 744 replacement (and growth?) orders to come if Boeing can hold out and keep the line open until the next wave (or economic growth phase) comes along.

At 6 per year does anyone know if B actually makes money on this program.
Airbus has claimed that at 12 A380s per year they make a slight sloss (in terms of production break even). I would like to see a similar transparency from Boeing. Then again, different accounting practices make a direct comparison impossible.
I struggle to believe that Boeing can make a profit (in production break even terms) on 6 frames a year, but that's not really important. What matters is the big picture. And that big picture says to me that that the benefits of keeping the line open are larger in the long term than any small losses that may be incurred in the short term.
 
andrej
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Re: UPS ordering 14 B747-8F and 14 options

Fri Oct 28, 2016 8:55 am

Great news! Glad to see 747 line to live a little longer. :)
 
na
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Re: UPS ordering 14 B747-8F and 14 options

Fri Oct 28, 2016 9:54 am

r2rho wrote:
Count me in among those who believe there are 744 replacement (and growth?) orders to come if Boeing can hold out and keep the line open until the next wave (or economic growth phase) comes along.


The UPS order (plus the curious Air Bridge order) is the long awaited deal that forms the bridge to the period when the majority of 744Fs need replacing - the 2020s.

r2rho wrote:
I struggle to believe that Boeing can make a profit (in production break even terms) on 6 frames a year, but that's not really important. What matters is the big picture. And that big picture says to me that that the benefits of keeping the line open are larger in the long term than any small losses that may be incurred in the short term.

How long did Boeing hold out on to the old 767 in the hope for for a series production for the USAF, manufacturing sometimes just single-digit numbers per year? 10 years? And while that order came, they still produce just around 10 767s a year, and almost all for just one client which surely got a very sweet deal (Fedex). They can do the same with the 747 (freighter), of which at least 100 will have to be replaced in the next decade. I guess there is a fair chance that at least 50% of these roughly 100 new freighters will be 748Fs.
 
rbavfan
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Re: UPS ordering 14 B747-8F and 14 options

Fri Oct 28, 2016 10:44 am

KrustyTheKlown wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
A save the line, for one year, order.

Congrats to both. UPS is a tough negotiator.... I can only imagine how good the terms were.

Lightsaber


More like 2 years 4 months of production @ 6 per year


Except there are other orders still in the production Que.
 
Noshow
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Re: UPS ordering 14 B747-8F and 14 options

Fri Oct 28, 2016 10:58 am

Maybe they have been authorized to price them more agressive now? If so others might follow.
 
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Re: UPS ordering 14 B747-8F and 14 options

Fri Oct 28, 2016 3:38 pm

Sooner787 wrote:
Maybe my dream of British Airways ordering 15-20 748I's isn't quite dead yet.

BA's current new plane order book still needs frames to replace the last 18 or so 744's.
Maybe BA decides the best plane to replace a 744 is a 748 :)


While that would be SHWEET, I'm not holding my breath. I think the 777-9 has a far better chance at getting into BA.
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Re: UPS ordering 14 B747-8F and 14 options

Fri Oct 28, 2016 3:48 pm

Boeing778X wrote:
Sooner787 wrote:
Maybe my dream of British Airways ordering 15-20 748I's isn't quite dead yet.

BA's current new plane order book still needs frames to replace the last 18 or so 744's.
Maybe BA decides the best plane to replace a 744 is a 748 :)


While that would be SHWEET, I'm not holding my breath. I think the 777-9 has a far better chance at getting into BA.


Given that the largest passenger operator of the 748, LH, has already opted for the 777-9 instead of exercising options on the 747-8, I think that says quite a bit about the future prospects of the passenger 747-8 (absent really, really good discounts).
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Re: UPS ordering 14 B747-8F and 14 options

Fri Oct 28, 2016 3:52 pm

Okcflyer wrote:
I too am shocked but happy to see the order. I expected 77F orders.

Fundamentally what is different between UPS and Fedex'a networks such that the smaller airline flies the significantly larger volume plane?

Does the A330F stand a chance for the MD-11 replacement market whenever that comes around?

FedEx competes for higher yield freight which is even more time sensitive. UPS has better cost control and thus has attracted customers that are a little more price than time sensitive. That is why more UPS 'air freight' is trucked. We're talking hours.

And yes, both compete for the same customers. In general FedEx competes a little more on speed and UPS cost...

Just my two cents...

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