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DaufuskieGuy
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Australia's first direct non-stop flight to ­Europe is believed to be just weeks away

Fri Oct 28, 2016 3:27 am

Australia's first direct non-stop flight to ­Europe is believed to be just weeks away, according to Qantas chief Alan Joyce.
Mr Joyce said negotiations over the carrier's 'game-changing' 19-hour Perth to London service were nearly finished - and the direct flights would have huge ramifications for the airline industry, The Australian reports.
Qantas has been negotiating with Perth airport and both federal and state governments but said a final decision was 'imminent', Mr Joyce said.


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... weeks.html
 
downdata
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Re: Australia's first direct non-stop flight to ­Europe is believed to be just weeks away

Fri Oct 28, 2016 5:19 am

Again, what sane person would want to transit at PER? Inbound would just be a nightmare as people have to wait for an hour for their checked baggage, go through security/immigration, wait another hour to be bussed to a different terminal only to miss their domestic connection.
 
Aeromania
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Re: Australia's first direct non-stop flight to ­Europe is believed to be just weeks away

Fri Oct 28, 2016 5:51 am

When they say weeks, just how many are they referring to? The Dreamliners won't enter service until a year from now: http://www.qantasnewsroom.com.au/media- ... reamliner/
 
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qf789
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Re: Australia's first direct non-stop flight to ­Europe is believed to be just weeks away

Fri Oct 28, 2016 6:02 am

Aeromania wrote:
When they say weeks, just how many are they referring to? The Dreamliners won't enter service until a year from now: http://www.qantasnewsroom.com.au/media- ... reamliner/


What they are referring to is a decision will be made in the coming weeks. It has previously been reported that QF will announce its first ULH route for the 787 in early 2017 to start in 2018, so I would think that would be announced probably in Feb when they announce their first half results. QF will announce the first 787 international route before years end, probably in December, an existing route currently operated by the 744
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vhebb
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Re: Australia's first direct non-stop flight to ­Europe is believed to be just weeks away

Fri Oct 28, 2016 6:03 am

The negotiations include combining QFs international and domestic ops under one roof in Perth.

So the connection "nightmare" won't exist.
 
downdata
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Re: Australia's first direct non-stop flight to ­Europe is believed to be just weeks away

Fri Oct 28, 2016 6:14 am

vhebb wrote:
The negotiations include combining QFs international and domestic ops under one roof in Perth.

So the connection "nightmare" won't exist.


Still terrible if you have checked baggage. I missed my MEL-SYD connection by more than 1 hour. And the MEL international - domestic terminal are in the same building. The baggage claim and security took forever.
 
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LTU330
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Re: Australia's first direct non-stop flight to ­Europe is believed to be just weeks away

Fri Oct 28, 2016 6:27 am

downdata wrote:
vhebb wrote:
The negotiations include combining QFs international and domestic ops under one roof in Perth.

So the connection "nightmare" won't exist.


Still terrible if you have checked baggage. I missed my MEL-SYD connection by more than 1 hour. And the MEL international - domestic terminal are in the same building. The baggage claim and security took forever.


Why would you have to collect your checked baggage ? Surely it will go through to your final destination, or do things like that work differently in Australia ?
 
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Re: Australia's first direct non-stop flight to ­Europe is believed to be just weeks away

Fri Oct 28, 2016 6:47 am

I wouldn't say PER is easy, but it wasn't too bad when I've done it. I flew LHR-SIN-PER-ADL (obviously just before the DXB change), and we arrived in PER very early and I was through immigration and with bags within 30-45 mins, and that was just ordinary Y class no fancy priority handling or anything. As I was checked through, I dropped my bags off at the domestic transfer and went an got the bus - Yes I accept I had to wait there, but that was because it was something like 4 or 5 am. If the airport has flights coming in at funny times of the day, then it should provide a service to cater for them, I agree. Maybe someone from PER should go to SYD to see how efficiently they do it and take some lessons, and it probably does help if you've booked QF all the way through as they try to make the transfer a bit easier.

Anyhow I'd be up for this new flight if it comes, not sure about 19 hours sat on my backside though. I would imagine it will be a bit of a challenge for crews too. We'll see.......
 
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Re: Australia's first direct non-stop flight to ­Europe is believed to be just weeks away

Fri Oct 28, 2016 6:54 am

If you transfer from an international to domestic flight you have to go through passport control, quarantine and customs formalities at the point of transfer, like the US. If the international flight lands and continues then you go through passport control, quarantine and customs at your ultimate destination.
 
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Re: Australia's first direct non-stop flight to ­Europe is believed to be just weeks away

Fri Oct 28, 2016 6:56 am

19 hours on a plane seat, no thank you.
Much sooner take a break at SIN for a day, guess I'm getting to old and like my creature comforts.
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frigatebird
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Re: Australia's first direct non-stop flight to ­Europe is believed to be just weeks away

Fri Oct 28, 2016 6:56 am

qf789 wrote:
It has previously been reported that QF will announce its first ULH route for the 787 in early 2017 to start in 2018,

It will be interesting to see how QF will configure their 787-9 for a 19 hour route. Without cargo revenue and a light passenger load, the fares would have to be steep to make it profitable, even with a 787.

LTU330 wrote:
downdata wrote:
vhebb wrote:
The negotiations include combining QFs international and domestic ops under one roof in Perth.

So the connection "nightmare" won't exist.


Still terrible if you have checked baggage. I missed my MEL-SYD connection by more than 1 hour. And the MEL international - domestic terminal are in the same building. The baggage claim and security took forever.


Why would you have to collect your checked baggage ? Surely it will go through to your final destination, or do things like that work differently in Australia ?

When connecting to a domestic flight, you have to collect your baggage and go through customs before connecting to your domestic flight. Happens in most countries, when you arrive from a domestic flight you don't go through customs so you have to clear it when you arrive from your international flight.
I was in Norway last week, and had to collect my baggage at OSL before I could check in for my flight to EVE. I booked an evening flight to OSL and a domestic flight for the following morning with a night at an airport hotel to be sure I had enough time. Same for my flight to India next year, I'll have a night at a hotel at DEL before I connect to my flight to GAU.
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Re: Australia's first direct non-stop flight to ­Europe is believed to be just weeks away

Fri Oct 28, 2016 7:12 am

frigatebird wrote:
qf789 wrote:
It has previously been reported that QF will announce its first ULH route for the 787 in early 2017 to start in 2018,

It will be interesting to see how QF will configure their 787-9 for a 19 hour route. Without cargo revenue and a light passenger load, the fares would have to be steep to make it profitable, even with a 787.

LTU330 wrote:
downdata wrote:

Still terrible if you have checked baggage. I missed my MEL-SYD connection by more than 1 hour. And the MEL international - domestic terminal are in the same building. The baggage claim and security took forever.


Why would you have to collect your checked baggage ? Surely it will go through to your final destination, or do things like that work differently in Australia ?

When connecting to a domestic flight, you have to collect your baggage and go through customs before connecting to your domestic flight. Happens in most countries, when you arrive from a domestic flight you don't go through customs so you have to clear it when you arrive from your international flight.
I was in Norway last week, and had to collect my baggage at OSL before I could check in for my flight to EVE. I booked an evening flight to OSL and a domestic flight for the following morning with a night at an airport hotel to be sure I had enough time. Same for my flight to India next year, I'll have a night at a hotel at DEL before I connect to my flight to GAU.

Not in the UK. If, for example, you arrive at LHR on an international flight and connect to a domestic flight to MAN, you go through immigration but not Customs. When you arrive at MAN, if you have goods to declare you contact Customs by telephone (or very occasionally there will be Customs Officers present). It sounds crazy, but that's how it works here.
 
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Re: Australia's first direct non-stop flight to ­Europe is believed to be just weeks away

Fri Oct 28, 2016 7:14 am

downdata wrote:
Again, what sane person would want to transit at PER?


Not everyone will be transiting, the service will be aimed at direct O&D between LHR-PER. This won't replace SYD-DXB-LHR or MEL-DXB-LHR, so the only feasible connecting traffic will be BNE/ADL, which are already well served on QF's codeshare via EK.
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Re: Australia's first direct non-stop flight to ­Europe is believed to be just weeks away

Fri Oct 28, 2016 7:28 am

frigatebird wrote:
It will be interesting to see how QF will configure their 787-9 for a 19 hour route.

Without cargo revenue and a light passenger load, the fares would have to be steep to make it profitable, even with a 787.



As announced yesterday QF 787-9's will be configured with 42 Business, 28 Premium Economy and 166 Economy Seats.

Alan Joyce has also acknowledged the route would have some restrictions during some parts of the year

conditions on the route would mean that Qantas wouldn't always be able to fill all 236 seats in order to reduce weight and thus boost fuel efficiency and range.

"We've modelled all of the routes, we know what the loads can be and we know the restrictions on some parts of the year," Joyce explains.

"As you can imagine, sometimes the winds are heavy – like on our Sydney-Dallas service, where some parts of the year we can't take a full load. That's fine because the (Boeing 787) economics work superbly across the entire year."



http://www.ausbt.com.au/qantas-non-stop ... et-to-soar
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smi0006
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Re: Australia's first direct non-stop flight to ­Europe is believed to be just weeks away

Fri Oct 28, 2016 7:32 am

Interesting indeed. How many frames would this use? Would daily be sustainable, or three weekly?

I do like the idea of non-stop, I'm happy on long haul flights, I sleep really well- but the stop overs mucks up my sleep, and wastes time. Not just the transit, but take off, landing, decent, climb etc.

Perhaps testing the route with a 789 makes sense before a 778 or A359ULR order for PER/SYD/MEL- LHR/FCO/CDG/JFK. If it doesn't work the 789 will slot back in easily elsewhere.
 
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Re: Australia's first direct non-stop flight to ­Europe is believed to be just weeks away

Fri Oct 28, 2016 7:45 am

Hi

I new hear and first post.

I saw
Again, what sane person would want to transit at PER? Inbound would just be a nightmare as people have to wait for an hour for their checked baggage, go through security/immigration, wait another hour to be bussed to a different terminal only to miss their domestic connection.

From what I have been reading in the media in Perth I understand Qantas is looking at having Terminal 3 (old virgin terminal) directly next to terminal 4 converted to accommodate the dreamliner for international flights so no transfer is required to the international airport on the other side of the airport. The plan is to make it as quick as possible to link to other cities in Australia. :)
 
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qf789
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Re: Australia's first direct non-stop flight to ­Europe is believed to be just weeks away

Fri Oct 28, 2016 7:54 am

smi0006 wrote:
Interesting indeed. How many frames would this use? Would daily be sustainable, or three weekly?

I do like the idea of non-stop, I'm happy on long haul flights, I sleep really well- but the stop overs mucks up my sleep, and wastes time. Not just the transit, but take off, landing, decent, climb etc.

Perhaps testing the route with a 789 makes sense before a 778 or A359ULR order for PER/SYD/MEL- LHR/FCO/CDG/JFK. If it doesn't work the 789 will slot back in easily elsewhere.


I would say they would need up to 3 frames though this would depend on how much time it would spend on the ground at LHR. For the route to be profitable I cant seeing it operating anything less than daily
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oldannyboy
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Re: Australia's first direct non-stop flight to ­Europe is believed to be just weeks away

Fri Oct 28, 2016 7:57 am

I was in Norway last week, and had to collect my baggage at OSL before I could check in for my flight to EVE. I booked an evening flight to OSL and a domestic flight for the following morning with a night at an airport hotel to be sure I had enough time. Same for my flight to India next year, I'll have a night at a hotel at DEL before I connect to my flight to GAU.

[/quote]

Not at all.. it's mostly an exception, and not a rule. In most countries you just continue on, and collect baggage and clear customs/immigration at final destination..
 
outbackair
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Re: Australia's first direct non-stop flight to ­Europe is believed to be just weeks away

Fri Oct 28, 2016 8:43 am

Not everyone will be transiting, the service will be aimed at direct O&D between LHR-PER. This won't replace SYD-DXB-LHR or MEL-DXB-LHR, so the only feasible connecting traffic will be BNE/ADL, which are already well served on QF's codeshare via EK.


Western Australia has flights from regional airports too, such as Karratha, Broome and Kalgoorlie. Many of these are liked to the resource/mining sector, so could expect some high yield pax.

Perth's biggest problem is still the queue for quarantine inspection/customs which takes forever.
 
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Re: Australia's first direct non-stop flight to ­Europe is believed to be just weeks away

Fri Oct 28, 2016 9:25 am

Aeromania wrote:
When they say weeks, just how many are they referring to? The Dreamliners won't enter service until a year from now:
http://www.qantasnewsroom.com.au/media- ... reamliner/


I think they mean they'll ensure the route first.
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Re: Australia's first direct non-stop flight to ­Europe is believed to be just weeks away

Fri Oct 28, 2016 9:55 am

That's 9 across on a 787 that far...no thanks. As much as I like QF, I'll rather choose a different stop each trip and see the world.
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TheSonntag
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Re: Australia's first direct non-stop flight to ­Europe is believed to be just weeks away

Fri Oct 28, 2016 9:56 am

Who wants to sit in a 787 for 19 hours?
 
redroo
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Re: Australia's first direct non-stop flight to ­Europe is believed to be just weeks away

Fri Oct 28, 2016 10:08 am

I think its a great idea and I really hope QF do it.

The DXB stop over is loved and hated by equal numbers of people. I find the airport a crowded zoo; I dislike connecting in the middle of the night; and a I dislike the short flight into Europe landing early in the morning. However the connections with EK are amazing.

Everyone is different, but I find the stop overs a chore. Its nice to get off the plane and stretch your legs, but I'm ready to get back on it and get underway in about 15 minutes. So give me a non-stop any day.

This will also give QF something no one else had... a non-stop from europe to australia.
 
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Re: Australia's first direct non-stop flight to ­Europe is believed to be just weeks away

Fri Oct 28, 2016 10:15 am

Not to say that QF don't know what they're doing, but I can't see this flight being profitable.

The Kangaroo route is highly competitive and fantastic fares can be had from many points in Europe to Aus with EK, QR, EY, SQ, MH, TG, CX, BA, etc.

QF's costs will be far higher than the competition due to the stage length of this flight, so will they be able to command a premium price for this non stop service? I for one would rather save money an stop somewhere, as even in J that is one loooong flight.
 
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Re: Australia's first direct non-stop flight to ­Europe is believed to be just weeks away

Fri Oct 28, 2016 10:51 am

KaiTak747 wrote:
Not to say that QF don't know what they're doing, but I can't see this flight being profitable.

The Kangaroo route is highly competitive and fantastic fares can be had from many points in Europe to Aus with EK, QR, EY, SQ, MH, TG, CX, BA, etc.

QF's costs will be far higher than the competition due to the stage length of this flight, so will they be able to command a premium price for this non stop service? I for one would rather save money an stop somewhere, as even in J that is one loooong flight.


Jus a week ago at QF's AGM Alan Joyce said that operating a PER-LHR flight would improve its operation into LHR

Qantas chief executive Alan Joyce says a nonstop service between Perth and London would lead to the airline having an improved operation into the UK capital.

“But I have to say, London is a challenge because you have over 30 carriers operating on that market and we have extremely low airfares,” Joyce said.

“That’s one of the reasons we are considering an operation like Perth-London.

“If we can make it work out of Perth that is a way of actually having a very good operation we believe into London.”


http://australianaviation.com.au/2016/1 ... challenge/

Tim Clark has also backed PER-LHR flights saying it was the smart thing to do

https://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/wa/a/ ... top/#page1
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finnishway
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Re: Australia's first direct non-stop flight to ­Europe is believed to be just weeks away

Fri Oct 28, 2016 10:55 am

Why just don't fly LHR-SIN-PER and connect passengers from PER to other destinations? That wouldn't be nonstop, but shorter flight than LHR-SIN-SYD so cheaper for the airline to operate.
 
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Re: Australia's first direct non-stop flight to ­Europe is believed to be just weeks away

Fri Oct 28, 2016 10:57 am

frigatebird wrote:
.
I was in Norway last week, and had to collect my baggage at OSL before I could check in for my flight to EVE. I booked an evening flight to OSL and a domestic flight for the following morning with a night at an airport hotel to be sure I had enough time. Same for my flight to India next year, I'll have a night at a hotel at DEL before I connect to my flight to GAU.


You can do an international to domestic transfer in 45 minutes at OSL, it only gets sketchy if you have come from a non shengen country and your aircraft is a a remote stand where they have to bus you to the terminal, then you need 1 hour no more.
 
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Re: Australia's first direct non-stop flight to ­Europe is believed to be just weeks away

Fri Oct 28, 2016 11:46 am

I guess it's interesting for PER-LON O&D travelers (which number in the tens a day?) but there are already distance- and time-efficient 1-stop options SYD/BNE/MEL/ADL/CBR-LON so the benefit for most Australia-London travelers looks pretty small.

Yes, the config for ULH... one could hope for minimum 18.5 inch seat width and 33" pitch in coach and three pretty generous meal services.
 
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Re: Australia's first direct non-stop flight to ­Europe is believed to be just weeks away

Fri Oct 28, 2016 12:06 pm

TheSonntag wrote:
Who wants to sit in a 787 for 19 hours?

The people who pay big bucks to fly in business and premium economy, probably. The rest will be lured with cheap fares. I suspect QF will get the bulk of the corporate contracts on this route too. I think this is more about getting those customers away from SQ, than it is about making a profit, although with enough premium customers and the 787's lower trip costs, it should be a profitable route.
 
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Re: Australia's first direct non-stop flight to ­Europe is believed to be just weeks away

Fri Oct 28, 2016 12:33 pm

I would have thought you would need at least two sets of pilots and cabin crew for such a long flight.. sounds awful..

Why not go the other way? My last trip to Australia was Air New Zealand LHR - LAX, then. Virgin Australia LAX to Brisbane... only downside is that you cross the dateline and you technically lose a day!
 
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Re: Australia's first direct non-stop flight to ­Europe is believed to be just weeks away

Fri Oct 28, 2016 12:41 pm

downdata wrote:
Again, what sane person would want to transit at PER? Inbound would just be a nightmare as people have to wait for an hour for their checked baggage, go through security/immigration, wait another hour to be bussed to a different terminal only to miss their domestic connection.


This is not specific to PER. It can happen almost anywhere for various reasons (very remote parking, gate not available, complicated transfer between terminals, etc).
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Re: Australia's first direct non-stop flight to ­Europe is believed to be just weeks away

Fri Oct 28, 2016 12:54 pm

ro1960 wrote:
downdata wrote:
Again, what sane person would want to transit at PER? Inbound would just be a nightmare as people have to wait for an hour for their checked baggage, go through security/immigration, wait another hour to be bussed to a different terminal only to miss their domestic connection.


This is not specific to PER. It can happen almost anywhere for various reasons (very remote parking, gate not available, complicated transfer between terminals, etc).


Its specific to Australia :/
 
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Re: Australia's first direct non-stop flight to ­Europe is believed to be just weeks away

Fri Oct 28, 2016 1:03 pm

airbazar wrote:
TheSonntag wrote:
Who wants to sit in a 787 for 19 hours?

The people who pay big bucks to fly in business and premium economy, probably. The rest will be lured with cheap fares. I suspect QF will get the bulk of the corporate contracts on this route too. I think this is more about getting those customers away from SQ, than it is about making a profit, although with enough premium customers and the 787's lower trip costs, it should be a profitable route.


Yup. I only fly Business on longhaul these days (the wife refuses to try First because we probably wouldn't want to go back to business afterward ;) ), and I'd take this over a longer flight with a stop.

Modern Business class really changes the approach you can personally take to long haul - no more dreading hours and hours in a pitiful seat, but you actually enjoy yourself both onboard and in the lounge beforehand.
 
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Re: Australia's first direct non-stop flight to ­Europe is believed to be just weeks away

Fri Oct 28, 2016 1:06 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
I guess it's interesting for PER-LON O&D travelers (which number in the tens a day?) but there are already distance- and time-efficient 1-stop options SYD/BNE/MEL/ADL/CBR-LON so the benefit for most Australia-London travelers looks pretty small.

Yes, the config for ULH... one could hope for minimum 18.5 inch seat width and 33" pitch in coach and three pretty generous meal services.


I would imagine the O&D to be much much higher than that. PER area has well over a million people.
 
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Re: Australia's first direct non-stop flight to ­Europe is believed to be just weeks away

Fri Oct 28, 2016 1:19 pm

Great use of the 789. Since this is such a small plane, it should be possible to make a profit.

I see lots of "I wouldn't fly this" comments. Well, since a non-stop will demand a premium, this flight isn't for you. The front cabin will make or break this flight and all others may connect in SIN, DXB, or BKK. Connections have alternatives, this will be the only non-stop.

The 789 and A350(in particular the LR) and 778 will open up far more ULH thanks to their superior economics vs. the 77L and A345. I intentionally put them in order of cost per flight.

I fully expect QF to open more routes, including to the USA. For example, more non-stop flights to DFW with the 789. SQ will compete from SIN and others will grow ULH. The world will become a smaller place.

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Re: Australia's first direct non-stop flight to ­Europe is believed to be just weeks away

Fri Oct 28, 2016 1:21 pm

LTU330 wrote:
downdata wrote:
vhebb wrote:
The negotiations include combining QFs international and domestic ops under one roof in Perth.

So the connection "nightmare" won't exist.


Still terrible if you have checked baggage. I missed my MEL-SYD connection by more than 1 hour. And the MEL international - domestic terminal are in the same building. The baggage claim and security took forever.


Why would you have to collect your checked baggage ? Surely it will go through to your final destination, or do things like that work differently in Australia ?


Australia is like just about every other country. You clear immigration and customs at your port of entry. Then, after leaving Customs, you re-check your bags, and then connect to your domestic flight. This is not like flying xxx-CDG-ZRH or even xxx-NRT-HKG where you are technically not entering the country at the transfer airport.
 
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DELTA711
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Re: Australia's first direct non-stop flight to ­Europe is believed to be just weeks away

Fri Oct 28, 2016 1:23 pm

I personally would like to see this happen... My father lives in Perth and have flown from Manchester a few time to visit via Dubai and Doha with Emirates and Qatar respectively... transfers have never been to much of an issue and relatively straight forward but I still find it a pain to get unsettled from one plane and then tramp thru an airport to get to the next one... myself would prefer to just commute down the London and get settled on one plane for the single flight... that would suit me but understand not others...
 
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Re: Australia's first direct non-stop flight to ­Europe is believed to be just weeks away

Fri Oct 28, 2016 1:26 pm

DolphinAir747 wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
I guess it's interesting for PER-LON O&D travelers (which number in the tens a day?) but there are already distance- and time-efficient 1-stop options SYD/BNE/MEL/ADL/CBR-LON so the benefit for most Australia-London travelers looks pretty small.

Yes, the config for ULH... one could hope for minimum 18.5 inch seat width and 33" pitch in coach and three pretty generous meal services.


I would imagine the O&D to be much much higher than that. PER area has well over a million people.


PER has a population of just over 2 million with around another 600,000 living in regional areas around the state. Outside of SYD, PER has the largest number of British people living in Australia
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Re: Australia's first direct non-stop flight to ­Europe is believed to be just weeks away

Fri Oct 28, 2016 1:38 pm

This flight has BHP Billiton written all over it.
 
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Re: Australia's first direct non-stop flight to ­Europe is believed to be just weeks away

Fri Oct 28, 2016 1:57 pm

qf789 wrote:
PER has a population of just over 2 million with around another 600,000 living in regional areas around the state. Outside of SYD, PER has the largest number of British people living in Australia


DolphinAir747 wrote:
I would imagine the O&D to be much much higher than that. PER area has well over a million people.


So, we have my guess (in the tens) and two rationalizations that disagreed but didn't offer their own guesses or links to actual data on passenger counts.
 
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VCEflyboy
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Re: Australia's first direct non-stop flight to ­Europe is believed to be just weeks away

Fri Oct 28, 2016 2:15 pm

BA used to operate daily 747 service back in the day when EK was not yet EK but being EK qantas' partner one would assume the competition won't be so stiff.
The problem is by 2018 oil prices will have bounced back and the 787 will be the norm rather than the exception which will make such a long flight uncompetitive.
 
southsidesilver
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Re: Australia's first direct non-stop flight to ­Europe is believed to be just weeks away

Fri Oct 28, 2016 2:17 pm

In Business class, Sure I could do it. In Economy....No.

Without being super picky my legs start to hurt when flying LHR-LAX in economy, I think for me I start to get uncomfortable around the 6-7 hour mark and that includes time when I get up. The problem I see lately on long flights is people start to get up and walk around, but there is hardly any space to do this now as the planes are smaller and there are just as many seats.

I would rather connect and enjoy the 3 hours on the ground to just walk around.
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incitatus
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Re: Australia's first direct non-stop flight to ­Europe is believed to be just weeks away

Fri Oct 28, 2016 2:32 pm

So many naysayers! If you are traveling for work and the departure and arrival times are right, you will do it. If you are traveling for personal reasons and the price is right, you will do it. If you can't do 18 hours on a plane, I get it. There are all sorts of people out there. There are even people who will not step onto a plane no matter what.

As for oil prices in 2018, if VCEflyboy's crystal ball works, I will gather a group of investors and buy it for a few hundred million.
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smi0006
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Re: Australia's first direct non-stop flight to ­Europe is believed to be just weeks away

Fri Oct 28, 2016 2:38 pm

incitatus wrote:
So many naysayers! If you are traveling for work and the departure and arrival times are right, you will do it. If you are traveling for personal reasons and the price is right, you will do it. If you can't do 18 hours on a plane, I get it. There are all sorts of people out there. There are even people who will not step onto a plane no matter what.

As for oil prices in 2018, if VCEflyboy's crystal ball works, I will gather a group of investors and buy it for a few hundred million.


A valid point - if you are going for work, and traveling economy, most likely (like me) you don't have a choice the boss chooses the most efficient route. For HVCs this could be a preferred turn saving option.
 
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ro1960
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Re: Australia's first direct non-stop flight to ­Europe is believed to be just weeks away

Fri Oct 28, 2016 9:43 pm

downdata wrote:
ro1960 wrote:
downdata wrote:
Again, what sane person would want to transit at PER? Inbound would just be a nightmare as people have to wait for an hour for their checked baggage, go through security/immigration, wait another hour to be bussed to a different terminal only to miss their domestic connection.


This is not specific to PER. It can happen almost anywhere for various reasons (very remote parking, gate not available, complicated transfer between terminals, etc).


Its specific to Australia :/


Then you've never been out of the country ;-)
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kriskim
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Re: Australia's first direct non-stop flight to ­Europe is believed to be just weeks away

Fri Oct 28, 2016 9:48 pm

qf789 wrote:
DolphinAir747 wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
I guess it's interesting for PER-LON O&D travelers (which number in the tens a day?) but there are already distance- and time-efficient 1-stop options SYD/BNE/MEL/ADL/CBR-LON so the benefit for most Australia-London travelers looks pretty small.

Yes, the config for ULH... one could hope for minimum 18.5 inch seat width and 33" pitch in coach and three pretty generous meal services.


I would imagine the O&D to be much much higher than that. PER area has well over a million people.


PER has a population of just over 2 million with around another 600,000 living in regional areas around the state. Outside of SYD, PER has the largest number of British people living in Australia


That might be true, but O&D from SYD and MEL are still much larger: (Australia - London O&D Market share)

SYD: 35%
MEL: 26%
PER: 14%
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DiscoverCSG
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Re: Australia's first direct non-stop flight to ­Europe is believed to be just weeks away

Fri Oct 28, 2016 10:04 pm

flyingphil wrote:
I would have thought you would need at least two sets of pilots and cabin crew for such a long flight.. sounds awful..

Why not go the other way? My last trip to Australia was Air New Zealand LHR - LAX, then. Virgin Australia LAX to Brisbane... only downside is that you cross the dateline and you technically lose a day!


BNE-LAX-LHR is 12617 miles
BNE-SIN-LHR is 10581 miles

So it's only a little farther to go via North America - many people would do this to save a few dollars.

PER-BNE-LAX-LHR is 14863 miles (the most direct real-world routing I could think of)
PER-LHR is 9009 miles, so less than 2/3 the long way around

You'd have to offer VERY much lower fares the long way from PER to entice many people to make their journey 50% farther with three times as many flight segments... and you'd be very unlikely to make much profit on that, in and of itself. By contrast, PER-LHR can offer higher fares and not tie up seats on three segments.

It's an interesting risk, and we'll see if QF takes the bait for what would be mostly a prestige route... and if so, how long they keep it.
 
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mariner
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Re: Australia's first direct non-stop flight to ­Europe is believed to be just weeks away

Fri Oct 28, 2016 10:09 pm

kriskim wrote:
That might be true, but O&D from SYD and MEL are still much larger: (Australia - London O&D Market share)

SYD: 35%
MEL: 26%
PER: 14%


Sure, but what's your point? You work with what you've got and to my knowledge, there is not an aircraft that can fly non-stop SYD-MEL-LHR, with a viable load.

Unquestionably, PER-LHR will get a lot of attention - a lot - because it would be the first commercial non-stop air service between Australia and the UK. And since any MEL/SYD-LHR flight requires a stop somewhere, that stop might as well be Perth. It isn't for everyone, but some will do it.

mariner
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kriskim
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Re: Australia's first direct non-stop flight to ­Europe is believed to be just weeks away

Fri Oct 28, 2016 10:51 pm

mariner wrote:
Sure, but what's your point? You work with what you've got and to my knowledge, there is not an aircraft that can fly non-stop SYD-MEL-LHR, with a viable load.

Unquestionably, PER-LHR will get a lot of attention - a lot - because it would be the first commercial non-stop air service between Australia and the UK. And since any MEL/SYD-LHR flight requires a stop somewhere, that stop might as well be Perth. It isn't for everyone, but some will do it.

mariner


I wasn't saying that they should do SYD/MEL-LHR non-stop.

My point was, that despite the British population, actual O&D numbers are vastly different, therefore making the population argument irrelevant in some cases. SYD/MEL will still have their respective daily A380 services viaDXB, so both of the largest markets will still have that option plus the other options from SQ, MH, TG, VN, CX, CZ, EY, EK, QR etc... The PER stop isn't more convenient too, there won't be any significant time savings, seperate terminals and customs being done mid way instead of at the end and start of the journey.

Yes some will go for the PER option, but will the traffic that currently flies viaME/Asia exPER/ADL/MEL/SYD simply gravitate towards the non-stop option? The connecting carriers will protect their market share by simply discounting fares, this new route will no doubt benefit PER, but I can only see its benefitting those living in PER/WA (maybe ADL) as the other cities have much better connecting opportunities via ME/Asia.
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mariner
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Re: Australia's first direct non-stop flight to ­Europe is believed to be just weeks away

Sat Oct 29, 2016 12:05 am

kriskim wrote:
My point was, that despite the British population, actual O&D numbers are vastly different, therefore making the population argument irrelevant in some cases. SYD/MEL will still have their respective daily A380 services viaDXB, so both of the largest markets will still have that option plus the other options from SQ, MH, TG, VN, CX, CZ, EY, EK, QR etc... The PER stop isn't more convenient too, there won't be any significant time savings, seperate terminals and customs being done mid way instead of at the end and start of the journey.


I had to stand in a long line to get a transit visa in PVG last week, flying CDG-PVG-AKL and go through customs - LOL. Some of those problems at PER can be resolved - it's my understanding, based on what Alan Joyce has said, is that they're trying to eliminate the two-terminal situation at PER:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... antas.html

"Mr Joyce said Qantas was liaising with airports to ensure the necessary infrastructure would be available to handle the new planes.
'For instance, for Perth to London, we'd need our international and domestic operations to be in the same terminal, we need Customs and Immigration, there's a lot of infrastructure and planning that needs to be there,' Joyce said."


I get the impression that they won't actually announce the flights until that has been resolved.

kriskim wrote:
Yes some will go for the PER option, but will the traffic that currently flies viaME/Asia exPER/ADL/MEL/SYD simply gravitate towards the non-stop option? The connecting carriers will protect their market share by simply discounting fares, this new route will no doubt benefit PER, but I can only see its benefitting those living in PER/WA (maybe ADL) as the other cities have much better connecting opportunities via ME/Asia.


I doubt they plan to pull a lot of traffic from their own MEL/SYD-LHR - why would they? The point of any new route is to boost the market not cannibalise existing routes, although I'm sure they'll be going for some of those who would otherwise transit Asia on other airlines. PER-LHR is another option and - I think - an attractive one, for a fair amount of business people and certainly for a lot of tourists - not necessarily the bucket and spade crowd, and, as above, there will be those flying it for the novelty. Yes, it will be of most benefit to those in PER/WA and perhaps ADL, and if Qantas is sensible they'll boost PER-AKL and time it to connect to the LHR flights. It's been shown that Kiwis love the one-stops to London - either via DXB/SIN etc or the other way via LAX.

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