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GE9X
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Re: Australia's first direct non-stop flight to ­Europe is believed to be just weeks away

Sat Oct 29, 2016 12:27 am

The plane will probably be premium heavy to reduce payload weight, but for economy travel I would not sit 19 hours on a plane, let alone a tight 9 abreast 787. Nightmare! Not to mention the higher probability of health risks (DVT) too. Although it's possible that Y would be 8 abreast, which would certainly help achieve the range even on a high-J plane, as PER-LHR is 7,829 nautical miles (9,009 mi / 14,499 km), beyond the 787-9's nominal range and certainly beyond its effective range at the standard high-density configuration.

I'm sure the Perth business and wealthy traveling community would love this flight though, and it's probably not aimed at connections. But so many of these ULH flights end up terminated after a few years because they're so challenging. Singapore couldn't make it work to EWR, although it's true they didn't have the lower cost 787 and the current oil prices. We'll see if it works out.

downdata wrote:
vhebb wrote:
The negotiations include combining QFs international and domestic ops under one roof in Perth.

So the connection "nightmare" won't exist.


Still terrible if you have checked baggage. I missed my MEL-SYD connection by more than 1 hour. And the MEL international - domestic terminal are in the same building. The baggage claim and security took forever.


Well it's no different than transiting through any Australian city on the way to another, so it doesn't affect LHR-PER anymore than it affects other international flights as far as connections are concerned. I agree this policy of retrieving checked luggage is a little bone headed, although it's much easier from a customs' officer perspective, as they can simply inspect the luggage right then and there instead of having to retrieve if from the luggage system, hoping it's not already loaded onto the plane.
 
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777Jet
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Re: Australia's first direct non-stop flight to ­Europe is believed to be just weeks away

Sat Oct 29, 2016 12:37 am

GE9X wrote:
But so many of these ULH flights end up terminated after a few years because they're so challenging. Singapore couldn't make it work to EWR, although it's true they didn't have the lower cost 787 and the current oil prices. We'll see if it works out.


SQ have experience on these ULH routes, as you point out. And, given that they have announced they will re-start SIN-USA non-stop ULH flights when they get the A350-900ULR, it indicates to me that they believe that these routes can work with these new generation more efficient twins. If not, they wouldn't be 'going there' again.
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zeke
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Re: Australia's first direct non-stop flight to ­Europe is believed to be just weeks away

Sat Oct 29, 2016 1:07 am

It's only a great circle distance of ~7800 nm, even at 737 speeds is should be more like 17.5 hrs. What gives with the 19 hrs ?
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cpd
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Re: Australia's first direct non-stop flight to ­Europe is believed to be just weeks away

Sat Oct 29, 2016 2:09 am

readytotaxi wrote:
19 hours on a plane seat, no thank you.
Much sooner take a break at SIN for a day, guess I'm getting to old and like my creature comforts.


You must be the only one, everyone else prefers direct flights, cheap ticket prices and ever decreasing amounts of room onboard the plane.
 
Viscount724
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Re: Australia's first direct non-stop flight to ­Europe is believed to be just weeks away

Sat Oct 29, 2016 2:20 am

sk736 wrote:
frigatebird wrote:
qf789 wrote:
It has previously been reported that QF will announce its first ULH route for the 787 in early 2017 to start in 2018,

It will be interesting to see how QF will configure their 787-9 for a 19 hour route. Without cargo revenue and a light passenger load, the fares would have to be steep to make it profitable, even with a 787.

LTU330 wrote:

Why would you have to collect your checked baggage ? Surely it will go through to your final destination, or do things like that work differently in Australia ?

When connecting to a domestic flight, you have to collect your baggage and go through customs before connecting to your domestic flight. Happens in most countries, when you arrive from a domestic flight you don't go through customs so you have to clear it when you arrive from your international flight.
I was in Norway last week, and had to collect my baggage at OSL before I could check in for my flight to EVE. I booked an evening flight to OSL and a domestic flight for the following morning with a night at an airport hotel to be sure I had enough time. Same for my flight to India next year, I'll have a night at a hotel at DEL before I connect to my flight to GAU.

Not in the UK. If, for example, you arrive at LHR on an international flight and connect to a domestic flight to MAN, you go through immigration but not Customs. When you arrive at MAN, if you have goods to declare you contact Customs by telephone (or very occasionally there will be Customs Officers present). It sounds crazy, but that's how it works here.


Same in Switzerland. If you arrive at ZRH and are connecting to a domestic flight to GVA, you only clear passport control at ZRH. No need to claim your bags.
 
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angusjt
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Re: Australia's first direct non-stop flight to ­Europe is believed to be just weeks away

Sat Oct 29, 2016 2:49 am

Maybe Perth - London will carry the QF1 flight number? QF have said that the 787 will be their new flagship aircraft
 
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GE9X
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Re: Australia's first direct non-stop flight to ­Europe is believed to be just weeks away

Sat Oct 29, 2016 3:08 am

zeke wrote:
It's only a great circle distance of ~7800 nm, even at 737 speeds is should be more like 17.5 hrs. What gives with the 19 hrs ?


17.5 is an optimal time given a straight great circle route and a constant airspeed of over Mach .8. Air traffic and weather reality dictates otherwise, the former especially since Heathrow is an often delayed airspace, and for the latter well I'm not familiar with the winds in the eastern Hemisphere but if it's anything like the northern Atlantic, then it can easily add an hour to the flight. The 19 hours is also probably a block time, which always include padding to account for minor delays without affecting schedules.
 
luxornv
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Re: Australia's first direct non-stop flight to ­Europe is believed to be just weeks away

Sat Oct 29, 2016 3:49 am

Aeromania wrote:
When they say weeks, just how many are they referring to? The Dreamliners won't enter service until a year from now: http://www.qantasnewsroom.com.au/media- ... reamliner/


They mean it in the same manner when someone asks you, "How far can you see with that camera?"
 
747m8te
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Re: Australia's first direct non-stop flight to ­Europe is believed to be just weeks away

Sat Oct 29, 2016 5:35 am

Living in Brisbane I would love this option personally. I am not a fan of DXB or EK....but I love Qantas and prefer them over the asian carriers. So at present my only options are BNE-SYD/MEL-DXB-LHR. Sure I would love QF to return to SIN-LHR...but that doesn't sound likely in the short term.

BNE-PER-LHR with QF all the way would be great (assuming they set up an international gate in QFs terminal in PER). Other cities would benefit as well ADL/DRW/CBR plus regionals in WA now having a one stop option to LHR with QF.

This would be about giving people options, for those outside SYD/MEL, or those not wanting to transit DXB.
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LJ
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Re: Australia's first direct non-stop flight to ­Europe is believed to be just weeks away

Sat Oct 29, 2016 7:42 am

smi0006 wrote:
A valid point - if you are going for work, and traveling economy, most likely (like me) you don't have a choice the boss chooses the most efficient route. For HVCs this could be a preferred turn saving option.


You mean effecient and value for money. My employer looks at the bottom line as well and saving a couple of hunderd Euro's on a J class fare with only 2 -3 hours extra travel on a 10+ hour journey means that it will opt for the cheaper option (and that also applies to CEO level). Most long haul travel at our company isn't time sensitive and thus price is taken into the equation (but given the fact that we're entitled to travel J on long haul nobody complains).
 
Qantas16
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Re: Australia's first direct non-stop flight to ­Europe is believed to be just weeks away

Sat Oct 29, 2016 8:40 am

angusjt wrote:
Maybe Perth - London will carry the QF1 flight number? QF have said that the 787 will be their new flagship aircraft


Unless it's a SYD-PER-LHR routing, I doubt it.
 
georgiabill
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Re: Australia's first direct non-stop flight to ­Europe is believed to be just weeks away

Sat Oct 29, 2016 2:06 pm

Most likely a very stupid question could QF'S 744ER do PER-LHR non stop without a significant payload hit? If it could without a to big of a hit why has QF not tried it as fuel prices are low for the moment.
 
DaufuskieGuy
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Re: Australia's first direct non-stop flight to ­Europe is believed to be just weeks away

Sat Oct 29, 2016 3:19 pm

georgiabill wrote:
Most likely a very stupid question could QF'S 744ER do PER-LHR non stop without a significant payload hit? If it could without a to big of a hit why has QF not tried it as fuel prices are low for the moment.


my guess is not enough demand for that many seats.
 
Luftymatt
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Re: Australia's first direct non-stop flight to ­Europe is believed to be just weeks away

Sat Oct 29, 2016 3:24 pm

vhebb wrote:
The negotiations include combining QFs international and domestic ops under one roof in Perth.

So the connection "nightmare" won't exist.


This makes a lot of sense.
chase the sun
 
sevenair
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Re: Australia's first direct non-stop flight to ­Europe is believed to be just weeks away

Sat Oct 29, 2016 3:29 pm

It's nothing more than a vanity project. The QF media machine will milk it for all it can to claim to have the first non stop service to Europe and what I imagine will be the worlds longest flight.
 
Planetalk
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Re: Australia's first direct non-stop flight to ­Europe is believed to be just weeks away

Sat Oct 29, 2016 7:04 pm

sevenair wrote:
It's nothing more than a vanity project. The QF media machine will milk it for all it can to claim to have the first non stop service to Europe and what I imagine will be the worlds longest flight.


Bingo. If launched it won't last, unless they are happy to fly around with 80% of the plane empty just for the PR. No-one in economy is going to pay a premium for this, for the vast majoirty of people it is less desirable than having a stop, especially on a 787. But fares will have to be higher than 1-stop services because the costs of operating such a flight are so high in terms of the fuel carried just to carry fuel, and crewing levels.

Combine that with the geograpphically constrained market it will be serving, unlike other long haul flights at hubs that pull in people from endless spokes, and it's hard to see the business case...
 
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zeke
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Re: Australia's first direct non-stop flight to ­Europe is believed to be just weeks away

Sat Oct 29, 2016 8:07 pm

GE9X wrote:
17.5 is an optimal time given a straight great circle route and a constant airspeed of over Mach .8. Air traffic and weather reality dictates otherwise, the former especially since Heathrow is an often delayed airspace, and for the latter well I'm not familiar with the winds in the eastern Hemisphere but if it's anything like the northern Atlantic, then it can easily add an hour to the flight. The 19 hours is also probably a block time, which always include padding to account for minor delays without affecting schedules.


M0.78, flown to LHR heaps of times, it's not that bad. You have flex tracks available over the Indian Ocean, EK et al have been using them for years.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
Kiwirob
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Re: Australia's first direct non-stop flight to ­Europe is believed to be just weeks away

Sat Oct 29, 2016 8:36 pm

There's a big difference between one stops via Asian and North American airports and a one stop via Perth with a 19 hour second leg, 12 hours is about my limit in a plane, the last few hours drag, I get a sore butt, knowing that there would be another 7 hours to go would drive me nuts.
 
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cougar15
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Re: Australia's first direct non-stop flight to ­Europe is believed to be just weeks away

Sat Oct 29, 2016 8:53 pm

georgiabill wrote:
Most likely a very stupid question could QF'S 744ER do PER-LHR non stop without a significant payload hit? If it could without a to big of a hit why has QF not tried it as fuel prices are low for the moment.


Not viable, payload hit would be absolutely significant, even if it´s called ER :ugeek: !
some you lose, others you can´t win!
 
sirdanilot
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Re: Australia's first direct non-stop flight to ­Europe is believed to be just weeks away

Sat Oct 29, 2016 10:34 pm

frigatebird wrote:
qf789 wrote:
It has previously been reported that QF will announce its first ULH route for the 787 in early 2017 to start in 2018,

It will be interesting to see how QF will configure their 787-9 for a 19 hour route. Without cargo revenue and a light passenger load, the fares would have to be steep to make it profitable, even with a 787.

LTU330 wrote:
downdata wrote:

Still terrible if you have checked baggage. I missed my MEL-SYD connection by more than 1 hour. And the MEL international - domestic terminal are in the same building. The baggage claim and security took forever.


Why would you have to collect your checked baggage ? Surely it will go through to your final destination, or do things like that work differently in Australia ?

When connecting to a domestic flight, you have to collect your baggage and go through customs before connecting to your domestic flight. Happens in most countries, when you arrive from a domestic flight you don't go through customs so you have to clear it when you arrive from your international flight.
I was in Norway last week, and had to collect my baggage at OSL before I could check in for my flight to EVE. I booked an evening flight to OSL and a domestic flight for the following morning with a night at an airport hotel to be sure I had enough time. Same for my flight to India next year, I'll have a night at a hotel at DEL before I connect to my flight to GAU.

Will they make it all economy+/business class or are there actually economy passengers who are willing to sit in a seat for 19 hours non stop? I'd much rather take a break somewhere especially if that means a cheaper ticket.

And when I go to brazil I don't have to recheck my bags when I have a connection to a domestic flight ! Maybe you have to do this when you continue to an airport such as CGH which has no international facilities. But even to a small airport such as BEL I did not have to do it, and that has only 3 international destinations which are all quite infrequent (paramaribo, lisbon, cayenne. maybe miami but I'm not sure).
 
Planetalk
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Re: Australia's first direct non-stop flight to ­Europe is believed to be just weeks away

Sat Oct 29, 2016 10:46 pm

sirdanilot wrote:
frigatebird wrote:
qf789 wrote:
It has previously been reported that QF will announce its first ULH route for the 787 in early 2017 to start in 2018,

It will be interesting to see how QF will configure their 787-9 for a 19 hour route. Without cargo revenue and a light passenger load, the fares would have to be steep to make it profitable, even with a 787.

LTU330 wrote:

Why would you have to collect your checked baggage ? Surely it will go through to your final destination, or do things like that work differently in Australia ?

When connecting to a domestic flight, you have to collect your baggage and go through customs before connecting to your domestic flight. Happens in most countries, when you arrive from a domestic flight you don't go through customs so you have to clear it when you arrive from your international flight.
I was in Norway last week, and had to collect my baggage at OSL before I could check in for my flight to EVE. I booked an evening flight to OSL and a domestic flight for the following morning with a night at an airport hotel to be sure I had enough time. Same for my flight to India next year, I'll have a night at a hotel at DEL before I connect to my flight to GAU.

Will they make it all economy+/business class or are there actually economy passengers who are willing to sit in a seat for 19 hours non stop? I'd much rather take a break somewhere especially if that means a cheaper ticket.

And when I go to brazil I don't have to recheck my bags when I have a connection to a domestic flight ! Maybe you have to do this when you continue to an airport such as CGH which has no international facilities. But even to a small airport such as BEL I did not have to do it, and that has only 3 international destinations which are all quite infrequent (paramaribo, lisbon, cayenne. maybe miami but I'm not sure).


I understand that's the system in most countries, usually when I've flown international and then to a domestic connection my bags have been checked through. Australia's infrastructure really isn't set up for interntational-domestic connections though, no idea why.

As for your first question, they've configured it with a regular economy section. It would be absolute hell, worse than a lot of the long distance bus journeys I've done in South America, and they at least have rest breaks. I for one would, as others have said, go insane. It's definitely at the point where a non-stop is less desirable, whatever their marketing will say...
 
sirdanilot
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Re: Australia's first direct non-stop flight to ­Europe is believed to be just weeks away

Sat Oct 29, 2016 10:53 pm

Planetalk wrote:
sirdanilot wrote:
frigatebird wrote:
It will be interesting to see how QF will configure their 787-9 for a 19 hour route. Without cargo revenue and a light passenger load, the fares would have to be steep to make it profitable, even with a 787.


When connecting to a domestic flight, you have to collect your baggage and go through customs before connecting to your domestic flight. Happens in most countries, when you arrive from a domestic flight you don't go through customs so you have to clear it when you arrive from your international flight.
I was in Norway last week, and had to collect my baggage at OSL before I could check in for my flight to EVE. I booked an evening flight to OSL and a domestic flight for the following morning with a night at an airport hotel to be sure I had enough time. Same for my flight to India next year, I'll have a night at a hotel at DEL before I connect to my flight to GAU.

Will they make it all economy+/business class or are there actually economy passengers who are willing to sit in a seat for 19 hours non stop? I'd much rather take a break somewhere especially if that means a cheaper ticket.

And when I go to brazil I don't have to recheck my bags when I have a connection to a domestic flight ! Maybe you have to do this when you continue to an airport such as CGH which has no international facilities. But even to a small airport such as BEL I did not have to do it, and that has only 3 international destinations which are all quite infrequent (paramaribo, lisbon, cayenne. maybe miami but I'm not sure).


I understand that's the system in most countries, usually when I've flown international and then to a domestic connection my bags have been checked through. Australia's infrastructure really isn't set up for interntational-domestic connections though, no idea why.

As for your first question, they've configured it with a regular economy section. It would be absolute hell, worse than a lot of the long distance bus journeys I've done in South America, and they at least have rest breaks. I for one would, as others have said, go insane. It's definitely at the point where a non-stop is less desirable, whatever their marketing will say...

Yes in regular economy 19 hours is just too much. I believe that way back when there was a new york - singapore non stop, it was a business-only flight?

Although I would take the 19 horus non stop to Perth in economy just for the sake of 'having done it' , the price would have to be very competitive in order for me to do it, let alone that I would pay a premium for it.

In J or F I think it would be fine, but I cannot afford those fares myself.
 
ben175
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Re: Australia's first direct non-stop flight to ­Europe is believed to be just weeks away

Sat Oct 29, 2016 11:35 pm

I love how people act like 19 hours in an economy seat is blasphemy, when EK already operate many routes in the 16-17.5 hour range.

Plus I think it would actually be more like 18 hr 10 min eastbound, 16 hr 55 westbound when you take into account winds etc.

I am hoping this rumour materialises, it would be fantastic for Perth and the WA economy.
 
timtam
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Re: Australia's first direct non-stop flight to ­Europe is believed to be just weeks away

Sun Oct 30, 2016 7:00 am

Dallas to Sydney is around 15.5 hours and many people take that flight in economy. So why wouldnt they put up with a couple more hours to avoid an unwanted stop-over in Dubai?

If you want to fly QF:
MEL to LHR is 23.5hrs.
SYD to LHR is 25hrs - arriving at 6am.

If you think about the timing compared to the Sydney if the flight leaves Perth in the afternoon it should be able to arrive in London on the day prior to the current Sydney/Melbourne flights. For a business traveler this is worth gold.

If your in Sydney you would still take the Sydney flight. If your in Perth you would take the direct flight. If your in Adelaide you would probably take the Perth flight over the Sydney flight, particularly if your a business traveler and can arrive the day prior by going via Perth. If you were in Brisbane, you would have to seriously consider the Perth flight over going via SYD (where you lose time transferring terminals).

The QF flight from London arrives in Melbourne too late for connecting flights to other cities. This cuts the options available to non Melbourne travelers coming back from London to only 1 flight per day on QF (so seats can be very limited on this flight) or taking Emirates direct into your City.

Thinking about the flight itself.......leaving around 3pm or 4pm, get up in the air, have a meal, watch a movie or do some work, put down the lie flat business class seat into a bed at around 10pm, sleep for 8 hours or so, have breakfast, watch another movie/do some work, land in London, clear customs, get in a cab, get through checkin and into your hotel late in the evening London time, get to bed and wake up in the morning refreshed and all ready to go to work/start your trip at the same as the tired travelers on the Sydney flight are just clearing customs in Heathrow.

Going direct from Perth is a big winner for QF.
 
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BoeingVista
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Re: Australia's first direct non-stop flight to ­Europe is believed to be just weeks away

Sun Oct 30, 2016 10:44 am

The DXB connection to Europe has shaved several effective hours off of the trip, EX420/1 is a very popular flight and very pleasent on an A380, always been nearly full when I've taken it, now would I swap the one stopper on a A380 for 19 hours in a 787-9.. nope I would not. I may be tempted to do it in an A380 though.

Is this flight even possible LHR-PER carrying 1500km of fuel to divert to ADL with a 787-9?
BV
 
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readytotaxi
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Re: Australia's first direct non-stop flight to ­Europe is believed to be just weeks away

Sun Oct 30, 2016 12:20 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
. . . . . knowing that there would be another 7 hours to go would drive me nuts.


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Viscount724
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Re: Australia's first direct non-stop flight to ­Europe is believed to be just weeks away

Mon Oct 31, 2016 1:39 am

flyingphil wrote:
I would have thought you would need at least two sets of pilots and cabin crew for such a long flight.. sounds awful..

Why not go the other way? My last trip to Australia was Air New Zealand LHR - LAX, then. Virgin Australia LAX to Brisbane... only downside is that you cross the dateline and you technically lose a day!


You lose the day on both routes, just more gradually on the eastern hemisphere routing instead of all at once on the route via North America.
 
trs80
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Re: Australia's first direct non-stop flight to ­Europe is believed to be just weeks away

Tue Nov 01, 2016 3:35 pm

BoeingVista wrote:
The DXB connection to Europe has shaved several effective hours off of the trip, EX420/1 is a very popular flight and very pleasent on an A380, always been nearly full when I've taken it, now would I swap the one stopper on a A380 for 19 hours in a 787-9.. nope I would not. I may be tempted to do it in an A380 though.

Is this flight even possible LHR-PER carrying 1500km of fuel to divert to ADL with a 787-9?


PER is getting a CAT IIIb ILS by 2018, almost certainly at the request of Qantas for this flight: https://www.perthairport.com.au/Home/co ... f-the-past

Also KGI has had A330s divert to it, no need to go all the way to ADL. Oh, but international flights have to go to ADL for customs https://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/wa/a/ ... rport-fog/
 
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BoeingVista
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Re: Australia's first direct non-stop flight to ­Europe is believed to be just weeks away

Tue Nov 01, 2016 3:57 pm

trs80 wrote:
BoeingVista wrote:
The DXB connection to Europe has shaved several effective hours off of the trip, EX420/1 is a very popular flight and very pleasent on an A380, always been nearly full when I've taken it, now would I swap the one stopper on a A380 for 19 hours in a 787-9.. nope I would not. I may be tempted to do it in an A380 though.

Is this flight even possible LHR-PER carrying 1500km of fuel to divert to ADL with a 787-9?


PER is getting a CAT IIIb ILS by 2018, almost certainly at the request of Qantas for this flight: https://www.perthairport.com.au/Home/co ... f-the-past

Also KGI has had A330s divert to it, no need to go all the way to ADL.


Getting CATIIIb will make diversions less frequent but will make no difference to the statutory diversion fuel carried.

Most probably a domestic A330, I don't think KGI has ever taken an inbound international widebody. Up to CASA of course if they allow it or not but I don't think they currently do.
BV
 
Revo1059
Posts: 133
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Re: Australia's first direct non-stop flight to ­Europe is believed to be just weeks away

Tue Nov 01, 2016 4:18 pm

Those A/C will have really high utilization. 19hours/day. How long will one sit until it goes back out?

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