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KLDC10
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Re: AA aircraft on fire @ORD

Sat Oct 29, 2016 11:07 pm

From the NTSB on Twitter; "Examination of engine revealed that the stage 2 disk of high pressure turbine failed"

https://twitter.com/NTSB_Newsroom/statu ... 2389156864
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piedmontf284000
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Re: AA aircraft on fire @ORD

Sat Oct 29, 2016 11:09 pm

"Investigators were scouring Chicago's O'Hare International Airport on Saturday after an engine caught fire on an American Airlines plane attempting to take off on Friday, as a source said a detached engine part had hit a nearby building, something the design should have prevented.

The O'Hare incident marks the third uncontained GE engine failure in little over a year, following a British Airways Boeing 777 in September 2015 and a Southwest Airlines Boeing 737 in August."

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-chica ... SKCN12T0Q7
 
trnswrld
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Re: AA aircraft on fire @ORD

Sun Oct 30, 2016 12:48 am

ContentCreator wrote:
I personally think the flight attendants should be disciplined for allowing passengers to leave with bags if the passengers are being punished for trying to.

I definitely do not agree with this. I mean what do you want them to do? Slow down the evacuation process and get into arguments with passengers about leaving their items? I mean come on, their job is to get people off the plane asap. That's a large airplane and they can't be all around the cabin at once telling people to do and not do. Get people out of that airplane and if someone has a carry on yes that's ridiculous and it sucks, but at that point whatever.
 
blacksoviet
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Re: AA aircraft on fire @ORD

Sun Oct 30, 2016 1:03 am

kaitak wrote:
Just looking at Flightradar now and it seems to be operational?

Looks like N345AN is a total loss. One of the newer ones too - delivered in 2003. Still, most important thing is, no injuries or fatalities.


Will Boeing replace the wing?
 
ckfred
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Re: AA aircraft on fire @ORD

Sun Oct 30, 2016 1:23 am

In an emergency evacuation, I would grab my phone (probably in the seat pocket), so that I could communicate after getting off the plane. I would probably have a number of people calling to see if I'm ok.

If it's raining hard or below freezing, I might grab my coat. You never know how long who might have to stand in the grass or on the runway before a bus arrives.

I would not grab a laptop, but understand that a lot of laptops are owned by employers and have sensitive information. My wife worked for a company that prohibited use of laptops or doing any work in public places out of fear of corporate espionage. I'm sure that enters the minds of some people.

Where is the plane now? How long might it take AA to decide whether to repair it or declare it a loss? Based on the plane's age, I'm assuming that this was part of the order to replace the TWA 767 fleet.
 
BHM
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Re: AA aircraft on fire @ORD

Sun Oct 30, 2016 1:28 am

KLDC10 wrote:
From the NTSB on Twitter; "Examination of engine revealed that the stage 2 disk of high pressure turbine failed"

https://twitter.com/NTSB_Newsroom/statu ... 2389156864




Is this "stage 2 disk of high pressure turbine" protected by yhe engine shroud or is it further in the back of the engine?
 
blacksoviet
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Re: AA aircraft on fire @ORD

Sun Oct 30, 2016 1:34 am

Why did AA replace TWA 767s? How old were TWAs 763s?
 
PlanesNTrains
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Re: AA aircraft on fire @ORD

Sun Oct 30, 2016 1:37 am

blacksoviet wrote:
Why did AA replace TWA 767s? How old were TWAs 763s?


Different engines?
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
prebennorholm
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Re: AA aircraft on fire @ORD

Sun Oct 30, 2016 1:55 am

BHM wrote:
Is this "stage 2 disk of high pressure turbine" protected by the engine shroud or is it further in the back of the engine?

The shrouds are designed to protect single blade failure.

When entire disks fail, then it is normally uncontained. That counts all way from fan to last LP turbine. Disk failures are luckily extremely rare.
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
Capt.Fantastic
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Re: AA aircraft on fire @ORD

Sun Oct 30, 2016 2:49 am

To get an idea of what it's like during a hectic evacuation of a burning airplane, listen to this flight crew describe their ordeal aboard TWA Flight 843. The L-1011 caught fire after it aborted takeoff from JFK. There are three parts; the link to part one is below.

http://youtu.be/syw_cYYhrZ4
 
PlanesNTrains
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Re: AA aircraft on fire @ORD

Sun Oct 30, 2016 3:27 am

Capt.Fantastic wrote:
To get an idea of what it's like during a hectic evacuation of a burning airplane, listen to this flight crew describe their ordeal aboard TWA Flight 843. The L-1011 caught fire after it aborted takeoff from JFK. There are three parts; the link to part one is below.

http://youtu.be/syw_cYYhrZ4


Very interesting to watch. I believe it said they made an emergency landing after takeoff so a bit of a different dynamic, but the end result was the same.
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
blacksoviet
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Re: AA aircraft on fire @ORD

Sun Oct 30, 2016 3:44 am

Good thing the 767 production line is still open.
 
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litz
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Re: AA aircraft on fire @ORD

Sun Oct 30, 2016 4:08 am

DL_Mech wrote:
Dalmd88 wrote:
It has been done. Many years ago DL had a MD88 damaged at LGA. The wing was replaced. It was an almost new airplane. I doubt that AA will go to those lengths for this airframe


It happened in 1991 at ATL. McDonnell Douglas replaced the left wing (new from factory) and part of the fuselage skin. The plane is still flying today.

http://www.ntsb.gov/about/employment/_layouts/ntsb.aviation/brief.aspx?ev_id=20001212X16907&key=1


Well, if you had to pick somewhere to do that level of surgery on a MD narrowbody, DL's techops is a good place to be at...
 
cwa2toa
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Re: AA aircraft on fire @ORD

Sun Oct 30, 2016 4:19 am

blackbox67 wrote:
what a re-occurence. It happened to AA 767 about 10 years ago while making engine test runs at LAX.

Image

http://www.lotustalk.com/forums/f68/aa- ... ops-24033/
Image



I was sitting in my office in Redondo Beach and felt the shockwave there. I immediately turned on KNX and whatever channel had the local news. I was upstairs with an open window facing north. Scared me. My husband was in Westchester and he said he could feel the boom and then saw the smoke.

As much as I count on the things I bring on board, if I was in a situation like this, I'd get myself off the plane pronto and worry about it later. I wonder if the outfit that cleaned up all the passenger luggage from the US1549 crash will do the same for this one.
 
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litz
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Re: AA aircraft on fire @ORD

Sun Oct 30, 2016 4:20 am

There are reports of turbine pieces found several thousand feet from the accident scene, including one which went through the roof of a UPS warehouse.
 
BHM
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Re: AA aircraft on fire @ORD

Sun Oct 30, 2016 5:09 am

prebennorholm wrote:
BHM wrote:
Is this "stage 2 disk of high pressure turbine" protected by the engine shroud or is it further in the back of the engine?

The shrouds are designed to protect single blade failure.

When entire disks fail, then it is normally uncontained. That counts all way from fan to last LP turbine. Disk failures are luckily extremely rare.



Thank you for that explanation.
 
ckfred
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Re: AA aircraft on fire @ORD

Sun Oct 30, 2016 5:28 am

blacksoviet wrote:
Why did AA replace TWA 767s? How old were TWAs 763s?


TWA didn't have a large number of 763s. Rather than deal with a subfleet with P&W engines and other differences, AA decided to replace those 763s.
 
quiet1
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Re: AA aircraft on fire @ORD

Sun Oct 30, 2016 5:45 am

KarelXWB wrote:


First time I've ever noticed a crew member without a watch.
 
blacksoviet
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Re: AA aircraft on fire @ORD

Sun Oct 30, 2016 5:58 am

quiet1 wrote:
KarelXWB wrote:


First time I've ever noticed a crew member without a watch.

Does the 767 have a cockpit clock?
 
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Aesma
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Re: AA aircraft on fire @ORD

Sun Oct 30, 2016 5:58 am

About the luggage issue, we know that lost checked luggage compensation is pitiful, so maybe airlines should agree on a regulation or something that if you're evacuated and your luggage is not recovered because fire, water etc., then you get 10000€/$. Some passengers will have more value than that in their luggage, but certainly not most of them. It would not be a huge cost to airlines as either the plane is really damaged and that compensation would be a small portion of the total cost (and could be included in the airframe's insurance) or most luggage should be recoverable and no compensation owed (no compensation linked to the luggage I mean).
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
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flyPIT
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Re: AA aircraft on fire @ORD

Sun Oct 30, 2016 6:37 am

litz wrote:
There are reports of turbine pieces found several thousand feet from the accident scene, including one which went through the roof of a UPS warehouse.


Heard the same.

quiet1 wrote:
KarelXWB wrote:


First time I've ever noticed a crew member without a watch.


It's in his right hand.
FLYi
 
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cougar15
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Re: AA aircraft on fire @ORD

Sun Oct 30, 2016 7:59 am

So, the avherald have updated their coverage & as the Doc & other posters above suggested, it was a disc failure. The turbine disc end up 1000M/3000 Ft away in a UPS warehouse! Ouch! That was one mighty blowup!
some you lose, others you can´t win!
 
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AirlineCritic
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Re: AA aircraft on fire @ORD

Sun Oct 30, 2016 8:36 am

cougar15 wrote:
So, the avherald have updated their coverage & as the Doc & other posters above suggested, it was a disc failure. The turbine disc end up 1000M/3000 Ft away in a UPS warehouse! Ouch! That was one mighty blowup!


I am glad it didn't go through the passenger compartment on its way.

(As an aside, I heard that there were reports of badly hurt passengers as well as other reports saying just minor injuries. Hoping the latter is right. Do we have a final word on this?)
 
WIederling
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Re: AA aircraft on fire @ORD

Sun Oct 30, 2016 9:53 am

AirlineCritic wrote:
cougar15 wrote:
So, the avherald have updated their coverage & as the Doc & other posters above suggested, it was a disc failure. The turbine disc end up 1000M/3000 Ft away in a UPS warehouse! Ouch! That was one mighty blowup!


I am glad it didn't go through the passenger compartment on its way.

(As an aside, I heard that there were reports of badly hurt passengers as well as other reports saying just minor injuries. Hoping the latter is right. Do we have a final word on this?)


Interesting to see on AvHerald that initial perception was burst tires caused by FO thingies on the runway.

sidetrack:
wonder if this is just a bad luck cluster or some kind of deterioration in the industry depressing reliability of parts.
Murphy is an optimist
 
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c933103
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Re: AA aircraft on fire @ORD

Sun Oct 30, 2016 10:41 am

The plane is only half-filled, right? The evacuation time would have been even longer if there're more people on it
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blackbox67
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Re: AA aircraft on fire @ORD

Sun Oct 30, 2016 10:43 am

 
dragon6172
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Re: AA aircraft on fire @ORD

Sun Oct 30, 2016 10:53 am

blackbox67 wrote:

HP Turbine should be further aft, behind the combustion chamber. Item 56 in this drawing I believe.

http://www.air.flyingway.com/up/pic/4fcbf22208.jpg
Phrogs Phorever
 
StTim
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Re: AA aircraft on fire @ORD

Sun Oct 30, 2016 12:46 pm

Yes that is a low pressure compressor part of the engine.

Compressors before the combustors. Turbines after the combusters.
 
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blackbox67
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Re: AA aircraft on fire @ORD

Sun Oct 30, 2016 1:57 pm

 
lowbank
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Re: AA aircraft on fire @ORD

Sun Oct 30, 2016 2:26 pm

The Discs in Turbine engines are designed NOT to fail. This is because there is so much energy created when a disc fails that it is impossible to contain the failed parts. Well when I say impossible, I mean the weight of the engine would be too high for it to fly if it was designed to contain a disc failure.
Lukily the failure mode means that discs normally fail on take off. Crack propagation goes in cycles, The highest stress a disc sees is on take off. Cracks normally dont propagate during the rest off the flight. Hence each time you take off the crack propagates until there is not enough uncracked material to resist the loads and it fails catastrophically, as in this case.
Every days a school day.
 
CF-CPI
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Re: AA aircraft on fire @ORD

Sun Oct 30, 2016 2:43 pm

lowbank wrote:
The Discs in Turbine engines are designed NOT to fail. This is because there is so much energy created when a disc fails that it is impossible to contain the failed parts. Well when I say impossible, I mean the weight of the engine would be too high for it to fly if it was designed to contain a disc failure.
Lukily the failure mode means that discs normally fail on take off. Crack propagation goes in cycles, The highest stress a disc sees is on take off. Cracks normally dont propagate during the rest off the flight. Hence each time you take off the crack propagates until there is not enough uncracked material to resist the loads and it fails catastrophically, as in this case.


It will be interesting to see what detailed analysis shows in this case. Since the relevant parts (including part of the turbine found at the UPS warehouse) are readily available, the origins of the mechanical failure should be discernible.

United 232 at Sioux City tossed a fan disk which was later found to have crack that went undetected during maintenance and inspection, and whose origins were a manufacturing issue some years before. This resulted in UA and GE pointing fingers at each other for years. I'm sure maintenance and inspection records for N345An will be scoured for similar info.
 
KLDC10
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Re: AA aircraft on fire @ORD

Sun Oct 30, 2016 3:02 pm

lowbank wrote:
The Discs in Turbine engines are designed NOT to fail. This is because there is so much energy created when a disc fails that it is impossible to contain the failed parts. Well when I say impossible, I mean the weight of the engine would be too high for it to fly if it was designed to contain a disc failure.
Lukily the failure mode means that discs normally fail on take off. Crack propagation goes in cycles, The highest stress a disc sees is on take off. Cracks normally dont propagate during the rest off the flight. Hence each time you take off the crack propagates until there is not enough uncracked material to resist the loads and it fails catastrophically, as in this case.


This is mostly correct, but it is worth pointing out that the catastrophic failure at LAX occurred as the engine was been spooled down.
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lowbank
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Re: AA aircraft on fire @ORD

Sun Oct 30, 2016 3:33 pm

In life everthing has its exceptions.
We Use Cycles to life parts, we do High cycle Fatique tests and Low cycle fatique tests.
Also engines are run almost permanently doing tests , one of the original T900 test engines is still running tests on high life parts.
I am not sure if the event you mention caused the change in NDT lines but I think it was. Part of the investigation found that the water used to clean a part before going into the penetrant was holding in cracks and preventing the penetrant from going into the cracks preventing them from being found. Parts now have to go into an oven dry before penetrant now.
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Web500sjc
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Re: AA aircraft on fire @ORD

Sun Oct 30, 2016 5:22 pm

quiet1 wrote:
KarelXWB wrote:


First time I've ever noticed a crew member without a watch.



All IFR certified aircraft have are required to have clocks installed in the aircraft.

And no the pilots wrist watch doesn't count, someone has already asked the FAA.
Boiler Up!
 
777PHX
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Re: AA aircraft on fire @ORD

Sun Oct 30, 2016 5:37 pm

blacksoviet wrote:
Why did AA replace TWA 767s? How old were TWAs 763s?


TW's small 767 fleet was a hodgepodge of different aircraft and IIRC, they all had Pratts, which would have been an oddball in AA's fleet. They may have also had unfavorable leases like some of the other TW aircraft did.

AA decided it was easier to eliminate those aircraft fairly quickly upon consummating the acquisition and buy new ones, rather than maintain a small subfleet. I'm not sure why they even needed to replace them in the first place, considering AA canceled a number of the TW 767 routes - STL-LGW, TLV, RUH, etc.
 
strfyr51
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Re: AA aircraft on fire @ORD

Sun Oct 30, 2016 5:50 pm

I saw it on Local TV here in Chicago. Looks like the rt engine and Pylon They said they shot the HRD Bottles into the rt engine so I'm betting the fire might not have been in the engine but maybe the pylon fuel lines as it was flaming above the fuselage from the opposite side where the cameras were ..
All the video was from the LH side of the fuselage while all the Fire was from the RH side Glad all the people got off safely some of those dimwits took their luggage rather than getting their butts off that burning plane..
 
blacksoviet
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Re: AA aircraft on fire @ORD

Sun Oct 30, 2016 7:40 pm

777PHX wrote:
blacksoviet wrote:
Why did AA replace TWA 767s? How old were TWAs 763s?


TW's small 767 fleet was a hodgepodge of different aircraft and IIRC, they all had Pratts, which would have been an oddball in AA's fleet. They may have also had unfavorable leases like some of the other TW aircraft did.

AA decided it was easier to eliminate those aircraft fairly quickly upon consummating the acquisition and buy new ones, rather than maintain a small subfleet. I'm not sure why they even needed to replace them in the first place, considering AA canceled a number of the TW 767 routes - STL-LGW, TLV, RUH, etc.


Does AA have the youngest passenger 767s in North America?
 
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lightsaber
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Re: AA aircraft on fire @ORD

Sun Oct 30, 2016 7:50 pm

The proceeces to keep this from happening are very strict. The double (or tripple) melting of the metal, x-rays, strict limits on fatigue life and acounting for wear and damage. There is nothing that can be done if this (IIRC) 180 pound part fails and they usually (almost always?) split into 3 equal mass parts due to the nature of the forces. I'm not surprised to hear the parts went long distances, for they will. They'll go right through a cabin, including a row of passengers, without slowing much. This is the 'not talked about' worst case scenario for a manufacturing or maintenance escape.

It isn't the first incident on the CF6, but the prior ones had corrective actions that were fixed. (One happened right after a PW4000 incident too.) GE has good processes, I'll be between the FAA and them they'll fix the issue. But a root cause must be found.

piedmontf284000 wrote:
"Investigators were scouring Chicago's O'Hare International Airport on Saturday after an engine caught fire on an American Airlines plane attempting to take off on Friday, as a source said a detached engine part had hit a nearby building, something the design should have prevented.

The O'Hare incident marks the third uncontained GE engine failure in little over a year, following a British Airways Boeing 777 in September 2015 and a Southwest Airlines Boeing 737 in August."

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-chica ... SKCN12T0Q7

Third incident is bad. Something is wrong in a process. No need for pitch forks and torches, but something needs to be improved.


Lightsaber
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9w748capt
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Re: AA aircraft on fire @ORD

Sun Oct 30, 2016 7:53 pm

Yeah - my wife and I are going to be on an AA 767 to HNL in 2 weeks. Hopefully AA inspects the hell out of these things between now and then!
 
caverunner17
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Re: AA aircraft on fire @ORD

Sun Oct 30, 2016 8:25 pm

9w748capt wrote:
Yeah - my wife and I are going to be on an AA 767 to HNL in 2 weeks. Hopefully AA inspects the hell out of these things between now and then!

When you consider how many hundreds to thousands of 767 flights there are daily, the chances of an incident are slim to none.
 
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rikkus67
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Re: AA aircraft on fire @ORD

Sun Oct 30, 2016 9:22 pm

trnswrld wrote:
ContentCreator wrote:
I personally think the flight attendants should be disciplined for allowing passengers to leave with bags if the passengers are being punished for trying to.

I definitely do not agree with this. I mean what do you want them to do? Slow down the evacuation process and get into arguments with passengers about leaving their items? I mean come on, their job is to get people off the plane asap. That's a large airplane and they can't be all around the cabin at once telling people to do and not do. Get people out of that airplane and if someone has a carry on yes that's ridiculous and it sucks, but at that point whatever.


Once the passengers are cleared of the aircraft, and everyone is safe... anyone having carry-on luggage with them should be charged with obstructing evacuation.
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9w748capt
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Re: AA aircraft on fire @ORD

Sun Oct 30, 2016 9:26 pm

strfyr51 wrote:
some of those dimwits took their luggage rather than getting their butts off that burning plane..


Come on now - don't you know that's what the cool kids on a.net do these days?
 
9w748capt
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Re: AA aircraft on fire @ORD

Sun Oct 30, 2016 9:29 pm

caverunner17 wrote:
9w748capt wrote:
Yeah - my wife and I are going to be on an AA 767 to HNL in 2 weeks. Hopefully AA inspects the hell out of these things between now and then!

When you consider how many hundreds to thousands of 767 flights there are daily, the chances of an incident are slim to none.


That's true of any airliner, period. But something seems to be up with GE engines failing lately.
 
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KarelXWB
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Re: AA aircraft on fire @ORD

Sun Oct 30, 2016 9:40 pm

Just wow:

NTSB briefing: a piece of the engine disk of #AA383 was found in a UPS warehouse about 2,920 feet away from the accident site.

Keep in mind the engine that failed was on the north side of the plane as it traveled. UPS is 3,000 feet south.


https://twitter.com/NTSB_Newsroom/statu ... 4772946944
https://twitter.com/jonostrower/status/ ... 7249099776
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
777PHX
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Re: AA aircraft on fire @ORD

Sun Oct 30, 2016 10:17 pm

blacksoviet wrote:
Does AA have the youngest passenger 767s in North America?


They're definitely among the youngest and they appear to be the youngest out of the Big 3. Hawaiian received a handful of 763s around the same time AA received their last ones, but it appears AA's youngest is younger than HA's youngest.
 
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scbriml
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Re: AA aircraft on fire @ORD

Sun Oct 30, 2016 10:44 pm

caverunner17 wrote:
When you consider how many hundreds to thousands of 767 flights there are daily, the chances of an incident are slim to none.


I've told you a million times not to exaggerate! ;)

You're easily two orders of magnitude out there.
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VirginFlyer
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Re: AA aircraft on fire @ORD

Mon Oct 31, 2016 1:02 am

scbriml wrote:
caverunner17 wrote:
When you consider how many hundreds to thousands of 767 flights there are daily, the chances of an incident are slim to none.


I've told you a million times not to exaggerate! ;)

You're easily two orders of magnitude out there.

You're saying there are less than 100 767 flights daily? I know the type is on its way out, but with over 700 still in service according to World Airliner Census 2016, I'd be surprised if there aren't hundreds to thousands of 767 flights each day worldwide.

V/F
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litz
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Re: AA aircraft on fire @ORD

Mon Oct 31, 2016 2:55 am

Re: GE failures .... the 777 failures aren't a CF6 engine ... that's a GE90.

There seem to have been four major uncontained disc failures on the CF6 (of various variants) ... UA232, the engine test/run-up on the AA 767 at LAX, the engine test/run-up on the USAir 767 in PHL, and now this one ...

Unless, I'm mistaken, all of these were in the HPT section, right?

Now think about the sheer number of CF6 engines that have been, or are still, in service world wide, and the number of flights those have taken throughout history. That's a failure percentage down near statistical zero.
 
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aerolimani
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Re: AA aircraft on fire @ORD

Mon Oct 31, 2016 3:06 am

ckfred wrote:
If it's raining hard or below freezing, I might grab my coat. You never know how long who might have to stand in the grass or on the runway before a bus arrives.

One should always put their shoes back on when descent begins. Some passengers suffered frost-bitten feet when that AC A320 touched down short of the runway in Halifax. Or, better yet… just don't take them off, and if you suffer swollen feet, buy a pair of compression socks for your next flight.
 
D L X
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Re: AA aircraft on fire @ORD

Mon Oct 31, 2016 3:32 am

By the way, check out some freakin' professionals handing this situation!

https://soundcloud.com/ryan-ewing-8/aa3 ... liveatcnet
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