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tullamarine
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Chaotic Evacuations may Lead to Recertification

Sun Oct 30, 2016 10:26 pm

Interesting article in the West Australian today regarding potential fallout from the recent spate of chaotic evacuations of aircraft following on-ground incidents such as the AA 763 over the weekend. Aircraft are certified for full evacuation in 90 seconds with only 50% of exits available. This has always been a bit dubious given the evacuation trials are with trained manufacturer personnel who know what to do and are mobile. In reality, passengers come in all shapes and sizes and vary from very young to infirm.

Recent evacuations have taken up to 270 seconds or 3 times the legislated maximum, principally because passengers have been trying to retireve cabin baggage. This has led to speculation as to what FAA and EASA will do in response. The options are:
    Recertification - Not attractive given it could massively reduce the passenger capacity of just about all aircraft types as well as triggering the retirement of grandfathering clauses for some planes particularly 737s.
    Ban all cabin baggage except small purse. Probably reasonable response but would severely impact frequent business travellers etc plus raise the issue of what happens with laptops where they must not be in hold luggage
    Lock all overhead bins for take-off and landing. This is the best response as it overcomes the issue of people retrieving bags in emergencies as well as stopping pax standing up and opoening lockers when aircraft are still taxiing to the gate

Link to the article can be found here https://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/33048004/fallout-from-chaotic-passenger-evacuations-could-triple-airfares/#page1
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mjoelnir
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Re: Chaotic Evacuations may Lead to Recertification

Sun Oct 30, 2016 11:16 pm

I find this idea of locking the overhead bins pretty strange. If it would be luggage storage only, but I usually store my winter coat there during the flight. Do you want to throw me off the plane in a storm and -20°C without my winter coat?
 
teriyaki
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Re: Chaotic Evacuations may Lead to Recertification

Sun Oct 30, 2016 11:23 pm

Yes. Because where do you draw the line? What about the jacket inside a bag? Inside a backpack? Inside your luggage?

The main priority should be to get all passengers off the plane in the minimum amount of time. No ifs ands or buts.
 
johns624
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Re: Chaotic Evacuations may Lead to Recertification

Sun Oct 30, 2016 11:27 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
I find this idea of locking the overhead bins pretty strange. If it would be luggage storage only, but I usually store my winter coat there during the flight. Do you want to throw me off the plane in a storm and -20°C without my winter coat?
The plane fire will keep you warm. Or, you can just keep your coat with you...what a concept!
 
KLDC10
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Re: Chaotic Evacuations may Lead to Recertification

Sun Oct 30, 2016 11:33 pm

Banning all cabin luggage would be a drastic, and ridiculous step. US Airlines charge for checked baggage in coach/economy, and the public fallout from being forced to pay to check in their luggage would be huge. And seriously, we'd be expected to store expensive electronic items in a bag which can't be locked (unless by a TSA-Approved padlock) and just expect that it will still be there when we arrive at our destination? Baggage theft occurs, both inside and outside the USA.

It's a ridiculous idea on another level too because it would constitute oppressive legislation that affects all passengers, based on the tiny likelihood of an incident occurring. It would amount to inconveniencing millions of passengers every day - and who's to say it would have any affect on the ability of the average passenger to evacuate an aircraft speedily? Goodness knows most don't pay the slightest bit of attention to the safety briefing. I mean, how many people on an MD-80/90 actually know they can evacuate through the tail?

If anything is to be done, locking bins seems sensible. Although another poster in the thread pertaining to the AA incident at ORD noted that this could just lead to passengers clogging the aisles trying to force the bins open in the event of an evacuation.
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mjoelnir
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Re: Chaotic Evacuations may Lead to Recertification

Sun Oct 30, 2016 11:34 pm

teriyaki wrote:
Yes. Because where do you draw the line? What about the jacket inside a bag? Inside a backpack? Inside your luggage?

The main priority should be to get all passengers off the plane in the minimum amount of time. No ifs ands or buts.


And kill them outside the airplane due to exposure, mission accomplished, You seem to be unaware that there are area in this world that are not sunny and warm. .
 
Newbiepilot
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Re: Chaotic Evacuations may Lead to Recertification

Sun Oct 30, 2016 11:44 pm

Centrally controlled Locking bins is not sensible.

First off what happens if there is structural damage resulting in overhead bins becoming an impediment to an evacuation? Every door or latch on an airplane can be opened at the mechanism except the flight deck door. It is not safe to have control of any locking mechanism far away from the unit itself. There would have to be an override, which if someone really wants to open a bin, will figure it out.

Second of all, if passengers try to pry bins open, it could slow down an evacuation even more. It would be bad for passengers to be standing in the aisles.

Third of all, there is safety equipment in some bins. A locking mechanism is going to be complicated.

Fourth of all, locked bins is going to add weight. A central system with individual motors would be heavy. Airlines would protest. This would also cause maintenance problems. Broken latches is a frequent cause of short flight delays.

My thoughts on addressing excessive luggage is weight limiting carry ons. While it won't stop people from carrying items, it will result in lighter bags that can get out of an exit.
 
TW870
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Re: Chaotic Evacuations may Lead to Recertification

Sun Oct 30, 2016 11:50 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
teriyaki wrote:
Yes. Because where do you draw the line? What about the jacket inside a bag? Inside a backpack? Inside your luggage?

The main priority should be to get all passengers off the plane in the minimum amount of time. No ifs ands or buts.


And kill them outside the airplane due to exposure, mission accomplished, You seem to be unaware that there are area in this world that are not sunny and warm. .


You can live way, way longer in cold exposure to -20F than you can inside of a burning airplane. If you are so far from buildings that you are worried about death after evacuation, the airport fire service is going to be a long way away, and the aircraft would look a lot worse very quickly than that AA 763 at ORD.

One thing I have been thinking about is an announcement (or part of the safety demo) to keep your passport on your person during takeoff and landing. One reason I think people panic about their bags is because they are afraid of losing their passports and visas on international flights. After these last few incidents I am going to start changing the way I do things and just sticking my passport in my jacket pocket for takeoff and landing.
 
KLDC10
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Re: Chaotic Evacuations may Lead to Recertification

Sun Oct 30, 2016 11:53 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
teriyaki wrote:
Yes. Because where do you draw the line? What about the jacket inside a bag? Inside a backpack? Inside your luggage?

The main priority should be to get all passengers off the plane in the minimum amount of time. No ifs ands or buts.


And kill them outside the airplane due to exposure, mission accomplished, You seem to be unaware that there are area in this world that are not sunny and warm. .


Just speaking personally here, I usually travel in a jacket. Usually, I will take the jacket off for the duration of the flight. However, at takeoff, and prior to landing, I wear the jacket and make sure that my passport, wallet and cellphone are stowed in the pockets. If I'm taking an international flight, I can't afford to find myself stranded in a foreign country without identification, money, or means of communication. Everything else can be left behind in the event of an evacuation, and stowing the important items in my jacket means that if the plane goes off the end of the runway, or some other incident requires an evacuation, I can just get up and get off without picking anything up.
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airliner371
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Re: Chaotic Evacuations may Lead to Recertification

Sun Oct 30, 2016 11:56 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
teriyaki wrote:
Yes. Because where do you draw the line? What about the jacket inside a bag? Inside a backpack? Inside your luggage?

The main priority should be to get all passengers off the plane in the minimum amount of time. No ifs ands or buts.


And kill them outside the airplane due to exposure, mission accomplished, You seem to be unaware that there are area in this world that are not sunny and warm. .

I'm sorry but if your plane is on fire, your first thought should not be, "let me grab a jacket," it should be, "get me the hell off this airplane."

The Delta crash at LaGuardia last year reminds me of a specific circumstance where people shouldn't have grabbed their coats as it significantly slowed down the evacuation process but they did anyway. Sorry, I live in New York, I've gone out in a T-shirt in winter weather, you aren't going to die from being out in snow without a T-shirt, at least not quickly, but you very well can die if a plane explodes while you're grabbing your jacket. End of story, it's not a debate, you are being irresponsible to every passenger behind you if you slow down the evacuation process because you may be a little uncomfortable in cold weather. Sorry, a crash or emergency of any kind is not supposed to be a comfortable experience.
 
smi0006
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Re: Chaotic Evacuations may Lead to Recertification

Sun Oct 30, 2016 11:56 pm

I think stricter controls are required for hand baggage size and weight. FAA and EASA should review allowances, and how carriers enforce these, they should then look at fining airlines for non-compliance.

It amazes me how much people take on the plane- 1bag at 7kg + a laptop/purse/manbag, seems reasonable and should be a quick grab and go if truly necessary. Carry on should be storage for your air time, not the duration of your trip.

I do wonder was the AA a precautionary disembarkation using slides, then upgraded to full evacuation? Videos showed the crew not being as forceful and vocal as I would have expected, from my training as an FA if you broke and arm so be it, better than burning to death- we were told to yell as loud as possible and push when people hesitated.
 
FGITD
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Re: Chaotic Evacuations may Lead to Recertification

Mon Oct 31, 2016 12:06 am

I'd estimate that if you're in an incident where the passengers and aircraft are in such a state that grabbing your jacket is even an option, fire rescue isn't far away.

And likewise, any incident where you might be exposed to the elements for a prolonged period is not one in which you'll have the option of going through your things
 
UALFAson
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Re: Chaotic Evacuations may Lead to Recertification

Mon Oct 31, 2016 12:08 am

TW870 wrote:
One reason I think people panic about their bags is because they are afraid of losing their passports and visas on international flights.


But it's also work and personal laptops, iPads, wallets, car keys, cell phones, business information...The average work briefcase or small carry on contains an incredible number of items that would be difficult to replace, and certainly in a timely manner.

I think part of it is also human nature. When do you ever leave a place, particularly a place of public transportation like an airplane, taxi, or bus, and leave all of your personal items behind you? Never. So in the chaos of an emergency, people resort to routine. And in that routine, the first thing you do is gather your carry on items and move toward an exit. As the son of a flight attendant who knows the rules and the reasons behind them, I can easily see myself abandoning my suitcase in the overhead bin in an evacuation--underwear and dress shirts can be easily replaced. But, rightly or wrongly, I bet I'd grab my briefcase from underneath the seat in front of me before heading to the door.
"We hope you've enjoyed flying with us as much as we've enjoyed taking you for a ride."
 
smokeybandit
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Re: Chaotic Evacuations may Lead to Recertification

Mon Oct 31, 2016 12:10 am

Heck with electronics. What about medication?
 
mark2fly1034
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Re: Chaotic Evacuations may Lead to Recertification

Mon Oct 31, 2016 12:11 am

I also keep important stuff on me for takeoff and landing, but one thing I have not seen is charging cable it was not something I had thought of till I was on a DL 747 last summer out of AMS and we shut down an engine right after takeoff and was going to have to come back to the airport and land. If I have to evacuate off an airplane how long will it be before I see my bag? A day or more? I would like to be able to keep my phone charged just in case I cant get access to a store to buy one if needed.
 
KLDC10
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Re: Chaotic Evacuations may Lead to Recertification

Mon Oct 31, 2016 12:15 am

UALFAson wrote:
TW870 wrote:
One reason I think people panic about their bags is because they are afraid of losing their passports and visas on international flights.


But it's also work and personal laptops, iPads, wallets, car keys, cell phones, business information...The average work briefcase or small carry on contains an incredible number of items that would be difficult to replace, and certainly in a timely manner.

I think part of it is also human nature. When do you ever leave a place, particularly a place of public transportation like an airplane, taxi, or bus, and leave all of your personal items behind you? Never. So in the chaos of an emergency, people resort to routine. And in that routine, the first thing you do is gather your carry on items and move toward an exit. As the son of a flight attendant who knows the rules and the reasons behind them, I can easily see myself abandoning my suitcase in the overhead bin in an evacuation--underwear and dress shirts can be easily replaced. But, rightly or wrongly, I bet I'd grab my briefcase from underneath the seat in front of me before heading to the door.


This is a very good point. It would be quite easy to pick up a briefcase from under the seat in front of you during an evacuation. It seems like most trouble stems from people clogging the aisles to retrieve items from the overhead bins. However, any hand held items, no matter how small, could conceivably cause problems going down the slides.
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MSPSXMFLIER
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Re: Chaotic Evacuations may Lead to Recertification

Mon Oct 31, 2016 12:21 am

KLDC10 wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
teriyaki wrote:
Yes. Because where do you draw the line? What about the jacket inside a bag? Inside a backpack? Inside your luggage?

The main priority should be to get all passengers off the plane in the minimum amount of time. No ifs ands or buts.


And kill them outside the airplane due to exposure, mission accomplished, You seem to be unaware that there are area in this world that are not sunny and warm. .


Just speaking personally here, I usually travel in a jacket. Usually, I will take the jacket off for the duration of the flight. However, at takeoff, and prior to landing, I wear the jacket and make sure that my passport, wallet and cellphone are stowed in the pockets. If I'm taking an international flight, I can't afford to find myself stranded in a foreign country without identification, money, or means of communication. Everything else can be left behind in the event of an evacuation, and stowing the important items in my jacket means that if the plane goes off the end of the runway, or some other incident requires an evacuation, I can just get up and get off without picking anything up.



I do exactly the same as you, I wear a light jacket and in the pockets are kept my passport, boarding pass and cell phone. If I were in a situation where I had to quickly evacuate an aircraft which went up in flames and I had to leave behind an iPod, iPad or camera inside of my backpack, well, so be it. It's only stuff and stuff can be replaced.
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Chaotic Evacuations may Lead to Recertification

Mon Oct 31, 2016 12:21 am

TW870 wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
teriyaki wrote:
Yes. Because where do you draw the line? What about the jacket inside a bag? Inside a backpack? Inside your luggage?

The main priority should be to get all passengers off the plane in the minimum amount of time. No ifs ands or buts.


And kill them outside the airplane due to exposure, mission accomplished, You seem to be unaware that there are area in this world that are not sunny and warm. .


You can live way, way longer in cold exposure to -20F than you can inside of a burning airplane. If you are so far from buildings that you are worried about death after evacuation, the airport fire service is going to be a long way away, and the aircraft would look a lot worse very quickly than that AA 763 at ORD.

One thing I have been thinking about is an announcement (or part of the safety demo) to keep your passport on your person during takeoff and landing. One reason I think people panic about their bags is because they are afraid of losing their passports and visas on international flights. After these last few incidents I am going to start changing the way I do things and just sticking my passport in my jacket pocket for takeoff and landing.


Because people have died from exposure in connection with evacuations. People here seem never to have been outside in a blizzard or just only in really bad weather, were you can die a few meters from a building. The time frame in a storm and rain around 0°C can be as short as 2 to 5 minutes for children to die of exposure.

If there are problems with cabin luggage, ban it in the cabin. Allow small bags for the electronic equipment. There is no reason for the Americans to have everything and the kitchen sink in the cabin when travelling on an airplane and than talking about to lock away my warm clothing in an emergency. About as crazy a logic as I have encountered.
.
 
IPFreely
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Re: Chaotic Evacuations may Lead to Recertification

Mon Oct 31, 2016 12:26 am

tullamarine wrote:
Recent evacuations have taken up to 270 seconds or 3 times the legislated maximum, principally because passengers have been trying to retireve cabin baggage.


This isn't a fact, it's the author's speculation. And he offers no evidence to back up his statement.
 
rbavfan
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Re: Chaotic Evacuations may Lead to Recertification

Mon Oct 31, 2016 12:38 am

UALFAson wrote:
TW870 wrote:
One reason I think people panic about their bags is because they are afraid of losing their passports and visas on international flights.


But it's also work and personal laptops, iPads, wallets, car keys, cell phones, business information...The average work briefcase or small carry on contains an incredible number of items that would be difficult to replace, and certainly in a timely manner.

I think part of it is also human nature. When do you ever leave a place, particularly a place of public transportation like an airplane, taxi, or bus, and leave all of your personal items behind you? Never. So in the chaos of an emergency, people resort to routine. And in that routine, the first thing you do is gather your carry on items and move toward an exit. As the son of a flight attendant who knows the rules and the reasons behind them, I can easily see myself abandoning my suitcase in the overhead bin in an evacuation--underwear and dress shirts can be easily replaced. But, rightly or wrongly, I bet I'd grab my briefcase from underneath the seat in front of me before heading to the door.



Sorry but as a burn victim I can tell you. NOTHING in your carry on is more important that not burning to death. In terms of important files for work. I keep a USB fob on my keychain (now 64GB) with all my critcal data backed up to it. Already in pocket set to go. Passport, cell and wallet in pocket. If it's a blizzard Emergency crews will get to you before you freeze to death at an airport. We all need to quit being winey babies that have to have everything set for comfort. In an emergency I don't give a damn in I'm to cold or too hot due to weather. I give a damn that I did not KILL someone by trapping them on the plane because I was so self important that I had to get my F'n carry on! Having dealt with survivors remorse I can tell you replacing that bag is better than years of hating yourself. Think about knowing a child or adult burnt to death because I grabbed this thing I could replace.

So how about this folks. If you take your carry on when evacuating its a $10000.00 fine that goes to fund emergency services. This being announced during the emergency notifications, that most all ignore the crew doing before take off. No claiming I did not hear it so I should not pay the fine. But if you have a carry on and someone died in the crash, you get charged with Involuntary manslaughter. After all thats what you have done!
Last edited by rbavfan on Mon Oct 31, 2016 12:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
rbavfan
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Re: Chaotic Evacuations may Lead to Recertification

Mon Oct 31, 2016 12:45 am

mark2fly1034 wrote:
I also keep important stuff on me for takeoff and landing, but one thing I have not seen is charging cable it was not something I had thought of till I was on a DL 747 last summer out of AMS and we shut down an engine right after takeoff and was going to have to come back to the airport and land. If I have to evacuate off an airplane how long will it be before I see my bag? A day or more? I would like to be able to keep my phone charged just in case I cant get access to a store to buy one if needed.



Be serious even little corner markets sell Phone charging cables these days. Also if it's "days" there will be someone that will let you charge off theirs.
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Chaotic Evacuations may Lead to Recertification

Mon Oct 31, 2016 12:49 am

rbavfan wrote:
UALFAson wrote:
TW870 wrote:
One reason I think people panic about their bags is because they are afraid of losing their passports and visas on international flights.


But it's also work and personal laptops, iPads, wallets, car keys, cell phones, business information...The average work briefcase or small carry on contains an incredible number of items that would be difficult to replace, and certainly in a timely manner.

I think part of it is also human nature. When do you ever leave a place, particularly a place of public transportation like an airplane, taxi, or bus, and leave all of your personal items behind you? Never. So in the chaos of an emergency, people resort to routine. And in that routine, the first thing you do is gather your carry on items and move toward an exit. As the son of a flight attendant who knows the rules and the reasons behind them, I can easily see myself abandoning my suitcase in the overhead bin in an evacuation--underwear and dress shirts can be easily replaced. But, rightly or wrongly, I bet I'd grab my briefcase from underneath the seat in front of me before heading to the door.



Sorry but as a burn victim I can tell you. NOTHING in your carry on is more important that not burning to death. In terms of important files for work. I keep a USB fob on my keychain (now 64GB) with all my critcal data backed up to it. Already in pocket set to go. Passport, cell and wallet in pocket. If it's a blizzard Emergency crews will get to you before you freeze to death at an airport. We all need to quit being winey babies that have to have everything set for comfort. In an emergency I don't give a damn in I'm to cold or too hot due to weather. I give a damn that I did not KILL someone by trapping them on the plane because I was so self important that I had to get my F'n carry on! Having dealt with survivors remorse I can tell you replacing that bag is better than years of hating yourself. Think about knowing a child or adult burnt to death because I grabbed this thing I could replace.

So how about this folks. If you take your carry on when evacuating its a $10000.00 fine that goes to fund emergency services. This being announced during the emergency notifications, most all ignore the crew doing during before take off. No I did not hear it so I should not pay the fine. But if you have a carry on and someone died in the crash, you get charged with Involuntary manslaughter. After all thats what you have done!


What a load of rubbish. Sorry that you are a burn victim. People die from exposure. People die from exposure in evacuations. People die from exposure in emergencies. If there is a blizzard emergency crews will not even find you. Evacuating into bad weather without proper clothing, while it is right above you, is just plain crazy.
If cabin luggage is a problem ban it, simple.
 
rbavfan
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Re: Chaotic Evacuations may Lead to Recertification

Mon Oct 31, 2016 12:53 am

IPFreely wrote:
tullamarine wrote:
Recent evacuations have taken up to 270 seconds or 3 times the legislated maximum, principally because passengers have been trying to retireve cabin baggage.


This isn't a fact, it's the author's speculation. And he offers no evidence to back up his statement.


Watch the evacuations on youtube and note the time bar that shows how long it takes. Most i've seen don't start from the beginning & still show people getting off the plane well past 90 seconds.
 
IPFreely
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Re: Chaotic Evacuations may Lead to Recertification

Mon Oct 31, 2016 12:57 am

rbavfan wrote:
Watch the evacuations on youtube and note the time bar that shows how long it takes. Most i've seen don't start from the beginning & still show people getting off the plane well past 90 seconds.


Where does it show any delays because someone is retrieving their luggage, or someone having to wait because someone else is retrieving their luggage?
 
2175301
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Re: Chaotic Evacuations may Lead to Recertification

Mon Oct 31, 2016 1:04 am

Several Items: I know of no data that shows that that the recent modern evacuations are actually slower than the evacuations 20 or 30 years ago. The 90 second standard is in the books; but, it was set arbitrarily.

I concede there is a problem with personal luggage in the cabin; and would like to see it restricted to one small bag (the older sized mid 90's roller-on's not the modern larger ones), + Purse/Briefcase which I think would solve all problems.

In my case my "carry-on" is full of medical equipment supplies; and some can be critical depending on the situation. I just cannot immediately replace these (it would take several days - even in a large city - After I got copies of the existing prescriptions or new prescriptions which could take days in itself, and ignores cost).

Should I be involved in an Aircraft incident I will assess the situation. If time is critical to safety (obvious major fire or sinking) I will leave the bag, if not I will take it with. I am not concerned with my ordinary luggage... That can all be substituted or replaced on a short notice.

Have a great day,
 
rbavfan
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Re: Chaotic Evacuations may Lead to Recertification

Mon Oct 31, 2016 1:13 am

mjoelnir wrote:
rbavfan wrote:
UALFAson wrote:

But it's also work and personal laptops, iPads, wallets, car keys, cell phones, business information...The average work briefcase or small carry on contains an incredible number of items that would be difficult to replace, and certainly in a timely manner.

I think part of it is also human nature. When do you ever leave a place, particularly a place of public transportation like an airplane, taxi, or bus, and leave all of your personal items behind you? Never. So in the chaos of an emergency, people resort to routine. And in that routine, the first thing you do is gather your carry on items and move toward an exit. As the son of a flight attendant who knows the rules and the reasons behind them, I can easily see myself abandoning my suitcase in the overhead bin in an evacuation--underwear and dress shirts can be easily replaced. But, rightly or wrongly, I bet I'd grab my briefcase from underneath the seat in front of me before heading to the door.



Sorry but as a burn victim I can tell you. NOTHING in your carry on is more important that not burning to death. In terms of important files for work. I keep a USB fob on my keychain (now 64GB) with all my critcal data backed up to it. Already in pocket set to go. Passport, cell and wallet in pocket. If it's a blizzard Emergency crews will get to you before you freeze to death at an airport. We all need to quit being winey babies that have to have everything set for comfort. In an emergency I don't give a damn in I'm to cold or too hot due to weather. I give a damn that I did not KILL someone by trapping them on the plane because I was so self important that I had to get my F'n carry on! Having dealt with survivors remorse I can tell you replacing that bag is better than years of hating yourself. Think about knowing a child or adult burnt to death because I grabbed this thing I could replace.

So how about this folks. If you take your carry on when evacuating its a $10000.00 fine that goes to fund emergency services. This being announced during the emergency notifications, most all ignore the crew doing during before take off. No I did not hear it so I should not pay the fine. But if you have a carry on and someone died in the crash, you get charged with Involuntary manslaughter. After all thats what you have done!


What a load of rubbish. Sorry that you are a burn victim. People die from exposure. People die from exposure in evacuations. People die from exposure in emergencies. If there is a blizzard emergency crews will not even find you. Evacuating into bad weather without proper clothing, while it is right above you, is just plain crazy.
If cabin luggage is a problem ban it, simple.


Not sorry I was a burn vicim. Met more fantastic caring people growing up in the hospital than I can count.

This type of evacuation on airport property with emergency crews around even in a blizzard people tend to congregate around each other. Its human nature in an emergency. If it's that bad a blizzard emergency vehicles could run over you before you freeze to death. Were not talking a plane breaking up and tossing a person well clear of where they are looking. The emergency crews are trained and have whats needed to protect someone from exposure if needed. Taking time to get your jacket when the plane is on fire could be the seconds difference in someone dying, but at least your warm.

When Air Canada DC-9 caught fire and made an emergency landing in Cincinnati years back. There was a picture of the FA jumping onto the slide when she saw the backdraft coming. She was surrounded by explosive flame as she went down the slide. So your getting your jacket could have been you, her or someone else dying. So it's not rubbish, it's unfortunate facts of what can happen in an emergency. From your post I would assume you have never been in an emergency, worked a fire crew or been a hospital employee and seen any of this. Rubbish that.
 
rbavfan
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Re: Chaotic Evacuations may Lead to Recertification

Mon Oct 31, 2016 1:14 am

IPFreely wrote:
rbavfan wrote:
Watch the evacuations on youtube and note the time bar that shows how long it takes. Most i've seen don't start from the beginning & still show people getting off the plane well past 90 seconds.


Where does it show any delays because someone is retrieving their luggage, or someone having to wait because someone else is retrieving their luggage?


Seriously. You saying getting your bag out of the bin and blocking evacuation while doing it will not slow down the evacuation. Hopefully your not ahead of me in an emergency.
 
ltbewr
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Re: Chaotic Evacuations may Lead to Recertification

Mon Oct 31, 2016 1:15 am

Perhaps evacuation drill trials should be done considering the modern reality of humans who want to take their overhead baggage. Do a number of tests with 100% of seats occupied, that 70%+ in a semi-random pattern get their overhead baggage, video and sound recordings inside and outside the a/c, do them in locations in different weather conditions including very cold weather and only only half of exits available. Also include where testers are persons of size, have babies, small children, elderly persons, physically handicapped persons and their special needs may mean getting stuff stored overhead and smaller carry-ons, maybe throw in someone with a valuable musical instrument. Do a number of studies applying potential changes as suggested above by others and then consider applications.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Chaotic Evacuations may Lead to Recertification

Mon Oct 31, 2016 1:21 am

tullamarine wrote:
    Recertification - Not attractive given it could massively reduce the passenger capacity of just about all aircraft types as well as triggering the retirement of grandfathering clauses for some planes particularly 737s.
    Ban all cabin baggage except small purse. Probably reasonable response but would severely impact frequent business travellers etc plus raise the issue of what happens with laptops where they must not be in hold luggage
    Lock all overhead bins for take-off and landing. This is the best response as it overcomes the issue of people retrieving bags in emergencies as well as stopping pax standing up and opening lockers when aircraft are still taxiing to the gate


I don't believe the FAA will enforce any of these solutions. As evidenced by recommending child seats but not mandating them, the FAA is usually pragmatic.
 
IPFreely
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Re: Chaotic Evacuations may Lead to Recertification

Mon Oct 31, 2016 1:23 am

IPFreely wrote:
Where does it show any delays because someone is retrieving their luggage, or someone having to wait because someone else is retrieving their luggage?


rbavfan wrote:
Seriously. You saying getting your bag out of the bin and blocking evacuation while doing it will not slow down the evacuation. Hopefully your not ahead of me in an emergency.


So the video doesn't show any evidence of a delay because people are retrieving their luggage? Then why reference the video?
 
N415XJ
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Re: Chaotic Evacuations may Lead to Recertification

Mon Oct 31, 2016 1:26 am

I think that locking the bins, while an imperfect solution, makes the most sense. If it was loudly and clearly announced on placards and in preflight safety videos, and if the word got out through the news and social media after locks were implimented, it would become part of the public's expectation of what to do on a plane, such as 'no smoking'/'fasten seatbelts'/phones to airplane mode'. Also, if could solve the smaller problem of people sometimes jumping up to get their luggage as soon as the plane lands



Newbiepilot wrote:

First off what happens if there is structural damage resulting in overhead bins becoming an impediment to an evacuation? Every door or latch on an airplane can be opened at the mechanism except the flight deck door. It is not safe to have control of any locking mechanism far away from the unit itself. There would have to be an override, which if someone really wants to open a bin, will figure it out.


Huh? You mean if the bins as a unit collapse, blocking the exit? Can't they do that already? Maybe I just don't understand you but I don't see this impeding people's exit in any situation.

Second of all, if passengers try to pry bins open, it could slow down an evacuation even more. It would be bad for passengers to be standing in the aisles.


That might be a concern, but if there's a placard that says the bin is locked, and if passengers know that the bins will locked, I can't see why they'd try to pry them open anyway. Also, after a few seconds of prying I'd imagine that they'd give in to the pushing and yelling of passengers behind them. People yell and push now, but it's easier to push someone along if they aren't in the process of taking down a piece of luggage.

Third of all, there is safety equipment in some bins. A locking mechanism is going to be complicated.


I thought that safety equipment is usually in smaller bins close to F/A stations. Even if the equipment is usually put in normal luggage bin, it should be fairly easy to ad dividers and new doors to separate one existing large bin into two- one for luggage and a smaller safety equipment bin.

Fourth of all, locked bins is going to add weight. A central system with individual motors would be heavy. Airlines would protest. This would also cause maintenance problems. Broken latches is a frequent cause of short flight delays.


This is the most important concern. However, with modern composites and electronics it should be easy to make a relatively light system of individual latches wirelessly connected to a central locking panel.[/quote]

Barring this solution, I wonder if evacuation trials should be adjusted to assume that there will be people who block the aisles, hesitate at the doors, or do not move as fast. Maybe they can use data from actual crashes to find out somehow how many people on average choose to collect bags, and then direct a certain number of volunteers to hesitate in the aisles.
 
rbavfan
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Re: Chaotic Evacuations may Lead to Recertification

Mon Oct 31, 2016 1:28 am

2175301 wrote:
Several Items: I know of no data that shows that that the recent modern evacuations are actually slower than the evacuations 20 or 30 years ago. The 90 second standard is in the books; but, it was set arbitrarily.

I concede there is a problem with personal luggage in the cabin; and would like to see it restricted to one small bag (the older sized mid 90's roller-on's not the modern larger ones), + Purse/Briefcase which I think would solve all problems.

In my case my "carry-on" is full of medical equipment supplies; and some can be critical depending on the situation. I just cannot immediately replace these (it would take several days - even in a large city - After I got copies of the existing prescriptions or new prescriptions which could take days in itself, and ignores cost).

Should I be involved in an Aircraft incident I will assess the situation. If time is critical to safety (obvious major fire or sinking) I will leave the bag, if not I will take it with. I am not concerned with my ordinary luggage... That can all be substituted or replaced on a short notice.

Have a great day,


I have 6 heart meds and a tens unit. I know of no major city that there is not a hospital or dr. office I can turn to if my pills burn with the plane. Yes it can cost, but cheaper than a life. My friend has to take insulin and keeps a packet with emergency supplies in her pocket as well as travel docs when she fly's. To many people,including myself , tend to get into a "I have to have all this or else" attitude. We live in a world where we have fast access to needed medical supplies through most of the world. There is a difference between absolute need to grab this and I really could go replace it with a Doctor. Same as OMG I have to have my laptop. That presentation will be the difference between going out of business. I worked so hard on it. Is that really worth dying for? Be honest and ask yourself should I risk dying so I'm not inconvenienced by having to go to a medical facility to refill or replace stuff? If you are honest with yourself you will see it's not that bad a choice. After all as you noted yourself (major fire or sinking.) This plane was on fire to the extent that the wing melted to the ground! If you in that bad a shpe you can check into a hospital and they can help you till your replacement devices arrive, thats what they are there for.
 
yak42
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Re: Chaotic Evacuations may Lead to Recertification

Mon Oct 31, 2016 1:53 am

Many people on here seem to think that you can simply run out into arctic conditions like -40C and below in an emergency without a thick winter coat. No you can't. That's going to kill you as sure as drinking bleach.
Also locking overhead bins would be massively expensive requiring a huge amount of work on retrofitting existing aircraft cabins. All with uncertain implications for the evacuation.
Obese, disabled and elderly people also impede evacuations. Are you going to ban them/strap them into special ejector seats?
 
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XLA2008
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Re: Chaotic Evacuations may Lead to Recertification

Mon Oct 31, 2016 1:56 am

mjoelnir wrote:
I find this idea of locking the overhead bins pretty strange. If it would be luggage storage only, but I usually store my winter coat there during the flight. Do you want to throw me off the plane in a storm and -20°C without my winter coat?


Unless you want to be responsible for the death of other people because you were blocking the aisle preventing others from passing and getting out of the cabin so you can have your winter coat! Suck it up, a winter coat or your life?? At any given major airport you will not be on the tarmac for long before emergancy services assist! No excuse! Or perhaps you should put your winter coat on during take off and landing! That way you have it to hand! No excuse for you to prevent or stall an evacuation!
Last edited by XLA2008 on Mon Oct 31, 2016 2:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
“For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and there you will long to return.“
 
thegoldenargosy
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Re: Chaotic Evacuations may Lead to Recertification

Mon Oct 31, 2016 1:58 am

Nothing will change until there's a survivable crash where most of the people die. The airline will buy you a new MacBook if yours goes up in flames onboard, its not worth your life.
 
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XLA2008
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Re: Chaotic Evacuations may Lead to Recertification

Mon Oct 31, 2016 2:02 am

thegoldenargosy wrote:
Nothing will change until there's a survivable crash where most of the people die. The airline will buy you a new MacBook if yours goes up in flames onboard, its not worth your life.


Honestly the best policy is to say... those who want to get off right this second, get up and get out, those of you who wish to get your hand baggage and rummage around in the overhead lockers please remain seated until the rest of us are out, oh and good luck with that!
“For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and there you will long to return.“
 
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XLA2008
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Re: Chaotic Evacuations may Lead to Recertification

Mon Oct 31, 2016 2:05 am

yak42 wrote:
Many people on here seem to think that you can simply run out into arctic conditions like -40C and below in an emergency without a thick winter coat. No you can't. That's going to kill you as sure as drinking bleach.
Also locking overhead bins would be massively expensive requiring a huge amount of work on retrofitting existing aircraft cabins. All with uncertain implications for the evacuation.
Obese, disabled and elderly people also impede evacuations. Are you going to ban them/strap them into special ejector seats?


Hmmm run out into arctic conditions... or stay behind and go up in flames with the aircraft!!

For goodness sake if you are so concerned about arctic conditions keep your bloody coat on until your airborne, and put the bloody thing back on again before landing, then you have no problems! Otherwise get your ass up and get the hell out and stop being a selfish inconsiderate asshole that's putting other innocent people and children at risk so you can rummage for your north face winter coat!!!!

In the cold you huddle together, conserve body warmth, you realize crew are trained in survival for all conditions, desert, arctic, tropical island...
“For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and there you will long to return.“
 
TW870
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Re: Chaotic Evacuations may Lead to Recertification

Mon Oct 31, 2016 2:28 am

Has there ever been a case in any time period on any continent or in any context of a passenger freezing to death after successfully evacuating from a commercial aircraft? I am from Minneapolis - not exactly a tropical town - and I am having trouble believing this thread. I fully believe people might have gotten frost bite after jumping down the slide without their shoes on. But I am asking if there has ever been a case anywhere where the loss of life total in an airline incident or accident has been impacted by hypothermia after evacuation.
 
b6a322
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Re: Chaotic Evacuations may Lead to Recertification

Mon Oct 31, 2016 2:36 am

Lots of people talking about the jacket and -20 degree weather. Emergency responses to large incidents specifically include "rehab" trucks which are outfitted with blankets, warming mechanisms, etc.
Also, the airport doesn't want you standing out there on the airfield as much as you don't want to be there. They'll get you a bus pretty quickly. We can replace a carry on, we can replace a jacket, but we cannot replace YOU. Leave it and get out.
The content I post are my own thoughts, nothing more. :)
 
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kmz
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Re: Chaotic Evacuations may Lead to Recertification

Mon Oct 31, 2016 2:42 am

So how many people did die or were injured because of people taking their belongings along? Or how many people died or were injured because evacuating took more than 90 seconds?

Maybe punishing people after they leave the aircraft with their belongings is enough for the time being.
 
D L X
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Re: Chaotic Evacuations may Lead to Recertification

Mon Oct 31, 2016 2:46 am

This is the thread where we make up ridiculous perils and pretend like they're the equivalent to being cooked and asphyxiated in a burning airliner.

mjoelnir wrote:
Because people have died from exposure in connection with evacuations.


Way more people have died from not evacuating in time than evacuating then succumbing to elements.

(Can you even name one instance where a passenger got off the plane and succumbed to the cold?)

mjoelnir wrote:
People here seem never to have been outside in a blizzard or just only in really bad weather, were you can die a few meters from a building. The time frame in a storm and rain around 0°C can be as short as 2 to 5 minutes for children to die of exposure.

RIdiculous.

1) Yes, I would MUCH rather be out in a blizzard than on a burning airplane.
2) How many planes take off during a blizzard? How many planes land in a blizzard? REmember, we're talking about locking the bins during takeoff and landing. (And if you're that ridiculously concerned about it, don't arm the locks when you're taking off in a blizzard. problem solved.)
3) Have you ever been near a large structural fire? It's hot. (Duh!) You're standing next to a burning airliner radiating ridiculous heat. YOU. ARE. NOT. GOING. TO. FREEZE.
(And if you're that afraid of freezing, be my guest and stay on the plane. Just don't be in my way.)

Man alive.
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Chaotic Evacuations may Lead to Recertification

Mon Oct 31, 2016 2:50 am

b6a322 wrote:
Lots of people talking about the jacket and -20 degree weather. Emergency responses to large incidents specifically include "rehab" trucks which are outfitted with blankets, warming mechanisms, etc.
Also, the airport doesn't want you standing out there on the airfield as much as you don't want to be there. They'll get you a bus pretty quickly. We can replace a carry on, we can replace a jacket, but we cannot replace YOU. Leave it and get out.


Were do this "rehap trucks" exists? I have seen the fire fighting equipment on airports, I have seen ambulances at airports. I have never seen any equipment to move people away from an accident apart from normal busses or airport busses, unable to move but under good conditions and never off road, were are the rehab trucks hidden?
I have seen videos from accidents and never seen people movers but people walking.

On some airlines flying smaller frames in the northern areas, you have to be in your winter clothes on take off and landing. It is explained with dying from exposure if something happens and you have to evacuate.
 
YZF101
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Re: Chaotic Evacuations may Lead to Recertification

Mon Oct 31, 2016 2:51 am

There are some interesting ideas here - especially having evac drills done with various inpediments thrown into the mix...don't they already do this to some extent? What I can't seem to get over is what appears to be some self-rightious people preaching about things. Make your points - all are valid - then leave it alone.

Probably the best course of action would be to lift fees on baggage to reflect the kitchen sinks that are currently residing in the cabin.
 
DualQual
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Re: Chaotic Evacuations may Lead to Recertification

Mon Oct 31, 2016 2:59 am

If it's a blizzard you're probably in the terminal bitching about being stuck in the terminal and not going anywhere on an airplane.

If you're enough of an inconsiderate ass to not get off a burning plane you better hope I'm not behind you trying to get out while you decide to fumble for whatever replaceable piece of luggage you need. I'm either busting your nose or shoving you out of the way. I'm not dying of smoke inhalation because of you.
There's no known cure for stupid
 
D L X
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Re: Chaotic Evacuations may Lead to Recertification

Mon Oct 31, 2016 3:00 am

Now that I'm done ranting...

I was on N345AN just a couple weeks ago. It's amazing to me to believe that it would end like this, and that I was what, 9 cycles away from being in that exact situation myself. How long did this evac take? Was it actually 270 seconds? 270 seconds caused by people getting their bags instead of getting off the plane? Insane.

We set the evac time at 90 seconds for a reason. Not because everyone dies at 91 seconds, but because we were able to determine that the likelihood of survival plummets after 90 seconds. Both the AA plane and the EK plane now took over 90 seconds. (Though remarkably, the AF A340 in YYZ got everyone off in 90 seconds while sitting in a ravine.) If human behavior is causing evacuations to be unachievable in 90 seconds, you either have to change the time required to evacuate, or change the behavior. We know that changing the time will likely result in deaths, so that's a non-starter. Changing behavior pulls people back into the situation that we've already modeled. It is the clear class of solutions.

I'm all in favor of locking the bins. But an alternative could be as simple as having the loudspeaker blare "leave your bags" along with "evacuate."
 
yak42
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Re: Chaotic Evacuations may Lead to Recertification

Mon Oct 31, 2016 3:00 am

XLA2008 wrote:
yak42 wrote:
Many people on here seem to think that you can simply run out into arctic conditions like -40C and below in an emergency without a thick winter coat. No you can't. That's going to kill you as sure as drinking bleach.
Also locking overhead bins would be massively expensive requiring a huge amount of work on retrofitting existing aircraft cabins. All with uncertain implications for the evacuation.
Obese, disabled and elderly people also impede evacuations. Are you going to ban them/strap them into special ejector seats?


Hmmm run out into arctic conditions... or stay behind and go up in flames with the aircraft!!

For goodness sake if you are so concerned about arctic conditions keep your bloody coat on until your airborne, and put the bloody thing back on again before landing, then you have no problems! Otherwise get your ass up and get the hell out and stop being a selfish inconsiderate asshole that's putting other innocent people and children at risk so you can rummage for your north face winter coat!!!!

In the cold you huddle together, conserve body warmth, you realize crew are trained in survival for all conditions, desert, arctic, tropical island...

You may as well sit down and wait to choke and be consumed by flames as run out into extreme conditions without appropriate clothing. Hypothermia and death will take a matter of minutes out on an exposed runway in some conditions and well before the passengers can be taken into a warm terminal. I don't think having people wear coats for take off and landing is workable.

You can't control what passengers are going to do in an evacuation. They are in the end responsible for their own actions and will do as they will in that situation. All the airline and regulatory authorities can do is provide as much opportunity and directions to escape the aircraft as is reasonable. No amount of raging at people for taking their hand luggage will stop them.
 
b6a322
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Re: Chaotic Evacuations may Lead to Recertification

Mon Oct 31, 2016 3:08 am

mjoelnir wrote:
Were do this "rehap trucks" exists?

Fire departments deploy them. They respond to the airport or any large scale incident.

mjoelnir wrote:
apart from normal busses or airport busses,

Sorry bud, you answered your own question. What do buses have? Heat.

mjoelnir wrote:
On some airlines flying smaller frames in the northern areas, you have to be in your winter clothes on take off and landing. It is explained with dying from exposure if something happens and you have to evacuate.

This may be - but it is for a scenario if you crash off-airport in a hard to reach area.

Also - people if you're flying from subzero arctic wasteland y'all aren't butt naked under your heavy jackets...Your sweater will keep you warm for quite a bit. And as others have previously said --- fires burn HOT.

And let me just also add - smoke from fire can overcome a person in as little as 10-15 seconds. When you are overcome with smoke inhalation, you pass out. 10-15 seconds. I'll take my chances outside, thanks.
The content I post are my own thoughts, nothing more. :)
 
D L X
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Re: Chaotic Evacuations may Lead to Recertification

Mon Oct 31, 2016 3:10 am

yak42 wrote:
You may as well sit down and wait to choke and be consumed by flames as run out into extreme conditions without appropriate clothing. Hypothermia and death will take a matter of minutes out on an exposed runway in some conditions and well before the passengers can be taken into a warm terminal. I don't think having people wear coats for take off and landing is workable.


A matter of minutes, huh?

There was a Continental DC-10 that crashed on takeoff many years ago. The plane was destroyed. All but 2 passengers survived. The 2 that died were killed instantly when they were INCINERATED going out an exit slide that led into the fire. Minutes are longer than instants.



Freezing to death in the elements. If only there were a fire nearby for warmth. . .

Seriously, "freezing to death" has to be the absolute lamest reason imaginable to not block access to overhead bins in an evac.
Last edited by D L X on Mon Oct 31, 2016 3:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
smi0006
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Re: Chaotic Evacuations may Lead to Recertification

Mon Oct 31, 2016 3:20 am

As another thought- and perhaps some other airline crew can elaborate, maybe the crew commands need to be revised?

At my airline commands were -'EVACUATE, EVACUATE, EVACUATE - LEAVE EVERYTHING BEHIND, LEAVE EVERYTHING BEHIND, EVACUATE, EVACUATE, EVACUATE'

Where as the EK and AA recordings, crew seem to be commanding - 'JUMP & SLIDE, JUMP & SLIDE'

I may have missed some of their commands, just a thought, people can figure out how to get down the slide, but may need a prompt to leave their baggage as not everyone will realise how serious the danger is. It certainly wasn't snowing in Dubai so no one needed a coat.
 
flyDTW1992
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Re: Chaotic Evacuations may Lead to Recertification

Mon Oct 31, 2016 3:25 am

I've worked deicing in sub-zero conditions in open-bucket trucks. I've been around a major northern US airport through some of the coldest winters on record. If the conditions are bad enough to cause death from exposure, the airport isn't operating. We can't deice, we can't fuel, and we can't load/unload aircraft in conditions like that.

If you're flying into a winter storm wearing shorts and a t-shirt, that's on you for not being prepared. There are a number of possible emergencies and contingencies where you may have to be outdoors due to abnormal circumstances. The plane doesn't have to burst into flames or crash.

That said, I personally would much rather take my chances outside a burning plane than in, even if I don't have a heavy jacket on. Likely worst case scenario is a 3 or 4 minute wait for ambulances or first responders with blankets and so forth. Any respectable ARFF department in cold climates will be prepared for such a scenario, with blankets included in their mass-casualty equipment. At DTW, for example, three to four all-wheel-drive ambulances are stationed on the airfield, each of which could take in a dozen cold passengers if the situation demanded it. They'd be on scene in a matter of moments, and if a plane were down or on fire, dozens more would follow shortly. Airport Authority busses could quickly be on scene as well.

Bottom line, I'd wager that you're far better off getting out of the plane ASAP than stopping to retrieve a jacket from an overhead bin.
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