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garpd
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Re: Chaotic Evacuations may Lead to Recertification

Mon Oct 31, 2016 5:45 pm

UAL777UK wrote:
I am absolutely staggered by people who think its acceptable to grab your bag, coat etc whilst the aircraft is on fire, hindering the evacuation process. Having met passengers and flight crew involved in the 1985 British Airtours fire at Manchester and hearing their stories, I can tell you right now, if you are ever in front of me and I need to get out of a plane in an emergency I will come through you like a pin ball. No excuses for your arrogance. All your sundry items can be replaced....We cannot!


Then of course, there is that silly cow from that flight that sparked off the panic by getting up from her seat and rushing forward screaming to get off when the plane had not stopped. This incited a full on panic that attributed to the number of deaths because the other passengers rushed the exits and caused a crush.
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Newbiepilot
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Re: Chaotic Evacuations may Lead to Recertification

Mon Oct 31, 2016 6:16 pm

DLX, where do you get your information regarding cabin door and jetway failures in comparison to overhead bin latches? Overhead bin latches and hinges fail all the time due to people overloading them. A lock is going to have some type of rigging. A door that is ajar but closed may not lock. With over 100 bins on some of the larger planes, the chance of one of them not locking is quite significant. As with anything on an airplane, the cabin door cannot close and plane push back if there is an open maintenance item. A mechanic can simply defer a lock, but if it fails right at departure time, you will get a delay getting the mechanic inside the plane and doing the paperwork. Airlines are going to protest this.

garpd wrote:
FGITD wrote:
What if the system breaks? People standing around, waiting while the mechanic troubleshoots.

I think it's a good idea that definitely has it's merits, but it's true that it would affect turnaround times. Every aspect of a minimum turn is taken into account, and adding any additional steps adds time, possibly leading to delays. And depending on aircraft rotation, it can impact certain routes for much longer than most would think


In the very small chance it breaks, it breaks.
There could also be a built in manual override in those situations. A key that can unlock the bin, for example.

Seriously though, planes and their mechanical or electrical systems on them break all the time. You don't hear people complaining and suggesting we just don't bother, do you? :roll:


GARPD, when I was studying reliability metrics at an airline, overhead bin latches were the second most common source of a delay in the entire airlines (right after seats). Usually delays are short since bins can be tagged as inoperative, but a lock is going to break. With potentially over a hundred installed on the plane, these more complicated latches will break. It is not a very small chance when you multiply how many bins there are and look at what people do to them.

The FAA is not going to like any lock mechanism that has a key. The FAA in recent years has encouraged the use of security tape but no keys that can physically lock anything but the flight deck door. There are security implications. There has to be an override.

Also I think you are underestimating the costs with installing such a system if centralized. There is no wiring to an overhead bin. If it is electric then wiring and indication are necessary. Wiring in that part of the airplane and electric motors also have plenty of reliability problems. It is possible but is going to add weight and impact dispatch reliability. The airlines would protest. The FAA would need significant justification to mandate such a system. If the FAA did everything possible to improve safety, all seats would be backwards facing and have airbags. Locking mechanisms have to prove to be safer and justify themselves.
 
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PITingres
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Re: Chaotic Evacuations may Lead to Recertification

Mon Oct 31, 2016 6:22 pm

rbavfan wrote:
2175301 wrote:
...In my case my "carry-on" is full of medical equipment supplies; and some can be critical depending on the situation. I just cannot immediately replace these (it would take several days - even in a large city...,


I have 6 heart meds and a tens unit. I know of no major city that there is not a hospital or dr. office I can turn to if my pills burn with the plane.


So what? Did you not read what 2175301 wrote, or are you just calling him a liar? Your replacement time for your meds has nothing to do with someone else's situation.

The lack of understanding of the variability of the human condition here on a.net amazes me sometimes.

As for locking bins, I guarantee that someone will try to pry them open, slowing things down even worse, because that's human nature and people aren't necessarily thinking clearly. Plus, that's more weight and more things to break; I'd expect the bins to fail locked-shut enough times to make them a real problem.
Fly, you fools! Fly!
 
winginit
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Re: Chaotic Evacuations may Lead to Recertification

Mon Oct 31, 2016 6:29 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
On some airlines flying smaller frames in the northern areas, you have to be in your winter clothes on take off and landing. It is explained with dying from exposure if something happens and you have to evacuate.


Really? Where? What carrier? I frequently travel to, from, and within Alaska and have never heard of this.
 
Amiga500
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Re: Chaotic Evacuations may Lead to Recertification

Mon Oct 31, 2016 6:39 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
I find this idea of locking the overhead bins pretty strange. If it would be luggage storage only, but I usually store my winter coat there during the flight. Do you want to throw me off the plane in a storm and -20°C without my winter coat?


Yes.

I find it hard to believe anyone could seriously argue otherwise.

You'll survive for a while without your coat. Long enough to make it to a terminal.
 
D L X
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Re: Chaotic Evacuations may Lead to Recertification

Mon Oct 31, 2016 6:40 pm

Newbiepilot wrote:
DLX, where do you get your information regarding cabin door and jetway failures in comparison to overhead bin latches? Overhead bin latches and hinges fail all the time due to people overloading them.

Just based on the fact that these are much more complex pieces of equipment than central locks, which are very mature technology prevalent in almost every car on the road.

Newbiepilot wrote:
A lock is going to have some type of rigging. A door that is ajar but closed may not lock. With over 100 bins on some of the larger planes, the chance of one of them not locking is quite significant. As with anything on an airplane, the cabin door cannot close and plane push back if there is an open maintenance item. A mechanic can simply defer a lock, but if it fails right at departure time, you will get a delay getting the mechanic inside the plane and doing the paperwork.


And given the remoteness of their necessity, I would imagine a failed cabin bin lock would not be a MEL item. If the bin can close, you can fly.
The point, in its context, was that the poster being responded to was coming up with pie-in-the-sky what-ifs as if they were actually significant concerns. I think you actually agree with me that the failures would be infrequent (as are the examples I mentioned) and not a reason to can the idea.

Newbiepilot wrote:
Airlines are going to protest this.


Without a doubt. They also protested smoke detectors. But I would agree (I think) with you that cost would be a bigger hurdle than reliability.
 
Newbiepilot
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Re: Chaotic Evacuations may Lead to Recertification

Mon Oct 31, 2016 6:57 pm

D L X wrote:
Newbiepilot wrote:
DLX, where do you get your information regarding cabin door and jetway failures in comparison to overhead bin latches? Overhead bin latches and hinges fail all the time due to people overloading them.

Just based on the fact that these are much more complex pieces of equipment than central locks, which are very mature technology prevalent in almost every car on the road.

Newbiepilot wrote:
A lock is going to have some type of rigging. A door that is ajar but closed may not lock. With over 100 bins on some of the larger planes, the chance of one of them not locking is quite significant. As with anything on an airplane, the cabin door cannot close and plane push back if there is an open maintenance item. A mechanic can simply defer a lock, but if it fails right at departure time, you will get a delay getting the mechanic inside the plane and doing the paperwork.


And given the remoteness of their necessity, I would imagine a failed cabin bin lock would not be a MEL item. If the bin can close, you can fly.
The point, in its context, was that the poster being responded to was coming up with pie-in-the-sky what-ifs as if they were actually significant concerns. I think you actually agree with me that the failures would be infrequent (as are the examples I mentioned) and not a reason to can the idea.

Newbiepilot wrote:
Airlines are going to protest this.


Without a doubt. They also protested smoke detectors. But I would agree (I think) with you that cost would be a bigger hurdle than reliability.


I don't agree that failures would be infrequent. If we have locks that are reliable 99.9999% of the time, with 40-150 bins per plane and the size of the fleet at a large airline, you have at least one failure a day. It potentially could be a failure at the worst time possible (right when the cabin door is closed) which likely could cause a delay 25% of the time. I also imagine an airturnback on a 12 hour flight because a lock failed closed after takeoff and someone had their critical medication inside happening once every few years.

Yes locks are mature and simple technology, but comparing to your car is not representative of an airplane. Airplanes fly 12 hours a day for their entire 20 year lifespan. In the United States a car might be in use 5% of the time in a 12 year period. Overhead bins get significant abuse. Airlines are going to fight this and I don't think chances are very high that a centralized locking system would be adopted.
 
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AirlineCritic
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Re: Chaotic Evacuations may Lead to Recertification

Mon Oct 31, 2016 7:40 pm

Sadly, there is probably not going to be any easy solutions.

Better instructions: not everyone speaks the language. Not everyone listens. Not everyone agrees with what they hear (as evidenced by this thread!).

Punishments: yeah, but how many of the passengers are going to be informed about that, and even if they are, is it going to influence what they do in a panic situation?

Locked bins: I'm quite certain that there'd be a long line because people are trying to get the bins open.

Recertification: maybe, but I'm not sure the world as a whole is ready to take a financial hit at least not until a sizable number of people die from this problem. So far that hasn't happened, mind you.

Maybe the best thing is indeed what XLA2008 suggested, asking the luggage people to stay onboard while the rest of us exit :-) but see above, in an emergency the passengers wouldn't obey/remember and none of this can't be enforced.

I think what might actually be useful is some minor adjustment in the flow areas for exits -- taking off a seat here and there to make sure there's ample space to exit. But again, not sure if we're ready to bear the cost.

Another thing that I personally very much wish would happen is prohibit the bulk roll-ons. There's really no reason for them, and they are already making a mess in regular operations, see how long boarding takes when people toil around with their oversize roll-ons.

Finally, I'd personally prefer to see not the locked bins solution but the pyrotechnic bin ejection solution. "Ladies and gentleman, the plane is burning, please evacuate. For your convenience, your MacBooks and roll-ons have already been ejected well clear of the airplane. Have a nice day."
 
DTWPurserBoy
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Re: Chaotic Evacuations may Lead to Recertification

Mon Oct 31, 2016 7:55 pm

D L X wrote:
yak42 wrote:
You may as well sit down and wait to choke and be consumed by flames as run out into extreme conditions without appropriate clothing. Hypothermia and death will take a matter of minutes out on an exposed runway in some conditions and well before the passengers can be taken into a warm terminal. I don't think having people wear coats for take off and landing is workable.


A matter of minutes, huh?

There was a Continental DC-10 that crashed on takeoff many years ago. The plane was destroyed. All but 2 passengers survived. The 2 that died were killed instantly when they were INCINERATED going out an exit slide that led into the fire. Minutes are longer than instants.
They died because the flight attendant tried to redirect them away from the fire outside door 3L and they shoved her aside and opened it anyway and ran out onto the burning wing. If people want to do something stupid let them die.


Freezing to death in the elements. If only there were a fire nearby for warmth. . .

Seriously, "freezing to death" has to be the absolute lamest reason imaginable to not block access to overhead bins in an evac.
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DTWPurserBoy
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Re: Chaotic Evacuations may Lead to Recertification

Mon Oct 31, 2016 7:59 pm

I can tell you with absolute certainty that if you want to stay on a burning airplane to retrieve your bag full of dirty underwear and retrieve a precious charging cable you are too dumb to try to save.

What it is going to take is another incident where the airplane explodes and those messing with the overhead bins are found as charred stumps in the wreckage then someone might get a clue. You cannot legislate human behavior. Remember, this is the "Me, me, me it's all about me" generation.
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XLA2008
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Re: Chaotic Evacuations may Lead to Recertification

Mon Oct 31, 2016 8:10 pm

I don't think locking the bins is the solution... you need to bear in mind we keep safety equipment in the overhead bins, some of that equipment we need to get to once we have finished evacuating and we are evacuating ourselves, such as medical equipment, first aid kits etc... what your required to take varies from airline to airline, however my point is the solution needs to be extreme penalties and fines for those that hinder the evacuation of an aircraft, just like smoking onboard, you will get a fine and potentially depending on the situation and result of it you could face criminal charges, smoking is endangering the aircraft and passenger safety because you could cause a fire!

Same instance should be applied to stopping for baggage during an evacuation, make sure you say it during the safety announcements, post signs throughout the cabin, put it on the safety card, make announcements about it... people will soon get the picture, now if they choose to ignore that warning and proceed to collect baggage then you will face heavy fines and should your action result in the death of other passengers then you face manslaughter charges!

That way... if you want to ruin your life by going to jail, bankrupting yourself with the fines and living with the fact that you killed people all so you could have your stupid coat or your iPad... well so be it, the rest of us that survive will continue to live our lives and you... well you won't!! And neither will those people you ultimately killed!

Yes that's an extreme situation however it only has to happen once for it to be one time too many!

You also need to remind yourself that the crew are the last off the aircraft, we stay to get you out to make sure your ass is out of that burning plane, so you getting your coat, iPad whatever is putting my life at risk because it means I will be onboard longer! Just remember it's my job to save the majority! And if your preventing me doing that, well I'm leaving you behind, and getting every other willing person out!
“For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and there you will long to return.“
 
mpdpilot
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Re: Chaotic Evacuations may Lead to Recertification

Mon Oct 31, 2016 8:34 pm

Rajahdhani wrote:
So, why not expand gate-check (or allow passengers to check their 'carry-on' for free), and allow passengers the right to carry only one 5 kg bag. Hell, limit it to the size of a briefcase, a mid-sized purse, or as big as the biggest Ipad (or non-exploding Samsung device). The vast majority of passengers now do not access their overhead contents at all, however they do use what is in their bags (located at their feet/on their seat). The overhead bins would remain, and for those with medical exceptions (needing to carry medical equipment/medicine), and special needs (baby bags) and could be extended to special equipment (such as expensive cameras, or specialized equipment), and/or offer more space for the situations where you just have to push the plane - and not have the time to then have to ask people to 'volunteer' space and gate check at the most time sensitive moment.


I have always thought that this should be more of a thing. I love the conveince of gate-checking luggage on regional flights. I drop my roller bag, and take my backpack on board. Boarding and deplaning goes faster as the people with luggage wait, and everyone else does not. No worry about lost luggage as you transport it through the airport. And as a tall person, perhaps they could make the overhead bins smaller and provide more head room.
One mile of highway gets you one mile, one mile of runway gets you anywhere.
 
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XLA2008
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Re: Chaotic Evacuations may Lead to Recertification

Mon Oct 31, 2016 9:28 pm

mpdpilot wrote:
Rajahdhani wrote:
So, why not expand gate-check (or allow passengers to check their 'carry-on' for free), and allow passengers the right to carry only one 5 kg bag. Hell, limit it to the size of a briefcase, a mid-sized purse, or as big as the biggest Ipad (or non-exploding Samsung device). The vast majority of passengers now do not access their overhead contents at all, however they do use what is in their bags (located at their feet/on their seat). The overhead bins would remain, and for those with medical exceptions (needing to carry medical equipment/medicine), and special needs (baby bags) and could be extended to special equipment (such as expensive cameras, or specialized equipment), and/or offer more space for the situations where you just have to push the plane - and not have the time to then have to ask people to 'volunteer' space and gate check at the most time sensitive moment.


I have always thought that this should be more of a thing. I love the conveince of gate-checking luggage on regional flights. I drop my roller bag, and take my backpack on board. Boarding and deplaning goes faster as the people with luggage wait, and everyone else does not. No worry about lost luggage as you transport it through the airport. And as a tall person, perhaps they could make the overhead bins smaller and provide more head room.


It works well if it's a small aircraft, but could you imagine doing that for an A380 with 400+ passengers? Taking a 10 hour flight and bags full of crap they "need" for that flight... it would just be chaos and pax having arguments with staff! I like the idea just logistically could be very difficult.
“For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and there you will long to return.“
 
bennett123
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Re: Chaotic Evacuations may Lead to Recertification

Mon Oct 31, 2016 10:15 pm

Seems that one day hundreds will die because some pratt wants to save his ipad.

Some on here apparently take the view that 'these things happen'.
 
mpdpilot
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Re: Chaotic Evacuations may Lead to Recertification

Mon Oct 31, 2016 10:47 pm

XLA2008 wrote:
mpdpilot wrote:
I have always thought that this should be more of a thing. I love the conveince of gate-checking luggage on regional flights. I drop my roller bag, and take my backpack on board. Boarding and deplaning goes faster as the people with luggage wait, and everyone else does not. No worry about lost luggage as you transport it through the airport. And as a tall person, perhaps they could make the overhead bins smaller and provide more head room.


It works well if it's a small aircraft, but could you imagine doing that for an A380 with 400+ passengers? Taking a 10 hour flight and bags full of crap they "need" for that flight... it would just be chaos and pax having arguments with staff! I like the idea just logistically could be very difficult.


I agree, I just like the idea of it for my own conveinence, logistically it would be a challenge. For an A380, might as well just put a baggage claim carosel in the gate area. Gate area crowding would have yet another thing to have passenger stand in front of.
One mile of highway gets you one mile, one mile of runway gets you anywhere.
 
zaspect
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Re: Chaotic Evacuations may Lead to Recertification

Tue Nov 01, 2016 12:31 am

tullamarine wrote:
Recent evacuations have taken up to 270 seconds or 3 times the legislated maximum, principally because passengers have been trying to retireve cabin baggage. This has led to speculation as to what FAA and EASA will do in response. [/url]


My two cents:
Ultimately the regulator will need to judge if the cost of any additional measures is 'worth' the lives saved as a result. For example, if cost of additional measures is <=~$1 million per life saved.
If it is not, we would be better investing those resources improving safety elsewhere (pilot training, automotive standards, industrial safety standards...).

In line with this:
- it is probably cheaper to have new standards incorporated in new designs than it is to force all existing aircraft to be changed.
- as a general rule, I think an approach that changes the testing regime to something more representative of a real evacuation would be more cost effective than mandating a particular technology (e.g. locking overhead bins). I.E. Let the regulator set the standards, and let the airframe manufacturers come up with the most cost-effective ways of meeting them.

There a range of possible changes that would improve safety:
- Technical changes to improve evacuation speed: locking overhead bins, larger doors, wider isles.
- Technical changes to making an aircraft cabin survivable for longer: changing cabin materials to be less flammable.
- Legal changes: e.g. making it a criminal offense to take luggage out of an overhead bin in an emergency.
 
Veetwo
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Re: Chaotic Evacuations may Lead to Recertification

Tue Nov 01, 2016 12:50 am

This is what happens when an airline charges crazy fees for checked bags.
Airline employee and Crohn's sufferer.
 
D L X
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Re: Chaotic Evacuations may Lead to Recertification

Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:41 am

Newbiepilot wrote:
It potentially could be a failure at the worst time possible (right when the cabin door is closed) which likely could cause a delay 25% of the time.
That's assuming that a failed lock is an MEL item, which I don't think would be appropriate.
Newbiepilot wrote:
I also imagine an airturnback on a 12 hour flight because a lock failed closed after takeoff and someone had their critical medication inside happening once every few years.
Sounds like a pretty remote event! Less remote than evacuations!
 
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XLA2008
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Re: Chaotic Evacuations may Lead to Recertification

Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:52 am

D L X wrote:
Newbiepilot wrote:
It potentially could be a failure at the worst time possible (right when the cabin door is closed) which likely could cause a delay 25% of the time.
That's assuming that a failed lock is an MEL item, which I don't think would be appropriate.
Newbiepilot wrote:
I also imagine an airturnback on a 12 hour flight because a lock failed closed after takeoff and someone had their critical medication inside happening once every few years.
Sounds like a pretty remote event! Less remote than evacuations!


Well depends because if a lock failed on the overhead bins it would end up with a diversion due to the fact crew would have no access to safety equipment, oxygen bottles, first aid kits, defibs, fire extinguishers, infant life vests, spare life vests, some aircraft life rafts, the aircraft cannot remain operational without access to mandatory safety equipment... so you might be suprised as to how often that could happen!

In fact if any safety equipment falls below minimum you can't even leave the gate until you have either topped up or replaced the equipment, so that sort of failure inflight could be catastrophic! Again it's dependent on how reliable this "locking" system could potentially be, however just down to the sheer fact that a lot of safety equipment is stowed in the overhead bins I can't see this ever being introduced to begin with, I feel like this would be a serious safety issue on its own! And I'm am not a fan of this idea!

Safety equipment is located in various different overhead bins throughout the cabin so crew can access what they need within ease from wherever they are in the aircraft, so you would have to make the overhead bins with equipment ones that don't lock, so then your gonna have some that do and some that don't, sounds like a huge headache on top of being a safety issue!

I stick by what I say by introducing fines and criminal charges against those hindering or preventing the safe and efficient evacuation of an aircraft!
“For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and there you will long to return.“
 
DeltaB717
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Re: Chaotic Evacuations may Lead to Recertification

Tue Nov 01, 2016 3:03 am

IPFreely wrote:
tullamarine wrote:
Recent evacuations have taken up to 270 seconds or 3 times the legislated maximum, principally because passengers have been trying to retireve cabin baggage.


This isn't a fact, it's the author's speculation. And he offers no evidence to back up his statement.


You're right, and this is all too common with this particular 'journalist' - his 'facts' are, sadly, all too often incorrect (sometimes blatantly), but he is held up as one of our country's foremost aviation experts.

In any case, he does raise a very valid point which is that, clearly, politely reminding passengers not to take their carry on with them, wear high heels and record video when evacuating isn't working and something should be done about it before something awful happens as a result. What that is, I don't know - there have been many suggestions and there are pros and cons of all of them.
 
quiet1
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Re: Chaotic Evacuations may Lead to Recertification

Tue Nov 01, 2016 3:14 am

XLA2008 wrote:
Well depends because if a lock failed on the overhead bins it would end up with a diversion due to the fact crew would have no access to safety equipment, oxygen bottles, first aid kits, defibs, fire extinguishers, infant life vests, spare life vests, some aircraft life rafts, the aircraft cannot remain operational without access to mandatory safety equipment... so you might be suprised as to how often that could happen!


I thought overhead bins with safety equipment were off limits for passenger stowage? If not, then they should be if the passenger bins were to be locked. The bins with safety equipment would probably not have the locking device.

I suspect there would be some safety release with a tool that the F/A crew would have to release any "stuck" doors after landing.
 
DXTraveler
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Re: Chaotic Evacuations may Lead to Recertification

Tue Nov 01, 2016 3:16 am

Were do this "rehap trucks" exists? I have seen the fire fighting equipment on airports, I have seen ambulances at airports. I have never seen any equipment to move people away from an accident apart from normal busses or airport busses, unable to move but under good conditions and never off road, were are the rehab trucks hidden?
I have seen videos from accidents and never seen people movers but people walking.

On some airlines flying smaller frames in the northern areas, you have to be in your winter clothes on take off and landing. It is explained with dying from exposure if something happens and you have to evacuate.[/quote]

No need to debate this with you. Here's how I see it. Feel free to go into the overhead for your precious jacket or anything else. But in doing so if you hinder my ability to evacuate the plane in an emergency situation, I'm likely to lower my shoulder and clear the way, just like a fullback at the goal line.
 
IPFreely
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Re: Chaotic Evacuations may Lead to Recertification

Tue Nov 01, 2016 3:18 am

DualQual wrote:
If you're enough of an inconsiderate ass to not get off a burning plane you better hope I'm not behind you trying to get out while you decide to fumble for whatever replaceable piece of luggage you need. I'm either busting your nose or shoving you out of the way.


seat38a wrote:
I will be personally, SHOVING, PUSHING AND PUNCHING YOU out of the way if your dumb ass was blocking my way during an evacuation trying to get your shit (coat, luggage etc) out of the overhead bin. And I HOPE everyone else behind me remembers to give you a good swift kick in the face as they rushed to the slides.


Brewfangrb wrote:
As I've said before: If you stop for ANY REASON unrelated to the actual evacuation of the aircraft, I will stop at nothing to remove you from my way. Your life does not come before mine and I will use any means of physical force necessary to evacuation.


garpd wrote:
Agreed, I have often said, in an evacuation such as a burning plane or one that threatens to go up in flame, anyone that stops me from getting to an exit will get a swift punch or kick to remind them to get moving. The same can be said for those ignorant PAX that are sitting on an exit row and pay no attention to the notices on how to operate them. If they stop me getting out because they're busy figuring it out or asking for instructions, I will drag them forcibly out of the dame way and possible given them a swift kick for their troubles.


fallap wrote:
For those trying to grab your precious items while I've got flames in my arse, you better get a move on or you'll end up under my leather jackboots <3 It's nothing personal, but I'd rather murder you than die in such an instance. .


garpd wrote:
They will be quickly rendered no longer an obstacle in whatever way is quickest. Could be shoving them in an empty seat, could be using them as a carpet. The people behind me will be thankful for it.


UAL777UK wrote:
I can tell you right now, if you are ever in front of me and I need to get out of a plane in an emergency I will come through you like a pin ball.


Some good contenders here. I'm really having trouble deciding which of these internet tough guys is the toughest.

Moose135 wrote:
I think half the people claiming they will punch, kick, trample, etc. those getting bags during an evacuation will be panicking themselves if it really hits the fan, and cause problems in their own right.


On further review I am pretty sure Moose is correct. In an actual emergency the above posters would be too busy wetting themselves to do any of the nose busting, shoving, pushing, punching, kicking, and murdering that they like to boast about. They are amusing, though.
 
D L X
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Re: Chaotic Evacuations may Lead to Recertification

Tue Nov 01, 2016 3:28 am

XLA2008 wrote:

Well depends because if a lock failed on the overhead bins it would end up with a diversion due to the fact crew would have no access to safety equipment, oxygen bottles, first aid kits, defibs, fire extinguishers, infant life vests, spare life vests, some aircraft life rafts, the aircraft cannot remain operational without access to mandatory safety equipment... so you might be suprised as to how often that could happen!


Then don't put the locks on the bins that house the safety equipment.

This is how engineering works -- we spot the issues, and design around them. We don't spot the issues and decide that because there are issues, we throw in the towel.
 
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SomebodyInTLS
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Re: Chaotic Evacuations may Lead to Recertification

Tue Nov 01, 2016 3:40 am

I've suggested it before in another thread about (the pointlessness of) the safety video; I think a programme to provide airport simulators for evacuation drills would be a) very educational and b) fun.

I myself would certainly like to try it out to see exactly how that overwing exit works and if I can manage to get that life-jacket strap around my waist the right way...
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2175301
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Re: Chaotic Evacuations may Lead to Recertification

Tue Nov 01, 2016 4:36 am

D L X wrote:
XLA2008 wrote:

Well depends because if a lock failed on the overhead bins it would end up with a diversion due to the fact crew would have no access to safety equipment, oxygen bottles, first aid kits, defibs, fire extinguishers, infant life vests, spare life vests, some aircraft life rafts, the aircraft cannot remain operational without access to mandatory safety equipment... so you might be suprised as to how often that could happen!


Then don't put the locks on the bins that house the safety equipment.

This is how engineering works -- we spot the issues, and design around them. We don't spot the issues and decide that because there are issues, we throw in the towel.


As an Engineer... I can safely say that you cannot engineer designs that fundamentally resolve human reaction issues - especially in stressful and unexpected situations. Back in the 50's and 60's it was felt that Engineers and Scientist could solve all problems. It failed miserably when applied to issues dealing with people. You can solve technical issues; you cannot solve human issues. I do not see locking the overhead bins as a solution to people grabbing (or attempting to grab) their stuff. We need another solution. My proposal is that as a safety policy that all normal luggage be checked baggage, and carry-on be limited in size and content. That means that the airlines would have to offer at least 1 bag checked free.

Of course, nothing will happen until there is an accident where people die because of evacuation with belongings as a significant issue. That is how the Airline Safety industry works. Essentially all of our major safety improvements came from loss of aircraft and loss of life incidents (or at least major damage and significant injury). That is the same way the building codes developed, medical codes and procedures, and nuclear plant codes and procedures.

I wish you all the best,
 
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XLA2008
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Re: Chaotic Evacuations may Lead to Recertification

Tue Nov 01, 2016 5:10 am

quiet1 wrote:
XLA2008 wrote:
Well depends because if a lock failed on the overhead bins it would end up with a diversion due to the fact crew would have no access to safety equipment, oxygen bottles, first aid kits, defibs, fire extinguishers, infant life vests, spare life vests, some aircraft life rafts, the aircraft cannot remain operational without access to mandatory safety equipment... so you might be suprised as to how often that could happen!


I thought overhead bins with safety equipment were off limits for passenger stowage? If not, then they should be if the passenger bins were to be locked. The bins with safety equipment would probably not have the locking device.

I suspect there would be some safety release with a tool that the F/A crew would have to release any "stuck" doors after landing.


Those bins are marked with placards and usually kept closed during boarding as to prevent people from putting there bags in there... do you think this stops people doing that? Lol of course not, they stuff there bags in on top of equipment or behind equipment! We always tell them to move the bags and we make sure they do!
Last edited by XLA2008 on Tue Nov 01, 2016 5:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
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XLA2008
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Re: Chaotic Evacuations may Lead to Recertification

Tue Nov 01, 2016 5:16 am

D L X wrote:
XLA2008 wrote:

Well depends because if a lock failed on the overhead bins it would end up with a diversion due to the fact crew would have no access to safety equipment, oxygen bottles, first aid kits, defibs, fire extinguishers, infant life vests, spare life vests, some aircraft life rafts, the aircraft cannot remain operational without access to mandatory safety equipment... so you might be suprised as to how often that could happen!


Then don't put the locks on the bins that house the safety equipment.

This is how engineering works -- we spot the issues, and design around them. We don't spot the issues and decide that because there are issues, we throw in the towel.


I get the point of engineering... but seems very very expensive, time consuming... you would encounter not only having to develop a system that works, but also one that is totally different for each aircraft type and each airline, every airline has equipment in different places and within those airlines every aircraft can be different! I just don't see it working, but I am no engineer so I wouldn't argue this point to anyone who is! Just putting out there a few of the many complications that would need to be overcome for this to be effective! You would also need to consider the additional weight this would put on an airframe and that then costs fuel... plus the amount to install, create, develop, introduce, getting the airlines and individual countries around the world to agree, I get the idea behind it, I just think too many obstacles to overcome!

That is just my 2 cents worth, like I said I'm no engineer and I don't know the process or politics involved to do anything like this!! So just saying some of the things I think, which without knowledge bear little relevance! Lol
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XLA2008
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Re: Chaotic Evacuations may Lead to Recertification

Tue Nov 01, 2016 5:20 am

2175301 wrote:
D L X wrote:
XLA2008 wrote:

Well depends because if a lock failed on the overhead bins it would end up with a diversion due to the fact crew would have no access to safety equipment, oxygen bottles, first aid kits, defibs, fire extinguishers, infant life vests, spare life vests, some aircraft life rafts, the aircraft cannot remain operational without access to mandatory safety equipment... so you might be suprised as to how often that could happen!


Then don't put the locks on the bins that house the safety equipment.

This is how engineering works -- we spot the issues, and design around them. We don't spot the issues and decide that because there are issues, we throw in the towel.


As an Engineer... I can safely say that you cannot engineer designs that fundamentally resolve human reaction issues - especially in stressful and unexpected situations. Back in the 50's and 60's it was felt that Engineers and Scientist could solve all problems. It failed miserably when applied to issues dealing with people. You can solve technical issues; you cannot solve human issues. I do not see locking the overhead bins as a solution to people grabbing (or attempting to grab) their stuff. We need another solution. My proposal is that as a safety policy that all normal luggage be checked baggage, and carry-on be limited in size and content. That means that the airlines would have to offer at least 1 bag checked free.

Of course, nothing will happen until there is an accident where people die because of evacuation with belongings as a significant issue. That is how the Airline Safety industry works. Essentially all of our major safety improvements came from loss of aircraft and loss of life incidents (or at least major damage and significant injury). That is the same way the building codes developed, medical codes and procedures, and nuclear plant codes and procedures.

I wish you all the best,


I also do not agree with the idea of locking overhead bins! I said that in the post you quoted!

The idea behind penalties and criminal charges is to reinforce that into people's minds during the flight, people would then become conscious of the consequences of behaving in that manner thus improving the chances of altering human behavior in an evacuation procedure! This of course will not work for everybody but it will at least alleviate a few! I mean it's common knowledge you don't smoke onboard and the consequences if you do, however you still have that rare one or two that try there luck! Still the majority of people nowadays will not smoke onboard because they know they will be in a lot of trouble if they do! So apply the same procedures and rules to evacuations and getting luggage! It will take time but as it becomes common knowledge less people will be likely to try and get there hand luggage.

I mean you can also implement baggage sizes allowed onboard to just small bags everything else checked etc which will also go towards helping alleviate the situation, along with fines and criminal charges if necessary, all of this can help try to mold the way people think and what they do, and for those that choose to ignore it at least what they are taking is small and will reduce the amount of time potentially wasted getting it!

Bags are also an issue in the sense that not only does it slow down an evacuation but it could also depending on the type of bag, but it could also rip the slide as you descend rendering that exit INOP! Their are many reasons as to why we don't want you taking your bags! Same reason you remove high heeled shoes and sharp objects among other reasons!
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AirlineCritic
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Re: Chaotic Evacuations may Lead to Recertification

Tue Nov 01, 2016 7:38 am

Veetwo wrote:
This is what happens when an airline charges crazy fees for checked bags.


This.
 
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garpd
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Re: Chaotic Evacuations may Lead to Recertification

Tue Nov 01, 2016 7:51 am

IPFreely wrote:

Some good contenders here. I'm really having trouble deciding which of these internet tough guys is the toughest.


You don't know me from Adam.

IPFreely wrote:
On further review I am pretty sure Moose is correct. In an actual emergency the above posters would be too busy wetting themselves to do any of the nose busting, shoving, pushing, punching, kicking, and murdering that they like to boast about. They are amusing, though.


Yes, people can panic and revert to memory items. But if one of these people in panic causes my life or that of someone I care for to be put at risk, they WILL be made a non issue in the most expedient way possible. A punch or slap can snap people out of their panic driven trance. A push can also do the same, but if neither works, something else needs to be done.

Are you telling me that on a plane that is burning, on which your exit is being blocked by some schmuck going for his baggage, with flames licking your arse, that you seriously are just going to just stand there and wait for that schmuck the maybe snap out of it?

Pull the other one and don't judge me with your smug superior like attitude when you don't know me from Adam.
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UAL777UK
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Re: Chaotic Evacuations may Lead to Recertification

Tue Nov 01, 2016 8:15 am

garpd wrote:
IPFreely wrote:

Some good contenders here. I'm really having trouble deciding which of these internet tough guys is the toughest.


You don't know me from Adam.

IPFreely wrote:
On further review I am pretty sure Moose is correct. In an actual emergency the above posters would be too busy wetting themselves to do any of the nose busting, shoving, pushing, punching, kicking, and murdering that they like to boast about. They are amusing, though.


Yes, people can panic and revert to memory items. But if one of these people in panic causes my life or that of someone I care for to be put at risk, they WILL be made a non issue in the most expedient way possible. A punch or slap can snap people out of their panic driven trance. A push can also do the same, but if neither works, something else needs to be done.

Are you telling me that on a plane that is burning, on which your exit is being blocked by some schmuck going for his baggage, with flames licking your arse, that you seriously are just going to just stand there and wait for that schmuck the maybe snap out of it?

Pull the other one and don't judge me with your smug superior like attitude when you don't know me from Adam.


garpd, could not agree with you more.
 
USAirKid
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Re: Chaotic Evacuations may Lead to Recertification

Tue Nov 01, 2016 8:18 am

smi0006 wrote:
As another thought- and perhaps some other airline crew can elaborate, maybe the crew commands need to be revised?

At my airline commands were -'EVACUATE, EVACUATE, EVACUATE - LEAVE EVERYTHING BEHIND, LEAVE EVERYTHING BEHIND, EVACUATE, EVACUATE, EVACUATE'

Where as the EK and AA recordings, crew seem to be commanding - 'JUMP & SLIDE, JUMP & SLIDE'

I may have missed some of their commands, just a thought, people can figure out how to get down the slide, but may need a prompt to leave their baggage as not everyone will realise how serious the danger is. It certainly wasn't snowing in Dubai so no one needed a coat.


I'm also kindof curious why there aren't automated announcements in addition to the crew orders. Have it blare for the first several seconds of the evacuation constantly, then perhaps periodically. I'd be curious to know if there has been some investigation if the sequence of the FAs opening the exit and yelling for the evacuation has been studied? Do people start evacuating and getting their luggage while the FAs are opening the exits?

While there has been a bit of speculation as to what passengers would do with a locked bin, have their been any studies with real people? The studies in the aftermath of British Airtours 28M provided a significant amount of insight into potential problems and solutions during evacuations, its time we study the current problems, with actual trials if necessary.
 
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angusjt
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Re: Chaotic Evacuations may Lead to Recertification

Tue Nov 01, 2016 9:55 am

Perhaps a lock can be installed onto the stowage handles which is engaged in the case of an emergency
 
Newbiepilot
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Re: Chaotic Evacuations may Lead to Recertification

Tue Nov 01, 2016 10:55 am

D L X wrote:
Newbiepilot wrote:
It potentially could be a failure at the worst time possible (right when the cabin door is closed) which likely could cause a delay 25% of the time.
That's assuming that a failed lock is an MEL item, which I don't think would be appropriate.
Newbiepilot wrote:
I also imagine an airturnback on a 12 hour flight because a lock failed closed after takeoff and someone had their critical medication inside happening once every few years.
Sounds like a pretty remote event! Less remote than evacuations!


I would assume a lock would be an Mel item since its justification is safety. If it wasn't an airline could just deactivate all the locks and save the hassle.
 
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SomebodyInTLS
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Re: Chaotic Evacuations may Lead to Recertification

Tue Nov 01, 2016 11:06 am

angusjt wrote:
Perhaps a lock can be installed onto the stowage handles which is engaged in the case of an emergency


If you mean *only* during an emergency then no - that takes away all of the "educational" value of being repeatedly told that "cabin bags will be locked away whenever the seatbelt sign is on" or whatever. And that message will be reinforced whenever anyone tries to open it when they shouldn't since they'll find it locked. And I'd put a little red light in the handle for good measure. Maybe even a warning beep to shame the idiots who try.

You need people to instinctively know these things precisely so they don't try it during an evacuation!

In fact, for people worried about needing a coat, their passport, etc. it could actually make them more prepared during take-off and landing...
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garpd
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Re: Chaotic Evacuations may Lead to Recertification

Tue Nov 01, 2016 11:23 am

I'm still not seeing any good reason not to lock the bins for take off and landing.

Reasons given so far:

The locks my fail on arrival - A manual key can solve that. A small access hole beside each mechanism allows a special key to be inserted and manually forces the lock open, like you find on most locking mechanisms on the planet.
The locks might fail on boarding - Ok, so that flight goes with bins unlocked, big deal
The locks would be too expensive to retrofit - So was TCAS at one point, so was fire retardant insulation too.
People would still try to open then in an emergency - Yup, People.are.stupid. But, as the feature of the bins being locked spreads and the knowledge of that becomes an everyday thing, like using a seatbelt, less and less will try.
I won't be able to get to my coat - Seriously, really? Bring a jumper and tie it round your waist, if you're that concerned.
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na
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Re: Chaotic Evacuations may Lead to Recertification

Tue Nov 01, 2016 11:31 am

Recertification is nonsense. You´ll still have some idiots on board, or infirm people, or whatever obstacle to super quick evacuation.
As for those people putting the rescue of their luggage before the life of others - punish them. All evacuated passengers are collected and carried away together anyway, and the ones who have luggage with them - first confiscate that luggage until the bags of the other, more lawful and mindful passengers have been taken off the plane, and then take them to court and let them pay a hefty fine that is in a healthy relation to their income.
 
kalvado
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Re: Chaotic Evacuations may Lead to Recertification

Tue Nov 01, 2016 11:40 am

I just hope new recertification tests would include representative pax population. For a 737 heading from Florida that includes: 3-4 wheelchair folks, 5-7 kids under 10 years, several people who didn't sleep last night, someone with a hangover..

Oh, and revoke certification from SQ for keeping pax in the cabin on the ground for 15 minutes after emergency landing - sitting on top of active fire..
 
ozglobal
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Re: Chaotic Evacuations may Lead to Recertification

Tue Nov 01, 2016 11:53 am

MSPSXMFLIER wrote:
KLDC10 wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:

... I wear a light jacket and in the pockets are kept my passport, boarding pass and cell phone. If I were in a situation where I had to quickly evacuate an aircraft which went up in flames and I had to leave behind an iPod, iPad or camera inside of my backpack, well, so be it. It's only stuff and stuff can be replaced.


Exactly. This is what any reasonable person can and should do. Those who choose to delay others' escape in an evacuation, against repeated instructions, by going after their stupid stuff are guilty of life-threateningly selfish behaviour. I put this in the same category as DUI, reckless driving, neglect of children and many other crimes of wanton irresponsibility. The pursers and stewards on ocean liners carried small fire arms during evacuations for this very reason: one person's panic and selfish irresponsibility cannot be allowed to kill scores of others (and it certainly will). If it came to it, they would just shoot you...
When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
 
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seahawk
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Re: Chaotic Evacuations may Lead to Recertification

Tue Nov 01, 2016 1:23 pm

Veetwo wrote:
This is what happens when an airline charges crazy fees for checked bags.


This!! It would make much more sense to charge for oversized hand luggage than for the luggage in the hold.
 
Amiga500
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Re: Chaotic Evacuations may Lead to Recertification

Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:35 pm

Newbiepilot wrote:
As with anything on an airplane, the cabin door cannot close and plane push back if there is an open maintenance item.


Every aircraft has a Master Minimum Equipment List (MMEL) - which is downselected by the operator and regulator into a Minimum Equipment List - if those items aren't functioning, the plane ain't flying. Locks on the overhead bins would most assuredly not be on either MMEL or MEL!
 
IPFreely
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Re: Chaotic Evacuations may Lead to Recertification

Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:48 pm

garpd wrote:
But if one of these people in panic causes my life or that of someone I care for to be put at risk, they WILL be made a non issue in the most expedient way possible.


You don't know me from Adam and you think you will punch, kick, or shove me out of your way? Any attempts to do so from a keyboard cowboy such as yourself would result in you being the last person off the plane, if you were able to get off at all. You see, anyone can be an internet tough guy. Moose has it right: the tougher they are behind a keyboard, the wimpier they are in real life.
 
drgmobile
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Re: Chaotic Evacuations may Lead to Recertification

Tue Nov 01, 2016 3:06 pm

Nearly everything in this article is speculative on the part of the reporter. None of the measures listed come from any regulator. The only external comments are a reference to the British Civil Aviation Authority's warning to its airlines: Stop passengers taking their hand luggage off with them in an emergency evacuation, and a comment from the Australian flight attendant's union that "There is a very real potential for a catastrophe."
 
DTWPurserBoy
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Re: Chaotic Evacuations may Lead to Recertification

Tue Nov 01, 2016 3:08 pm

SomebodyInTLS wrote:
I've suggested it before in another thread about (the pointlessness of) the safety video; I think a programme to provide airport simulators for evacuation drills would be a) very educational and b) fun.

I myself would certainly like to try it out to see exactly how that overwing exit works and if I can manage to get that life-jacket strap around my waist the right way...


The problem is evacuations are dangerous and people generally get hurt. Having looked down the slide from the cockpit of a 747 it is about 4 floors straight down. In virtually every evacuation people get scraped, burned or bones broken. Women wearing hose will have them melt to their legs. Others jump, bounce and go over the edge down to the concrete.

Airplane evacuations are the wrong place as an entertainment venue. There are enough videos online that you can watch.
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SomebodyInTLS
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Re: Chaotic Evacuations may Lead to Recertification

Tue Nov 01, 2016 3:30 pm

DTWPurserBoy wrote:
SomebodyInTLS wrote:
Airplane evacuations are the wrong place as an entertainment venue. There are enough videos online that you can watch.


Seriously - I've seen thousands of videos and I'm 100% certain that I would still be unsure what I'm doing. A couple of goes in a simulation drill would do wonders.

Of course you don't have to jump down a four-storey slide! I'm not talking about using a real aircraft, I'm thinking of a small cabin mock-up with a couple of rows of seats and functional doors representing a few common configurations. Handful of people... play with the different doors... try the lifevest on... maybe a small slide to jump down... general briefing... then end with a quick drill (oxygens masks drop, lights out, evacuate!) to put it all in practice.

Assuming it was goverment / regulatory body sponsored (mandatory?) you could develop a cheap, standard kit and roll it out all across the board. I think it would be a cost-effective way of increasing passenger safety.
"As with most things related to aircraft design, it's all about the trade-offs and much more nuanced than A.net likes to make out."
 
ckfred
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Re: Chaotic Evacuations may Lead to Recertification

Tue Nov 01, 2016 3:33 pm

Here is an observation. Twenty years ago, we didn't have laptops and smartphones. Cell phones were often clunky things that a lot of people didn't travel with, because travel outside of the home area meant roaming and a lot of extra charges. For every person who had a PDA (personal digital assistant), there were probably 3 people who used some sort of planning book for appointments, expenses, and phone numbers.

So, there wasn't the inclination to grab a bag before an emergency evacuation.

If a briefcase went up in a fire, chances are that there were paper copies of documents at an office, or they were on the hard drive of a secretary's desktop computer.

Now, the typical business traveler could have a laptop that belongs to his employer, a personal tablet, and 2 smartphones, one of which belongs to the employer. Lose company devices, and there are a lot of hoops to jump through at the office, even if there is a circumstance such as an emergency evacuation of an airplane. I know several people who have suffered through severe repercussions, including termination, for not properly handling company laptops.

It seems to me that if we don't want passengers trying to grab belongings out of overhead bins, two things need to be done.

First, I wouldn't have a problem with the concept of locking the bins, save for the bins that contain emergency equipment.

Second, modifying the safety briefing (whether verbal or video) to indicate that bins are locked for take-offs and landings, and that passengers should not attempt to open bins, if there is a need to evacuate an aircraft.
 
cesar666cu
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Re: Chaotic Evacuations may Lead to Recertification

Tue Nov 01, 2016 3:35 pm

I think people don't really understand the concept of this certification in 90 sec.
The goal of it is not to get everybody in a real life emergency in 90 sec.
But it's a standard way to measure a requirements so that all the manufacturer are on the same level.

Now if in a real life emergency it takes is too long... reduce the certification requirements to 60sec.
But then again people will say nobody can do that in a real life emergency...
 
Amiga500
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Re: Chaotic Evacuations may Lead to Recertification

Tue Nov 01, 2016 3:53 pm

IPFreely wrote:
You don't know me from Adam and you think you will punch, kick, or shove me out of your way?


No harm man, but if you were d*cking around looking for baggage with a real danger to life and holding me and others up - if you did eventually wake up and make it off the plane you'd likely be living off soup for a few months.

I don't care who you are - if your looking at the overhead bins you ain't taking a haymaker on your temple.


BTW - I'm not one of the originals who you are referring to - but attempting to declare yourself above others is annoying.
Last edited by Amiga500 on Tue Nov 01, 2016 3:56 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
Amiga500
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Re: Chaotic Evacuations may Lead to Recertification

Tue Nov 01, 2016 3:54 pm

cesar666cu wrote:
I think people don't really understand the concept of this certification in 90 sec.


That is true - there is no perceptible increase in risk from 89 to 91 seconds.

But the bigger issue is that evacs are getting unnecessarily delayed, probably by minutes, due to people doing things they shouldn't. Over the span of a minute, risk does rise and not insubstantially.

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