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seat38a
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Re: Chaotic Evacuations may Lead to Recertification

Mon Oct 31, 2016 3:31 am

mjoelnir wrote:
XLA2008 wrote:
yak42 wrote:
Many people on here seem to think that you can simply run out into arctic conditions like -40C and below in an emergency without a thick winter coat. No you can't. That's going to kill you as sure as drinking bleach.
Also locking overhead bins would be massively expensive requiring a huge amount of work on retrofitting existing aircraft cabins. All with uncertain implications for the evacuation.
Obese, disabled and elderly people also impede evacuations. Are you going to ban them/strap them into special ejector seats?


Hmmm run out into arctic conditions... or stay behind and go up in flames with the aircraft!!

For goodness sake if you are so concerned about arctic conditions keep your bloody coat on until your airborne, and put the bloody thing back on again before landing, then you have no problems! Otherwise get your ass up and get the hell out and stop being a selfish inconsiderate asshole that's putting other innocent people and children at risk so you can rummage for your north face winter coat!!!!

In the cold you huddle together, conserve body warmth, you realize crew are trained in survival for all conditions, desert, arctic, tropical island...


I have a simple solution ban cabin luggage. You seem to be an inconsiderate ass hole that brings everybody in mortal danger because he has to put everything he owns including his kitchen sink as cabin luggage on board an airplane, producing a need for looked overhead bins, so that nobody can collect his coat on the way out of the airplane if people have to evacuate in cold condition. The problem is the cabin luggage not a winter coat ass hole.


I will be personally, SHOVING, PUSHING AND PUNCHING YOU out of the way if your dumb ass was blocking my way during an evacuation trying to get your shit (coat, luggage etc) out of the overhead bin. And I HOPE everyone else behind me remembers to give you a good swift kick in the face as they rushed to the slides.
 
FGITD
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Re: Chaotic Evacuations may Lead to Recertification

Mon Oct 31, 2016 3:35 am

That would be too logical though.

In this thread, the discussion has basically become "what would happen if a flight from Hawaii to the most desolate reaches of Alaska, crashed off field in a blizzard, remaining in 1 piece, whilst being consumed by a fire that evidently produces no heat"

Let's go the other way. The plane crash lands in the desert and is consumed by fire. Would the passengers not be entitled to rifle through the galley in search of water on their way out?
 
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XLA2008
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Re: Chaotic Evacuations may Lead to Recertification

Mon Oct 31, 2016 4:23 am

yak42 wrote:
XLA2008 wrote:
yak42 wrote:
Many people on here seem to think that you can simply run out into arctic conditions like -40C and below in an emergency without a thick winter coat. No you can't. That's going to kill you as sure as drinking bleach.
Also locking overhead bins would be massively expensive requiring a huge amount of work on retrofitting existing aircraft cabins. All with uncertain implications for the evacuation.
Obese, disabled and elderly people also impede evacuations. Are you going to ban them/strap them into special ejector seats?


Hmmm run out into arctic conditions... or stay behind and go up in flames with the aircraft!!

For goodness sake if you are so concerned about arctic conditions keep your bloody coat on until your airborne, and put the bloody thing back on again before landing, then you have no problems! Otherwise get your ass up and get the hell out and stop being a selfish inconsiderate asshole that's putting other innocent people and children at risk so you can rummage for your north face winter coat!!!!

In the cold you huddle together, conserve body warmth, you realize crew are trained in survival for all conditions, desert, arctic, tropical island...

You may as well sit down and wait to choke and be consumed by flames as run out into extreme conditions without appropriate clothing. Hypothermia and death will take a matter of minutes out on an exposed runway in some conditions and well before the passengers can be taken into a warm terminal. I don't think having people wear coats for take off and landing is workable.

You can't control what passengers are going to do in an evacuation. They are in the end responsible for their own actions and will do as they will in that situation. All the airline and regulatory authorities can do is provide as much opportunity and directions to escape the aircraft as is reasonable. No amount of raging at people for taking their hand luggage will stop them.


Just out of interest why would you be onboard an aircraft without being in relatively appropriate cloathing if their is a blizzard and -40 temps outside? I mean either you made your way to the airport in those conditions or you were arriving at an airport knowing the conditions... so if you aren't already dressed appropriately then... your a muppet lol

But like I said... wait until everyone else who cares more about leaving alive than remembering to get there winter coats, sit and wait until they are off so you can then get the things you need!

And if it is a planned emergancy landing we would have already prepared the cabin prior to arrival so you should already be prepared for what your about to face! Otherwise if it happens during take off or landing, pretty quickly in any conditions that emergancy services will be with you, and if not then you make your way to shelter, because it isn't going to be far!
“For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and there you will long to return.“
 
ikramerica
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Re: Chaotic Evacuations may Lead to Recertification

Mon Oct 31, 2016 4:30 am

D L X wrote:
yak42 wrote:
You may as well sit down and wait to choke and be consumed by flames as run out into extreme conditions without appropriate clothing. Hypothermia and death will take a matter of minutes out on an exposed runway in some conditions and well before the passengers can be taken into a warm terminal. I don't think having people wear coats for take off and landing is workable.


A matter of minutes, huh?

There was a Continental DC-10 that crashed on takeoff many years ago. The plane was destroyed. All but 2 passengers survived. The 2 that died were killed instantly when they were INCINERATED going out an exit slide that led into the fire. Minutes are longer than instants.

Freezing to death in the elements. If only there were a fire nearby for warmth. . .

Seriously, "freezing to death" has to be the absolute lamest reason imaginable to not block access to overhead bins in an evac.


Well, the point is, there is an off chance that it might happen: a crash somewhere remote and cold where people can't get there quickly, and all the bins are locked and then the plane burns up.

It seems as likely as people dying from the current situation. We now have quite a few recent evacuations on video where it took more than 90 seconds, some people took luggage, and yet nobody died. Which kind of indicates that the 90 second rule might have been arbitrary in the first place.

And that's true. The 90 second rule is ARBITRARY. They needed a number, and decided that a group of focused, able people in a test environment being able to evacuate in 90 seconds was a good number. This is not the same thing as expecting that in the wild, 90 seconds will always be met. It means that under ideal conditions, 90 seconds should be the maximum.

That the FAA and EASA are mistakenly equating the test to real life is scary. They should know better...
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XLA2008
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Re: Chaotic Evacuations may Lead to Recertification

Mon Oct 31, 2016 4:35 am

ikramerica wrote:
D L X wrote:
yak42 wrote:
You may as well sit down and wait to choke and be consumed by flames as run out into extreme conditions without appropriate clothing. Hypothermia and death will take a matter of minutes out on an exposed runway in some conditions and well before the passengers can be taken into a warm terminal. I don't think having people wear coats for take off and landing is workable.


A matter of minutes, huh?

There was a Continental DC-10 that crashed on takeoff many years ago. The plane was destroyed. All but 2 passengers survived. The 2 that died were killed instantly when they were INCINERATED going out an exit slide that led into the fire. Minutes are longer than instants.

Freezing to death in the elements. If only there were a fire nearby for warmth. . .

Seriously, "freezing to death" has to be the absolute lamest reason imaginable to not block access to overhead bins in an evac.


Well, the point is, there is an off chance that it might happen: a crash somewhere remote and cold where people can't get there quickly, and all the bins are locked and then the plane burns up.

It seems as likely as people dying from the current situation. We now have quite a few recent evacuations on video where it took more than 90 seconds, some people took luggage, and yet nobody died. Which kind of indicates that the 90 second rule might have been arbitrary in the first place.

And that's true. The 90 second rule is ARBITRARY. They needed a number, and decided that a group of focused, able people in a test environment being able to evacuate in 90 seconds was a good number. This is not the same thing as expecting that in the wild, 90 seconds will always be met. It means that under ideal conditions, 90 seconds should be the maximum.

That the FAA and EASA are mistakenly equating the test to real life is scary. They should know better...


Actually I believe the 90 second rule comes after studies, previous aviation crashes, onboard fires that have happened inflight, it's not just a random number plucked out of nowhere! 90 seconds doesn't mean that every situation is going to take 90 seconds, but based on worst case situations and average time it's taken for situations to become out of control they came to 90 seconds!
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mjoelnir
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Re: Chaotic Evacuations may Lead to Recertification

Mon Oct 31, 2016 4:39 am

Could somebody of the proponents of looking overhead bins explain, why it is so all important that you have huge amounts of cabin luggage in the airplane so the need for locking bins is produced?
When I started travelling in air planes you had a coat and perhaps a book or a paper, a small camera, the rest was in the belly. I can understand having things you need in the airplane, your computer, to keep that out of the hold, and your medication, but the rest?
Why run a policy that produces the need for locking bins? Why not just limit what people have in the cabin? Setting up locking bins through out the fleets in the worlds is a huge undertaking, changing what people are aloud in the cabin would be doable in a short time. If it is a safety regulation it hits all airlines the same way. Burning liquids like alcohol should anyway be banned.
 
seat38a
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Re: Chaotic Evacuations may Lead to Recertification

Mon Oct 31, 2016 4:42 am

ikramerica wrote:
D L X wrote:
yak42 wrote:
You may as well sit down and wait to choke and be consumed by flames as run out into extreme conditions without appropriate clothing. Hypothermia and death will take a matter of minutes out on an exposed runway in some conditions and well before the passengers can be taken into a warm terminal. I don't think having people wear coats for take off and landing is workable.


A matter of minutes, huh?

There was a Continental DC-10 that crashed on takeoff many years ago. The plane was destroyed. All but 2 passengers survived. The 2 that died were killed instantly when they were INCINERATED going out an exit slide that led into the fire. Minutes are longer than instants.

Freezing to death in the elements. If only there were a fire nearby for warmth. . .

Seriously, "freezing to death" has to be the absolute lamest reason imaginable to not block access to overhead bins in an evac.


Well, the point is, there is an off chance that it might happen: a crash somewhere remote and cold where people can't get there quickly, and all the bins are locked and then the plane burns up.

It seems as likely as people dying from the current situation. We now have quite a few recent evacuations on video where it took more than 90 seconds, some people took luggage, and yet nobody died. Which kind of indicates that the 90 second rule might have been arbitrary in the first place.

And that's true. The 90 second rule is ARBITRARY. They needed a number, and decided that a group of focused, able people in a test environment being able to evacuate in 90 seconds was a good number. This is not the same thing as expecting that in the wild, 90 seconds will always be met. It means that under ideal conditions, 90 seconds should be the maximum.

That the FAA and EASA are mistakenly equating the test to real life is scary. They should know better...


Air France 358 had no problem evacuating 297 passengers within 90 seconds. This was all done with the two rear doors unused due to fire and another two unusable because 1 slide got punctured and the other one did not inflate. So it is completely doable and not just ARBITRARY number.
 
seat38a
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Re: Chaotic Evacuations may Lead to Recertification

Mon Oct 31, 2016 4:45 am

mjoelnir wrote:
Could somebody of the proponents of looking overhead bins explain, why it is so all important that you have huge amounts of cabin luggage in the airplane so the need for locking bins is produced?
When I started travelling in air planes you had a coat and perhaps a book or a paper, a small camera, the rest was in the belly. I can understand having things you need in the airplane, your computer, to keep that out of the hold, and your medication, but the rest?
Why run a policy that produces the need for locking bins? Why not just limit what people have in the cabin? Setting up locking bins through out the fleets in the worlds is a huge undertaking, changing what people are aloud in the cabin would be doable in a short time. If it is a safety regulation it hits all airlines the same way. Burning liquids like alcohol should anyway be banned.


Where have you been for the last 8 years??? Did you miss the whole checked luggage fee airlines have been charging???
 
rta
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Re: Chaotic Evacuations may Lead to Recertification

Mon Oct 31, 2016 5:46 am

Could someone elaborate on what the 737 grandfather clause is referring to? I tried searching and didn't find any information.
 
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NameOmitted
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Re: Chaotic Evacuations may Lead to Recertification

Mon Oct 31, 2016 5:47 am

yak42 wrote:
You may as well sit down and wait to choke and be consumed by flames as run out into extreme conditions without appropriate clothing. Hypothermia and death will take a matter of minutes out on an exposed runway in some conditions and well before the passengers can be taken into a warm terminal.


With respect, this is factually incorrect. If it's 0 degrees out, with a 40 mph wind, you probably have a good 15 minutes before frostbite sets in, a lot more before hypothermia truly becomes debilitating. If you fell into 40 degree water, hypothermia would be much quicker.

I have no desire to weigh in on evacuation procedures, but with regards to cold weather survival it is important to have a realistic understanding of what can be survived. If someone panics because they assume they will die soon, the will die soon. If you ever face such a situation, please know that it IS survivable. Simply getting out of the wind will give you an hour or so.
 
B777LRF
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Re: Chaotic Evacuations may Lead to Recertification

Mon Oct 31, 2016 5:54 am

mjoelnir wrote:
Do you want to throw me off the plane in a storm and -20°C without my winter coat?


If the alternative is burning you to a crisp then, yes, I expect you to hurry outside and be cold for a little while. I'm sure you'll survive and, frankly, your comfort is inconsequential when life is at stake.
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YIMBY
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Re: Chaotic Evacuations may Lead to Recertification

Mon Oct 31, 2016 6:09 am

1) I have several times arrived at remote airports with quite arctic conditions, down to -30 C and windy, no violent blizzard though, as there would be no landing on such conditions. I will advice, that if you are going to land there, scheduled and normally, you put warm clothes on from the start, and before landing have your winter coat on or ready, and definitely shoes/boots on, as with a good probability you have to walk outdoors to the bus or to the gate and it may be difficult to dress when everybody around you is getting their suitcases and getting out as soon as possible. And that was in a normal landing.

If you are announced an emergency or forced landing south from the north pole, you may have a couple of minutes before the landing to put all your clothes on. You will need them.

IN AN EMERGENCY EVACUATION, DO NOT TAKE ANYTHING THAT YOU DO NOT WEAR ALREADY.

If the plane does not burn completely you may have a chance to return to the plane to get your suitcase. If it does .. be happy to be out of it.

2) The amount of cabin luggage should be restricted in any case. Even in a normal flight it takes a lot of time when people put and get their properties in/from the overhead bins, go back and forth searching for a free space or their lost luggage, and the last ones in the plane will be forced to put their bags in their feet which may be lethal for flights over 20 mins. The excessive cabin baggage may have other safety issues like falling down on your head. Hence only one small and light soft bag per person should be allowed for the overhead bin, and definitely no hard suitcases, trolleys, tax-free bottles etc. Nothing with wheels (except for special needs) should be allowed to cabin. Wheels even bring dirt to others' jackets. Maybe one piece of checked luggage should be made mandatory to be included for even the lowest price.
 
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N14AZ
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Re: Chaotic Evacuations may Lead to Recertification

Mon Oct 31, 2016 6:47 am

FAs are usually checking the overhead bins before TO to make sure they are properly closed. A simple solution - without adding too much weight- would be to install locks and to lock all overhead bins during the above mentioned check... and to open them again after the seatbelt sign goes off. Useless to say this will increase the workload of the FAs. And of course the safety videos / demonstration would have to be amended by saying "all overhead bins will be locked during TO.... "
 
Brewfangrb
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Re: Chaotic Evacuations may Lead to Recertification

Mon Oct 31, 2016 7:34 am

rbavfan wrote:
[

So how about this folks. If you take your carry on when evacuating its a $10000.00 fine that goes to fund emergency services. This being announced during the emergency notifications, that most all ignore the crew doing before take off. No claiming I did not hear it so I should not pay the fine. But if you have a carry on and someone died in the crash, you get charged with Involuntary manslaughter. After all thats what you have done!


Yup. I'm fully on-board with this. I do *NOT* care about people's whining about "human nature" and "OMG, it's 32F, I'm gonna die!". Yeah, well, if I'm prevented from evacuating because you need your puffy coat, I'm probably going to *actually* die on the f-ing aircraft. If rescue is so far away that you're at risk of dying in 32F weather, then you're probably screwed no matter what.

As I've said before: If you stop for ANY REASON unrelated to the actual evacuation of the aircraft, I will stop at nothing to remove you from my way. Your life does not come before mine and I will use any means of physical force necessary to evacuation. Leave your stuff and get off the plane. Period.

Additionally, even if laws aren't passed to correct people's stupidity, I will ensure you are sued back to the stone age for any injury I incur as a result of your reckless, selfish behavior.
 
Brewfangrb
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Re: Chaotic Evacuations may Lead to Recertification

Mon Oct 31, 2016 7:40 am

N415XJ wrote:
That might be a concern, but if there's a placard that says the bin is locked, and if passengers know that the bins will locked, I can't see why they'd try to pry them open anyway.


You can't possibly be serious with this. Are you new to the planet? Just rejoining society? People. Are. Stupid.
 
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seahawk
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Re: Chaotic Evacuations may Lead to Recertification

Mon Oct 31, 2016 7:46 am

Imho the problem is a consequence of allowing even bigger and heavier hand luggage and charging extra for luggage in the hold. Imho the sensible thing is to reduce the allowed size of hand luggage to a small bag and to less than 5kg with one piece of luggage in the hold being free for all passengers. You could charge for having oversized or delicate hand luggage that would be stored in locked bins by the FAs before take-off, so that you can transport electronics, cameras and such stuff.
 
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garpd
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Re: Chaotic Evacuations may Lead to Recertification

Mon Oct 31, 2016 7:57 am

Jeez, a bunch a crybabies on this thread!
I can't believe some of you would actually go for your coat or bag in an emergency and are complaining that locking the overhead would make that harder for you. What's wrong with you?!
In an emergency like fire, it is far better to be outside, huddled together with other passengers than inside burning to death.

I get that you want to keep your identity on you... do your trousers not have pockets? As for needing your mobile... I'm pretty sure that under the circumstances, the authorities would give you access to a land line, but also.. again... pockets on the trousers? When I travel my passport stays firmly entrenched in my trouser pocket and only comes out when I need to produce it or I reach home or my destination. No need for a jacket with pockets. What a lame excuse.

I support the idea of locking the bins for take off and landing. They can be locked when the seatbelt sign goes on by any one of the FAs so a quick check can be made that all bins are closed before locking them. I see no safety issues what so ever with this proposal. It would seem to be a good solution.

Also, make any passenger who has got out in an evacuation with their bag pay a hefty fine or be disqualified from compensation. They have endangered lives with their ignorance or arrogance, probably both. Put that on the conditions of carriage. Simple.

I'd also go further and call for a flight deck controlled seat belt locking system! It annoys me the amount of clicks you hear as the plane is still taxiing, even while the FA is telling you to stay seated and strapped in! OK, that's going a little far... it is more of a personal musing than a serious suggestion.
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garpd
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Re: Chaotic Evacuations may Lead to Recertification

Mon Oct 31, 2016 8:16 am

Brewfangrb wrote:
[
As I've said before: If you stop for ANY REASON unrelated to the actual evacuation of the aircraft, I will stop at nothing to remove you from my way. Your life does not come before mine and I will use any means of physical force necessary to evacuation. Leave your stuff and get off the plane. Period.


Agreed, I have often said, in an evacuation such as a burning plane or one that threatens to go up in flame, anyone that stops me from getting to an exit will get a swift punch or kick to remind them to get moving. The same can be said for those ignorant PAX that are sitting on an exit row and pay no attention to the notices on how to operate them. If they stop me getting out because they're busy figuring it out or asking for instructions, I will drag them forcibly out of the dame way and possible given them a swift kick for their troubles. I cannot abide selfishness, especially when it could lead to others paying a high price for it. Your bag or your lack of attention is NOT worth a single persons life or health.

I suggest that airlines offer a training course for willing participants to learn how to operate doors and emergency exits. This will give them a qualification on the airline and alliance databases. Only with this qualification are you allowed an exit seat. Some might say this is drastic. But I say flying is a privilege, not a right and why should you have to risk death because some ignoramus is sitting in the seat beside your nearest exit?
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SwissCanuck
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Re: Chaotic Evacuations may Lead to Recertification

Mon Oct 31, 2016 9:41 am

mjoelnir wrote:

Because people have died from exposure in connection with evacuations. People here seem never to have been outside in a blizzard or just only in really bad weather, were you can die a few meters from a building. The time frame in a storm and rain around 0°C can be as short as 2 to 5 minutes for children to die of exposure.

If there are problems with cabin luggage, ban it in the cabin. Allow small bags for the electronic equipment. There is no reason for the Americans to have everything and the kitchen sink in the cabin when travelling on an airplane and than talking about to lock away my warm clothing in an emergency. About as crazy a logic as I have encountered.
.


Could you please back up your point with source material? Please list evacuations on airport property or adjacent where people died from exposure.
 
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arvo
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Re: Chaotic Evacuations may Lead to Recertification

Mon Oct 31, 2016 10:05 am

Well thankfully I haven't had to evacuate an aircraft but I have had to evacuate a building with a fire (thankfully very small) and alarms going off. We had to evacuate the building in the middle of the winter the temp outside was around -15C to -20C (5F to -4F) we evacuated with just the clothes we where wearing (t-shirts and jeans) and stood outside in the freezing conditions (snow on the ground) for around 15 min before moving into another school near by. During this time outside not one person froze to death or got hypothermia. As people got colder everyone just grouped together to stay warm.
While evacuating the building no one stopped to get jackets ect just got out of the building as quick as possible.
Also just to follow up there was this crash in Halifax where people had to evacuate the plane in to freezing temps and in a blizzard where no one died due to the temps.
http://avherald.com/h?article=483e7337&opt=0

So I don't understand why people don't just get out as quick as possible with out grabbing all of their crap from the overhead bins. All material possessions can be easily replace unlike someone's life.

I'm all for locking overhead bins during take off and landing. you should be in your seat at that time anyway and in an emergency you should have everything you need on you.

Brett
 
JeremyB
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Re: Chaotic Evacuations may Lead to Recertification

Mon Oct 31, 2016 10:22 am

XLA2008 wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
I find this idea of locking the overhead bins pretty strange. If it would be luggage storage only, but I usually store my winter coat there during the flight. Do you want to throw me off the plane in a storm and -20°C without my winter coat?


Unless you want to be responsible for the death of other people because you were blocking the aisle preventing others from passing and getting out of the cabin so you can have your winter coat! Suck it up, a winter coat or your life?? At any given major airport you will not be on the tarmac for long before emergancy services assist! No excuse! Or perhaps you should put your winter coat on during take off and landing! That way you have it to hand! No excuse for you to prevent or stall an evacuation!


I keep my coat/sweater on my seat when I'm flying, no need to get up and block the aisle. And Mjoelnir, if you would find yourself in a situation like that while the plane is burning and people want to get out they will push you to the side or potentially even push you over. Being stamped to death in the aisle of a burning or just evacuate as soon as possible.. I know which option I would take.

Someone mentioned the EK accident in Dubai, a lot of the people on board stood up and got their bags with them. The evacuation of that particular flight took way longer then 90 seconds. A firefighter died due to those people taking way to long to get off the damn plane.
 
Newbiepilot
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Re: Chaotic Evacuations may Lead to Recertification

Mon Oct 31, 2016 10:49 am

N14AZ wrote:
FAs are usually checking the overhead bins before TO to make sure they are properly closed. A simple solution - without adding too much weight- would be to install locks and to lock all overhead bins during the above mentioned check... and to open them again after the seatbelt sign goes off. Useless to say this will increase the workload of the FAs. And of course the safety videos / demonstration would have to be amended by saying "all overhead bins will be locked during TO.... "


Your idea would require unlocking them after arriving at the gate. Flight attendants (depending on local regulations) cannot stand up until the plane is at the gate. Now you have a flight attendant shuffling through the aisle as people stand up and get ready to leave the plane. You just added 3-5 minutes to a turnaround time. That would not be accepted by many airlines.
 
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ikolkyo
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Re: Chaotic Evacuations may Lead to Recertification

Mon Oct 31, 2016 12:38 pm

Newbiepilot wrote:
N14AZ wrote:
FAs are usually checking the overhead bins before TO to make sure they are properly closed. A simple solution - without adding too much weight- would be to install locks and to lock all overhead bins during the above mentioned check... and to open them again after the seatbelt sign goes off. Useless to say this will increase the workload of the FAs. And of course the safety videos / demonstration would have to be amended by saying "all overhead bins will be locked during TO.... "


Your idea would require unlocking them after arriving at the gate. Flight attendants (depending on local regulations) cannot stand up until the plane is at the gate. Now you have a flight attendant shuffling through the aisle as people stand up and get ready to leave the plane. You just added 3-5 minutes to a turnaround time. That would not be accepted by many airlines.


FAs are positioned through out the cabin, for example sky interior controls for the 737 are at door 1L and a FA sits right by the door.
 
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klm617
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Re: Chaotic Evacuations may Lead to Recertification

Mon Oct 31, 2016 1:01 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
I find this idea of locking the overhead bins pretty strange. If it would be luggage storage only, but I usually store my winter coat there during the flight. Do you want to throw me off the plane in a storm and -20°C without my winter coat?



Would you rather be cold or die or contribute to the death of another because you needed to grab your coat.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
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Rajahdhani
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Re: Chaotic Evacuations may Lead to Recertification

Mon Oct 31, 2016 1:12 pm

rbavfan wrote:
UALFAson wrote:
TW870 wrote:
One reason I think people panic about their bags is because they are afraid of losing their passports and visas on international flights.


But it's also work and personal laptops, iPads, wallets, car keys, cell phones, business information...The average work briefcase or small carry on contains an incredible number of items that would be difficult to replace, and certainly in a timely manner.

I think part of it is also human nature. When do you ever leave a place, particularly a place of public transportation like an airplane, taxi, or bus, and leave all of your personal items behind you? Never. So in the chaos of an emergency, people resort to routine. And in that routine, the first thing you do is gather your carry on items and move toward an exit. As the son of a flight attendant who knows the rules and the reasons behind them, I can easily see myself abandoning my suitcase in the overhead bin in an evacuation--underwear and dress shirts can be easily replaced. But, rightly or wrongly, I bet I'd grab my briefcase from underneath the seat in front of me before heading to the door.



Sorry but as a burn victim I can tell you. NOTHING in your carry on is more important that not burning to death. In terms of important files for work. I keep a USB fob on my keychain (now 64GB) with all my critcal data backed up to it. Already in pocket set to go. Passport, cell and wallet in pocket. If it's a blizzard Emergency crews will get to you before you freeze to death at an airport. We all need to quit being winey babies that have to have everything set for comfort. In an emergency I don't give a damn in I'm to cold or too hot due to weather. I give a damn that I did not KILL someone by trapping them on the plane because I was so self important that I had to get my F'n carry on! Having dealt with survivors remorse I can tell you replacing that bag is better than years of hating yourself. Think about knowing a child or adult burnt to death because I grabbed this thing I could replace.

So how about this folks. If you take your carry on when evacuating its a $10000.00 fine that goes to fund emergency services. This being announced during the emergency notifications, that most all ignore the crew doing before take off. No claiming I did not hear it so I should not pay the fine. But if you have a carry on and someone died in the crash, you get charged with Involuntary manslaughter. After all thats what you have done!


I am sorry to hear about your burn incident.

I am also in complete agreement with you, and sadly ignorance is blissful for those that have not had to survive (or even been trained to survive) such an incident. My first concern, is almost the most univerally overlooked; oxygen and respiration. Imagine for a moment; passengers have been prepared for the emergency landing, and have been using the oxygen masks. Psychologically, not having a panic attack is not a super attainable goal, but those that do not - upon landing, will go from that; controlled oxygen supply - to none - in an attempt to evacuate (and in the event of an un-contained fire), through a oxygen poor environment, and likely in need of it now as they will be literally fighting to get out. In those scenarios, every nano-second, every decision, every choice counts. People, confused, or nervous - are going to try to 'save the IPad', 'pass out' in the aisle, and then a flight attendant (and/or fire rescue) is going to have to save them. The IPad, will likely survive the patient(s).

The public has taken the levels of security offered, for granted. It's horrifying to think that something as nightmarish as AC 797 happened, and that was pre the 'Insta-famous' mentality.

Specifically referring to the issue of jackets/coats - there is another issue. If evacuating into water, the coats become a deathtrap. If you put it over the lifevest, it will weight it down, and also hide the bright color needed to be seen by rescue personnel. It also, regardless of who is wearing it, becomes waterlogged, and not only weighs down the user, but also limits their range of motion - in water.

And so - I believe that it needs to now be part of the public consciousness. Add a section to the safety briefings/safety videos. Have the airlines do reminders on board (on the inside of the overhead bins/overhead bin covers), and then make a small space on the life vest (or, an attachable pouch) for passport, form of I.D., cellphone - something the size of a wallet, or a small clutch purse. AA used to make UMs wear a 'UM' pouch - same concept.

Cabin Crew should be empowered to be more assertive on the front as these issues ultimately affect their ability to operate, and often, their ultimate responsibility - passenger safety.
 
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garpd
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Re: Chaotic Evacuations may Lead to Recertification

Mon Oct 31, 2016 1:22 pm

Newbiepilot wrote:
Your idea would require unlocking them after arriving at the gate. Flight attendants (depending on local regulations) cannot stand up until the plane is at the gate. Now you have a flight attendant shuffling through the aisle as people stand up and get ready to leave the plane. You just added 3-5 minutes to a turnaround time. That would not be accepted by many airlines.


Oh em gee :roll: :roll: :roll:
So.... do you see flight attendants on your flights manually dimming each light in the cabin? :?
Oh no wait... they have a central control! :roll:

It's the 21 Century! Cars have central locking. The bins could have too. Simple. One switch at each FA station or several to control which cabin has it's bin unlocked first, if you so wish.

Jeez, does no one think any more Or are they all too busy getting butt hurt when someone proposes a good idea?
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Rajahdhani
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Re: Chaotic Evacuations may Lead to Recertification

Mon Oct 31, 2016 1:32 pm

seahawk wrote:
Imho the problem is a consequence of allowing even bigger and heavier hand luggage and charging extra for luggage in the hold. Imho the sensible thing is to reduce the allowed size of hand luggage to a small bag and to less than 5kg with one piece of luggage in the hold being free for all passengers. You could charge for having oversized or delicate hand luggage that would be stored in locked bins by the FAs before take-off, so that you can transport electronics, cameras and such stuff.


So, here's an idea - most passengers overpack their 'carry-on's in order to not have to pay for checked baggage. From a perspective of cost - it does not matter where that bag is, it is still being transported on the aircraft. So, why not expand gate-check (or allow passengers to check their 'carry-on' for free), and allow passengers the right to carry only one 5 kg bag. Hell, limit it to the size of a briefcase, a mid-sized purse, or as big as the biggest Ipad (or non-exploding Samsung device). The vast majority of passengers now do not access their overhead contents at all, however they do use what is in their bags (located at their feet/on their seat). The overhead bins would remain, and for those with medical exceptions (needing to carry medical equipment/medicine), and special needs (baby bags) and could be extended to special equipment (such as expensive cameras, or specialized equipment), and/or offer more space for the situations where you just have to push the plane - and not have the time to then have to ask people to 'volunteer' space and gate check at the most time sensitive moment.

I've noticed it being done pro-actively at B6, especially on the E190s. At FLL, there are often times an agent waiting at the end of the jet-bridge, coordinating with the flight attendants. Knowing the loads, and verifying with the flight attendants, they proactively attempt to evenly chose from everyone, but towards the end of boarding, it becomes much more necessary. Often, I volunteer my bag - and they are often fantastic about it. It saves everyone time, and space. The bag will still arrive at the destination (often, before I do, waiting at the jet-bridge...) on the same aircraft - except now, less hassle for me, for the airline, and more room onboard.
 
WIederling
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Re: Chaotic Evacuations may Lead to Recertification

Mon Oct 31, 2016 1:37 pm

tullamarine wrote:
Aircraft are certified for full evacuation in 90 seconds with only 50% of exits available. This has always been a bit dubious given the evacuation trials are with trained manufacturer personnel who know what to do and are mobile.


You do not use trained for the task personnel. ( Airbus collects their set of SimuPax from various sources. )
and it is _not_ dubious at all as the permissible environment is part of the certification requirement.
.. and afaics nobody expects a real evacuation to always match that time.

In reality, passengers come in all shapes and sizes and vary from very young to infirm.

You can only test with people that are not infirm and able to consent.

Hmm.
if you lock overhead bins the imbeciles will sit with their lootbox in lap all the time.
Murphy is an optimist
 
FGITD
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Re: Chaotic Evacuations may Lead to Recertification

Mon Oct 31, 2016 1:56 pm

garpd wrote:
Newbiepilot wrote:
Your idea would require unlocking them after arriving at the gate. Flight attendants (depending on local regulations) cannot stand up until the plane is at the gate. Now you have a flight attendant shuffling through the aisle as people stand up and get ready to leave the plane. You just added 3-5 minutes to a turnaround time. That would not be accepted by many airlines.


Oh em gee :roll: :roll: :roll:
So.... do you see flight attendants on your flights manually dimming each light in the cabin? :?
Oh no wait... they have a central control! :roll:

It's the 21 Century! Cars have central locking. The bins could have too. Simple. One switch at each FA station or several to control which cabin has it's bin unlocked first, if you so wish.

Jeez, does no one think any more Or are they all too busy getting butt hurt when someone proposes a good idea?



What if the system breaks? People standing around, waiting while the mechanic troubleshoots.

I think it's a good idea that definitely has it's merits, but it's true that it would affect turnaround times. Every aspect of a minimum turn is taken into account, and adding any additional steps adds time, possibly leading to delays. And depending on aircraft rotation, it can impact certain routes for much longer than most would think
 
NickLAX
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Re: Chaotic Evacuations may Lead to Recertification

Mon Oct 31, 2016 2:03 pm

What about carriers fund $10K immediate on loss of luggage if cabin/cargo area is caught in a fire. I always on take off and landings have my passport, wallet, cell phone, coat on or next to me if winter. I don't give a crap about anything left on board, all replaceable - my work device is encrypted. BTW: I'm normally bulkhead or near an exit - I'M not going to be the one holding up people for a bag. I'm gone - I'll help those who need it to get off quick and help the crew as needed but sorry not helping anyone trying to get bags.

Maybe a more simple fine of $2500 USD if you leave with bags... I think carriers doing a flat rate $10K would stop some of these - especially if you reflect a fine for leaving with luggage.

Those complaining about their "stuff" - to heck with you. If STAIRS come up to the aircraft to take you off in an incident, then yes, take your bag that's my way of looking at it. If slides are used, you cannot even consider grabbing your bag. If you can get away with a small backpack on your front (not on your back) and its right where your feet are - that's one thing, but having to open a bin or carry something that might damage the slide or cause you to come down the slide incorrectly is nuts
 
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garpd
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Re: Chaotic Evacuations may Lead to Recertification

Mon Oct 31, 2016 2:10 pm

FGITD wrote:
What if the system breaks? People standing around, waiting while the mechanic troubleshoots.

I think it's a good idea that definitely has it's merits, but it's true that it would affect turnaround times. Every aspect of a minimum turn is taken into account, and adding any additional steps adds time, possibly leading to delays. And depending on aircraft rotation, it can impact certain routes for much longer than most would think


In the very small chance it breaks, it breaks.
There could also be a built in manual override in those situations. A key that can unlock the bin, for example.

Seriously though, planes and their mechanical or electrical systems on them break all the time. You don't hear people complaining and suggesting we just don't bother, do you? :roll:
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FGITD
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Re: Chaotic Evacuations may Lead to Recertification

Mon Oct 31, 2016 2:15 pm

garpd wrote:
FGITD wrote:
What if the system breaks? People standing around, waiting while the mechanic troubleshoots.

I think it's a good idea that definitely has it's merits, but it's true that it would affect turnaround times. Every aspect of a minimum turn is taken into account, and adding any additional steps adds time, possibly leading to delays. And depending on aircraft rotation, it can impact certain routes for much longer than most would think


In the very small chance it breaks, it breaks.
Planes and the mechanicals or systems on them break all the time. You don't hear people complaining and suggesting we just don't bother, do you? :roll:



Of course, almost every plane I've seen come in has something broken to some degree.

The difference is that this system would stop everything dead in its tracks. No disembarkation, nothing. I'd also bet that if you told passengers they can't leave because the overhead bins are broken locked, you'd get some amateur mechanics doing more damage than good for the sake of getting their stuff.
 
D L X
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Re: Chaotic Evacuations may Lead to Recertification

Mon Oct 31, 2016 2:21 pm

FGITD wrote:
What if the system breaks? People standing around, waiting while the mechanic troubleshoots.



How often have the locks on your car malfunctioned and kept you out of your car?

We're really scraping the barrel to come up with ridiculous what-ifs here.


FGITD wrote:
I think it's a good idea that definitely has it's merits, but it's true that it would affect turnaround times.


No it wouldn't.

FGITD wrote:
The difference is that this system would stop everything dead in its tracks. No disembarkation, nothing. I'd also bet that if you told passengers they can't leave because the overhead bins are broken locked, you'd get some amateur mechanics doing more damage than good for the sake of getting their stuff.

It's MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH more likely that a cabin door would fail than a lock on an overhead bin, and yet you're focusing on an overhead bin.

It's MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH more likely that a cabin door would fail than a lock on an overhead bin, and yet you're focusing on an overhead bin.

It's MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH more likely that a jetway would fail than a lock on an overhead bin, and yet you're focusing on an overhead bin.

It's MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH more likely that a seat belt would fail than a lock on an overhead bin, and yet you're focusing on an overhead bin.

Hell, it's already possible that an overhead bin latch can fail right now. Let's get rid of overhead bin latches! They might fail!


We should get rid of anything that might fail, because people will get more mad that they fail than they would be convenienced when they work as designed.
 
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hOMSaR
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Re: Chaotic Evacuations may Lead to Recertification

Mon Oct 31, 2016 2:27 pm

NickLAX wrote:
What about carriers fund $10K immediate on loss of luggage if cabin/cargo area is caught in a fire. I always on take off and landings have my passport, wallet, cell phone, coat on or next to me if winter. I don't give a crap about anything left on board, all replaceable - my work device is encrypted. BTW: I'm normally bulkhead or near an exit - I'M not going to be the one holding up people for a bag. I'm gone - I'll help those who need it to get off quick and help the crew as needed but sorry not helping anyone trying to get bags.

Maybe a more simple fine of $2500 USD if you leave with bags... I think carriers doing a flat rate $10K would stop some of these - especially if you reflect a fine for leaving with luggage.


I can almost guarantee you that in an emergency evacuation, nobody is going to be thinking about $10,000 luggage-loss compensation, if they even know about it. Same with the fine for taking bags.

People can dismiss human nature all the want, but it's a very hard thing to predict / change, especially when dealing with a situation that comes without warning and is something most people, even those fully trained for it, will never experience.

Ever been in an office building or other public building where the fire alarm goes off unexpectedly? The number of people who stand around looking at each other confused, then maybe grab their stuff and leisurely walk toward the exits is astonishing. And this despite having fire drills every few months in school (at least, I did) for most of their educational years.

There's a fine line between "this isn't real/serious" and "OMGPANICWE'REALLGOINGTODIE," and unfortunately that line is different for each person. No legislation / fine / predetermined compensation offer is going to change that.
I was raised by a cup of coffee.
 
D L X
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Re: Chaotic Evacuations may Lead to Recertification

Mon Oct 31, 2016 2:30 pm

hOMSaR wrote:
People can dismiss human nature all the want, but it's a very hard thing to predict / change...


* * *



Ever been in an office building or other public building where the fire alarm goes off unexpectedly? The number of people who stand around looking at each other confused, then maybe grab their stuff and leisurely walk toward the exits is astonishing.


Sir, I believe you just (correctly) predicted human nature. Yes, it is possible.
 
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garpd
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Re: Chaotic Evacuations may Lead to Recertification

Mon Oct 31, 2016 2:30 pm

FGITD wrote:
Of course, almost every plane I've seen come in has something broken to some degree.

The difference is that this system would stop everything dead in its tracks. No disembarkation, nothing. I'd also bet that if you told passengers they can't leave because the overhead bins are broken locked, you'd get some amateur mechanics doing more damage than good for the sake of getting their stuff.


How would it hold up the disembarkation by more than the 2 or 3 minutes it would take for the FA's to manually unlock each bin or row?
Locking mechanisms are pretty much a mature technology. We are able to engineer them to fail in open or closed, depending on the main use of said mechanism.

I really don't see why this would be an issue.
Last edited by garpd on Mon Oct 31, 2016 2:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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FGITD
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Re: Chaotic Evacuations may Lead to Recertification

Mon Oct 31, 2016 2:30 pm

Thank you for really pushing your thoughts via repetition. It enabled me to glimpse the level of knowledge and maturity that I was attempting to deal with, and make an informed decision to not pursue this any further.

Threads like this, and indeed members like this, are why industry experts have widely deserted this site.
 
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fallap
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Re: Chaotic Evacuations may Lead to Recertification

Mon Oct 31, 2016 2:39 pm

For those trying to grab your precious items while I've got flames in my arse, you better get a move on or you'll end up under my leather jackboots <3 It's nothing personal, but I'd rather murder you than die in such an instance. <3 xo xo

The rest of the passengers would all receive a big hug and kiss after we were out.
Ex grease monkey buried head to toe inside an F-16M
Now studying Political Science
 
D L X
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Re: Chaotic Evacuations may Lead to Recertification

Mon Oct 31, 2016 2:45 pm

FGITD wrote:
Thank you for really pushing your thoughts via repetition. It enabled me to glimpse the level of knowledge and maturity that I was attempting to deal with, and make an informed decision to not pursue this any further.

Threads like this, and indeed members like this, are why industry experts have widely deserted this site.


I assume you are referring to me. That's fine. Your post, and your insistence that it was an actual real issue to debate pushed my buttons. But sorry, "the locks might fail closed" is simply not a proximate enough reason to discount the suggestion. If you believe otherwise, as in, if you believe that the chance that a lock would be likely to fail is significant, please explain why.

This thread is full of "what-ifs" that are extremely remote possibilities. That's just not how engineering works. We don't decide not to build something because there's a chance it might not fail. We design around the failure possibilities.
 
Gatorman96
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Re: Chaotic Evacuations may Lead to Recertification

Mon Oct 31, 2016 2:47 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
I find this idea of locking the overhead bins pretty strange. If it would be luggage storage only, but I usually store my winter coat there during the flight. Do you want to throw me off the plane in a storm and -20°C without my winter coat?

I just...I mean...REALLY? You are the target audience for the locking mechanism. SMH
Last edited by Gatorman96 on Mon Oct 31, 2016 3:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
caverunner17
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Re: Chaotic Evacuations may Lead to Recertification

Mon Oct 31, 2016 3:01 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
If there are problems with cabin luggage, ban it in the cabin. Allow small bags for the electronic equipment. There is no reason for the Americans to have everything and the kitchen sink in the cabin when travelling on an airplane and than talking about to lock away my warm clothing in an emergency. About as crazy a logic as I have encountered.
.

Then bring back free checked baggage. If my options are to fit "the kitchen sink" into my carry on for free or pay an extra $60 round trip to check a bag, you know full well what most people are going to do.

This whole argument is rather pointless right now. How many deaths have been attributed to someone retrieving their carry-on during evacuation? As far as I know, the number is zero, or close to zero.

As for fining people? Really? Good luck when on a number of flights (especially international) people might not speak English. Not to mention, how do you enforce it? Those fines would never hold up in court.
 
DfwRevolution
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Re: Chaotic Evacuations may Lead to Recertification

Mon Oct 31, 2016 3:05 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
Because people have died from exposure in connection with evacuations. People here seem never to have been outside in a blizzard or just only in really bad weather, were you can die a few meters from a building. The time frame in a storm and rain around 0°C can be as short as 2 to 5 minutes for children to die of exposure.


Please cite instances of a passenger dying from exposure after a commanded evacuation.

No kid is dying from 0 °C (32 °F) rain exposure in 5 minutes. Every child who has ever lived in a cold weather climate has run outside to play without proper winter clothing. They didn't drop dead in 5 minutes.

Your whole argument is preposterous. Your survival time on a burning airplane is measured in seconds. Your survival time in the cold is measured in minutes to hours. It's a no brainer to get off the airplane with zero delay. You are arguing that we should make the vast majority of evacuations more dangerous to improve comfort during a few rare situations.
I have a three post per topic limit. You're welcome to have the last word.
 
D L X
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Re: Chaotic Evacuations may Lead to Recertification

Mon Oct 31, 2016 3:06 pm

I don't think the problem is related to how much people put in the overhead bins at all. The result is the same: if you're reaching into the overheads during an evacuation to get your jacket or to get your kitchen sink, either way, you are slowing the evacuation, and either way, you are imperiling those behind you.

The expense of checked baggage is a red herring. (Besides, even when it was free, people still preferred bringing rollaboards.)

DfwRevolution wrote:
Your survival time on a burning airplane is measured in seconds. Your survival time in the cold is measured in minutes to hours. It's a no brainer to get off the airplane with zero delay. You are arguing that we should make the vast majority of evacuations more dangerous to improve comfort during a few rare situations.

Could not have been said any better.
 
airbazar
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Re: Chaotic Evacuations may Lead to Recertification

Mon Oct 31, 2016 3:16 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
I find this idea of locking the overhead bins pretty strange. If it would be luggage storage only, but I usually store my winter coat there during the flight. Do you want to throw me off the plane in a storm and -20°C without my winter coat?

Yes! It's up to the rescue team to make sure you don't die of exposure after an evacuation.
TW870 wrote:
One thing I have been thinking about is an announcement (or part of the safety demo) to keep your passport on your person during takeoff and landing. One reason I think people panic about their bags is because they are afraid of losing their passports and visas on international flights. After these last few incidents I am going to start changing the way I do things and just sticking my passport in my jacket pocket for takeoff and landing.

I keep all my valuables (wallet, passport, phone), either in the seat pocket in front of me or at my feet. Always have. Mostly because i like window seats and if i want to buy a drink on board or fill a customs/immigration form i don't want to be climbing over the people sitting next to me to get to my carry-on.
 
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Moose135
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Re: Chaotic Evacuations may Lead to Recertification

Mon Oct 31, 2016 3:26 pm

hOMSaR wrote:
People can dismiss human nature all the want, but it's a very hard thing to predict / change, especially when dealing with a situation that comes without warning and is something most people, even those fully trained for it, will never experience.

I think half the people claiming they will punch, kick, trample, etc. those getting bags during an evacuation will be panicking themselves if it really hits the fan, and cause problems in their own right.
KC-135 - Passing gas and taking names!
 
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garpd
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Re: Chaotic Evacuations may Lead to Recertification

Mon Oct 31, 2016 3:35 pm

Moose135 wrote:
I think half the people claiming they will punch, kick, trample, etc. those getting bags during an evacuation will be panicking themselves if it really hits the fan, and cause problems in their own right.


I'm one of them. Seriously. They will be quickly rendered no longer an obstacle in whatever way is quickest. Could be shoving them in an empty seat, could be using them as a carpet. The people behind me will be thankful for it.
Last edited by garpd on Mon Oct 31, 2016 3:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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ozark1
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Re: Chaotic Evacuations may Lead to Recertification

Mon Oct 31, 2016 3:36 pm

ltbewr wrote:
Perhaps evacuation drill trials should be done considering the modern reality of humans who want to take their overhead baggage. Do a number of tests with 100% of seats occupied, that 70%+ in a semi-random pattern get their overhead baggage, video and sound recordings inside and outside the a/c, do them in locations in different weather conditions including very cold weather and only only half of exits available. Also include where testers are persons of size, have babies, small children, elderly persons, physically handicapped persons and their special needs may mean getting stuff stored overhead and smaller carry-ons, maybe throw in someone with a valuable musical instrument. Do a number of studies applying potential changes as suggested above by others and then consider applications.

You also need to factor in those who have stopped in the middle of it to take their photos, while people behind them are trying to get out. Plus those who are walking down the aisle while texting. In other words, factor in something like this for the amount of time needed. They don't take it seriously and all of these new safety videos, led by young flight attendants who are rapping, or dancing or showing off the latest uniform fashion while doing an oxygen demo, have contributed to that. The pax have just been "entertained" on taxi out...explosion...now what? Yeah, I know studies have shown that more people pay attention, but IMHO, it's for all the wrong reasons.
 
UAL777UK
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Re: Chaotic Evacuations may Lead to Recertification

Mon Oct 31, 2016 3:52 pm

I am absolutely staggered by people who think its acceptable to grab your bag, coat etc whilst the aircraft is on fire, hindering the evacuation process. Having met passengers and flight crew involved in the 1985 British Airtours fire at Manchester and hearing their stories, I can tell you right now, if you are ever in front of me and I need to get out of a plane in an emergency I will come through you like a pin ball. No excuses for your arrogance. All your sundry items can be replaced....We cannot!
 
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SamYeager2016
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Re: Chaotic Evacuations may Lead to Recertification

Mon Oct 31, 2016 4:41 pm

Whilst I hope that I would follow procedure if this happened I really can't guarantee what I would do in reality and I strongly suspect this is the case for the majority of us. I do think that test evacuations should reflect current real life and include some people getting their hand luggage.

As to why some people grab their luggage I think ,to some extent, the airline industry may be responsible with all the diktats that electronic equipment must be carried in hand luggage. Equally the fear that expensive stuff in suitcases may be stolen is also a factor. In cases where the aircraft was substantially or wholly intact I seem to recall reading vociferous complaints about the amount of time before luggage was returned to passengers.

Although this doesn't absolve passengers of their responsibility to evacuate swiftly both for their safety and others behind them I think the only way we're likely to see a change in habits is if some or all of the issues are addressed. In terms of the three options given by the OP I fully expect none of them to happen. IMO the most likely option is an increased focus on the subject of hand luggage in the safety briefing.
 
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XLA2008
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Re: Chaotic Evacuations may Lead to Recertification

Mon Oct 31, 2016 5:21 pm

Some aircraft already have lockable overhead bins, several 737's I have worked on over the years were fitted with these, we used that space to store crew cabin baggage and lock it in, it wasnt electronic we had a key for it, but... still that concept already exists!
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