OO-VEG
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AF will launch new long haul carrier

Thu Nov 03, 2016 9:50 am

Just officially announced AF will launch a new Long Haul carrier to cope with the competitions from the ME3. Target is to service 10 routes from Paris. It is specifically stated the new airline will have a comparable service to that of Air France, and pilots will not be forced to move to the new airline.

Curious how that is going to work out, but quite expected. I am a bit surprised they are not going for the Transavia brand on Long Haul, but a complete new concept instead.
 
FlyingHamster33
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AF to create new airline in 2017

Thu Nov 03, 2016 9:52 am

Part of the new "TrustTogether" business plan: a new airline to be created starting from winter 2017, both long and short haul, to compete with low cost, Asian and ME3 carriers. Pilots to be recruited on a volunteering basis from AF, and Cabin crew externally, on terms very similar to Transavia's. The newly created airline itself won't be low-cost.
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LGAviation
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Re: AF to create new airline in 2017

Thu Nov 03, 2016 9:55 am

What is that supposed to be, a legacy-like carrier to compete with LCC and ME3 that isn't low-cost and does both longhaul and shorthaul. Only AF could've come up with this. It kind of sounds like a perfect (union-free :D) AF mainline.
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yoni
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Re: AF to create new airline in 2017

Thu Nov 03, 2016 10:02 am

It looks like an Air Canada Rouge airline. Not a low-cost, but lower operation costs. AF plans to use its new A359 in this airline. Good to see AF being proactive.
 
OO-VEG
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Re: AF to create new airline in 2017

Thu Nov 03, 2016 10:18 am

yoni wrote:
It looks like an Air Canada Rouge airline. Not a low-cost, but lower operation costs. AF plans to use its new A359 in this airline. Good to see AF being proactive.


That's interesting, it's a good move to use a new type as that is less likely to cause a big stir with the existing pilots. Most interestingly, they mention the focus will be on routes towards Asia, which are loss-making, or no longer flown. So this could be an interesting expansion of the route network with lower-paid crew and a more efficient aircraft.
 
CRJ900
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Re: AF to create new airline in 2017

Thu Nov 03, 2016 10:20 am

"Le Long Hop!" for longer flights and "Le Hop!" for shorter flights :)
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chrisnh
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Re: AF to create new airline in 2017

Thu Nov 03, 2016 10:22 am

yoni wrote:
It looks like an Air Canada Rouge airline. Not a low-cost, but lower operation costs. AF plans to use its new A359 in this airline. Good to see AF being proactive.

If the focus is on 'lower operation cost' but NOT 'lower ticket cost,' why don't they just admit that this is a 'higher-profit airline?'
 
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KarelXWB
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Re: AF to create new airline in 2017

Thu Nov 03, 2016 10:23 am

So why not simply adding long-haul capacity to Transavia?
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
SCQ83
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Re: AF to create new airline in 2017

Thu Nov 03, 2016 10:26 am

What a big mess of a company. So now you will have:

- Air France
- HOP!
- Transavia France
- This new thing

Could it get more confusing?
 
runway23
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Re: AF to create new airline in 2017

Thu Nov 03, 2016 10:30 am

Wonder if it wouldn't be a good idea to resurrect an old popular brand for this airline - UTA ?
 
SCQ83
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Re: AF to create new airline in 2017

Thu Nov 03, 2016 10:32 am

Btw this seems AF's response to Le French Blue (or however it is called this new airline) and specially Norwegian doing long haul out of Paris.
 
OO-VEG
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Re: AF to create new airline in 2017

Thu Nov 03, 2016 10:36 am

SCQ83 wrote:
What a big mess of a company. So now you will have:

- Air France
- HOP!
- Transavia France
- This new thing

Could it get more confusing?


You could add KLM and Transavia Netherlands

chrisnh wrote:
If the focus is on 'lower operation cost' but NOT 'lower ticket cost,' why don't they just admit that this is a 'higher-profit airline?'


That's not what it's about. Lower operation costs = Lower ticket price. Low-Cost = Low ticket price. So this airline will somewhere sit in-between Norwegian & orginal Air France. Therefore hoping to close the gap with Emirates, which offers service for a lower price than AF does.
 
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N14AZ
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Re: AF to create new airline in 2017

Thu Nov 03, 2016 10:40 am

SCQ83 wrote:
What a big mess of a company. So now you will have:

- Air France
- HOP!
- Transavia France
- This new thing

Could it get more confusing?

Exactly what I thought. Or is it similar to what LH is doing with its or some of its A343s (even forgot the name of that thing, you know the 343s in *A-cls.)
 
andymartin
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Re: AF to create new airline in 2017

Thu Nov 03, 2016 10:42 am

How about improving their existing poor excuse for an airline instead of starting a new one?!
 
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Dutchy
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Re: AF to create new airline in 2017

Thu Nov 03, 2016 10:49 am

Why would this work? I am highly skeptical.

Then the thrust, so the pilots will have the same cost as with Air France, the ground handeling will be the same, only the cabin crew will be recruited else were. I suspect this will be some grounds for unrest among the ranks.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
anstar
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Re: AF to create new airline in 2017

Thu Nov 03, 2016 11:04 am

andymartin wrote:
How about improving their existing poor excuse for an airline instead of starting a new one?!


Probably because the unions wont let them become more effiient to allow them to better invest in their product.

Will the new airline have a new brand like LH did with eurowings or will it be kind of like an iberia express offering with parents branding but operated with lower cost crews?
 
SCQ83
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Re: AF to create new airline in 2017

Thu Nov 03, 2016 11:11 am

OO-VEG wrote:
You could add KLM and Transavia Netherlands


KLM and Air France are two historical brands of each country.

Transavia was supposed to be the low-cost of both of them, and even with two AOCs, it is a single commercial brand.

So it was very easy: the two legacies (AFKL) and the common low cost.

However the thing gets confusing (unsurprisingly) from the French side, with HOP and now this new low cost.
 
yoni
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Re: AF to create new airline in 2017

Thu Nov 03, 2016 11:18 am

OO-VEG wrote:
yoni wrote:
It looks like an Air Canada Rouge airline. Not a low-cost, but lower operation costs. AF plans to use its new A359 in this airline. Good to see AF being proactive.


That's interesting, it's a good move to use a new type as that is less likely to cause a big stir with the existing pilots. Most interestingly, they mention the focus will be on routes towards Asia, which are loss-making, or no longer flown. So this could be an interesting expansion of the route network with lower-paid crew and a more efficient aircraft.


Technically all these pilots will be from AF with the same pay & benefits, but they will have to work much more hours. FAs will be hired with new contracts (probably similar to Transavia).
 
oldannyboy
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Re: AF to create new airline in 2017

Thu Nov 03, 2016 11:26 am

I see lots of strikes on my crystal ball for the Groupe AF on the not too distant horizon....
 
yoni
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Re: AF to create new airline in 2017

Thu Nov 03, 2016 11:28 am

KarelXWB wrote:
So why not simply adding long-haul capacity to Transavia?


They had too much trouble with pilot unions when they tried to implement Transavia Europe. They don't want to re-start a conflict, I guess. In addition, I believe that Transavia France has pilots with different contracts depending if they come from AF or have been hired directly by Transavia. There seems to be some tension among pilots because of this situation. The previous management created a big mess. It was time to move on with new people.
 
yoni
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Re: AF to create new airline in 2017

Thu Nov 03, 2016 11:41 am

SCQ83 wrote:
OO-VEG wrote:
You could add KLM and Transavia Netherlands


KLM and Air France are two historical brands of each country.

Transavia was supposed to be the low-cost of both of them, and even with two AOCs, it is a single commercial brand.

So it was very easy: the two legacies (AFKL) and the common low cost.

However the thing gets confusing (unsurprisingly) from the French side, with HOP and now this new low cost.


Why "unsurprisingly from the French side" ? Unless you are being prejudiced against French people, it's hard to understand this statement.

Transavia France was not a success because the previous management was inept, plain and simple. The second issue is with KLM management and shareholders, they want to remain as independent as possible from AF (as agreed during the merger of both airlines within the newly created group). And now that's a problem because the group cannot make economies of scale like their competitors, LH and IAG. It will take a lot of convincing to change this odd structure from the new CEO who wants to improve the group's efficiencies and synergies.
 
Seat1F
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Re: AF to create new airline in 2017

Thu Nov 03, 2016 11:59 am

I see the creation of this new carrier as a final admission that AF cannot be fixed. Better to focus growth on a newer lower cost structure carrier and grow that (along with Transavia, KLM, etc) instead. AF will gradually be downsized as the other carriers in the family are grown. I see what the end-game is.

Could work as long as the AF unions play along. Big if.
 
trent768
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Re: AF to create new airline in 2017

Thu Nov 03, 2016 12:15 pm

Seat1F wrote:
I see the creation of this new carrier as a final admission that AF cannot be fixed. Better to focus growth on a newer lower cost structure carrier and grow that (along with Transavia, KLM, etc) instead. AF will gradually be downsized as the other carriers in the family are grown. I see what the end-game is.

Could work as long as the AF unions play along. Big if.

My thought exactly.
I'm not familiar with union or how union works, but how could they seems to have a bigger power than the management? Does every flight/cabin crew had to join them and 'obey' if the union decided to have a strike?
 
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N14AZ
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Re: AF to create new airline in 2017

Thu Nov 03, 2016 12:20 pm

Seat1F wrote:
I see the creation of this new carrier as a final admission that AF cannot be fixed. Better to focus growth on a newer lower cost structure carrier and grow that (along with Transavia, KLM, etc) instead. AF will gradually be downsized as the other carriers in the family are grown. I see what the end-game is.

Reminds me of the discussion about airline brands in Europe and their future... LH and AF becoming fig-leave-airlines with some VLAs as flagships and the rest of the operations in other airlines with lower operating cost....
 
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Aesma
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Re: AF to create new airline in 2017

Thu Nov 03, 2016 12:30 pm

Once again the confusion between low cost and low fare has us in a debate.

The new airline will be a low-cost : it exists specifically for that ! However, it won't be a barebones low fare airline, but offer a price-service compromise.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
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Aesma
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Re: AF to create new airline in 2017

Thu Nov 03, 2016 12:32 pm

trent768 wrote:
I'm not familiar with union or how union works, but how could they seems to have a bigger power than the management? Does every flight/cabin crew had to join them and 'obey' if the union decided to have a strike?


No in France most employees aren't part of a union as it doesn't provide benefits : what the unions get, every employee gets.

People will strike and protest regardless of being union members or not.

So it's not really the union that is powerful, but the employees. As it should be.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
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Aesma
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Re: AF to create new airline in 2017

Thu Nov 03, 2016 12:33 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Then the thrust, so the pilots will have the same cost as with Air France


Same salary with more flight hours is not "the same cost".
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
UAL777UK
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Re: AF to create new airline in 2017

Thu Nov 03, 2016 12:34 pm

Seat1F wrote:
I see the creation of this new carrier as a final admission that AF cannot be fixed. Better to focus growth on a newer lower cost structure carrier and grow that (along with Transavia, KLM, etc) instead. AF will gradually be downsized as the other carriers in the family are grown. I see what the end-game is.

Could work as long as the AF unions play along. Big if.


Could not agree more. If this is a success then I can see more long haul added at the expense of AF. Fun times ahead, the unions at AF will love this!
 
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Aesma
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Re: AF to create new airline in 2017

Thu Nov 03, 2016 12:36 pm

chrisnh wrote:
yoni wrote:
It looks like an Air Canada Rouge airline. Not a low-cost, but lower operation costs. AF plans to use its new A359 in this airline. Good to see AF being proactive.

If the focus is on 'lower operation cost' but NOT 'lower ticket cost,' why don't they just admit that this is a 'higher-profit airline?'


Ryanair is low cost, low fare, and very profitable. There isn't a simple correlation between these parameters.

Profit objective is 2-3% per year so not that high.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
Amsterdam
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Re: AF to create new airline in 2017

Thu Nov 03, 2016 1:39 pm

It's clear that AF has given up on restructuring mainline AF. It's official now.

This plan will cost money and wont succeed. 10 frames in 2020 what a joke. In 2020 Emirates and Norwegian will have added 10 frames to paris each alone. They wont be able to compete with norwegian likes and they wont be able to compete with emirates likes.

This new airline is actually what AF itself should become. But they have given up on that.
Last edited by Amsterdam on Thu Nov 03, 2016 1:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Polot
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Re: AF to create new airline in 2017

Thu Nov 03, 2016 1:42 pm

Aesma wrote:
Profit objective is 2-3% per year so not that high.

Profitable growth is targeted at 2-3% per year. I imagine they want the profit margins to be higher than that.
 
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readytotaxi
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Re: AF to create new airline in 2017

Thu Nov 03, 2016 5:19 pm

Amsterdam wrote:
It's clear that AF has given up on restructuring mainline AF. It's official now.

This plan will cost money and wont succeed. 10 frames in 2020 what a joke. In 2020 Emirates and Norwegian will have added 10 frames to paris each alone. They wont be able to compete with norwegian likes and they wont be able to compete with emirates likes.

This new airline is actually what AF itself should become. But they have given up on that.


I tend to agree, AF is a basket case going forward and I really doubt this new enterprise will ever turn a profit. Such a shame.
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N14AZ
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Re: AF to create new airline in 2017

Thu Nov 03, 2016 5:38 pm

Amsterdam wrote:
It's clear that AF has given up on restructuring mainline AF. It's official now.

This plan will cost money and wont succeed. 10 frames in 2020 what a joke. In 2020 Emirates and Norwegian will have added 10 frames to paris each alone. They wont be able to compete with norwegian likes and they wont be able to compete with emirates likes.

This new airline is actually what AF itself should become. But they have given up on that.

Just 10 frames in 2020? Compared with AF's fleet size, this sounds rather like a tool to threaten the unions than a real new airline. (.... hehe, that might be a good name "Union-Threatening-Airlines, briefly UTA.... oh, wait a moment....)
 
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Spiderguy252
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Re: AF to create new airline in 2017

Thu Nov 03, 2016 5:45 pm

SCQ83 wrote:
What a big mess of a company. So now you will have:

- Air France
- HOP!
- Transavia France
- This new thing

Could it get more confusing?


My thoughts exactly. And the new carrier will have grimy planes to boot too. :mrgreen:

N14AZ wrote:
Exactly what I thought. Or is it similar to what LH is doing with its or some of its A343s (even forgot the name of that thing, you know the 343s in *A-cls.)


Wing? Jump? Something like that, no?
Vahroone
 
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Aesma
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Re: AF to create new airline in 2017

Thu Nov 03, 2016 5:47 pm

Air Caraïbes has a fleet of 8.

French Blue has a fleet of 1 (so far).

Corsair International has a fleet of 7.

XL Airways has a fleet of 6 (or 1, depending on how you count).
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
konrad
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Re: AF to create new airline in 2017

Thu Nov 03, 2016 6:57 pm

CRJ900 wrote:
"Le Long Hop!" for longer flights and "Le Hop!" for shorter flights :)


My Hop! is longer than yours?
Sorry, just couldn't resist.
 
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VCEflyboy
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Re: AF to create new airline in 2017

Thu Nov 03, 2016 7:06 pm

Transavia has half a century of history. It's surprising to see AF have never shown any interest in developing the branding. Even in their key markets of France and the Netherlands the bra d is hardly recognizable.
 
jeffrey0032j
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Re: AF to create new airline in 2017

Thu Nov 03, 2016 7:21 pm

Spiderguy252 wrote:
SCQ83 wrote:
What a big mess of a company. So now you will have:

- Air France
- HOP!
- Transavia France
- This new thing

Could it get more confusing?


My thoughts exactly. And the new carrier will have grimy planes to boot too. :mrgreen:

N14AZ wrote:
Exactly what I thought. Or is it similar to what LH is doing with its or some of its A343s (even forgot the name of that thing, you know the 343s in *A-cls.)


Wing? Jump? Something like that, no?


Strike! :D
 
flylondon
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Re: AF to create new airline in 2017

Thu Nov 03, 2016 7:31 pm

Fiddling while Rome burns, just like Lufthansa.

IAG got it right when they forced down costs at the core airlines
 
migair54
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Re: AF to create new airline in 2017

Thu Nov 03, 2016 7:37 pm

Is this going to be a replacement of some AF services to places where AF flies the CIO configure planes?? that'd be a logic case in my opinion, high density planes to mainly touristic destinations, 14-32-422 is a horrible configuration for a long haul plane, so I guess the brand is not exactly a concern and profitability is key in this routes.

How many planes in this configuration and what routes are they using them on?? BKK, HAV, PUJ, PTP, REU,
 
benjjk
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Re: AF to create new airline in 2017

Fri Nov 04, 2016 4:46 am

This just sounds like a big, expensive, game of chicken between management and unions.
 
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Aesma
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Re: AF to create new airline in 2017

Fri Nov 04, 2016 6:13 am

VCEflyboy wrote:
Transavia has half a century of history. It's surprising to see AF have never shown any interest in developing the branding. Even in their key markets of France and the Netherlands the bra d is hardly recognizable.


If it has half a century of history but nobody knows about it (at least in France), what's the point ?
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
SCQ83
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Re: AF to create new airline in 2017

Fri Nov 04, 2016 7:49 am

jeffrey0032j wrote:
Strike! :D


"La Grève Airlines" sounds even chic in English.
 
commpilot
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Re: AF to create new airline in 2017

Fri Nov 04, 2016 8:37 am

SCQ83 wrote:
What a big mess of a company. So now you will have:

- Air France
- HOP!
- Transavia France
- This new thing

Could it get more confusing?

JUMP!
 
parapente
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Re: AF to create new airline in 2017

Fri Nov 04, 2016 9:00 am

This is shutting the stable door way after the horse has bolted.The regional LCC,s are well established now and they need to accept this.Regarding long haul ( the main thrust).Emirates is all about one stop from anywhere to anywhere at a good value price.Air France ( or anyone else) cannot match this model.Only government intervention can limit this, which is precisely what is being attempted in Europe and North America (it maybe happening in Asia too - certainly India is taking this 'limiting' route).
This new venture will failIMHO.
 
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KarelXWB
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Re: AF to create new airline in 2017

Fri Nov 04, 2016 10:35 am

Spiderguy252 wrote:
N14AZ wrote:
Exactly what I thought. Or is it similar to what LH is doing with its or some of its A343s (even forgot the name of that thing, you know the 343s in *A-cls.)


Wing? Jump? Something like that, no?


Jump, isn't that project dead?

LH added long-haul capacity to Eurowings and restructured short haul ops, I have the feeling LH Group tries to make things less complex. Quite the opposite from AF.
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
Someone83
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Re: AF to create new airline in 2017

Fri Nov 04, 2016 10:45 am

KarelXWB wrote:
Spiderguy252 wrote:
N14AZ wrote:
Exactly what I thought. Or is it similar to what LH is doing with its or some of its A343s (even forgot the name of that thing, you know the 343s in *A-cls.)


Wing? Jump? Something like that, no?


Jump, isn't that project dead?

LH added long-haul capacity to Eurowings and restructured short haul ops, I have the feeling LH Group tries to make things less complex. Quite the opposite from AF.


"Jump" is very much alive, just not called this anymore. Jump turned out to be the A340-300s that was transfered to Cityline, and now are flying on behalf of Lufthansa on low yield longhaul out of FRA
 
smi0006
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Re: AF to create new airline in 2017

Fri Nov 04, 2016 11:34 am

Makes sense if you can't do B-Grade contracts, most legacy airlines have stopped hiring staff on legacy contracts, legacy staff won't take a pay cut, will sacrifice those conditions for new hires - QF- QCCA, QCCD, BA - mixed fleet. But if AF unions still won't buy that, create a new airlines, all new expansion with the new airline, then in five years time role it back into the same legacy airline and keep the cheaper contracts. Good idea to me
 
AMS18C36C
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Re: AF to create new airline in 2017

Fri Nov 04, 2016 12:23 pm

Is this the entire Trust Together plan, just make a new long haul airline? Or am I missing something?
 
andymartin
Posts: 152
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Re: AF to create new airline in 2017

Fri Nov 04, 2016 12:31 pm

Let's face it, French workers strike at the drop of a hat so new airline or old if the crew room runs out of coffee it will be a case of everybody out.

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