fjmm92
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Norwegian Europe- Argentina/Chile late 2017

Thu Nov 03, 2016 11:26 am

According to an interview with Bjorm Kjos in a spanish media, Norwegian will begin direct flights from Argentina and Chile to Barcelona, London, Paris and Oslo in late 2017.

In addition, Bjorm Kjos confirms that Madrid Airport will not have long-haul flights in the short run because of the strong competition with Iberia.

http://www.eleconomista.es/mercados-cot ... -2017.html (spanish)

http://www.finanzas.com/noticias/empres ... 11676.html (spanish)
 
SCQ83
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Re: Norwegian Europe- Argentina/Chile late 2017

Thu Nov 03, 2016 11:50 am

Umm?

The article says (from what Kjos presumably said in English) that they started long-haul first from BCN because "in Madrid there is much more offer to the Americas" but that they "don't forget about Madrid in their future (long-haul) plans"
 
Someone83
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Re: Norwegian Europe- Argentina/Chile late 2017

Thu Nov 03, 2016 12:04 pm

Kjos was in Argentina some weeks ago, and after that was talking about an potential base in Buenos Aires
 
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lesfalls
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Re: Norwegian Europe- Argentina/Chile late 2017

Thu Nov 03, 2016 12:22 pm

I can't see OSL-SCL/EZE working out . How much demand is there between South america and Norway?
Lufthansa: Einfach ein bisschen mehr. (Only a little more)
 
SCQ83
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Re: Norwegian Europe- Argentina/Chile late 2017

Thu Nov 03, 2016 12:31 pm

lesfalls wrote:
I can't see OSL-SCL/EZE working out . How much demand is there between South america and Norway?


There is Chilean VFR (from the times of Pinochet) in Scandinavia but probably not enough for such a long flight.
 
LPSHobby
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Re: Norwegian Europe- Argentina/Chile late 2017

Thu Nov 03, 2016 1:07 pm

and what about Brazil?
 
Ferroviarius
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Re: Norwegian Europe- Argentina/Chile late 2017

Thu Nov 03, 2016 1:40 pm

lesfalls wrote:
I can't see OSL-SCL/EZE working out . How much demand is there between South america and Norway?


Good afternoon,

well there has been a comparatively large Swedish community in Argentina - so that there even was, and in a way or another still is, a Swedish Church in Buenos Aires - as a consequence of earlier migration, see https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argentinasvenskar or https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_Argentine . Braathens SAFE (at which SAFE was an abbreviation of "South America and Far East") had some flights to South America but, as far as I know, never made it to any destination south of the equator in South America. See https://no.wikipedia.org/wiki/Braathens or https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Braathens . There are also a considerable number of the children and already grand children generation of people, who had to flee from their homes and found a refuge in Scandinavia, when the fascists took over in Chile in 1973. I do not know whether there is a noticeable number of former Argentine refugees or their children. And, of course, there might be some mutual tourism. LH's direct flight FRA-EZE has, as far as I know, a good load factor. I do not know how it is with BA's from LHR.

Best,
Ferroviarius
 
MalevTU134
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Re: Norwegian Europe- Argentina/Chile late 2017

Thu Nov 03, 2016 2:12 pm

Ferroviarius wrote:
lesfalls wrote:
I can't see OSL-SCL/EZE working out . How much demand is there between South america and Norway?


Good afternoon,

well there has been a comparatively large Swedish community in Argentina - so that there even was, and in a way or another still is, a Swedish Church in Buenos Aires - as a consequence of earlier migration, see https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argentinasvenskar or https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_Argentine . Braathens SAFE (at which SAFE was an abbreviation of "South America and Far East") had some flights to South America but, as far as I know, never made it to any destination south of the equator in South America. See https://no.wikipedia.org/wiki/Braathens or https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Braathens . There are also a considerable number of the children and already grand children generation of people, who had to flee from their homes and found a refuge in Scandinavia, when the fascists took over in Chile in 1973. I do not know whether there is a noticeable number of former Argentine refugees or their children. And, of course, there might be some mutual tourism. LH's direct flight FRA-EZE has, as far as I know, a good load factor. I do not know how it is with BA's from LHR.

Best,
Ferroviarius


I'm Swedish, and I lived in Argentina for 10 years, and I can tell you that there are an insignificant number of Swedes living in Argentina. And there are, from the top of my head, around 40.000 Chileans living in Sweden, but many are now 2nd and 3rd generation. All this amounts to very little and low yield traffic. The business ties between Argentina/Chile and Scandinavia are not that huge either. I, too, cannot see any reason why this flight would succeed.

Now, ARN-GRU would be a completely different matter, with lots of business connections between the two countries (and centered in São Paulo specifically). The question is, would Norwegian be able to tap into this, or would these customers keep flying LH business class and keep earning EuroBonus points?
 
C010T3
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Re: Norwegian Europe- Argentina/Chile late 2017

Thu Nov 03, 2016 2:29 pm

LPSHobby wrote:
and what about Brazil?


Norwegian thinks that the country is in such crisis that it does not make sense to fly there.

I think that's funny and wish them best of luck.
 
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ojjunior
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Re: Norwegian Europe- Argentina/Chile late 2017

Thu Nov 03, 2016 2:45 pm

C010T3 wrote:
LPSHobby wrote:
and what about Brazil?


Norwegian thinks that the country is in such crisis that it does not make sense to fly there.

Please clarify me then in which world is Argentina doing fine enough to start flying there???
Had the Norwegians lost internet and TV coverage?
How silly...
 
ahj2000
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Thu Nov 03, 2016 2:48 pm

AR, IB, and LA must be about to throw a fit.
Also, I would've expected CPT and/or Canada first.
-Andrés Juánez
 
SCQ83
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Re: Norwegian Europe- Argentina/Chile late 2017

Thu Nov 03, 2016 2:50 pm

ojjunior wrote:
C010T3 wrote:
LPSHobby wrote:
and what about Brazil?


Norwegian thinks that the country is in such crisis that it does not make sense to fly there.

Please clarify me then in which world is Argentina doing fine enough to start flying there???
Had the Norwegians lost internet and TV coverage?
How silly...


Compared to Brazil, the outcome for Argentina and Chile in 2017 is much better

http://www.buenosairesherald.com/articl ... -recession

I also suspect it has to do with the fact that Argentinians and Chileans are wealthier in general and have more means to travel to Europe, and those are trendier holiday destinations for Europeans than Brazil.
 
C010T3
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Re: Norwegian Europe- Argentina/Chile late 2017

Thu Nov 03, 2016 2:55 pm

ojjunior wrote:
C010T3 wrote:
LPSHobby wrote:
and what about Brazil?


Norwegian thinks that the country is in such crisis that it does not make sense to fly there.

Please clarify me then in which world is Argentina doing fine enough to start flying there???
Had the Norwegians lost internet and TV coverage?
How silly...


I do agree that Argentina and Chile have less problematic labour regulation that would allow them to hire local crew. Also, both countries are underserved in terms of long-haul, so it does make sense to fly there. Establishing itself in Argentina before AR reemerges from its crisis is also a good step.
The only issue is the fact that Brazil is not only closer to Europe, but also in its way, no to mention the fact that its market is larger than Argentina's and Chile's combined.
 
SCQ83
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Re: Norwegian Europe- Argentina/Chile late 2017

Thu Nov 03, 2016 3:04 pm

C010T3 wrote:
I do agree that Argentina and Chile have less problematic labour regulation that would allow them to hire local crew. Also, both countries are underserved in terms of long-haul, so it does make sense to fly there. Establishing itself in Argentina before AR reemerges from its crisis is also a good step.
The only issue is the fact that Brazil is not only closer to Europe, but also in its way, no to mention the fact that its market is larger than Argentina's and Chile's combined.


The advantage of Argentina (and to a lesser extent Chile) is that they could be easily estimulated for "Norwegian-style" leisure European traffic.

Buenos Aires (and the combo Ushuaia, Calafate, etc) and Chile (Atacama, Rapa Nui) are attractive destinations but the current flights do not make necessarily cheap or convenient to get there from a good part of Europe. That is the same kind of people that might fly to Oakland. Specially since domestic low-cost is itself growing in those markets (i.e. SkyAirline in Chile). So someone buys the Norwegian to EZE or SCL and then sort themselves out for domestic flights. This is what everybody and their dog do in Asia; cheap ME3 to BKK or KUL and then Air Asia anywhere.

Brazil is a different matter, because places like Recife attract in general a very different type of "tourist". And Rio despite the Olympics does not seem to get more attraction (no Barcelona 92 effect). It might have been a bad publicity given all the safety and health issues during the Olympics.
 
C010T3
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Re: Norwegian Europe- Argentina/Chile late 2017

Thu Nov 03, 2016 4:54 pm

SCQ83 wrote:
The advantage of Argentina (and to a lesser extent Chile) is that they could be easily estimulated for "Norwegian-style" leisure European traffic.

Buenos Aires (and the combo Ushuaia, Calafate, etc) and Chile (Atacama, Rapa Nui) are attractive destinations but the current flights do not make necessarily cheap or convenient to get there from a good part of Europe. That is the same kind of people that might fly to Oakland. Specially since domestic low-cost is itself growing in those markets (i.e. SkyAirline in Chile). So someone buys the Norwegian to EZE or SCL and then sort themselves out for domestic flights. This is what everybody and their dog do in Asia; cheap ME3 to BKK or KUL and then Air Asia anywhere.

Brazil is a different matter, because places like Recife attract in general a very different type of "tourist". And Rio despite the Olympics does not seem to get more attraction (no Barcelona 92 effect). It might have been a bad publicity given all the safety and health issues during the Olympics.


Let^s restart this thread when hordes of European tourists invade Tierra del Fuego, Magallanes and Patagonia.
 
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ojjunior
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Re: Norwegian Europe- Argentina/Chile late 2017

Thu Nov 03, 2016 4:56 pm

SCQ83 wrote:
ojjunior wrote:
C010T3 wrote:

Norwegian thinks that the country is in such crisis that it does not make sense to fly there.

Please clarify me then in which world is Argentina doing fine enough to start flying there???
Had the Norwegians lost internet and TV coverage?
How silly...


Compared to Brazil, the outcome for Argentina and Chile in 2017 is much better

http://www.buenosairesherald.com/articl ... -recession

I also suspect it has to do with the fact that Argentinians and Chileans are wealthier in general and have more means to travel to Europe, and those are trendier holiday destinations for Europeans than Brazil.


And you rely on a local Argentinian media channel for that?
Good move...
 
SCQ83
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Re: Norwegian Europe- Argentina/Chile late 2017

Thu Nov 03, 2016 5:09 pm

ojjunior wrote:
And you rely on a local Argentinian media channel for that?
Good move...


GDP growth projections are always a bit of a gamble, but most of them show Argentina in a better light than Brazil

BBVA shows 3.2% for 2017

https://www.bbvaresearch.com/wp-content ... k_2Q16.pdf
 
SCQ83
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Re: Norwegian Europe- Argentina/Chile late 2017

Thu Nov 03, 2016 5:18 pm

C010T3 wrote:
Let^s restart this thread when hordes of European tourists invade Tierra del Fuego, Magallanes and Patagonia.


You are trying to be ironic, but put them (cheap) flights and they will go. And you know very well those are extreme locations, but the Salar de Atacama, Rapa Nui (OK this is also remote) or Buenos Aires (and a quick side trip to Montevideo) are very popular.

One problem with European tourists in LATAM is that flying to and once there is expensive. But as I said it might be changing with low costs like SkyAirline in Chile or more competition in Brazil's domestic market.

It is hard to justify when for Asia you take your €500 EK to BKK and from there you have ultra cheap fares anywhere in the area. In LATAM at the moment that is not the case and will certainly put some more budget-oriented travellers off (and here is where Norwegian makes sense).
 
descl
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Re: Norwegian Europe- Argentina/Chile late 2017

Thu Nov 03, 2016 9:16 pm

lesfalls wrote:
I can't see OSL-SCL/EZE working out . How much demand is there between South america and Norway?


I don't know how important Chile-Norway traffic is, but I know trafic to Sweden is pretty important. As a matter of fact, SCL - ARN is Chile - Europe 5th largest O&D city pair, after SCL - Madrid, London, Paris and Frankfurt.
Then there are Salmon companies from Norway that are quite big in Chile, but I don´t think they generate much trafic (although probably high yielding).
 
AviationRhys
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Re: Norwegian Europe- Argentina/Chile late 2017

Thu Nov 03, 2016 10:51 pm

I think Norwegian need to start thinking about operating a LGW-BKK flight before EZE/SCL as it is long overdue and has a greater demand. Also if they do set up a base in Manchester they should also look at opening a route to BKK, as the demand is there. I think in terms of North American expansion from LGW we could see ORD & BWI next.
 
Waterbomber
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Re: Norwegian Europe- Argentina/Chile late 2017

Thu Nov 03, 2016 11:10 pm

It's amazing how every week brings a new Norwegian thread on airliners.net
For boasting to be a LCC, they're not even cheap and don't even have a business model or any profits to show for all the soundbytes that they are making. What I wonder is who is pouring all this capital into this money pit and continuing to do so despite repetitive failures, unsustainable business practices and unnecessarily complicated business constructions to achieve these.

Also, on the global scale, this is a micro-airline. Let's stop talking about it like it's the big holy grail.
Obviously, they're out for cheap advertising.
I don't see them lasting very long as a stand-alone. Perhaps I see them as another acquisition target for HNA.
Last edited by Waterbomber on Thu Nov 03, 2016 11:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Mortyman
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Re: Norwegian Europe- Argentina/Chile late 2017

Thu Nov 03, 2016 11:15 pm

AviationRhys wrote:
I think Norwegian need to start thinking about operating a LGW-BKK flight before EZE/SCL as it is long overdue and has a greater demand. Also if they do set up a base in Manchester they should also look at opening a route to BKK, as the demand is there. I think in terms of North American expansion from LGW we could see ORD & BWI next.



Norwegian has problems getting overfly rights over Russia, so I'm not sure of how proffittable it would be ? I'm guessing they would have to make a detour ?
 
sevenair
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Re: Norwegian Europe- Argentina/Chile late 2017

Thu Nov 03, 2016 11:23 pm

Another week. This time the darts thrown at the Atlas on the wall in Norwegian's office has created yet more random routes that haven't a hope of making money.
#NotAllDrones
 
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Mortyman
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Re: Norwegian Europe- Argentina/Chile late 2017

Thu Nov 03, 2016 11:26 pm

sevenair wrote:
Another week. This time the darts thrown at the Atlas on the wall in Norwegian's office has created yet more random routes that haven't a hope of making money.


What makes you say that ? Norwegian has been very successfull with their long haul operations so far when it comes to choosing routes.
 
sevenair
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Re: Norwegian Europe- Argentina/Chile late 2017

Thu Nov 03, 2016 11:31 pm

Very successful? They're up to their eyeballs in debt and only just turned a profit.
#NotAllDrones
 
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Mortyman
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Re: Norwegian Europe- Argentina/Chile late 2017

Fri Nov 04, 2016 12:04 am

sevenair wrote:
Very successful? They're up to their eyeballs in debt and only just turned a profit.


Their aircraft is full and they keep on opening new bases, adding new routes and new aircraft to the fleet. But yes, such expansion also cost money, something that the board of Norwegian is very aware of and have always made clear , when talking to media.
 
steve6666
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Re: Norwegian Europe- Argentina/Chile late 2017

Fri Nov 04, 2016 12:06 am

SCQ83 wrote:
C010T3 wrote:
the Salar de Atacama, Rapa Nui (OK this is also remote) or Buenos Aires (and a quick side trip to Montevideo) are very popular.

One problem with European tourists in LATAM is that flying to and once there is expensive. But as I said it might be changing with low costs like SkyAirline in Chile or more competition in Brazil's domestic market.


There is no way that Norwegian can serve Easter Island from Europe more efficiently than LATAM can, especially in conjunction with IB and BA connectivity as well.
Like anything. flying to Latin America from Europe can be expensive if you just buy at the headline price. But if you shop around, then I've paid around £500 for a LON - Sao Paulo/Rio direct in the past in Economy (and there's a £500 fare to Lima available now), and I have a £2000 Business Class fare for flights next month that has consistently been available on the same basic routing for a number of years. Flying within Latin America isn't expensive. It may not be Easyjet/Ryanair/Air Asia cheap, but expensive it isn't, especially not in Brazil. You can get a GOL Airpass for just over $100 a segment for flights within Brazil. I flew a CGH-LDB return for about £80 in March on TAM, that is not expensive. If you take the Ponte Aerea on a Monday morning and Friday evening, *then* it'll be expensive, but for tourists there's no reason why flying within Brazil should be expensive. If Norwegian enter the Europe - LatAm route, then I'd expect a swift response from Iberia and LATAM eating from the top with a better and more frequent schedule, more differentiated service, equally cost effective equipment (A350) and the ability to funnel through hubs at either end. And potentially adding capacity to fill at the bottom end on price.
A306, A318, A319, A320, A321, A332, A333, A343, A346, A388, B722, B732, B733, B734, B735, B73G, B738, B742, B744, B752, B753, B762, B763, B764, B772, B773, B77W, B787-8, BAe-146, Cessna Something, DC-10, E175, E195, ERJ145, MD-11, MD-80, PA Something
 
TYCOON
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Re: Norwegian Europe- Argentina/Chile late 2017

Sat Nov 05, 2016 12:13 am

SCQ83 wrote:
ojjunior wrote:
C010T3 wrote:

Norwegian thinks that the country is in such crisis that it does not make sense to fly there.

Please clarify me then in which world is Argentina doing fine enough to start flying there???
Had the Norwegians lost internet and TV coverage?
How silly...


Compared to Brazil, the outcome for Argentina and Chile in 2017 is much better

http://www.buenosairesherald.com/articl ... -recession

I also suspect it has to do with the fact that Argentinians and Chileans are wealthier in general and have more means to travel to Europe, and those are trendier holiday destinations for Europeans than Brazil.


If you only look at stats on a per capita basis maybe you are correct SCQ83, but in absolute numbers (ie what fills airplane seats), there are more Brazilians traveling to Europe than Argentinians and Chileans combined... Furthermore, the GDP of Sao Paulo is bigger than either Argentina's or Chile's total GDP, and if you derive a Sao Paulo per capita, I am sure you would arrive at a higher figure than Chile or Argentina.
Brazil is a very popular tourist destination for Europeans, more so than either Argentina or Chile (which are indeed also attractive, but don't hold the cache or trendiness as Brazil does). Not sure why you think Recife only appeals to certain 'tourists' - whoever those are - as there are a number of European charter or quasi-regular flights to the Northeast of Brazil (Fortaleza, Natal, Recife). I even remember a few years back arriving at the airport in Recife and there was a Finnair B757 boarding for a flight to Helsinki via the Canary Islands. I found out Finnair ran a regular weekly service during their winter months... So, very odd I would think for Norwegian not to look first at Brazil before Argentina or Chile.
 
b747400erf
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Re: Norwegian Europe- Argentina/Chile late 2017

Sat Nov 05, 2016 6:20 am

TYCOON wrote:
SCQ83 wrote:
ojjunior wrote:
Please clarify me then in which world is Argentina doing fine enough to start flying there???
Had the Norwegians lost internet and TV coverage?
How silly...


Compared to Brazil, the outcome for Argentina and Chile in 2017 is much better

http://www.buenosairesherald.com/articl ... -recession

I also suspect it has to do with the fact that Argentinians and Chileans are wealthier in general and have more means to travel to Europe, and those are trendier holiday destinations for Europeans than Brazil.


If you only look at stats on a per capita basis maybe you are correct SCQ83, but in absolute numbers (ie what fills airplane seats), there are more Brazilians traveling to Europe than Argentinians and Chileans combined... Furthermore, the GDP of Sao Paulo is bigger than either Argentina's or Chile's total GDP, and if you derive a Sao Paulo per capita, I am sure you would arrive at a higher figure than Chile or Argentina.
Brazil is a very popular tourist destination for Europeans, more so than either Argentina or Chile (which are indeed also attractive, but don't hold the cache or trendiness as Brazil does). Not sure why you think Recife only appeals to certain 'tourists' - whoever those are - as there are a number of European charter or quasi-regular flights to the Northeast of Brazil (Fortaleza, Natal, Recife). I even remember a few years back arriving at the airport in Recife and there was a Finnair B757 boarding for a flight to Helsinki via the Canary Islands. I found out Finnair ran a regular weekly service during their winter months... So, very odd I would think for Norwegian not to look first at Brazil before Argentina or Chile.


Political instability can lead to dangerous situations in Brasil they could be staying clear for that reason.
 
SCQ83
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Re: Norwegian Europe- Argentina/Chile late 2017

Sat Nov 05, 2016 7:27 am

TYCOON wrote:
If you only look at stats on a per capita basis maybe you are correct SCQ83, but in absolute numbers (ie what fills airplane seats), there are more Brazilians traveling to Europe than Argentinians and Chileans combined... Furthermore, the GDP of Sao Paulo is bigger than either Argentina's or Chile's total GDP, and if you derive a Sao Paulo per capita, I am sure you would arrive at a higher figure than Chile or Argentina.
Brazil is a very popular tourist destination for Europeans, more so than either Argentina or Chile (which are indeed also attractive, but don't hold the cache or trendiness as Brazil does). Not sure why you think Recife only appeals to certain 'tourists' - whoever those are - as there are a number of European charter or quasi-regular flights to the Northeast of Brazil (Fortaleza, Natal, Recife). I even remember a few years back arriving at the airport in Recife and there was a Finnair B757 boarding for a flight to Helsinki via the Canary Islands. I found out Finnair ran a regular weekly service during their winter months... So, very odd I would think for Norwegian not to look first at Brazil before Argentina or Chile.


I don't agree with your points of view. Of course Brazil is a much larger country, but that is why it has more competition in routes to GRU or GIG. You are comparing a country of 200M with a country of 30-40M (Argentina) and another one much smaller (Chile).

Regarding who travels more, dunno. As it has been mentioned there are large Argentinian or Chilean communities in Scandinavia. Then there is a lot of people with European background in AR/CL that you have to a lesser extent in Brazil. I am talking about those descendants from Germans in those countries (OK you have that in Brazil but to a lesser extent), BA having the largest Jewish community in LATAM, even those descendants of Spaniards and Italians in Argentina / Uruguay (i.e. until recently there were seasonal SCQ-EZE flights) that are usually wealthy enough to travel often to Europe.

Even in Chile (which is the most developed country in LATAM) you have many young and middle-age Europeans (mainly Spaniards, but I even know French) who work there with "professional" jobs. This people will travel at least once a year back home.

So from Spain (and that includes BCN), EZE or SCL (specially since there is no SCL-BCN) makes more sense. Not for a reason, IB/LATAM run up to 17 weekly MAD-SCL (with little connectivity on the Chilean side) while only 14 weekly MAD-GRU (a much shorter flight with plenty of connectivity in GRU). And bear in mind MAD is the busiest European destination from GRU (as of 2015), ahead of CDG, FRA and LIS.

As for trendy, I dunno what has Recife as trendy. Maybe Rio has some trendiness, but as we have seen the Olympics have been a major flop in raising the profile of the city. As I said, no BCN 92 effect there. Argentina and Chile would be "trendier" destinations without any doubt. Buenos Aires is easily the trendiest city in LATAM (despite the political issues), and places like the Salar de Atacama, Torres del Paine, Tierra de Fuego are more hipster material in Instagram that some beach in NE Brazil.
 
SCQ83
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Re: Norwegian Europe- Argentina/Chile late 2017

Sat Nov 05, 2016 8:02 am

Btw those are MAD-EZE/GRU/SCL numbers for 2015:

MAD-EZE: 783,907 (Aerolíneas / Air Europa / Iberia)
MAD-GRU: 686,821 (Air China / Air Europa / Iberia / LATAM)
MAD-SCL: 412,638 (Iberia / LATAM)

So Madrid-Buenos Aires is a larger market than any Sao Paulo - Europe combination (despite the local power purchase mentioned by Tycoon). And that is despite Buenos Aires having pretty much 0 connectivity (unless it is MVD or provincial Argentina), and GRU being a Oneworld (Iberia/LATAM) hub connecting everywhere in LATAM, and a much shorter flight. MAD-SCL not bad either for a real monopoly, a much longer route than GRU with also little connectivity on the SCL side due to location.

So it is not surprising that if they are starting flights from BCN, EZE (served by Aerolíneas), SCL (unserved) come first than GRU (served by LATAM). Because the existing links with Argentina and even Chile are deeper than with Brazil.

Btw it is well known that BCN has a large Argentinian community, and Barcelona is the province in Spain with more Argentinians, ahead of Madrid http://www.lavanguardia.com/vangdata/20 ... spana.html

Of course those numbers (75,000 in Spain) are completely irreal as most Argentinians in Spain have Spanish/Italian passport (that is one of the main reasons Italians are the largest foreign population in Barcelona). So that means that just to start with there is a large VFR between EZE and BCN that now flies Aerolíneas or connects in MAD or GRU (LATAM's new BCN-GRU is quite aggressive selling LATAM connections, probably due to the Brazilian crisis).

b747400erf wrote:
Political instability can lead to dangerous situations in Brasil they could be staying clear for that reason.


I also suspect that is the problem with GRU. Also GRU is business or local Brazilian to Europe (I mean who in Europe goes to Sao Paulo on holiday), while EZE or SCL can work both directions. Norwegian is an European company, so it will look to take first and foremost European holidaymakers to the world (US, Thailand, Caribbean; in the US case of course it works both directions) and not Brazilians looking for a cheap fare to Europe.
 
geoshina
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Re: Norwegian Europe- Argentina/Chile late 2017

Sat Nov 05, 2016 10:15 am

SCQ83 wrote:
I don't agree with your points of view. Of course Brazil is a much larger country, but that is why it has more competition in routes to GRU or GIG. You are comparing a country of 200M with a country of 30-40M (Argentina) and another one much smaller (Chile).

Regarding who travels more, dunno. As it has been mentioned there are large Argentinian or Chilean communities in Scandinavia. Then there is a lot of people with European background in AR/CL that you have to a lesser extent in Brazil. I am talking about those descendants from Germans in those countries (OK you have that in Brazil but to a lesser extent).


You are completely wrong here, SCQ83. How come Brazil have less european background than AR/CL? By saying this you completely ignore the brazilian history. The thing is that Brazil have the largest european variation background whereas the rest of the Latin American is mostly (but not exclusive) spanish. History and demographics goes a long way to understand Brazil.

SCQ83 wrote:
Even in Chile (which is the most developed country in LATAM) you have many young and middle-age Europeans (mainly Spaniards, but I even know French) who work there with "professional" jobs. This people will travel at least once a year back home.


It's funny that you mention this, because in Brazil there are also many young middle-age European (mainly Portuguesue, but I even know Spaniards and Italians) who work here with "professional" jobs. Have you ever heard of the Fiat factory in Betim, Minas Gerais? You should take a look at it. Or their newest factory in Pernambuco? How about the VW factory in São Bernando do Campo? How about the Peugeot-Citroen factory in Porto Real, Rio de Janeiro? BMW in Santa Catarina? The Accor group with hotels scattered all over Brazil? How about DeLaval Company? Just some companies where you can find plenty of " middle-age Europeans" that travel at least once a year back home. Not to mention the Portuguese people and TAP connectivity in Brazil.


SCQ83 wrote:
So from Spain (and that includes BCN), EZE or SCL (specially since there is no SCL-BCN) makes more sense. Not for a reason, IB/LATAM run up to 17 weekly MAD-SCL (with little connectivity on the Chilean side) while only 14 weekly MAD-GRU (a much shorter flight with plenty of connectivity in GRU). And bear in mind MAD is the busiest European destination from GRU (as of 2015), ahead of CDG, FRA and LIS.


This only happened because of the merger (I prefer to call acquisition) of former TAM by LAN. They left Star Alliance and joined OneWorld. Back then MAD was the main city for LAN. So it was clearly that they wanted to make MAD the LATAM hub in Europe. And we can see that it is clearly working.
 
geoshina
Posts: 197
Joined: Tue Dec 09, 2014 8:18 pm

Re: Norwegian Europe- Argentina/Chile late 2017

Sat Nov 05, 2016 10:38 am

SCQ83 wrote:
Btw those are MAD-EZE/GRU/SCL numbers for 2015:

MAD-EZE: 783,907 (Aerolíneas / Air Europa / Iberia)
MAD-GRU: 686,821 (Air China / Air Europa / Iberia / LATAM)
MAD-SCL: 412,638 (Iberia / LATAM)

So Madrid-Buenos Aires is a larger market than any Sao Paulo - Europe combination (despite the local power purchase mentioned by Tycoon). And that is despite Buenos Aires having pretty much 0 connectivity (unless it is MVD or provincial Argentina), and GRU being a Oneworld (Iberia/LATAM) hub connecting everywhere in LATAM, and a much shorter flight. MAD-SCL not bad either for a real monopoly, a much longer route than GRU with also little connectivity on the SCL side due to location.


Madrid-Buenos Aires will definitely be larger than Sao Paulo. For me this just goes to show that there's still major historial ties between there two cities / countries. It is not real comparison. First , as I said, because of historical ties between these two cities that you mention (SCL and EZE) with MAD. Once again I quote history so that you can better understand the reasons why this happens and the reason why TAP flies from POA (south) to BEL(north) but does not fly to any of these two cities (SCL/EZE). As far as I can understand Brazilian pax are diluted throughout all the major hubs. Second: MAD-EZE is the only gateway to the country, whereas in Brazil you have GRU and GIG, not to mention Air Europa that flies to Recife or Salvador (I think).

SCQ83 wrote:
Of course those numbers (75,000 in Spain) are completely irreal as most Argentinians in Spain have Spanish/Italian passport (that is one of the main reasons Italians are the largest foreign population in Barcelona). So that means that just to start with there is a large VFR between EZE and BCN that now flies Aerolíneas or connects in MAD or GRU (LATAM's new BCN-GRU is quite aggressive selling LATAM connections, probably due to the Brazilian crisis).


Do you have any idea how much of the Brazilian population also have double-citizenship? Brazilian / Portuguese, Brazilian / Spanish, Brazilian / Italian, Brazilian / French, Brazilian / German? Once again I quote Brazilian history and immigration patterns because it seems there's a lack of knowledge here.
 
TYCOON
Posts: 475
Joined: Sun Feb 18, 2007 8:20 pm

Re: Norwegian Europe- Argentina/Chile late 2017

Sat Nov 05, 2016 10:30 pm

SCQ83 wrote:
TYCOON wrote:
If you only look at stats on a per capita basis maybe you are correct SCQ83, but in absolute numbers (ie what fills airplane seats), there are more Brazilians traveling to Europe than Argentinians and Chileans combined... Furthermore, the GDP of Sao Paulo is bigger than either Argentina's or Chile's total GDP, and if you derive a Sao Paulo per capita, I am sure you would arrive at a higher figure than Chile or Argentina.
Brazil is a very popular tourist destination for Europeans, more so than either Argentina or Chile (which are indeed also attractive, but don't hold the cache or trendiness as Brazil does). Not sure why you think Recife only appeals to certain 'tourists' - whoever those are - as there are a number of European charter or quasi-regular flights to the Northeast of Brazil (Fortaleza, Natal, Recife). I even remember a few years back arriving at the airport in Recife and there was a Finnair B757 boarding for a flight to Helsinki via the Canary Islands. I found out Finnair ran a regular weekly service during their winter months... So, very odd I would think for Norwegian not to look first at Brazil before Argentina or Chile.


I don't agree with your points of view. Of course Brazil is a much larger country, but that is why it has more competition in routes to GRU or GIG. You are comparing a country of 200M with a country of 30-40M (Argentina) and another one much smaller (Chile).

Regarding who travels more, dunno. As it has been mentioned there are large Argentinian or Chilean communities in Scandinavia. Then there is a lot of people with European background in AR/CL that you have to a lesser extent in Brazil. I am talking about those descendants from Germans in those countries (OK you have that in Brazil but to a lesser extent), BA having the largest Jewish community in LATAM, even those descendants of Spaniards and Italians in Argentina / Uruguay (i.e. until recently there were seasonal SCQ-EZE flights) that are usually wealthy enough to travel often to Europe.

Even in Chile (which is the most developed country in LATAM) you have many young and middle-age Europeans (mainly Spaniards, but I even know French) who work there with "professional" jobs. This people will travel at least once a year back home.

So from Spain (and that includes BCN), EZE or SCL (specially since there is no SCL-BCN) makes more sense. Not for a reason, IB/LATAM run up to 17 weekly MAD-SCL (with little connectivity on the Chilean side) while only 14 weekly MAD-GRU (a much shorter flight with plenty of connectivity in GRU). And bear in mind MAD is the busiest European destination from GRU (as of 2015), ahead of CDG, FRA and LIS.

As for trendy, I dunno what has Recife as trendy. Maybe Rio has some trendiness, but as we have seen the Olympics have been a major flop in raising the profile of the city. As I said, no BCN 92 effect there. Argentina and Chile would be "trendier" destinations without any doubt. Buenos Aires is easily the trendiest city in LATAM (despite the political issues), and places like the Salar de Atacama, Torres del Paine, Tierra de Fuego are more hipster material in Instagram that some beach in NE Brazil.


Sorry SCQ83, but I am having difficulty following your argument here... Brazil has a large and wealthy population of European descent with ties to the continent. The initial thread talked about Norwegian opening flights not just from Spain, but from Paris, London and Oslo. Brazil - Europe traffic is larger by leaps and bounds than either Chile or Argentina - Europe traffic. Just look at London or Paris: almost three times more flights per day to GRU than to EZE from both of these cities... and way more than to SCL.

Furthermore, when discussing Argentina or Chile flights, we are only talking essentially about one airport in both countries; EZE and SCL. In Brazil, you have both GIG and GRU that receive daily European flights, not to mention about nine other Brazilian airports that have direct flights to Europe. So your MAD-GRU vs MAD-EZE comparison is erroneous, it should really be MAD-BRAZIL and MAD-ARGENTINA...

And why do you focus on GRU? Obviously GRU is not a top tourist destination, but it is the number one business destination in Latin America. However GIG is a top tourist destination... And I don't think Rio needs any "bump" from the Olympics being the city that hosts the biggest party on the planet... Carnaval! In addition to being IMHO the most beautiful city setting in the world...

But have you ever been to SCL? Your comment seems to suggest that SCL is a tourist destination in itself whereas GRU is not... Huh? There is absolutely nothing to see or do in SCL... To borrow form Alice B Toklas, there is no there there!!! I would much prefer to spend a few tourist days in GRU than in SCL due to the former's world class museums, vibrant restaurant and nightlife scene.

Don't get me wrong, I love traveling to Chile and to Argentina, as well as to Brazil...(in fact I just got back a few days ago from both GRU and EZE), but Brazil is the real market for European travel (and vice versa - more Brazilians traveling to Europe than Chileans AND Argentinians combined)... Hence I find it odd Norwegian is not opening Brazil.

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