http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/westjet ... -1.3830600

Some interesting tidbits:

"We don't believe the 767 is the problem, said Saresky. "And as soon as we get the last of the reliability issues behind us, we think it might make sense to add more 767s to our fleet. They're very low capital cost, and in a low fuel cost environment they actually generate good return for us."

Saretsky said that the existing jets have a further life span of five years, at most, and that WestJet intends to eventually flip the wide-bodied fleet to new or gently used jets.
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The airline said that was its second-best quarterly profit ever as capacity grew by 10.6 per cent and the airline's load factor — the percentage of seats filled — rose to 84 per cent from 81.8 per cent a year earlier.
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Expanding the fleet is dependent on coming to an agreement with cabin crew about operating the new aircraft.

Saretsky said on the conference call that the airline came to a tentative agreement with pilots on October 30th, which needs to be ratified by the pilot group.

"As soon as we know the outcome of that vote, we'll be in a better position to talk about the what the future of wide-bodied at WestJet looks like."

There are lots of second hand a330s in good shape up for grabs. Those would be ideal for what they need. I don't understand why they're so obsessed with Boeing.

767s are cheaper with enough range for whar WS needs, at least for the next 5 years it doesn't seem like they'll be flying anywhere outside of the range of a 767.

VCEflyboy wrote:

There are lots of second hand a330s in good shape up for grabs. Those would be ideal for what they need. I don't understand why they're so obsessed with Boeing.

Crew training, cockpit and maintenance commonality would be a biggie.

Agreed! Many here in Vancouver feel the 767 is a plane to be avoided simply because all the of the bad press WestJet received. Some A330's would create a lot of much needed confidence in WestJet's long haul efforts moving forward.

ACCS300 wrote:

Agreed! Many here in Vancouver feel the 767 is a plane to be avoided simply because all the of the bad press WestJet received. Some A330's would create a lot of much needed confidence in WestJet's long haul efforts moving forward.

I doubt that many potential passengers know the difference between a 767 and an A330.

Getting more 25-year old 767s is not the solution...

I suspect Boeing will go to great efforts to keep WS all-Boeing. After all, Boeing supplied their current ex-Qantas 767s. I'd be very surprised if WS went for the A330, much as I would enjoy that. So, if they went for a new plane, I'm pretty sure they would be 789s. But… if they went for "gently used", what could those possibly be? I doubt there's many gently used 767s out there, and the 787 is too new for anybody to be selling them, surely. So… what then? The only Being option left would be the 777. Could WS actually make use of a plane that big? I wonder.

BenTheGreat97 wrote:

VCEflyboy wrote:

There are lots of second hand a330s in good shape up for grabs. Those would be ideal for what they need. I don't understand why they're so obsessed with Boeing.

Crew training, cockpit and maintenance commonality would be a biggie.

The 767 is out of production for years. Maintenance is not a walk in the park.
All the other savings that you allege have been largely offset by the money lost both in terms of service disruption and overall image. Keep in mind before the cancellation spree Westjet had a pristine image.

AC has signaled they want to get rid of their a330s which means lots of a330s and a330 pilots waiting to find a new home.

VCEflyboy wrote:

The 767 is out of production for years.

Somebody inform Boeing!

Polot wrote:

VCEflyboy wrote:

The 767 is out of production for years.

Somebody inform Boeing!

The last production passenger 767 delivered in June 2014 (ln 1068 for Air Astana), and they are pumping out many freighter versions for FedEx (they latest one ferried to MEM on Nov.1, 2016) and military versions for the US Air Force. The 767 is far from dead.

I believe it has been stated here before that Boeing is not actively trying to sell the 767 anymore, pushing the 787 instead.

canadianpylon wrote:

Polot wrote:

VCEflyboy wrote:

The 767 is out of production for years.

Somebody inform Boeing!

The last production passenger 767 delivered in June 2014 (ln 1068 for Air Astana), and they are pumping out many freighter versions for FedEx (they latest one ferried to MEM on Nov.1, 2016) and military versions for the US Air Force. The 767 is far from dead.

I believe it has been stated here before that Boeing is not actively trying to sell the 767 anymore, pushing the 787 instead.

Indeed.

Any maintenance issues with the 767 is as a result of the age of the airframe selected. Getting parts for the 767 is not really any more difficult/expensive than getting parts for the A330.

VCEflyboy wrote:

There are lots of second hand a330s in good shape up for grabs. Those would be ideal for what they need. I don't understand why they're so obsessed with Boeing.

The 767-300 is quite a bit less of a capacity risk than the A330-200 and still burns somewhat less fuel per trip than the A330 as well. Couple that with attractive acquisition costs for frames with several years left in them and I think the value proposition is pretty clear. If the choice were as obvious as you seem to think it is, Delta would have parked its large fleet of 767-300ERs already in favor of the pre-owned A330s available.

I think the boss is quite right here, 767s, in themselves, are not the issue. Norwegian had comparable issues with the brand-new 787s. Its familiarity with he frame and sensible scheduling that make the difference. Like-for like the 767 should be a better experience than the 787 with its 2-3-2, 7 arrest layout Vs narrower 3-3-3 on the 787. Maybe more sensible scheduling with more downtime in the schedule, a rolling back-up option might be more achievable with low-capital costs 767s than with new 787s.

PTYtoDCA wrote:

767s are cheaper with enough range for whar WS needs, at least for the next 5 years it doesn't seem like they'll be flying anywhere outside of the range of a 767.

Agreed. WestJet needs to get the service profitable and then crunch the numbers. The reality is that continued 787 production, ramping up A350 production, and soon A330NEO production will drive down the price of new and used widebodies. By 2019 Boeing and Airbus will negotiate more. So if WestJet wants new, they should wait. 767 resale values are approaching scrap/parts value. There is little risk continuing their strategy for 2 more years.

Lightsaber

VCEflyboy wrote:

BenTheGreat97 wrote:

VCEflyboy wrote:

There are lots of second hand a330s in good shape up for grabs. Those would be ideal for what they need. I don't understand why they're so obsessed with Boeing.

Crew training, cockpit and maintenance commonality would be a biggie.

The 767 is out of production for years. Maintenance is not a walk in the park.
All the other savings that you allege have been largely offset by the money lost both in terms of service disruption and overall image. Keep in mind before the cancellation spree Westjet had a pristine image.

AC has signaled they want to get rid of their a330s which means lots of a330s and a330 pilots waiting to find a new home.

VCE..I cannot quite understand where you get your information from and how you generate those assumptions. AC is presently investing a lot of $$ reconfiguring the 330s with new interiors and Y+ seats. There is no indication that they are willing to let go of the 330s. If you are referring to their 'flex capacity', then that would only be the case for capacity shedding in the event of a downturn.

Why would an Air Canada pilot drop his seniority, pension and compensation to accept less at WestJet? Does that make any sense to you? FYI, a pilot can easily switch to the 787/777 in an intensive 2 month training course.

There were some rumblings a few months ago, that if the 767 experiment went well that WS would look into the 787. Todays statement seems to hint that if that decision were to be made, it won't be for sometime and that they would rather keep capitol investment low and take advantage of low fuel prices with seemingly more 767s. I gotta think thats the wrong move given that fuel is inevitably going to go up again and 20+ year old aircraft have a delicate service reliability.

lightsaber wrote:

PTYtoDCA wrote:

767s are cheaper with enough range for whar WS needs, at least for the next 5 years it doesn't seem like they'll be flying anywhere outside of the range of a 767.

Agreed. WestJet needs to get the service profitable and then crunch the numbers. The reality is that continued 787 production, ramping up A350 production, and soon A330NEO production will drive down the price of new and used widebodies. By 2019 Boeing and Airbus will negotiate more. So if WestJet wants new, they should wait. 767 resale values are approaching scrap/parts value. There is little risk continuing their strategy for 2 more years.

Lightsaber

767-300ER values are not approaching scrap. They are actually going up because there is a massive surge of freighter conversions going on. Amazon is sourcing over 40 767s and other airlines are converting them to freighters. If you add in the life extensions going on at AA, DL and UA, the 767 used prices are about 5-10 times scrap value. 767-200s and non ER 767-300s are at scrap value, but even an early 1990s build 767-300ER will find a home. There are not many parked right now that aren't waiting a freighter conversion if they have the correct engines.

RL777 wrote:

There were some rumblings a few months ago, that if the 767 experiment went well that WS would look into the 787. Todays statement seems to hint that if that decision were to be made, it won't be for sometime and that they would rather keep capitol investment low and take advantage of low fuel prices with seemingly more 767s. I gotta think thats the wrong move given that fuel is inevitably going to go up again and 20+ year old aircraft have a delicate service reliability.

That's what I thought last year, but it seems that the global cartel market model is broken. Some analyst are even calling for the WTI to be 65$ for 2020 at most. Ouch!

I think Lightsaber is right. The 767s are low risk, and therefore they can continue the status quo. Perhaps more EU leisure destinations? Highly doubt Saretsky can fulfill his Asian aspirations any time soon.

Earnings were up but margins were compressed. West jet has not fully released the results of their overseas operations. The Q3 report only included "transborder & international results" combined. I'll try to get the RBC Q3 report on wja when it's released. TD downgraded the stock to a hold despite positive earnings.

1900Driver wrote:

RL777 wrote:

There were some rumblings a few months ago, that if the 767 experiment went well that WS would look into the 787. Todays statement seems to hint that if that decision were to be made, it won't be for sometime and that they would rather keep capitol investment low and take advantage of low fuel prices with seemingly more 767s. I gotta think thats the wrong move given that fuel is inevitably going to go up again and 20+ year old aircraft have a delicate service reliability.

That's what I thought last year, but it seems that the global cartel market model is broken. Some analyst are even calling for the WTI to be 65$ for 2020 at most. Ouch!

I think Lightsaber is right. The 767s are low risk, and therefore they can continue the status quo. Perhaps more EU leisure destinations? Highly doubt Saretsky can fulfill his Asian aspirations any time soon.

Earnings were up but margins were compressed. West jet has not fully released the results of their overseas operations. The Q3 report only included "transborder & international results" combined. I'll try to get the RBC Q3 report on wja when it's released. TD downgraded the stock to a hold despite positive earnings.

The 2020 WTI outlook sure is interesting, if that does hold true then yes the 767s would be a fairly low risk investment. I don't see how WS could compete in the Asia segment right now given how cheap AC Y fares are on routes to HKG and PEK. That along with more & more Chinese carriers starting services to Canada makes it a tough segment to enter.

RalXWB wrote:

Getting more 25-year old 767s is not the solution...

Why not? Seemed to work quite well for them expanding with 737-200s. WS is still very new to the long haul market, they're still in the development stage, it would make more sense for them to experiment and expand with low capital costs and eventually go into newer aircraft once they've established themselves in the new market.

In 3-4 years time airlines like Qatar could be looking at disposing of their 788's in favour of 789's. For Boeing, this could represent an opportunity to sell more 789's through a 788 buy back arrangement, whilst at the same time allowing Boeing to develop a second hand market for the 787.

Westjet could take full advantage of such a situation.

I can see WestJet investing in NEW widebody planes in the future. Heck I can see them flying 777.

Indicating that they will get some more gently used 767's is a ploy to get a better price from Boeing. One, two of there current 767's are leased - short term. secondly, they bad mouthed Boeing on the work they did on the current fleet.

If there where gentle used A330's out there Delta would be sniffing.

1900Driver wrote:

VCEflyboy wrote:

BenTheGreat97 wrote:

Crew training, cockpit and maintenance commonality would be a biggie.

The 767 is out of production for years. Maintenance is not a walk in the park.
All the other savings that you allege have been largely offset by the money lost both in terms of service disruption and overall image. Keep in mind before the cancellation spree Westjet had a pristine image.

AC has signaled they want to get rid of their a330s which means lots of a330s and a330 pilots waiting to find a new home.

VCE..I cannot quite understand where you get your information from and how you generate those assumptions. AC is presently investing a lot of $$ reconfiguring the 330s with new interiors and Y+ seats. There is no indication that they are willing to let go of the 330s. If you are referring to their 'flex capacity', then that would only be the case for capacity shedding in the event of a downturn.

Why would an Air Canada pilot drop his seniority, pension and compensation to accept less at WestJet? Does that make any sense to you? FYI, a pilot can easily switch to the 787/777 in an intensive 2 month training course.

Well pardon my assumption but with brand new 77Ws and 787s coming in every other week and a330 orders totaling 0 I believe it's a fair assumption that the a330 is on the way out. Now if they are being refurbished the only use I can see is maybe a small subfleet based at YUL but even that won't last long.
About your symposium on pilot seniority, wait until AC gets bought by the Chinese and let's see about that..

767 is perfect for WestJet. They can source it from many airlines retiring their older 763s. QANTAS, American, Delta, JAL, etc. all have well maintained fleet of 767 that they are getting rid of. Getting more 767 gives them more flexibility in dispatching their fleet to handle outages too. I honestly don't understand why they keep having maintenance issues with the 767. Many airlines are operating very old 767 and I never heard them having problems with them. 767 would allow them to fly to anywhere in Europe from Eastern Canada and fly to all meaningful European destinations from Vancouver and Calgary. It also allows them to fly to Japan and Korea from Vancouver if they desire. May be 5 years from now, they can start to get 2nd hand 777-200ER for further expansion in both capacity and range.

VCEflyboy wrote:

1900Driver wrote:

VCEflyboy wrote:

The 767 is out of production for years. Maintenance is not a walk in the park.
All the other savings that you allege have been largely offset by the money lost both in terms of service disruption and overall image. Keep in mind before the cancellation spree Westjet had a pristine image.

AC has signaled they want to get rid of their a330s which means lots of a330s and a330 pilots waiting to find a new home.

VCE..I cannot quite understand where you get your information from and how you generate those assumptions. AC is presently investing a lot of $$ reconfiguring the 330s with new interiors and Y+ seats. There is no indication that they are willing to let go of the 330s. If you are referring to their 'flex capacity', then that would only be the case for capacity shedding in the event of a downturn.

Why would an Air Canada pilot drop his seniority, pension and compensation to accept less at WestJet? Does that make any sense to you? FYI, a pilot can easily switch to the 787/777 in an intensive 2 month training course.

Well pardon my assumption but with brand new 77Ws and 787s coming in every other week and a330 orders totaling 0 I believe it's a fair assumption that the a330 is on the way out. Now if they are being refurbished the only use I can see is maybe a small subfleet based at YUL but even that won't last long.
About your symposium on pilot seniority, wait until AC gets bought by the Chinese and let's see about that..

So just because an airline isn't ordering them anymore must mean they're about to be shipped out? And also, the a330 subfleet IS based out of YUL, and has been for years. I'd even go as far as saying that they will only be based out of YUL until they're retired. Sure they find their way around the country's network, but all the pilots for it are based out of YUL. And what the hell do the Chinese have to do with this?

Beatyair wrote:

Indicating that they will get some more gently used 767's is a ploy to get a better price from Boeing. One, two of there current 767's are leased - short term. secondly, they bad mouthed Boeing on the work they did on the current fleet.

If there where gentle used A330's out there Delta would be sniffing.

All 4 B763s at WS were purchased not leased....

The article shows what has already been reported on this site. Westjet is aware that it is them, not the 767 and additional time/experience will be the key ingredient.

A member on here stated a while back that for whatever reason, the 767 was proving to be a steep learning curve for the crews and maintenance personnel. That many of the "issues" causing delays would not have been a problem at carriers like United/Delta/Air Canada where the company has a collective knowledge base on the type.

CX747 wrote:

The article shows what has already been reported on this site. Westjet is aware that it is them, not the 767 and additional time/experience will be the key ingredient.

A member on here stated a while back that for whatever reason, the 767 was proving to be a steep learning curve for the crews and maintenance personnel. That many of the "issues" causing delays would not have been a problem at carriers like United/Delta/Air Canada where the company has a collective knowledge base on the type.

Westjet is a relatively young airline with a lean engineering department. The 737 is a workhorse airplane with stellar reliability. Widebodies are more complex to operate. I am sure Boeing provided good support for the transition, but there is a learning curve. Airlines like Air Canada have large and robust engineering departments with more experience and resources at their disposal. I am sure acquiring additional 767s would be much easier for them. Switching to used A330s would be foolish and throw away all that experience and have them start over again. Airbus doesn't have onsite support to help them in western Canada and usually an airline starting off with a few used planes doesn't get the type of OEM support that airlines actively buying new planes get. Sticking with 767s while the airline becomes more familiar with widebody intercontinental operations is a pretty good idea. Used 767s aren't the easiest airplane to integrate into a fleet but probably easier than going straight to a brand new 787. If the financials work with widebody operations, I can see Westjet ordering new 787s or A330neos, but for now continuing with 767s makes sense.

VCEflyboy wrote:

1900Driver wrote:

VCEflyboy wrote:

The 767 is out of production for years. Maintenance is not a walk in the park.
All the other savings that you allege have been largely offset by the money lost both in terms of service disruption and overall image. Keep in mind before the cancellation spree Westjet had a pristine image.

AC has signaled they want to get rid of their a330s which means lots of a330s and a330 pilots waiting to find a new home.

VCE..I cannot quite understand where you get your information from and how you generate those assumptions. AC is presently investing a lot of $$ reconfiguring the 330s with new interiors and Y+ seats. There is no indication that they are willing to let go of the 330s. If you are referring to their 'flex capacity', then that would only be the case for capacity shedding in the event of a downturn.

Why would an Air Canada pilot drop his seniority, pension and compensation to accept less at WestJet? Does that make any sense to you? FYI, a pilot can easily switch to the 787/777 in an intensive 2 month training course.

Well pardon my assumption but with brand new 77Ws and 787s coming in every other week and a330 orders totaling 0 I believe it's a fair assumption that the a330 is on the way out. Now if they are being refurbished the only use I can see is maybe a small subfleet based at YUL but even that won't last long.
About your symposium on pilot seniority, wait until AC gets bought by the Chinese and let's see about that..

Ok...

VCE, you should be a little more humble when you post on this forum. Your info is a little off & assumptions are way too assertive. Perhaps a little bit of modesty would suit you well. Just a tip..

Refurbishing an aircraft with new J, Y+ & Y is expensive! The 330s are here to stay as a sub base in YUL (and a brilliant strategy for the YUL euro market). If anything 767 will be the first to go.

Do you sincerely believe that a Chinese carrier can circumvent Canadian law & disband a union? Have you not seen the foreign ownership cap press release recently?

Btw...If a Chinese carrier wants to buy AC then I would say yes! Full disclosure, I own quite a bit of shares that I purchased in 2012. If they want to give me 20$ a share, then I will even help them certify that the company has good Feng shui! lol

I am sure boeing would be more than willing to build new 767-300ER'S for Westjet

I totally understand the 767 provides the right costs, risk, capasity-range trade-off for this airline.

It's less capable and way lighter than a A330, fits more gates on medium airports and uses similar GE, PW and RR engines.

Surplus components and engines all over the place reduces costs.

1900Driver wrote:

it seems that the global cartel market model is broken. Some analyst are even calling for the WTI to be 65$ for 2020 at most. Ouch!

Hydraulic fracturing (fracking) and Canadian oil sands production are part of what broke the cartel market. $65/bbl is probably profitable for both of those production sources and there's a lot of capacity which could come online for both.

Beatyair wrote:

Indicating that they will get some more gently used 767's is a ploy to get a better price from Boeing.

Doubtful IMO, especially given that Airbus would likely be willing to give them a decent price on new A330s given the opportunity. No, I expect that this is signaling to investors that they are being judicious with capital in order to maintain WS's attractive ROIC.

keesje wrote:

I totally understand the 767 provides the right costs, risk, capasity-range trade-off for this airline.

It's less capable and way lighter than a A330, fits more gates on medium airports and uses similar GE, PW and RR engines.

Surplus components and engines all over the place reduces costs.

Not just that but quite a few vendors for heavy maintenance including their friends down in Atlanta. The 767s can fly pretty much all the Europe routes WS is likely to want to try for the next several years and can also manage YVR-TYO/KIX/ICN/PEK. If you don't need the additional capacity offered by the A330, the 767 is a good choice.

Six Hawaiian 763ERs will be exiting the fleet on their third D check, three of which are BCC leases. Amazon and WestJet would be interested/likely counter-parties.

Funny nobody is talking about the tentative deal with the pilot group. Which in itself is quite odd. The Westjet pilot and FA group are not too happy. The pilots are in talks with ALPA for union representation.

The previous attempt the pilots made at moving to union representation from their in-house Association failed by the narrowest of margins. With international growth on the horizon the pilots don't want to be left behind in terms of pay.

The bait and switch is on, something Saretsky has been good at. With another union certification drive on the near horizon Saretsky hopes dangling the carrot of big airplanes (and the threat to not buy them if he doesn't get his way) will again stave off certification of his most important employee group. He knows that if the pilots go the FAs will be right behind them.

There's a lot going on over at Teal Towers. It's going to be interesting to see what unfolds.

sixtyseven wrote:

Funny nobody is talking about the tentative deal with the pilot group. Which in itself is quite odd. The Westjet pilot and FA group are not too happy. The pilots are in talks with ALPA for union representation.

The previous attempt the pilots made at moving to union representation from their in-house Association failed by the narrowest of margins. With international growth on the horizon the pilots don't want to be left behind in terms of pay.

The bait and switch is on, something Saretsky has been good at. With another union certification drive on the near horizon Saretsky hopes dangling the carrot of big airplanes (and the threat to not buy them if he doesn't get his way) will again stave off certification of his most important employee group. He knows that if the pilots go the FAs will be right behind them.

There's a lot going on over at Teal Towers. It's going to be interesting to see what unfolds.

I've been wondering if someone (with some knowledge) would comment on the pilot group deal situation. I've been very curious about this. I wonder what sort of a tentative deal Saretsky is speaking of, and is it tentative because the pilots won't commit, or because management won't commit… or both?

aerolimani wrote:

sixtyseven wrote:

Funny nobody is talking about the tentative deal with the pilot group. Which in itself is quite odd. The Westjet pilot and FA group are not too happy. The pilots are in talks with ALPA for union representation.

The previous attempt the pilots made at moving to union representation from their in-house Association failed by the narrowest of margins. With international growth on the horizon the pilots don't want to be left behind in terms of pay.

The bait and switch is on, something Saretsky has been good at. With another union certification drive on the near horizon Saretsky hopes dangling the carrot of big airplanes (and the threat to not buy them if he doesn't get his way) will again stave off certification of his most important employee group. He knows that if the pilots go the FAs will be right behind them.

There's a lot going on over at Teal Towers. It's going to be interesting to see what unfolds.

I've been wondering if someone (with some knowledge) would comment on the pilot group deal situation. I've been very curious about this. I wonder what sort of a tentative deal Saretsky is speaking of, and is it tentative because the pilots won't commit, or because management won't commit… or both?

It's a tentative deal because it has to be presented to the employees and then voted on just like any other company/employee deals at various companies.....both negotiating parties have an agreement but the pilots have the final say with a vote!

Yes tentative. I just laugh at the timing, right as the pilots near another certification vote. Well played by management. When the employees voted massively in favour of Encore I asked myself had they voted it down would Encore never happened? Yeah right. Now I'm sure Encore is doing great for the company it's existence has caused a lot of anger amongst the junior 1/3 of the pilot group due to a strange flow thru system.

Like I said it'll be interesting for sure.

But make one thing clear. Until the pilots certify they won't have the final say in anything. The company will. Just so happens that the pilots have always tended to go the way of management. Things have changed there and I'm not sure the pilot group is willing to keep dancing to that tune.

sixtyseven wrote:

Yes tentative. I just laugh at the timing, right as the pilots near another certification vote. Well played by management. When the employees voted massively in favour of Encore I asked myself had they voted it down would Encore never happened? Yeah right. Now I'm sure Encore is doing great for the company it's existence has caused a lot of anger amongst the junior 1/3 of the pilot group due to a strange flow thru system.

Like I said it'll be interesting for sure.

But make one thing clear. Until the pilots certify they won't have the final say in anything. The company will. Just so happens that the pilots have always tended to go the way of management. Things have changed there and I'm not sure the pilot group is willing to keep dancing to that tune.

It has nothing to do with any certification drive, it's about expansion of the widebody flying. The current trial agreement is limited to 4 aircraft, it needs to change before any expansion happens.

Not sure where you get your facts about the Encore flow through from but it's incorrect. 90+% voted in favor of the flow agreement and one list.....the comment about the bottom 1/3 of pilot being angered is far from the truth!

Really. You don't think the timing of a possible expansion of widebody flying while a certification drive is underway odd?

The bottom 1/3 of the pilot group is not happy there. 90% voted in favour of Encore and a pile of those wish they hadn't (it would have happened anyways).

Pilots have to realize. The company will buy the airplanes if there's a case for it. However the company will leverage that against the pilots hopes and wishes. Which is advancement and pay. Of which there is no advancement at WJ right now because there is no expansion or retirements.

The time to a left seat is the longest in its history. And with a step back pay system when upgrading it's not much of a raise. Plus guys get hired off the street then some Encore guy comes ahead of him when he's moves to the mainline.

It's the worst it's ever been there which means interesting times lay ahead. The kool aid types will be slurping at their straws madly with the rumours of widebody orders.

sixtyseven wrote:

Really. You don't think the timing of a possible expansion of widebody flying while a certification drive is underway odd?

The bottom 1/3 of the pilot group is not happy there. 90% voted in favour of Encore and a pile of those wish they hadn't (it would have happened anyways).

Pilots have to realize. The company will buy the airplanes if there's a case for it. However the company will leverage that against the pilots hopes and wishes. Which is advancement and pay. Of which there is no advancement at WJ right now because there is no expansion or retirements.

The time to a left seat is the longest in its history. And with a step back pay system when upgrading it's not much of a raise. Plus guys get hired off the street then some Encore guy comes ahead of him when he's moves to the mainline.

It's the worst it's ever been there which means interesting times lay ahead. The kool aid types will be slurping at their straws madly with the rumours of widebody orders.

No I don't! The agreement had to be expanded so the widebody flying can be expanded. They can buy all the planes they want but without an agreement who's going to fly them....

It's funny you say the bottom third of the pilot group is angry because of Encore flow.....the bottom third of the group IS Encore, have flowed from Encore, or been hired with the full knowledge that Encore pilots are ahead on the list....

Who's going to fly them??? A great question. The answer is WestJet pilots, without doubt. What Saretsky is creating is a moment of doubt. As he should.

But WJ pilots have to realize; he will buy the airplanes if the business model requires it. His pilots will fly them or else they will sewer the place. A fine balance for sure with both sides posturing.

Labour relations between pilots and management have never been worse. No better tactic to swing the undecided/timid individual than dangling the further order of big, shiny new metal.

The fact that a deal was required is true. Yet it was authored by the in house WJPPA. Aka his puppets. And it has been noticed by the malcontents.

There has been a tidal shift in the expectations of the comparable AC v WJ pilot within the last two years. The latest equipment bid shows direct entry EMJ captains and Mainline 320 captains with less than 4 YOS.

WJPPA may present similar pay rates to AC and TS for similar types but one must look at the myriad of career routes an AC pilot has at his/her disposal for equipment/pay/lifestyle and realize comparing oneself to Rouge only is silly. It is limiting the comparison. The career pathways are less and should afford themselves to a bigger rate of compensation without being myopic and compare themselves to only a sliver.

But that will be seen. What year was the last 4 year upgrade at WestJet btw??

And more importantly, how do you make it happen again? Expansion. But at what cost? To a group with no pension- at one point a factor to their edge over AC.

They will fly the jets. Which will come no doubt. But at what savings will fear bring for Gregg a quick, cheap deal?? Remains to be seen

There had been some talk that they might take NZ's final 3x 763 which are due to leave by March 17.

sixtyseven wrote:

Who's going to fly them??? A great question. The answer is WestJet pilots, without doubt. What Saretsky is creating is a moment of doubt. As he should.

But WJ pilots have to realize; he will buy the airplanes if the business model requires it. His pilots will fly them or else they will sewer the place. A fine balance for sure with both sides posturing.

Labour relations between pilots and management have never been worse. No better tactic to swing the undecided/timid individual than dangling the further order of big, shiny new metal.

The fact that a deal was required is true. Yet it was authored by the in house WJPPA. Aka his puppets. And it has been noticed by the malcontents.

There has been a tidal shift in the expectations of the comparable AC v WJ pilot within the last two years. The latest equipment bid shows direct entry EMJ captains and Mainline 320 captains with less than 4 YOS.

WJPPA may present similar pay rates to AC and TS for similar types but one must look at the myriad of career routes an AC pilot has at his/her disposal for equipment/pay/lifestyle and realize comparing oneself to Rouge only is silly. It is limiting the comparison. The career pathways are less and should afford themselves to a bigger rate of compensation without being myopic and compare themselves to only a sliver.

But that will be seen. What year was the last 4 year upgrade at WestJet btw??

And more importantly, how do you make it happen again? Expansion. But at what cost? To a group with no pension- at one point a factor to their edge over AC.

They will fly the jets. Which will come no doubt. But at what savings will fear bring for Gregg a quick, cheap deal?? Remains to be seen

Ha, you seem to have it all figured out.....

Whiteguy wrote:

Ha, you seem to have it all figured out.....

Maybe he does, maybe he doesn't.

But there are only so many times one can see the performance, before one looks up at the stage and thinks, "Haven't I seen this skit before?". It becomes even more apparent, when one sees it played on someone else's stage.

Westjet is a well run airline. If they see a case for more widebody equipment, they will acquire more. It is very suspicious when that decision is predicated on pilot agreements, when pilot costs are a very narrow slice of a very narrow component of the cost pie. In this case, it almost looks like during the threat of union representation, the promise of more widebody aircraft is raised.

But, is union represenation all that bad? Last quarter results showed Air Canada's costs the same as Westjet. To me, that was astounding. (I know there are caveats ... stage length, etc ... but to even have it close, is amazing). Air Canada, a heavily unionized airline.

longhauler wrote:

But, is union represenation all that bad? Last quarter results showed Air Canada's costs the same as Westjet. To me, that was astounding. (I know there are caveats ... stage length, etc ... but to even have it close, is amazing). Air Canada, a heavily unionized airline.

Stage length (and AC's large W/B fleet) are huge caveats, making AC vs WJ unit cost comparisons impossible.

We will never see it, but the best unit cost comparison between AC and WJ would be a unit cost comparison between their similar fleet types that make up the largest component of their fleets, that is AC 32x cost vs WJ NG cost, but of course this is never released (by either party, let alone both).

yyz717 wrote:

Stage length (and AC's large W/B fleet) are huge caveats, making AC vs WJ unit cost comparisons impossible.

You are right. But I seem to recall a reference during the last six months that stated AC's narrow body CASM was the same as WS, and thus, by extension, RV was even less. I can't recall if it was an AC announcement, or a WS note to their employees warning "the gap" no longer existed as they were talking union representaton.

But in reality .... 5 years ago, did you ever think you and I would be discussing that AC and WS had the same CASM, using any metric???

Sticking with 767s while the airline becomes more familiar with widebody intercontinental operations is a pretty good idea. Used 767s aren't the easiest airplane to integrate into a fleet but probably easier than going straight to a brand new 787. If the financials work with widebody operations, I can see Westjet ordering new 787s or A330neos, but for now continuing with 767s makes sense.

I'm a total 767 fan boy so please be gentle. If Westjet is enamored with the 767, and the KC tanker assembly line is still open, might Boeing attempt to make a sweetheart deal in the near future and roll a few new passenger versions off of the line for them? The 767's inefficiencies and fuel burn might be offset the lower acquisition price. Toss in the commonality and crew training issues that have already been mentioned and there might just barely be an outside chance of this. I'm not sure that this is altogether dissimilar to UPS wanting the 748 and Boeing being only more than happy to make the sale.

Anyway, it's a dream that a guy who loves seeing older birds plying the skies can have.

Bob