Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR


Air France -- Launch Customer For B777-300X

Tue Aug 17, 1999 4:26 am

My topic is based on the Flight International Magazine article. The airline will potentially order up to 16 of the type to replace B747-100/200s, starting in Sep 2003. A blow to Airbus? I think yes and no. Yes because, AF will choose the type over the A340-600 and no because being an already a GE-90 customer, the order makes a lot of economic sense. I think, being an anti-RR airline, AF will only buy A340-500s when it will be offrered with an alternative engine....(i.e. a blown CFMI)
Posts: 713
Joined: Tue Mar 18, 2014 12:03 am

RE: Air France -- Launch Customer For B777-300X

Tue Aug 17, 1999 4:35 am

Don't you think that Air France could get Airbus to change that- like it did for the A-318's? I'm still confused about how this is not a blow to Airbus.
Posts: 393
Joined: Wed Apr 07, 2010 7:32 am

RE: Air France -- Launch Customer For B777-300X

Tue Aug 17, 1999 2:24 pm

AF's preference for 777-300X over the A340-600 may because of economics.
Posts: 878
Joined: Mon Jun 14, 1999 7:12 am

RE: Air France -- Launch Customer For B777-300X

Tue Aug 17, 1999 2:39 pm

AFR really needs to curtail the number of aircraft types in its fleet. Currently, there are:
737-200, -300, -500
A319, A320, A321
A310-200, -300
B767-300(2 engine types)
B747-100,-200, 300, 400

-A318s will replace the 737-200s. Ill bet the 733s will be returned to the lessors in favor of more A319s.

-The A310s and 767s will be replaced by a common type, either 767-400, or A330-200. Tough decision. The 332 will have better fleet commonality with the A343s, but in a sizeable order, this advantage is lost. An order for 15 a/c is expected. Perhaps Boeing will try to boost the 764 order log. cheap prices and quick availability are big plusses.

-More B772s are on order, and will replace the last of the 747-100s by the end of the year.

-The 773s/A346s would replace the 742s and 743s, and allow for growth. The GE90 would allow for 1 less engine type to be added, and a common type rating.
Overall, the 777-328X(ER?) seems like it will be a good idea for AFR. KLM is rumored to be very interested as well.

The 'new' fleet would contain 735, 318/319/320/321, 764 or 332, 772/773, 744. The number of main types will be reduced from 13 to 5. The number of engine types will be reduced from 11 to 5. All of this consolidation would seemingly improve efficiency, and therefore, profitability.
Posts: 603
Joined: Mon Aug 09, 1999 8:25 pm

RE: Air France -- Launch Customer For B777-300X

Tue Aug 17, 1999 7:13 pm

Hmm maybe I am wrong but weren't the first few (note I said first few for those of you who are eager to jump down people's throats) Airbus purchases by Air France more for politcal reasons for than economical reasons?



Wed Aug 18, 1999 12:43 am

Airbus or Boeing purchases are not political anymore among European Airlines (at least for most of them). Lufthansa is a private airline and still preferred Airbus predominently for their fleet. BA is the same preferring rather Boeing (until at least the big narrowbody order) eventhough British Aerospace is a major contributor to Airbus and finally Swissair which is both private and having nothing to do with the EU and Airbus will have an all Airbus fleet by 2002. Even though the French are accused of being anti-American I think they have a lot more merit than most American carriers which are subjectively Boeing oriented. Air France is not only a predominently government owned but also has been supportive of Airbus all along but this did not prevent them also being a big 777 customer.
Posts: 6703
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 2:54 am

RE: Pendora

Wed Aug 18, 1999 12:53 am

Thats a laugher. Most airline purchases in Europe are no longer political! I won't get into it because that is not the subject of the post. Air France is trying to privatize itself as we speak. As it privitizes it seems to be looking more and more at the 777 and not the homemade A340. Less government intervention? The BA order definately was for political and economical reasons.


Wed Aug 18, 1999 1:21 am

What about AA, DL, and CO? I think they have far less merit that AF. What does the fact that AF privatizing itself have to do with the airline purchasing 777? If there was a government intervention in BA's case why didn't it happen before?? I guess you had no comment on the Swissair and LH issues....perhaps you dont have a pro-Boeing argument for it....
Posts: 10109
Joined: Wed Aug 18, 1999 5:49 am

RE: Air France -- Launch Customer For B777-300X

Wed Aug 18, 1999 7:09 am

This is a very interesting question and unfortunately, it's impossible to discuss it without involving politics. An initial gut reaction would be that, NO WAY would they be allowed to and while I accept that AF is becoming more independent, there is more to it than that. This would be a French airline actually facilitating - as launch customer - the main competitor for a long range French aircraft. Ah, mon dieu!
It will be VERY interesting to watch this unfold. Don't be too surprised either if AF does go for the 340-600. It makes more sense for them to do so, being a well established 320 series/340 operator and the 340-5/600 will have as much range as AF needs. Wait and see!
Posts: 393
Joined: Wed Apr 07, 2010 7:32 am

Politics In Aviation

Wed Aug 18, 1999 2:18 pm

The recent China Airlines order for Airbus A340 and 330 is because of politics. Because US didn't want to help Taiwan if China and Taiwan start a war (until now and that's why China Airlines ordered some more 747s and 7378s).

I've just been to TATE 99 in Taipei, whether or not the above is the case, this is Taiwan's people's speculations, and CHina Airlines denided the claim however.
Posts: 10109
Joined: Wed Aug 18, 1999 5:49 am

RE: Air France -- Launch Customer For B777-300X

Wed Aug 18, 1999 8:46 pm

I'm afraid I have to disagree with Pandora. Firstly, it would be absolutely unfair to expect the US to go to war with China just for Taiwan (and by no means am I anti-Taiwan - quite the contrary in fact!). It has always been US policy to get Taiwan to keep quiet on the independence issue.
I would accept CAL's contention that there was no political interference from its government. The main reason for the A340 selection was that there would be no ETOPs restrictions; CAL has quite a big US network, which is obviously very important for its future growth. Anyway, Boeing didn't do badly with the biggest ever 744F order; if there was interference, why wasn't that order stopped?
Posts: 1077
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 1:52 am


Thu Aug 19, 1999 2:57 am

Good post. I like the thinking on the fleet planning. I would love to see the big 777-200X/-300X beasts!!! I would also like to see the 747-400X. There is just something about the looks and function of those birds which really sends me. I kind of like the look of the new A340-500/-600. They too look like they mean business.
Posts: 6703
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 2:54 am


Thu Aug 19, 1999 4:21 am

Well, the if you really want me explain what happened with Swissair and Lufthansa E-mail me and I will be happy to write back.


Thu Aug 19, 1999 4:36 am

Why don't you tell all of us right here so that everbody can learn?? That is the purpose of the forum. But if you absolutely want to e-mail do so --- [email protected]

Popular Searches On

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos