PanzerPowner
Topic Author
Posts: 488
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2016 11:19 pm

If An Aircraft Is En Route to a Nation That Breaks Out In War

Mon Nov 07, 2016 12:48 am

So what would happen if an aircraft was heading to a Nation that had broken out into war mid flight that would compromise the safety of the aircraft or passengers upon arrival or during arrival what would they do? Especially if the location is isolated from other nations say in the middle of an ocean and any other nations that are considered "Safe would be too far away.
Well uh, I obviously decided to refine this but i dont know how.
 
blueflyer
Posts: 4256
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 4:17 am

Re: If An Aircraft Is En Route to a Nation That Breaks Out In War

Mon Nov 07, 2016 12:56 am

The plane lands and is immediately blown up by whoever is trying to take control of the airport, and everyone dies. End of story.
Corona is God’s punishment for the amoral, principles-free, holier-than-thou Evangelicals. The rest of us are just collateral damage
 
User avatar
TWA772LR
Posts: 7057
Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2011 6:12 am

Re: If An Aircraft Is En Route to a Nation That Breaks Out In War

Mon Nov 07, 2016 1:03 am

I guess it'd depend on if the plane is within the country's airspace or not, and if it's that nations airline or flagged to the nation at war.
When wasn't America great?


The thoughts and opinions shared under this username are mine and are not influenced by my employer.
 
masgniw
Posts: 559
Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2015 6:14 pm

Re: If An Aircraft Is En Route to a Nation That Breaks Out In War

Mon Nov 07, 2016 1:04 am

We can look back to recent memory during the coup attempt in Turkey. Many planes simply turned around, while others land at nearby alternatives that are already on file for diversions or weather problems.
 
Newbiepilot
Posts: 3640
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2016 10:18 pm

Re: If An Aircraft Is En Route to a Nation That Breaks Out In War

Mon Nov 07, 2016 1:07 am

World events don't usually happen quick enough so that every airport in diversion range would be a concern.

However certain events happen that cause airplanes to divert. If you look at Istanbul's recent crisis, many flights turned back to where they originated. Others diverted to other airports. We have seen political events takeover airports in the past. Usually a whole war does not develop while enroute.
 
aviatorcraig
Posts: 560
Joined: Sun Mar 21, 2010 12:14 pm

Re: If An Aircraft Is En Route to a Nation That Breaks Out In War

Mon Nov 07, 2016 1:10 am

blueflyer wrote:
The plane lands and is immediately blown up by whoever is trying to take control of the airport, and everyone dies. End of story.


Not always. On the day that Gulf War one started in 1990, a 747-100 (G-AWND) of British Airways flying from LHR to KWI touched down in Kuwait shortly after the invading Iraqi army had captured the airport. The passengers and crew were immediately taken hostage by the Iraqi forces and were later to be used as 'human shields' in an attempt to at deter coalition bombing of strategically important sites.
The passengers and crew saw out the war as captives of the Iraqi state and were released as part of the surrender terms months later. The plane faired less well - it was blown up by the retreating Iraqi army as they were driven out of Kuwait.
707 727 Caravelle Comet Concorde Dash-7 DC-9 DC-10 One-Eleven Trident Tristar Tu-134 VC-10 Viscount plus boring stuff!
 
c933103
Posts: 3962
Joined: Wed May 18, 2016 7:23 pm

Re: If An Aircraft Is En Route to a Nation That Breaks Out In War

Mon Nov 07, 2016 1:12 am

If you're flying to an airport like IPC and passed the point of no return and somehow a revolt happened there, continue the flight is probably still the safest thing to do.
What's the different between Russian settlement in secessionist territories in Caucasus/Eastern Europe, and historical Western settlement in colonial Africa?
 
VapourTrails
Posts: 3866
Joined: Fri Aug 17, 2001 9:30 pm

Re: If An Aircraft Is En Route to a Nation That Breaks Out In War

Mon Nov 07, 2016 1:41 am

Newbiepilot wrote:
World events don't usually happen quick enough so that every airport in diversion range would be a concern.

However certain events happen that cause airplanes to divert. If you look at Istanbul's recent crisis, many flights turned back to where they originated. Others diverted to other airports. We have seen political events takeover airports in the past. Usually a whole war does not develop while enroute.


Similarly, and not totally off-topic, I am currently third the way through a book written about the diversions and the entire closure of U.S. airspace in the hours after 9/11. It gives an insight into the logistics and the way thousands of people were accommodated in Gander, Newfoundland. Thankfully, as far as I am aware, no one was injured (or killed), and no aircraft was damaged during this whole diversion incident? There were 200+ aircraft with approx. 33,000 pax. in Canada alone. The author said that aircraft half way through the flight or closer to the US had to land at the nearest non-US destination. If they weren't half way through their journey, international flights could return to the country of origin.

aviatorcraig wrote:
Not always. On the day that Gulf War one started in 1990, a 747-100 (G-AWND) of British Airways flying from LHR to KWI touched down in Kuwait shortly after the invading Iraqi army had captured the airport. The passengers and crew were immediately taken hostage by the Iraqi forces and were later to be used as 'human shields' in an attempt to at deter coalition bombing of strategically important sites. The passengers and crew saw out the war as captives of the Iraqi state and were released as part of the surrender terms months later. The plane faired less well - it was blown up by the retreating Iraqi army as they were driven out of Kuwait.


Thanks for that. I am old enough to remember the Gulf War, but do not remember that detail. It makes the stranded and displaced people in the book I am reading seem like a picnic! (No disrespect intended).


Canadian Encyclopedia, 9/11 and Canada, article by Brian DuBreuil, published 01/15/15, http://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.ca/e ... a-and-911/
 
User avatar
KruegerFlaps
Posts: 251
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2016 6:17 am

Re: If An Aircraft Is En Route to a Nation That Breaks Out In War

Mon Nov 07, 2016 2:30 am

I guess it would depend on who the combatants are, whether the airline was from a friendly or neutral state, and whether the airspace is considered safe.

During the Second World War, Lufthansa was able to maintain scheduled services right up to late 1944 (and even beyond) to places like Malmö, Stockholm, Zürich, Barcelona, Madrid and Lisbon. All the these destinations were in neutral countries.
Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves. - William Pitt Speech, 1783
 
User avatar
ptharris
Posts: 265
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 12:58 pm

Re: If An Aircraft Is En Route to a Nation That Breaks Out In War

Mon Nov 07, 2016 2:30 am

blueflyer wrote:
The plane lands and is immediately blown up by whoever is trying to take control of the airport, and everyone dies. End of story.


Well, that escalated quickly.
If at first you don't succeed, skydiving isn't for you.
 
User avatar
thekorean
Posts: 1794
Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2011 9:05 pm

Re: If An Aircraft Is En Route to a Nation That Breaks Out In War

Mon Nov 07, 2016 2:34 am

I'd have to think at certain point airlines can see there is trouble brewing and withdraws before war starts.
 
IPFreely
Posts: 2541
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2006 8:26 am

Re: If An Aircraft Is En Route to a Nation That Breaks Out In War

Mon Nov 07, 2016 2:51 am

blueflyer wrote:
The plane lands and is immediately blown up by whoever is trying to take control of the airport, and everyone dies. End of story.


Not if Chuck Norris is on the plane.
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 6845
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: If An Aircraft Is En Route to a Nation That Breaks Out In War

Mon Nov 07, 2016 3:01 am

thekorean wrote:
I'd have to think at certain point airlines can see there is trouble brewing and withdraws before war starts.


Here's some detail on the flight pointed out by aviatorcraig above.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 37655.html
 
PanzerPowner
Topic Author
Posts: 488
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2016 11:19 pm

Re: If An Aircraft Is En Route to a Nation That Breaks Out In War

Mon Nov 07, 2016 5:07 am

So here is another part of the question, say the nation is in a remote area where all other airports within it's reserve fuel range are inside the nation of war. What does the crew do if they could have these options (just an assumption) A. Divert to an airport even though it would make no difference. B. Land at airport and repeat BA 149 C. Land at planned destination and do a BA 149. D. Pray to their religious deities to save them. E. Pray that the UN will stop condemning and do something useful.
Well uh, I obviously decided to refine this but i dont know how.
 
thepinkmachine
Posts: 409
Joined: Tue Apr 28, 2015 4:43 pm

Re: If An Aircraft Is En Route to a Nation That Breaks Out In War

Mon Nov 07, 2016 5:27 am

They do wahatever they think is most sensible under particular circumstances, including breaking any rules/laws if the situation requires it. There's no "one size fits all" solution.
"Tell my wife I am trawling Atlantis - and I still have my hands on the wheel…"
 
kabq737
Posts: 727
Joined: Wed Apr 15, 2015 3:06 am

Re: If An Aircraft Is En Route to a Nation That Breaks Out In War

Mon Nov 07, 2016 6:38 am

IPFreely wrote:
blueflyer wrote:
The plane lands and is immediately blown up by whoever is trying to take control of the airport, and everyone dies. End of story.


Not if Chuck Norris is on the plane.

Sir that is the best post I have ever read of yours! Thank you for the laugh!
Been on: 320, 321, 333, 733, 73G, 738, 739, 744, 752, 763, 764, 772, 789, C208, CR7, CR9, BE20, MD83, MD88, MD90, E70, E75, E90, TRIM
Flown: SEEKER, C150M C172N, C172R, C172S, C182RG, DA40, PA-46
 
CXfirst
Posts: 3022
Joined: Tue Jan 30, 2007 8:13 pm

Re: If An Aircraft Is En Route to a Nation That Breaks Out In War

Mon Nov 07, 2016 7:04 am

Wars tend not to break out without something brewing first.

Nowadays, almost all airlines have security departments, and if they continue flying somewhere with some state of unrest, they tend to hold enough fuel to do a last minute diversion.

For large scale organised wars that don't have much obvious tension ahead (such as an organised coup), the oppressing force don't tend to want to harm foreign citizens and airlines. They want control, and after that control, they tend to want to not have to fight a foreign force, just because they took some passengers hostage.
 
wj888
Posts: 35
Joined: Thu Jul 03, 2014 3:54 am

Re: If An Aircraft Is En Route to a Nation That Breaks Out In War

Mon Nov 07, 2016 7:43 am

Not a war exactly, but interesting nonetheless.

On the afternoon MH17 was shot down, EK had a flight en-route to KBP over Armenia (which is about 1/2 to 2/3 of the way to Ukraine), and they turned it around back to DXB. The route was suspended since, probably on cause of poor loads plus regional instability.
 
WIederling
Posts: 9293
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

Re: If An Aircraft Is En Route to a Nation That Breaks Out In War

Mon Nov 07, 2016 8:08 am

IPFreely wrote:
blueflyer wrote:
The plane lands and is immediately blown up by whoever is trying to take control of the airport, and everyone dies. End of story.


Not if Chuck Norris is on the plane.


Obviously. You can't turn Chuck Norris around.
So you would have to turn the world.. ( upside down?, mooting the conflict :-).

Ergo Chuck Norris is the Savior incarnate.
Murphy is an optimist
 
User avatar
BartSimpson
Posts: 634
Joined: Sat Mar 05, 2016 5:01 pm

Re: If An Aircraft Is En Route to a Nation That Breaks Out In War

Mon Nov 07, 2016 8:28 am

PanzerPowner wrote:
... E. Pray that the UN will stop condemning and do something useful.


F. Be lucky and the combatting parties will let you fly out of the country. A BA 149 scenario is not necessarily inevitable.
 
UAL777UK
Posts: 2359
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2005 1:16 am

Re: If An Aircraft Is En Route to a Nation That Breaks Out In War

Mon Nov 07, 2016 9:11 am

IPFreely wrote:
blueflyer wrote:
The plane lands and is immediately blown up by whoever is trying to take control of the airport, and everyone dies. End of story.


Not if Chuck Norris is on the plane.


That has brought tears to my eyes. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
 
jamesontheroad
Posts: 449
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2005 1:52 am

Re: If An Aircraft Is En Route to a Nation That Breaks Out In War

Mon Nov 07, 2016 10:10 am

VapourTrails wrote:
Newbiepilot wrote:
Similarly, and not totally off-topic, I am currently third the way through a book written about the diversions and the entire closure of U.S. airspace in the hours after 9/11. It gives an insight into the logistics and the way thousands of people were accommodated in Gander, Newfoundland. Thankfully, as far as I am aware, no one was injured (or killed), and no aircraft was damaged during this whole diversion incident? There were 200+ aircraft with approx. 33,000 pax. in Canada alone. The author said that aircraft half way through the flight or closer to the US had to land at the nearest non-US destination. If they weren't half way through their journey, international flights could return to the country of origin.


If it's The Day the World Came to Town by Jim Defede (2003) I can also recommend it - an inspirational story about the immense efforts a community went to in order to assist and comfort the thousands of passengers from 45 flights diverted to Gander that terrible day.

 
VapourTrails
Posts: 3866
Joined: Fri Aug 17, 2001 9:30 pm

Re: If An Aircraft Is En Route to a Nation That Breaks Out In War

Mon Nov 07, 2016 10:21 am

jamesontheroad wrote:
VapourTrails wrote:
Similarly, and not totally off-topic, I am currently third the way through a book written about the diversions and the entire closure of U.S. airspace in the hours after 9/11. It gives an insight into the logistics and the way thousands of people were accommodated in Gander.


The Day the World Came to Town by Jim Defede (2003) I can also recommend it - an inspirational story about the immense efforts a community went to in order to assist and comfort the thousands of passengers from 45 flights diverted to Gander that terrible day.



It is indeed, and yes, great read. Thanks. To the book author too. It makes me want to visit Gander one day as well.

From Wikipedia, War on Terror, 11 September 2001 – present (15 years, 1 month, 3 weeks and 5 days).
 
ltbewr
Posts: 14663
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2004 1:24 pm

Re: If An Aircraft Is En Route to a Nation That Breaks Out In War

Mon Nov 07, 2016 10:31 am

I suspect similar as done when an earthquake, tsunami, sudden flood or volcano erupts that may make an airport or airspace unsafe or unable to be used, divert to the best alternative airport, turn back even if push the limits of fuel available, declare an emergency to minimize time in the air.
 
Lofty
Posts: 666
Joined: Sun Mar 16, 2008 5:23 pm

Re: If An Aircraft Is En Route to a Nation That Breaks Out In War

Mon Nov 07, 2016 10:42 am

First thing is how much fuel does the aircraft have and can we divert to somewhere outside the country involved. If no can we divert to somewhere in country which has less chance of being overrun. If no you get the plane on the ground ASAP get fuel and get out of there ASAP.

Its about risk management, the lessons learnt from the BA incident in GW1 is improved communications between Ops and the aircraft, also you will see more flights cancelled or diverted earlier.
 
2175301
Posts: 1644
Joined: Wed May 16, 2007 11:19 am

Re: If An Aircraft Is En Route to a Nation That Breaks Out In War

Mon Nov 07, 2016 2:49 pm

The pilots will do the best they can. Either land at the airport, or find an alternate landing location. Airlines have occasionally landed on major highways in developed countries (usually due to a significant malfunction). There are too many unknowns to say for sure.

Except of course if Chuck Norris is on the plane with a film crew. The same can be said of Charles Bronson, Clint Eastwood, Sylvester Stallone, and several other Notables (and imagine if they several were on the same plane... The revolutionaries would not even know what hit them). Sadly, Bruce Lee has passed...

Have a great day,
 
PanzerPowner
Topic Author
Posts: 488
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2016 11:19 pm

Re: If An Aircraft Is En Route to a Nation That Breaks Out In War

Mon Nov 07, 2016 2:56 pm

So, here is a hypothetical "Scenario" and i would wonder what would happen if this were to happen, (If the middle of china is too far to any other airports that is not Chinese) Say your on a B737-800 and your in the DIRECT middle of China and war breaks out suddenly. Because i can' come up with a reason for why and how it stayed under the radar so long... But. What would you as the flight crew do to help the safety of all passengers on board. (This is not a domestic flight of sorts where Chinese Nationals are onboard, it is a Aviation Tour to somewhere to see oh i don't know a DC8?)
Well uh, I obviously decided to refine this but i dont know how.
 
Slcpilot
Posts: 614
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 3:32 am

Re: If An Aircraft Is En Route to a Nation That Breaks Out In War

Mon Nov 07, 2016 4:11 pm

2175301,

Charles Bronson it sadly not doing so well either...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Bronson

Fly Safe!

SLCPilot
I don't like to be fueled by anger, I don't like to be fooled by lust...
 
PanzerPowner
Topic Author
Posts: 488
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2016 11:19 pm

Re: If An Aircraft Is En Route to a Nation That Breaks Out In War

Mon Nov 07, 2016 4:13 pm

Slcpilot, how is that relevant to the topic?
Well uh, I obviously decided to refine this but i dont know how.
 
Slcpilot
Posts: 614
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 3:32 am

Re: If An Aircraft Is En Route to a Nation That Breaks Out In War

Mon Nov 07, 2016 4:27 pm

Panzerpowner,

2175301 will know why it is relevant.

More specifically, landing in a politically unstable airport could fall into one of two categories: either the flight crew knows, or they don't. If the crew doesn't know, the question is moot. If they do know, it is a choice made by the captain based probably on factors in this order.

1) pax safety
2) airline's best financial interest
3) passengers best interest

There can be so many factors that can influence these interests it is probably difficult to asses all the "what ifs". 9/11 (as mentioned) is probably the best example. Another one I have found interesting is the military P-3 diversion to China after the midair. The crew probably did not initially anticipate the aircraft being fully compromised to the Chinese.

Fly Safe!

SLCPilot
I don't like to be fueled by anger, I don't like to be fooled by lust...
 
User avatar
tjwgrr
Posts: 2474
Joined: Fri Mar 24, 2000 4:09 am

Re: If An Aircraft Is En Route to a Nation That Breaks Out In War

Mon Nov 07, 2016 4:30 pm

jamesontheroad wrote:
VapourTrails wrote:
Newbiepilot wrote:
Similarly, and not totally off-topic, I am currently third the way through a book written about the diversions and the entire closure of U.S. airspace in the hours after 9/11. It gives an insight into the logistics and the way thousands of people were accommodated in Gander, Newfoundland. Thankfully, as far as I am aware, no one was injured (or killed), and no aircraft was damaged during this whole diversion incident? There were 200+ aircraft with approx. 33,000 pax. in Canada alone. The author said that aircraft half way through the flight or closer to the US had to land at the nearest non-US destination. If they weren't half way through their journey, international flights could return to the country of origin.


If it's The Day the World Came to Town by Jim Defede (2003) I can also recommend it - an inspirational story about the immense efforts a community went to in order to assist and comfort the thousands of passengers from 45 flights diverted to Gander that terrible day.



FYI that photo is Halifax CYHZ. Here's Gander CYQX:

Direct KNOBS, maintain 2700' until established on the localizer, cleared ILS runway 26 left approach.
 
jamesontheroad
Posts: 449
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2005 1:52 am

Re: If An Aircraft Is En Route to a Nation That Breaks Out In War

Mon Nov 07, 2016 6:04 pm

tjwgrr wrote:
jamesontheroad wrote:
FYI that photo is Halifax CYHZ. Here's Gander CYQX:


Ooops, thanks!
 
User avatar
litz
Posts: 2360
Joined: Wed Dec 24, 2003 6:01 am

Re: If An Aircraft Is En Route to a Nation That Breaks Out In War

Mon Nov 07, 2016 9:31 pm

consider also, that during the Kuwait invasion, and even as late as 9/11, communications weren't what they are today.

The chances of a conflict breaking out and passengers/crew not knowing about it are very, very slim in today's world, with modern ACARS, sat-phone, and in-flight internet/TV.
 
VapourTrails
Posts: 3866
Joined: Fri Aug 17, 2001 9:30 pm

Re: If An Aircraft Is En Route to a Nation That Breaks Out In War

Mon Nov 07, 2016 10:28 pm

Slcpilot wrote:
More specifically, landing in a politically unstable airport could fall into one of two categories: either the flight crew knows, or they don't. If the crew doesn't know, the question is moot. If they do know, it is a choice made by the captain based probably on factors in this order.

1) pax safety
2) airline's best financial interest
3) passengers best interest

There can be so many factors that can influence these interests it is probably difficult to assess all the "what ifs". 9/11 (as mentioned) is probably the best example.

Fly Safe!

SLCPilot


Canada had no choice but to take the diversions? Of course they would, but there was also risk in the unknowns on those planes into Canada. Pax were kept on board for hours, in less than ideal conditions for some, but the weather at the time didn't seem to be an issue, was quite good it seems? All the pax were screened and background checked after arrival at the airport. The enemy is not at the airport, the enemy is potentially onboard in this case.

Grassroots humanity kind of reading. Like any flight, the pax were very varied, and included Barbara Fast, former Major General in the United States Army, and Werner Baldessarini, fashion designer for Hugo Boss.

tjwgrr wrote:
FYI that photo is Halifax CYHZ. Here's Gander CYQX.


There does not seem to be that many photos taken during those days of the airport parking lots? Contrast to today, when everything is photographed and videoed to the max!

litz wrote:
Consider also, that during the Kuwait invasion, and even as late as 9/11, communications weren't what they are today. The chances of a conflict breaking out and passengers/crew not knowing about it are very, very slim in today's world, with modern ACARS, sat-phone, and in-flight internet/TV.


Good case in point. I think that was part of the shock of MH17, loosely speaking here.
 
asuflyer
Posts: 506
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2007 12:48 pm

Re: If An Aircraft Is En Route to a Nation That Breaks Out In War

Mon Nov 07, 2016 10:51 pm

These days, other than terrorist attacks, war generally does not suddenly just occur, rather relations between countries become unstable and decline over time before conflict. Therefore, airlines usually have advance notice if a region is experiencing political turmoil or if a security situation there is deteriorating and airline operations communicate with their aircraft through ACARS and Sat phone will divert them if necessary.

The larger threat to airlines is the safety of their crew members on the ground in conflict areas. Last year airline crew were targeted during an attack on the Radisson Blu Hotel in Bamako. 6 Volga-Dnepr crew members were killed, and TK crew were taken hostage, while AF crew managed to escape the attack.
 
maxpower1954
Posts: 1067
Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 1:14 am

Re: If An Aircraft Is En Route to a Nation That Breaks Out In War

Tue Nov 08, 2016 1:29 am

[quote="2175301"]The pilots will do the best they can. Either land at the airport, or find an alternate landing location. Airlines have occasionally landed on major highways in developed countries (usually due to a significant malfunction). There are too many unknowns to say for sure.

Can you give any examples of airlines "landing" on a major highways for a "significant malfunction? Because I can't think of any successful ones; Southern 242 comes to mind..
 
Viscount724
Posts: 19316
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

Re: If An Aircraft Is En Route to a Nation That Breaks Out In War

Tue Nov 08, 2016 1:48 am

jamesontheroad wrote:
VapourTrails wrote:
Newbiepilot wrote:
Similarly, and not totally off-topic, I am currently third the way through a book written about the diversions and the entire closure of U.S. airspace in the hours after 9/11. It gives an insight into the logistics and the way thousands of people were accommodated in Gander, Newfoundland. Thankfully, as far as I am aware, no one was injured (or killed), and no aircraft was damaged during this whole diversion incident? There were 200+ aircraft with approx. 33,000 pax. in Canada alone. The author said that aircraft half way through the flight or closer to the US had to land at the nearest non-US destination. If they weren't half way through their journey, international flights could return to the country of origin.


If it's The Day the World Came to Town by Jim Defede (2003) I can also recommend it - an inspirational story about the immense efforts a community went to in order to assist and comfort the thousands of passengers from 45 flights diverted to Gander that terrible day.



Your photo is of Halifax, not Gander. If Wikipedia is correct, Halifax had 47 diversions and Gander 38. There's a table here. Halifax had the most diverted flights and Vancouver the most passengers (on 34 diverted flights, 3rd after YHZ and YQX.)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Yellow_Ribbon
 
2175301
Posts: 1644
Joined: Wed May 16, 2007 11:19 am

Re: If An Aircraft Is En Route to a Nation That Breaks Out In War

Tue Nov 08, 2016 1:50 am

maxpower1954 wrote:
2175301 wrote:
The pilots will do the best they can. Either land at the airport, or find an alternate landing location. Airlines have occasionally landed on major highways in developed countries (usually due to a significant malfunction). There are too many unknowns to say for sure.

Can you give any examples of airlines "landing" on a major highways for a "significant malfunction? Because I can't think of any successful ones; Southern 242 comes to mind..


My memories put this in the 1960's: a sizable single isle passenger jet for the day (I have no idea what kind) landed on I-94 between Madison and Milwaukee Wisconsin. Passengers were bused to Milwaukee, Jet was pulled off into a cornfield, repaired, and took off a half a week or so later on I-94. I was just a kid then (I grew up near Madison); but, it there was a lot of excitement about it and I know a number of people who saw the jet in the cornfield with maintenance people and a crane working on it. My memory is that at least one engine was changed. Reports were that the farmer got paid very well for their damaged fence and lost corn crop (I grew up in a small farm community - lost crops and fencing are important).

Have a great day,
 
maxpower1954
Posts: 1067
Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 1:14 am

Re: If An Aircraft Is En Route to a Nation That Breaks Out In War

Tue Nov 08, 2016 3:24 am

2175301 wrote:
maxpower1954 wrote:
2175301 wrote:
The pilots will do the best they can. Either land at the airport, or find an alternate landing location. Airlines have occasionally landed on major highways in developed countries (usually due to a significant malfunction). There are too many unknowns to say for sure.

Can you give any examples of airlines "landing" on a major highways for a "significant malfunction? Because I can't think of any successful ones; Southern 242 comes to mind..


My memories put this in the 1960's: a sizable single isle passenger jet for the day (I have no idea what kind) landed on I-94 between Madison and Milwaukee Wisconsin. Passengers were bused to Milwaukee, Jet was pulled off into a cornfield, repaired, and took off a half a week or so later on I-94. I was just a kid then (I grew up near Madison); but, it there was a lot of excitement about it and I know a number of people who saw the jet in the cornfield with maintenance people and a crane working on it. My memory is that at least one engine was changed. Reports were that the farmer got paid very well for their damaged fence and lost corn crop (I grew up in a small farm community - lost crops and fencing are important).

Have a great day,


Wow! I never heard of that one! I knew a North Central DC-3 made a forced landing in a cornfield near Norfolk, Nebraska in 1966. They repaired it and flew it out. Also a United Convair 340 in 1964 made a forced landing in a field near Sangus, California and was also repaired and flown out.

Do you have any idea what airline was involved in the I-95 incident?
 
2175301
Posts: 1644
Joined: Wed May 16, 2007 11:19 am

Re: If An Aircraft Is En Route to a Nation That Breaks Out In War

Tue Nov 08, 2016 3:42 am

maxpower1954 wrote:
2175301 wrote:
maxpower1954 wrote:


My memories put this in the 1960's: a sizable single isle passenger jet for the day (I have no idea what kind) landed on I-94 between Madison and Milwaukee Wisconsin. Passengers were bused to Milwaukee, Jet was pulled off into a cornfield, repaired, and took off a half a week or so later on I-94. I was just a kid then (I grew up near Madison); but, it there was a lot of excitement about it and I know a number of people who saw the jet in the cornfield with maintenance people and a crane working on it. My memory is that at least one engine was changed. Reports were that the farmer got paid very well for their damaged fence and lost corn crop (I grew up in a small farm community - lost crops and fencing are important).

Have a great day,


Wow! I never heard of that one! I knew a North Central DC-3 made a forced landing in a cornfield near Norfolk, Nebraska in 1966. They repaired it and flew it out. Also a United Convair 340 in 1964 made a forced landing in a field near Sangus, California and was also repaired and flown out.

Do you have any idea what airline was involved in the I-95 incident?


It was I-94. No clue which airline. If it was 1965 I would have been 7 (not sure what year - it is a childhood memory and I don't remember the year, my age, etc.). Just that it was the talk of the area... and my dad took pictures of it (I suppose I might have the negatives in the basement as I inherited his photography stuff - and have multiple large boxes of negatives - must be 5-10,000, or more of them; and not going to dig through them for this). Also, that it was a sizable multi engine passenger jet and not a prop plane (what are the options back then 727 or DC-9? any others?).

I have many times driven between Madison and Milwaukee on I-94 as an adult and picked out areas where you could land and take off a commercial airliner today without any major issues (assuming you avoided traffic on landing). They have added more road signs over the years, which might cause a minor issue. But, there are several very clear areas where it would be doable. Of course, other areas have overpasses, etc. that would result in a disaster...

Have a great day,
 
YLWbased
Posts: 903
Joined: Mon Jan 30, 2006 6:09 pm

Re: If An Aircraft Is En Route to a Nation That Breaks Out In War

Tue Nov 08, 2016 3:48 am

The Republic of Krakozhia.

YLWbased
Hong Kong is not China. Not better or worse, just different.
 
Viscount724
Posts: 19316
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

Re: If An Aircraft Is En Route to a Nation That Breaks Out In War

Tue Nov 08, 2016 3:50 am

2175301 wrote:
maxpower1954 wrote:
2175301 wrote:
The pilots will do the best they can. Either land at the airport, or find an alternate landing location. Airlines have occasionally landed on major highways in developed countries (usually due to a significant malfunction). There are too many unknowns to say for sure.

Can you give any examples of airlines "landing" on a major highways for a "significant malfunction? Because I can't think of any successful ones; Southern 242 comes to mind..


My memories put this in the 1960's: a sizable single aisle passenger jet for the day (I have no idea what kind) landed on I-94 between Madison and Milwaukee Wisconsin. Passengers were bused to Milwaukee, Jet was pulled off into a cornfield, repaired, and took off a half a week or so later on I-94. I was just a kid then (I grew up near Madison); but, it there was a lot of excitement about it and I know a number of people who saw the jet in the cornfield with maintenance people and a crane working on it. My memory is that at least one engine was changed. Reports were that the farmer got paid very well for their damaged fence and lost corn crop (I grew up in a small farm community - lost crops and fencing are important).



Can't find anything about a passenger jet landing on a highway successfully. The only event that comes to mind is the Southern Airways DC-9-31 that attempted an emergency landing on a highway in Georgia in 1977 after both engines flamed out in heavy rain and hail. Of the 85 persons aboard, 63 were killed, plus 9 on the ground.
https://aviation-safety.net/database/re ... 19770404-1
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_ ... Flight_242
http://www.forbes.com/sites/quora/2012/ ... 22f6053f53
 
maxpower1954
Posts: 1067
Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 1:14 am

Re: If An Aircraft Is En Route to a Nation That Breaks Out In War

Tue Nov 08, 2016 4:17 am

Here's another example I thought of - a German BAC 1-11 that had dual engine failure and attempted an emergency landing on an autobahn back in 1971. 22 fatalities, 99 survivors.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panintern ... Flight_112
 
2175301
Posts: 1644
Joined: Wed May 16, 2007 11:19 am

Re: If An Aircraft Is En Route to a Nation That Breaks Out In War

Tue Nov 08, 2016 5:16 am

I remember the 1977 Georgia event. It was all over the national news.

I know that the NTSB has for a very long time investigated Aviation accidents with fatalities (since 1926); and has I believe investigated all aircraft "accidents" since I believe 1940. But, for events without any fatalities or major damage... (which may not have been classified as an Accident - and may not be so classified even today - although I think there was a change in definition in 1967); I am not sure that they would even have investigated that in the 1960's. I do know that the farther you go back into aviation history the less official records there are for things that are not accidents.

Maxpower indicates several other forced landings in this time frame (in fields). Upon further research: I cannot find the 1966 Norfolk Nebraska DC-3 incident in the NTSB database. The 1964 Convair 340 incident is also not listed in the Database. The NTSB Database has a note that: On Oct. 2, 2001, minor cases which do not fall under the definition of "accident" or "incident" were removed from the database; these entries were previously identified with "SA" in the accident number.

So, I don't know where you look for "incidents" that did not involve major damage or fatalities such that they would be classified as "accidents."

The I-94 event that I remember is likely in a newspaper archive in a library (likely on microfilm); and unlikely to have been computerized even now. Regardless, it doesn't change my memory; and my older brothers and sisters also remember the event.

Have a great day,

Have a great day,
 
ckfred
Posts: 5178
Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2001 12:50 pm

Re: If An Aircraft Is En Route to a Nation That Breaks Out In War

Tue Nov 08, 2016 4:55 pm

Friends of ours were flying to Athens, when war broke out in Cyprus. This was back in the 1970s. If I recall correctly, Cyprus was an independent country, but the government was friendly with Greece. I believe rebels that wanted to install a pro-Turkey government attacked the capital, and I believe both Greece and Turkey started to mobilize troops.

This wasn't so much a safety issue, since Athens was some distance from Cyprus. But, the husband/father was a naturalized U.S. citizen originally from Greece, and he was young enough that he was still eligible for induction into the Greek military. He was asked a lot of questions about when he left Greece, when he became a U.S. citizen, where he was staying in Greece, the citizenship of his wife (born in Illinois), the ages of his children (all under 9, IIRC), and when he planned to return to the U.S.

Tensions had been reported in the news before they flew out of ORD, but military action broke out, while they were in the air. As soon as the extra questioning started, he knew what was going on in Cyprus.

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos