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mercure1
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Frankfurt new Terminal-3 is 1-year late already; Est 2023 open

Fri Nov 11, 2016 11:09 pm

Originally to open till 2022, but now authorities say it will be one year late till 2023 due to plan to redesign facility and need to add an additional floor designed to accommodate more lounge space that airlines like QR, EY and EK are requesting


How can is possibly take 7+ years to build merely a terminal? Other nations build entire airports in far less time!

Image


several articles
http://www.aerotelegraph.com/verspaetun ... -frankfurt
http://www.airliners.de/das-terminal-fr ... chen/40036
https://skift.com/2016/11/10/gulf-airli ... lufthansa/
mercure f-wtcc
 
DAL763ER
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Re: Frankfurt new Terminal-3 is 1-year late already; Est 2023 open

Fri Nov 11, 2016 11:37 pm

This shouldn't surprise anyone. Berlin was supposed to have a new airport up and running almost 5 years ago.
 
NichCage
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Re: Frankfurt new Terminal-3 is 1-year late already; Est 2023 open

Fri Nov 11, 2016 11:50 pm

Munich Airport opened its Terminal 2 Satellite Terminal on time.
 
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LAXintl
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Re: Frankfurt new Terminal-3 is 1-year late already; Est 2023 open

Sat Nov 12, 2016 2:02 am

Sure seems amazingly long time indeed to build a terminal.

Also looks pretty bland, non inspirational design.
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bohica
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Re: Frankfurt new Terminal-3 is 1-year late already; Est 2023 open

Sat Nov 12, 2016 2:34 am

LAXintl wrote:
Also looks pretty bland, non inspirational design.


Now that's transparency. :)
 
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ikolkyo
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Re: Frankfurt new Terminal-3 is 1-year late already; Est 2023 open

Sat Nov 12, 2016 2:38 am

LAXintl wrote:
Sure seems amazingly long time indeed to build a terminal.

Also looks pretty bland, non inspirational design.


I have to agree, many more impressive looking terminals have been built in a shorter period of time.
 
Slcpilot
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Re: Frankfurt new Terminal-3 is 1-year late already; Est 2023 open

Sat Nov 12, 2016 3:14 am

How long did it take to build the IAD terminal?
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TWA772LR
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Re: Frankfurt new Terminal-3 is 1-year late already; Est 2023 open

Sat Nov 12, 2016 3:45 am

BER says hi.

Couldn't resist.
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N14AZ
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Re: Frankfurt new Terminal-3 is 1-year late already; Est 2023 open

Sat Nov 12, 2016 3:51 am

mercure1 wrote:
How can is possibly take 7+ years to build merely a terminal? Other nations build entire airports in far less time!/

Just a moment, it was never intended to have T3 earlier than 2022. So to say it takes 7 years to build a terminal is simply wrong.

They now want to change the design and consider one additional year for changing the design and the associated approval works.
 
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LAXintl
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Re: Frankfurt new Terminal-3 is 1-year late already; Est 2023 open

Sat Nov 12, 2016 4:49 am

N14AZ wrote:
Just a moment, it was never intended to have T3 earlier than 2022. So to say it takes 7 years to build a terminal is simply wrong.

They now want to change the design and consider one additional year for changing the design and the associated approval works.


If you read one of the linked articles (airliners.de) FRAport representative says earth moving has already begun along with roadway work for the new terminal "well advanced," and the foundation work starts next year.

So in other words, yes its taking at very least 6 if not more years to build a single terminal. Rather crazy thought for 2016. This is not the pyramids.
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787fan8
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Re: Frankfurt new Terminal-3 is 1-year late already; Est 2023 open

Sat Nov 12, 2016 4:50 am

Well, it can't be any worse than the atrocity known as BER.
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LAXintl
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Re: Frankfurt new Terminal-3 is 1-year late already; Est 2023 open

Sat Nov 12, 2016 5:12 am

For fun here is comparison of some recent projects:

LAX TBIT terminal ground breaking to operational opening - 31 months
LHR Terminal-2 ground breaking to dedication - 49 months
HKG built entire new airport on partially reclaimed land in just over 37 months!
Turkey says its building and entire greenfield airport slated to be the worlds largest in just over 4 years for Istanbul.

FRA T-3 meanwhile had its ground breaking in October 2015 and was originally planning a 2022 opening, now pushed to 2023.
Thats nuts. Is everyone working part-time in FRA??
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PanHAM
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Re: Frankfurt new Terminal-3 is 1-year late already; Est 2023 open

Sat Nov 12, 2016 6:36 am

The difference between BER and FRA is, that Fraport has the venture under control. There is no rush as the current capacity can be handled by the existing terminals and the "delay" of one year is intentional. You may have heard that FRA finally opened up for low cost and the final dcision has not been made who will re-locate where. Latest News was that T3 will have ore space for Airline Lounges. Better to do this now than re-designing a finished structure.
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tommy1808
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Re: Frankfurt new Terminal-3 is 1-year late already; Est 2023 open

Sat Nov 12, 2016 7:44 am

[twoid][/twoid]
LAXintl wrote:
So in other words, yes its taking at very least 6 if not more years to build a single terminal. Rather crazy thought for 2016. This is not the pyramids.


Exactly. The pyramids were not build on ground that had to be cleared of word war 2 ammunitions in the process.

They build towards the date they think they need it. This is not a long overdue new terminal desperately needed, this is a planned for needed in-service date structure.

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CARST
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Re: Frankfurt new Terminal-3 is 1-year late already; Est 2023 open

Sat Nov 12, 2016 7:47 am

Just for wait for it, it will end up being like BER. After the Elb-Philharmonica at Hamburg, the new Berlin airport, the new Stuttgart main train station (S21) and now Frankfurt T-3, I really think Germany has lost its mojo on planning and building major contructions on-time. It is just not possible anymore, at least everywhere, where you have politicians involved. Private and commercial projects are a total different story...

It is not that the world hasn't seen other major contructions botched. The Suez canal costed 2000 times more than anticipated. The would famous Sydney Opera house opened 10 years late. But still, Germany once was known for precise planning and dedication to finish projects on-time. This has changed massively, especially with rising input from people without knowledge into these projects (politicians).
 
PanHAM
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Re: Frankfurt new Terminal-3 is 1-year late already; Est 2023 open

Sat Nov 12, 2016 9:30 am

There is no comparison between T3 and the Elb Philharmonie, which, BTW, the hamburgers are proud of meanwhile. The building will earn it's Keep. T3 at FRA is a private Project since Fraport is run as an "AG", a publicly listed Company. there is no government involvement, except that the Mayor of FRA and a Greens member of state parliament are against the Airport in General. Both serve of the supervisory board of Fraport but are far from having a majority. As said, Fraport is a privately run Enterprise, T3 is privately funded, as was the new runway, as was the t1 "0" Pier.

The new terminal is simply not needed until 2023, it was targeted for 2022 but the dent in passenger numbers growth extended that date.

While in Berlin and Brandenburg they have learned nothing from the Desaster, the supervisory board is still staffed by politicians, the Management is pn their short leash and to make things worse, they now talk of extending the night curfew from 10 pm to 6 am, cutting off Berlin from the rest of the world for 8 hours. Idiots at work.
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seahawk
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Re: Frankfurt new Terminal-3 is 1-year late already; Est 2023 open

Sat Nov 12, 2016 10:30 am

LAXintl wrote:
N14AZ wrote:
Just a moment, it was never intended to have T3 earlier than 2022. So to say it takes 7 years to build a terminal is simply wrong.

They now want to change the design and consider one additional year for changing the design and the associated approval works.


If you read one of the linked articles (airliners.de) FRAport representative says earth moving has already begun along with roadway work for the new terminal "well advanced," and the foundation work starts next year.

So in other words, yes its taking at very least 6 if not more years to build a single terminal. Rather crazy thought for 2016. This is not the pyramids.


No, it does not take 6 years to built the terminal. It takes six years to develop the southern side of the airport from the former US airbase use to becoming a fully functional terminal. It started with removal of the old infrastructure and checking for old munition, currently they are building bridges for the connection to the highway, which then will be used to supply the terminal construction. FRAport always had allowed themselves to skip the finalisation of the terminal design until late 2017.For such big projects in Germany you can always add 6-12 months compared to the US, as you do not need to search for 70 year old bombs hidden in the ground there.
 
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atcsundevil
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Re: Frankfurt new Terminal-3 is 1-year late already; Est 2023 open

Sat Nov 12, 2016 11:26 am

Slcpilot wrote:
How long did it take to build the IAD terminal?

Roughly three years. The design was completed in 1958 and the airport was opened in 1962. The main terminal was extended to its current length (as originally intended by Saarinen) in 1996.


Six years is a lengthy lead time, but I think sometimes people don't always have a compete picture when it comes to the challenges of a large construction project such as this. In some cases, the site itself requires lengthy prep work for environmental purposes, drainage, foundation, etc. In some cases this prep work can take years before any building can be done. Apart from that, change orders -- like in this case where an entire additional level is being added to the design -- mean that multiple components of the project must go back to the drawing board. An additional level means huge changes to structural designs, and potentially changes the overall look of the building.

Design phase aside, this is Germany we're talking about, which means weather can wreak havoc on a build schedule. If this terminal were being built in Arizona, maybe it would be finished in 30 months or less. Being in an often cold, wet climate with frequent snowfall in the winter months means pouring concrete or installing steel beams may not take place on schedule due to adverse conditions, not to mention an overall decrease in worker productivity due to cold/rain/snow/ice/wind, delays in getting supplies to the site, etc. That 30 month build in ideal conditions can easily jump up to 45-60 months. It's also complicated by the fact that this is a working airport, even if it's some distance from the current terminals themselves. Rerouting traffic to accommodate construction and construction vehicles multiple times as the project progresses, building ancillary infrastructure to support the terminal operations like roads, water lines, sewer, power, cooling, and so on, all while minimizing disruption to airport operations.

It might seem like a long time, and it is, but without taking a page from Dubai's book and having workers on site 24/7 or paying ridiculous amounts of OT, in terms of time it takes what it takes. It isn't about just throwing up a new building...it's logistically challenging on a multitude of levels. The circumstances of the BER debacle are entirely different here, because it is a more traditional arrangement of architects and contractor delivering to their client, so they have every motivating factor to complete the project on time, on budget, and done right so that they don't face financial penalty.
 
sofianec
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Re: Frankfurt new Terminal-3 is 1-year late already; Est 2023 open

Sat Nov 12, 2016 2:43 pm

Frankfurt simply doesn't need Terminal 3. It was just an exercise in forward planning but today Frankfurt is underused with ample space in both Terminal 1 and Terminal 2. Postponing Terminal 3 is a prudent decision unlike Berlin where the issues are completely different.
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PanHAM
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Re: Frankfurt new Terminal-3 is 1-year late already; Est 2023 open

Sun Nov 13, 2016 6:40 am

Frankfurt Needs Terminal 3 and i invite you to use t1 or T2 on a busy day when over 200K Pax are handled. In a Country where planning can take between 10 and 20 years because every garden dwarf can object zoning and planning procedures, industry is focrced to plan ahead as Long as they possibly can. The new landing runway, which was inaugurated 5 years ago, the terminal extensions at t1 and 2 and t3 are all part of extemsions planned to cater for growth well into the 2030s.
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DFW789ER
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Re: Frankfurt new Terminal-3 is 1-year late already; Est 2023 open

Mon Nov 14, 2016 3:22 am

sofianec wrote:
Frankfurt simply doesn't need Terminal 3. It was just an exercise in forward planning but today Frankfurt is underused with ample space in both Terminal 1 and Terminal 2. Postponing Terminal 3 is a prudent decision unlike Berlin where the issues are completely different.


I'm guessing you haven't flown into FRA during rush hour in the last10 years? They very much need more gate space.
 
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EK413
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Re: Frankfurt new Terminal-3 is 1-year late already; Est 2023 open

Mon Nov 14, 2016 4:33 am

787fan8 wrote:
Well, it can't be any worse than the atrocity known as BER.


Last I read BER requires a complete rebuild from the ground up?

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just7four7
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Re: Frankfurt new Terminal-3 is 1-year late already; Est 2023 open

Mon Nov 14, 2016 9:23 am

Guess 'not boring' today means yet another topsy-curvy terminal roof resembling I-don't-know-what and commonly described as 'interesting' and with blue and green decoration lights at night.
Elegance, understatement or 'less is more' are long forgotten values.. sadly. It is the days of indulging opulence, like a woman with too much make-up.

One can hear it here again. All the angry citizens that call 'shame'. The national sport of our time, public outrage, fed by hungry media and the web.
Pretty much every serious large multi-disciplinary construction project today in the world runs over budget and time. Just how it is. A reality.
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fraT
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Re: Frankfurt new Terminal-3 is 1-year late already; Est 2023 open

Mon Nov 14, 2016 9:42 am

DFW789ER wrote:
sofianec wrote:
Frankfurt simply doesn't need Terminal 3. It was just an exercise in forward planning but today Frankfurt is underused with ample space in both Terminal 1 and Terminal 2. Postponing Terminal 3 is a prudent decision unlike Berlin where the issues are completely different.


I'm guessing you haven't flown into FRA during rush hour in the last10 years? They very much need more gate space.


Not really. Not all airlines which board/deboard on the outside stands desperately want to park at a bridge and pay more fees. As mentioned above by various posters, FRA is not close to capacity.
 
PanHAM
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Re: Frankfurt new Terminal-3 is 1-year late already; Est 2023 open

Mon Nov 14, 2016 10:32 am

FRA is not "close to capacity" simply because new capacity has been added 5 years ago with a new landing runway increasing capacity by 200K movements p.a. . There is still available terminal capacity at the existing t1 and 2 but this will be saturated by around 2023. That is a comfortable Situation many Airports, not only LHR, would like to have. Jetbridge stands however are limited today already
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PanHAM
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Re: Frankfurt new Terminal-3 is 1-year late already; Est 2023 open

Mon Nov 14, 2016 10:32 am

FRA is not "close to capacity" simply because new capacity has been added 5 years ago with a new landing runway increasing capacity by 200K movements p.a. . There is still available terminal capacity at the existing t1 and 2 but this will be saturated by around 2023. That is a comfortable Situation many Airports, not only LHR, would like to have. Jetbridge stands however are limited today already
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mjoelnir
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Re: Frankfurt new Terminal-3 is 1-year late already; Est 2023 open

Mon Nov 14, 2016 12:39 pm

Some posters here should quieten down a little bit. T3 in FRA is not over budget, not yet to be exact. T3 in FRA is not late. It was decided to change the plans for T3 and make the terminal considerable bigger than first planed. New design work is needed to accommodate the changes, and both the beginning of the building phase and planned opening date has been moved by a year.
Site preparation has started and is not like doing a greenfield project, but old buildings have to be removed and the contaminated area has to be cleaned up, including exchange of soil.
 
Noshow
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Re: Frankfurt new Terminal-3 is 1-year late already; Est 2023 open

Mon Nov 14, 2016 12:51 pm

The opening (and even the start of the construction phase) has been moved to the right several times. This is no delay it's planned to be this way. As the legal preparation and permits take so long in Germany, they got everything legal first and now can just start building it whenever they need it. Sort of smarter than before and quite different from BER.

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