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Dash9
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Next aircraft program at Bombardier

Mon Nov 14, 2016 3:29 am

Bombardier and the Canadian Federal govt are negotiating since a year for a 1 billions dollars cash injection. Thus far it went nowhere and the reason might be that its a hard sell to taxpayers. Bombardier CEO said last week that now they don't need to cash to survive or pay for Cseries ramp up, but rather to kickstart the next program. That might be an easier to the public sell if the Feds jump in.

Source: https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... er-431401/


Let the speculation begin. What could /should by BBD next program once their engineers are done with the global 7K/8K?

'CS500' stretch of the CS300?
'CS90' shrink of the CS100 to keep a presence in the regional sector as the CRJ is slowly dying?
CRJ re-engine? What engines? GE Passport? PW800? PW1000C?
CRJ replacement? If so how different would it be from the MRJ as it would need to slot under the Cseries?
Could they offer to team up with Mitsubishi to help with certification, worldwide support, 2nd FAL @ Mirabel in place of the CRJ line?
Q400 re-engine with a slower engine option that cost less to procure, operate and maintain?
Q400 stretch and shrink to cover 50 to 100 seats?
A new biz jet family to slot under the Global to replaces the venerable Challenger 350/650?
Learjet 85 reborn?

My money is on a CS500 or a CRJ neo/upgrade/replacement, potentialy based on the G7K fuselage that is a bid larger than the CRJ / Challenger / G5K/6K

-Dash9
 
kabq737
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Re: Next aircraft program at Bombardier

Mon Nov 14, 2016 3:34 am

Oh this is very interesting. Personally I'm hoping for a CS500 but I'm not sure that Bombardier is ready to compete with A and B. I think the most likely scenario is a re-engined CRJ.
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Varsity1
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Re: Next aircraft program at Bombardier

Mon Nov 14, 2016 3:39 am

I can't see anything to be honest.

Talk about a company that has backed it'self into a corner.
 
Dash9
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Re: Next aircraft program at Bombardier

Mon Nov 14, 2016 3:51 am

Varsity1 wrote:
I can't see anything to be honest.

Talk about a company that has backed it'self into a corner.


Seriously, you can't see anything? Beside the Cseries and the Globals, everything else in their line up needs at least a refresh, if not a complete replacement!

You may spit on BBD management all day long and you'll be right. They messed up, started too many competing programs, underestimate the effort and capital required, didn't marketed the CS100/VS3000 correctly, etc. That being said that higher management is gone, the new team is very well regarded in the industry and they are getting the house on order as shows their last results .

The Cseries is a very well designed airplane and thus far the entry into service is flawless. Flight Global flown it and had only positive things to say.
Source: https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... ts-431271/

Kudo to BBD engineers that created a great aircraft *despite* all the miscalculations and errors from upper management. Well that engineering team will be idle in 2 years so they better start working on the next thing soon. Hence why the discussion. but if you can't see anything they could work on....
 
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nikeson13
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Re: Next aircraft program at Bombardier

Mon Nov 14, 2016 3:52 am

If they were to have a new program, it would have to be the CS500. It would easily sell well at great numbers. Or we can see something completely radical, like a MOM model ;)
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kabq737
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Re: Next aircraft program at Bombardier

Mon Nov 14, 2016 3:58 am

nikeson13 wrote:
If they were to have a new program, it would have to be the CS500. It would easily sell well at great numbers. Or we can see something completely radical, like a MOM model ;)

Actually kind of an interesting idea. Maybe Bombardier could make an aircraft extremely revolutionary and unlike anything else on offer. That could potentially put them ahead of A and B and help cement them into the Mainline jet market.
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TWA772LR
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Re: Next aircraft program at Bombardier

Mon Nov 14, 2016 4:15 am

If BBD can secure another big name airline for the CSeries, they may feel safe enough to launch the CS500.

A new Dash 8, or a cover-all Dash 9 family (to cover the CRJ and Q families), would also do good. A Q300/400neo would do wonders for the regional industry. They need to focus on making their products able to coexist with Embraer to the point where airlines can have them in their fleet to be used for different missions, and not directly compete.
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baje427
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Re: Next aircraft program at Bombardier

Mon Nov 14, 2016 1:14 pm

BBD has given up the turboprop market to ATR perhaps the Q200,Q300 lines could be sold off to Viking.
 
Noshow
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Re: Next aircraft program at Bombardier

Mon Nov 14, 2016 1:23 pm

The logical thing would be some bigger CS500 fast. But one billion wouldn't do it and it might keep Bomardier locked in the cash strapped corner they are in right now. Maybe bringing finances back to normal first should be the priority? The C Series is a good product.
 
chornedsnorkack
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Re: Next aircraft program at Bombardier

Mon Nov 14, 2016 2:00 pm

How much would it cost to develop a CSeries business jet?
 
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Polot
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Re: Next aircraft program at Bombardier

Mon Nov 14, 2016 2:06 pm

Dash9 wrote:
'CS90' shrink of the CS100 to keep a presence in the regional sector as the CRJ is slowly dying?

Would never be competitive. The CS100 itself is pushing it.

Dash9 wrote:
'CS500' stretch of the CS300?

Dash9 wrote:
CRJ re-engine? What engines? GE Passport? PW800? PW1000C?

Most logical.

Dash9 wrote:
CRJ replacement? If so how different would it be from the MRJ as it would need to slot under the Cseries?

nikeson13 wrote:
Or we can see something completely radical, like a MOM model

kabq737 wrote:
Actually kind of an interesting idea. Maybe Bombardier could make an aircraft extremely revolutionary and unlike anything else on offer. That could potentially put them ahead of A and B and help cement them into the Mainline jet market.

BBD is in no condition to launch a brand new model. $1 billion doesn't suddenly change that.
 
Sooner787
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Re: Next aircraft program at Bombardier

Mon Nov 14, 2016 3:20 pm

nikeson13 wrote:
If they were to have a new program, it would have to be the CS500. It would easily sell well at great numbers. Or we can see something completely radical, like a MOM model ;)



I'd love to see DL order some CS300's to replace their 717's and MD-80's.

Plus, DL would be a logical launch customer for a CS500 as well.

BTW...when is DL supposed to get their first CS100?
 
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KarelXWB
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Re: Next aircraft program at Bombardier

Mon Nov 14, 2016 3:26 pm

Bombardier needs to address the Q400; ATR is eating the Q400 for lunch. And I suppose the CRJ can use a new engine too.

The hypothetical CS500 does not have priority. Aviation fans would love to see another CSeries stretch, I think it would be foolish to move into 737-8 / A320 territory. Boeing and Airbus are just too powerful.
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mjoelnir
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Re: Next aircraft program at Bombardier

Mon Nov 14, 2016 3:43 pm

I think Bombardier need to live a while without a new program and digest first the havoc the C series has brought. Only if sales and deliveries of the C improves will come cash flow that will allow new projects. The next possibilities would be low key. Evolving the CRJ, evolving the Dash8.
 
opticalilyushin
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Re: Next aircraft program at Bombardier

Mon Nov 14, 2016 3:45 pm

Personally I think putting a new engine on a CRJ would be flogging a dead horse. The economics of the CS100 must surely look more tempting than a CRJ now, more comfort onboard, better economics and more hold storage space..the only nice thing about the CRJ is the speed. I would hope for the CS500.
 
Flighty
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Re: Next aircraft program at Bombardier

Mon Nov 14, 2016 3:49 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
I think Bombardier need to live a while without a new program and digest first the havoc the C series has brought. Only if sales and deliveries of the C improves will come cash flow that will allow new projects. The next possibilities would be low key. Evolving the CRJ, evolving the Dash8.


As an amateur I agree. BBD is at the bleeding edge of what they are able to accomplish financially. To their credit, by all indications, the Cseries is getting rave reviews, and exploits an excellent void in the marketplace. With luck, the CSeries will be the future backbone of BBD. And boy I do wish them tons of luck.

The CRJ family clearly needs a redo, but the fuselage diameter is an almost insurmountable weakness of the platform. If they can achieve new lows in trip cost.. IF... significantly below Embraer E2, and I mean significantly... it might be worthwhile to revise the CRJ platform. Airline networks do need 50-70 seaters that burn fuel at turboprop levels. There is a market there. Network planners dealing with cutting their weakest cities agonize over the minimum cost airplane. Currently the CR2, which is becoming outdated. That means a lot of cities will lose service.
 
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mercure1
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Re: Next aircraft program at Bombardier

Mon Nov 14, 2016 3:59 pm

To me what BBD need to really first focus on fixing the issues it has with its business jet segment, not commercial. Business jet revenues even with recent years downturn are significantly higher portion of company income than commercial.

At the moment much of the business jet unit is a mess with challanges(many self caused) in Learjet, Challenger and Global families.
Returning business jet unit to a more coherent and functional family of products to should be be very important.
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Varsity1
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Re: Next aircraft program at Bombardier

Mon Nov 14, 2016 5:06 pm

Selling Learjet could be a good start. Textron might be interested.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Next aircraft program at Bombardier

Mon Nov 14, 2016 5:09 pm

probably this will over the best chance: 'CS500' stretch of the CS300?
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Matt6461
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Re: Next aircraft program at Bombardier

Mon Nov 14, 2016 5:17 pm

Clean sheet A380 replacement!
 
amdiesen
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Re: Next aircraft program at Bombardier

Mon Nov 14, 2016 5:51 pm

C-Series
- a tremendous reach for Bombardier, every effort needed to achieve success as this will determine the 21st century Bombardier.
Regional Jets - the 20th century Bombardier needs a material update
1) CRJ
2) turbo-prop
Business jets
- derivatives of the commercial jet, organizational issues 1). succinct business plan, product focus

....
Respecting that C-series success is paramount, the firm might consider a holistic solution to the regional jet business line. This solution can trickle down into the business jet morass

a proposed solution would be increased commonality between the CRJ and the turbo-prop offerings. Ideally a common tube. Maximized parts commonality and staffing commonality would be attractive.

A concise approach:
One 80-90 seat tube
- CRJ derivative with new engines
- Q800 derivative with new engines
limited cross training between pilots, frame mechanics, ground crew, and flight attendants. Obviously the engine mechanics would be specialized.

Start with an Henry Ford / Steve Jobs approach : Develop one model and have the industrial engineers pursue perfecting the product.
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CRJ900
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Re: Next aircraft program at Bombardier

Mon Nov 14, 2016 6:20 pm

My two cents: Offer the CRJ900 with 96 seats @ 29-30 inch pitch for max revenue while retaining the good airfield performance of the CRJ900. The CRJ1000 is too long and needs more runway.

A refreshed Q300 with 50 seats and the short-runway characteristics of the Q100/200. Widerøe would love a 50 seater that can take off with 50 pax from an 800-metre runway.
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canadianpylon
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Re: Next aircraft program at Bombardier

Mon Nov 14, 2016 6:22 pm

The CSeriesmust become a bread and butter airplane for BBD for them to succeed in the near future.

Since 80 seats became the new 50 seater, and redevelopement of that segment is most feasible, IMO. Hopefully they do better than re-engining the CRJ. Hopefully they incorporate some of the positive aspects out of the Cseries (wider seats, bigger windows, etc...)

As for a new Q200/Q300, I think there is a small market for it. As baje427 said, I think they should sell it off to Viking and get some $$$ for it instead of redeveloping it.

If they want to go bold, get in on the MoM discussion. Develop a 757-200ER replacement? Not for a billion dollars, I think. They'd need more investment for that....
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alasizon
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Re: Next aircraft program at Bombardier

Mon Nov 14, 2016 6:31 pm

amdiesen wrote:
....
Respecting that C-series success is paramount, the firm might consider a holistic solution to the regional jet business line. This solution can trickle down into the business jet morass

a proposed solution would be increased commonality between the CRJ and the turbo-prop offerings. Ideally a common tube. Maximized parts commonality and staffing commonality would be attractive.

A concise approach:
One 80-90 seat tube
- CRJ derivative with new engines
- Q800 derivative with new engines
limited cross training between pilots, frame mechanics, ground crew, and flight attendants. Obviously the engine mechanics would be specialized.

Start with an Henry Ford / Steve Jobs approach : Develop one model and have the industrial engineers pursue perfecting the product.


Problem is, how do you have a common platform when the CRJ model demands for engines that are tail-mounted while the Q platform is wing mounted

Polot wrote:
Dash9 wrote:
'CS90' shrink of the CS100 to keep a presence in the regional sector as the CRJ is slowly dying?

Would never be competitive. The CS100 itself is pushing it.

If the shrink could drop the MTOW by enough and make it into the US3 scope clause, that would make it more competitive than the E2. I can't see it being able to drop the MTOW by that much though.
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morrisond
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Re: Next aircraft program at Bombardier

Mon Nov 14, 2016 6:37 pm

What about a CRJ/Q replacement using updated Q400 Based Engines on a shortened Cseries cross section with new Super Efficient High-Wing? The PW150 apparently is good for 40% more thrust than installed on the Q400.

Super efficient 80-100 seat Turbo Prop? The CS100 is only 8-9' shorter than a Q400. It could be great for Short stage lengths.
 
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OA940
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Re: Next aircraft program at Bombardier

Mon Nov 14, 2016 6:40 pm

They have 3 chances to jump to.

-The CS500. Many airlines will take it as it'll be cheaper than the 737-A320 most likely, and LCC's could jump to the opprotunity. IMO it'll be successful, just give the whole program a chance.
-A MoM aircraft. Now that Airbus is offering a MoM plane, with not many orders thus far, BBD could jump the gun and offer a 757 replacement/A321LR competitor. If they market it correctly, it could be a successful jet.
-A LH plane. They have always stayed in the regional/lower capacity market, but a long haul aircraft could be likely. The 300-seater market can have another plane, and airlines could take it for its costs. But to compete with the A350/777/787 they will need range (14-15000km), economics and other things that will provide an advantage against the kings of LH.

The MoM is a chance, but long-haul is bold as hell. But with the right moves they could do it. If they wanna play safe, they have the CS500. I don't think they'll do anything else, as they have the smaller markets covered. Idk much about new project fundings, but maybe 1B is just for perliminary designs/research/marketing to airlines for the LH, and a bit more design progress for the MoM. They can do it, their planes are very successful for their markets and their competition.
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Polot
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Re: Next aircraft program at Bombardier

Mon Nov 14, 2016 6:47 pm

alasizon wrote:
Problem is, how do you have a common platform when the CRJ model demands for engines that are tail-mounted while the Q platform is wing mounted.


Also the design needs for a slow turboprop and a fast jet are very different. Trying to compromise between the two means you end up with a slow jet (see Dornier 328/328JET) which ends up eliminating one of the biggest competitive advantages of jets.

morrisond wrote:
What about a CRJ/Q replacement using updated Q400 Based Engines on a shortened Cseries cross section with new Super Efficient High-Wing? The PW150 apparently is good for 40% more thrust than installed on the Q400.

The problem with the Q400 is that it is too capable versus the competition (ATR). Most airlines don't need that capability so the plane gets stuck in an awkward position where it is too much for most turboprop operators but not good enough to directly compete with jets. Adding more weight and more thrust is not the solution.

Things like MoMs or especially a long haul jet is too much of a leap for BBD now. Airbus and Boeing would crush them, especially as:
A) both already have brand new highly efficient state of the art jets (A350/787).
B) They have a full range of products to offer to tailor to airline's needs.
How would BBD's plane be better? It would be using the same engines and tech as the 787/A350- not enough time has passed to benefit over the now current gen technology.

BBD launched the C Series because the A318/736 were completely noncompetitive, the A319/73G were quickly being seen as noncompetitive, and there was no ultra efficient jets with new engines on the horizon (remember the C Series program predates the MAX/NEO programs). That is not the case with widebodies, and it is debatable how large/profitable the MOM market actually is.
Last edited by Polot on Mon Nov 14, 2016 6:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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c933103
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Re: Next aircraft program at Bombardier

Mon Nov 14, 2016 6:48 pm

Can you make a clean sheet long haul wide body design with only a few billion?
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NYCRuss
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Re: Next aircraft program at Bombardier

Mon Nov 14, 2016 6:56 pm

OA940 wrote:
They have 3 chances to jump to.

-The CS500. Many airlines will take it as it'll be cheaper than the 737-A320 most likely, and LCC's could jump to the opprotunity. IMO it'll be successful, just give the whole program a chance.
-A MoM aircraft. Now that Airbus is offering a MoM plane, with not many orders thus far, BBD could jump the gun and offer a 757 replacement/A321LR competitor. If they market it correctly, it could be a successful jet.
-A LH plane. They have always stayed in the regional/lower capacity market, but a long haul aircraft could be likely. The 300-seater market can have another plane, and airlines could take it for its costs. But to compete with the A350/777/787 they will need range (14-15000km), economics and other things that will provide an advantage against the kings of LH.

The MoM is a chance, but long-haul is bold as hell. But with the right moves they could do it. If they wanna play safe, they have the CS500. I don't think they'll do anything else, as they have the smaller markets covered. Idk much about new project fundings, but maybe 1B is just for perliminary designs/research/marketing to airlines for the LH, and a bit more design progress for the MoM. They can do it, their planes are very successful for their markets and their competition.


It's debatable if the A321LR is in the MoM segment. Boeing used to see that segment as a 752 replacement. Now they see it as a roughly 762 sized aircraft. Either way, a BBD MoM would be a clean sheet design, and cost considerably more than $1 billion to develop. BBD has barely survived developing the CSeries. I don't see how betting the farm on a market segment of uncertain size makes sense for them.

When the engine supply for the CSeries ceases to be a bottleneck, a CS500 seems sensible to me if they want to build a larger aircraft.
 
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Boeing778X
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Re: Next aircraft program at Bombardier

Mon Nov 14, 2016 7:26 pm

I'm guessing that BBD will do the CS500 next, providing that they can get their money's worth from the CS100, which is overengineered from what I hear.

I would also further develop the CRJ-700/-900 to combat rising stars such as the E175, as well as being ideal 50-seat RJ replacements.
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LAXintl
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Re: Next aircraft program at Bombardier

Mon Nov 14, 2016 7:32 pm

BBD must fix is business aviation segment. Commercial can wait.

Bizjet segment and its support services does indeed generate 3-4 times the revenue commercial airline side generates.

BBD must once and for all decide on what path its taking with its divergent lines of aircraft and come up with a coherent family vision it can offer clients for the next 10+ years. Bungled aircraft model programs must either be dumped for good, or they need to move ahead. Today too many projects are either "frozen" or simply in holding patterns.

Regardless of what programs and family line up BBD decides on, it must execute programs successfully and be competitive in the market place. BBD is gaining an increasingly poor reputation in the marketplace with many not convinced todays products will be around tomorrow which means questionable resale values and concerns about long term product support.
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Oykie
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Re: Next aircraft program at Bombardier

Mon Nov 14, 2016 8:01 pm

As it cost BBD 5,4 billion USD to develop the Cseries, 1 billion will not get us a completely new family. I wonder why the Learjet 85 was cancelled. I guess it would be to risky to relaunch it, it a derivative. Passport engines on the CRJ has been considered by many. Getting more done in the turboprop market is also a need. My guess is that they will either do the CS500, redo the CRJ and/or the Q-series. What I would like to see is Bombardier launching a brand new four abreast regional jet built on the architecture of the CSeries. Common systems, common cockpit etc. Same technology. Smaller GTF engines. Then Bombardier could base some of their business jets on this plane as well. This way Bombareider could compete better with the MRJ, Embraer E2 and Embraer Lineage 1000. With 1 billion in cash they may not be able to afford this, but this is what I would like to see.
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Quantos
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Re: Next aircraft program at Bombardier

Mon Nov 14, 2016 8:12 pm

Definitely BBD's next program will be derivative. The question will be what has the most potential between iterating on the C Series, CRJ, or Q Series.

CS500 is an obvious choice, especially considering it would be only a "one" stretch of the CS300 (the CS100 technically being a shrink of the CS300 and not the other way around). Would 1 billion be enough to achieve this? That's hard to tell. Would the CS500 be a successful aircraft? That's also hard to tell, but will progressively be easier to figure out as more and more airlines start using the 100/300. I'm sure BBD have been gauging interest in a bigger C Series, and it's in fact entirely possible that some customers have actually asked them specifically for a CS500.

I'm not seeing the Q Series rework happening. As others have said, the Q Series is for many airlines too much aircraft for the purpose. The only way a Q Series would work (and I mean really be successful) is to somehow rework it so it's cheaper. I'm not convinced it's possible to rework the Q Series in a significantly cheaper plane.

CRJ improvements are always a possibility and probably the easiest project BBD could undertake technically. New engines would go a long way in making the CRJ more attractive.
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aerolimani
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Re: Next aircraft program at Bombardier

Mon Nov 14, 2016 8:29 pm

Bombardier is at risk of ceding the regional jet market primarily to Embraer, not to mention all the other competition coming on line in the segment from 70-110 seats. However, in order to more successfully compete in this market, they'd have to come up with a whole new plane with a wider fuselage. Besides being expensive, such a plane could start competing too much with the CS100. However, if a more economical NEO version of the CRJ could be done, that could still generate some good sales in this segment, and stave off (for another 5+ years) the need for any large investment in a CRJ replacement.

The turboprop market is almost totally lost to ATR now. I wonder, though, how cheaply a redesign of the Q400 could be done. New wing, new and smaller engines, and shifting the landing gear to underneath the fuselage. Those long legs coming out the bottom of the engine nacelles must weigh a lot as compared to the ATR. Granted, this is not a cheap undertaking, but at least the competition in this market is less than in the RJ's and business jets.

As to the business jet segment, I think they would do well to sell off Learjet, cease any further development of the Challenger, and focus on developing the Global 7/8000.

Of the many BBD missteps, I think the most foolish was to think that A and B would not try to compete with the CSeries if BBD only built the smaller CS100 and CS300. Hindsight is 20/20, of course, and now I'm sure they can see that it would have been better to just face the competition head-on. Even though it is late in the game, I believe if BBD could get the CS500 going, it would encourage more sales of the existing CSeries models.

So, IMHO, in this order: 1) trim some fat, 2) announce the CS500, 3) cling to the business and RJ market as best (and cheaply) as possible by improving CRJ (NEO?) and continue with Global 7/8000, and 4) after CRJ and GE7/8000 are done, start researching a major redesign based on the Q400. With only one real competitor in the turboprop market, this can be the lowest priority.
 
Oykie
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Re: Next aircraft program at Bombardier

Mon Nov 14, 2016 8:34 pm

From the linked article by the OP:
Bombardier also could develop a new regional jet to position against the re-engined Embraer E-Jet E2 family and the Mitsubishi Regional Jet. Finally, it could address calls by several airliners in recent years for a 90-seat turboprop.
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JoeCanuck
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Re: Next aircraft program at Bombardier

Mon Nov 14, 2016 9:39 pm

Whatever they do, they can't stay still and they don't have the deep pockets to go all new. That means modding what they currently offer.

The CS500 will happen as soon as somebody orders it. It will first be a simple stretch, trading passengers for range which will handily cover 90% or more of the current 738/320 routes.

I think BBD really should take a page out of the 737 handbook. Naysayers have had the 737 killed off for decades now...pretty much since the birth of the 320...yet the goony bird keeps soldiering on. Sure, it has its limitations, but one of the major strikes against it, (it's relatively narrow fuse), still hasn't been a big enough deal to stop sales.

Airlines just don't care all that much about seat width. 17" seats are still just fine for the 737, 777 and 787. People complain...but they keep buying the tickets. So there really isn't a need for BBD to worry about the diameter of the CRJ specifically...as long as they can compete on economics and price.

BBD has made noises about upgrading both the CRJ and Q400...and that would be their best bang for the buck. For the CRJ, basically some aero tweaks, create maximum commonality between the 7/9/1000 models, and use the Passport. So far, it's only customer is the Global program. It's being developed as a rear engine system and GE would probably be on board to do the conversion work to tweak the bizjet engine for maximum airline efficiency.

That would be the most cost effective way to upgrade the CRJ, making it the cheapest, lightest and most fuel efficient aircraft of the bunch. The aircraft already have a modern interior. Maybe they could make the windows a bit bigger but basically, stick with whatever gets it done the quickest and cheapest.

As for the Q400....a simple stretch makes it a distinctively different creature than the ATR. As it is, the Q is significantly overbuilt and over powered in comparison to the ATR, so it might not even need new engines...though GE is drooling to get their newest T-Props on commercial aircraft...and Pratt better watch out.

The -72 would need significantly more work to stretch it to 90-100 seats. The Q could grow to 100 seats considerably easier and it would make an unbeatable 100 seat/500nm aircraft.

More seats means more competitive CASM and BBD has plenty of experience stretching their aircraft. Right now, the Q is essentially the Turbo Prop 73G....basically a hot rod when the market is really looking for a bus. BBD might as well take full advantage of all the capabilities they built into the Q400.

Nobody is interested in buying an all new aircraft when there is much more value in making what you already produce more competitive.
What the...?
 
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KarelXWB
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Re: Next aircraft program at Bombardier

Mon Nov 14, 2016 9:40 pm

Oykie wrote:
Finally, it could address calls by several airliners in recent years for a 90-seat turboprop.


Would that be a turboprop, or a jetliner?
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kitplane01
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Re: Next aircraft program at Bombardier

Mon Nov 14, 2016 10:37 pm

Dash9 wrote:

Let the speculation begin. What could /should by BBD next program once their engineers are done with the global 7K/8K?

'CS500' stretch of the CS300?



That's possible.
Dash9 wrote:
'CS90' shrink of the CS100 to keep a presence in the regional sector as the CRJ is slowly dying?


Shrinking airplanes produces inefficient airplanes. So no.
Dash9 wrote:
CRJ re-engine? What engines? GE Passport? PW800? PW1000C?

A re-engined CRJ would still likely lose to the offerings from Embraer, and the MRJ. So no.
Dash9 wrote:
CRJ replacement? If so how different would it be from the MRJ as it would need to slot under the Cseries?

They would need something noticeably better than the Embraer and Mitsubishi, with the disadvantage of using the same engines and starting second. So no.
Dash9 wrote:
Could they offer to team up with Mitsubishi to help with certification, worldwide support, 2nd FAL @ Mirabel in place of the CRJ line?

No one thinks Mitsubishi needs a second FAL. So no.
Dash9 wrote:
Q400 re-engine with a slower engine option that cost less to procure, operate and maintain?

That makes no sense. Just running the engines at lower power to fly slow would have the same effect, and cost less. Also smaller engines would hurt the gross weight.
Dash9 wrote:
Q400 stretch and shrink to cover 50 to 100 seats?

A Q-400 stretch would maybe work. The market is moving that way, and and the frame is stretchable. They have the industrial capacity to build more. And (strangely) ATR is not (currently) allowed to stretch the ATR-72.
Dash9 wrote:
A new biz jet family to slot under the Global to replaces the venerable Challenger 350/650?

Maybe not. The should have bizjet development people becoming free since their current programs are winding down. The market is medium at best, and the competition is rather strong. Also, cancelling the Learjet 85 says what Bombardier thinks of the market.
Dash9 wrote:
Learjet 85 reborn?

They cancelled it for reasons.
 
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kitplane01
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Re: Next aircraft program at Bombardier

Mon Nov 14, 2016 10:40 pm

JoeCanuck wrote:
That would be the most cost effective way to upgrade the CRJ, making it the cheapest, lightest and most fuel efficient aircraft of the bunch. The aircraft already have a modern interior. Maybe they could make the windows a bit bigger but basically, stick with whatever gets it done the quickest and cheapest.


How would the resulting plane out compete the ERJ and Mitsubishi?

Worse engines, worse aerodynamics, and comes to market last??

And changing the windows would probably be a very large regulatory nightmare.
 
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NameOmitted
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Re: Next aircraft program at Bombardier

Mon Nov 14, 2016 10:49 pm

kitplane01 wrote:
And (strangely) ATR is not (currently) allowed to stretch the ATR-72.


Would you please elaborate on this point?
 
kabq737
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Re: Next aircraft program at Bombardier

Mon Nov 14, 2016 11:27 pm

Dash9 wrote:
CRJ replacement? If so how different would it be from the MRJ as it would need to slot under the Cseries?

nikeson13 wrote:
Or we can see something completely radical, like a MOM model

kabq737 wrote:
Actually kind of an interesting idea. Maybe Bombardier could make an aircraft extremely revolutionary and unlike anything else on offer. That could potentially put them ahead of A and B and help cement them into the Mainline jet market.

BBD is in no condition to launch a brand new model. $1 billion doesn't suddenly change that.[/quote]
I'm not saying they are right now. I mean that maybe say 10 years down the road they need to be the first to the scene with a new revolutionary design so that they can more easily carve out a place for themselves in the market.
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JoeCanuck
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Re: Next aircraft program at Bombardier

Tue Nov 15, 2016 12:35 am

kitplane01 wrote:
JoeCanuck wrote:
That would be the most cost effective way to upgrade the CRJ, making it the cheapest, lightest and most fuel efficient aircraft of the bunch. The aircraft already have a modern interior. Maybe they could make the windows a bit bigger but basically, stick with whatever gets it done the quickest and cheapest.


How would the resulting plane out compete the ERJ and Mitsubishi?

Worse engines, worse aerodynamics, and comes to market last??

And changing the windows would probably be a very large regulatory nightmare.


Actually, the Passport engines are as state of the art as the GTF engines used by the other guys...so, in other words, not worse. Currently, the LEAP engines, on which the Passport are based, are competing quite well with the GTF's on the 320neo.

As well, the CRJ has a lighter airframe and a re-engined model could be developed for a fraction of what the MRJ and E-2's cost to develop, which also means they could be sold cheaper and be at least as cheap to operate. A CRJneo would have significant commonality with the current fleets of CRJ's...which have had all the major bugs worked out for a very long time. As it is, if they started soon enough, a CRJneo could probably make it to market before the MRJ.

The CRJ has never been criticized for having poor aerodynamics...and as for coming to market last....the CRJ's have been flying for decades. Basically, your criticisms, if valid, would have prevented the neo and max from being built.
What the...?
 
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Channex757
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Re: Next aircraft program at Bombardier

Tue Nov 15, 2016 12:59 am

The big problem with the CS500 everyone here drools over (me included as it's a handsome beast even with the short body) is that it plonks BBD into the firing line between Airbus and Boeing.

Boeing have already shown with the UA order they will play hardball in the sector. John Leahy will doubtless do the same if it comes up, with the A319NEO being an actual flying six-abreast aircraft they can leverage onto clients who might kick the CS500 tyres. So the choice is....do BBD look at a project in the regional space or get shot to pieces bidding below cost in the shorthaul airliner sector?

I (for what it's worth) would certainly not bet a billion on the battlefield. BBD should work on something in the space that they used to be such a strong competitor in. Maybe take the CR700 and CR900 and add the GTF motors of the Mitsubishi, which are running well in testing.
 
TUSDawg23
Posts: 272
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Re: Next aircraft program at Bombardier

Tue Nov 15, 2016 1:04 am

Why can't BBD just focus on trying to support and promote the heck out of the C-Series and continue to do the small things right to remain a market leader in the Biz jet sector instead of focusing their efforts on another clean sheet design for the rest of this decade? They had to take a 5 billion dollar loss on the Learjet program, who in Gods name would give them another billion for a new aircraft design? The Canadian Government is like an enabling mother to their child. Just throwing money at something doesn't fix the problem.
 
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intotheair
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Re: Next aircraft program at Bombardier

Tue Nov 15, 2016 2:41 am

Reading that article, I don't see how they could do anything other than upgrade and re-engine the big CRJs. What else can you do with *only* $1 billion? They've also hinted at neo'ing the CRJ by 2020 before. I think it's a necessity that they do that to defend their place in the large RJ market or else they'll lose everything to Embraer.
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GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Next aircraft program at Bombardier

Tue Nov 15, 2016 3:09 am

Passport engines are high compression engines and designed for high Mach, high altitude performance, not RJ work. Plus they are heavy, their weight had to be accounted for on the Global. BBD has sold more business aircraft since the first CRJ than airliners. They need to bring a new Challenger 605 sized plane next--605 cabin a little stretched (24"), new wing for better field performance and 4000nm range at M.83 would be perfect.
 
rocketPower
Posts: 110
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Re: Next aircraft program at Bombardier

Tue Nov 15, 2016 5:08 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Passport engines are high compression engines and designed for high Mach, high altitude performance, not RJ work. Plus they are heavy, their weight had to be accounted for on the Global. BBD has sold more business aircraft since the first CRJ than airliners. They need to bring a new Challenger 605 sized plane next--605 cabin a little stretched (24"), new wing for better field performance and 4000nm range at M.83 would be perfect.


You nailed it, it will likely be a new Challenger. This is the aircraft they need to improve drastically. New engines, leverage the CSeries/Global FBW/flight deck into a next gen architecture they can evolve again to a new airliner later, similar to what Embraer did with Legacy 500->KC390->E2, maybe a CRJneo as many here say. But Challenger will be first, the cabin is already competitive.

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aerolimani
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Re: Next aircraft program at Bombardier

Tue Nov 15, 2016 5:59 am

NameOmitted wrote:
kitplane01 wrote:
And (strangely) ATR is not (currently) allowed to stretch the ATR-72.


Would you please elaborate on this point?


As I understand it, Aerospatiale's parent company, Airbus, sees a stretched ATR-72 as potentially competing with the smaller offerings from the A320 series. Of course, that was from a time when they were hoping to sell the A318. Now, there's no A318, and even the A319NEO is not selling terribly well. Given this, you'd think they might consider green-lighting a stretch of the ATR-72.
 
flyinggoat
Posts: 322
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Re: Next aircraft program at Bombardier

Tue Nov 15, 2016 6:27 am

On the commercial side of things, the CS500 is a given.

The aviation nut in me would really like to see a new generation of CRJs with pusher props and a straighter, longer wing. Think of it as a larger CBA-123. A family of 50, 70, and 90 seat props based on the CRJ would do pretty well, I think.
 
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TripleDelta
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Re: Next aircraft program at Bombardier

Tue Nov 15, 2016 8:03 am

JoeCanuck wrote:
As for the Q400....a simple stretch makes it a distinctively different creature than the ATR. As it is, the Q is significantly overbuilt and over powered in comparison to the ATR, so it might not even need new engines...though GE is drooling to get their newest T-Props on commercial aircraft...and Pratt better watch out.


JoeCanuck wrote:
The Q could grow to 100 seats considerably easier and it would make an unbeatable 100 seat/500nm aircraft.


Stretching the Q400 is not as simple as adding a few extra fuselage frames. Even in its current form, the Dash 8 suffers somewhat from being too long; on landing for example, a 5-6 degree pitch is already cause for alarm, since you'll be scraping your tail along the runway at only 7.5. This doesn't leave much space for a lot of flaring, so you either have to come in with a bit of extra speed, or put her down so hard you'll make carrier pilots cringe. The long fuselage also makes it quite sensitive to disturbance in yaw, making it uncomfortable in turbulence; though this could be mitigated up to a point with a better yaw damper (such as the FBW unit fitted to the CRJ-1000), integrating it its costly. And unless you go for the optional steps on the 2L door (which are nothing to write home about!), deplaning would take a while (the CRJ-900/1000 manage to work with the same restriction, but it's not ideal).

There are also other considerations. The Q400 has two baggage holds, one behind the cockpit and one in the tail, behind the cabin - as far in the extremes of the fuselage as it is possible for them to be. In leisure operations, they're always full; so moving them even further away from the center of gravity will put additional stress on the fuselage, and would likely require reinforcement and an increase in weight (especially when you consider they'd have to be enlarged to cope with the extra baggage). There are also other on-board system considerations (some of which were inherited from the far smaller 300), which would have to be addressed at cost to make them suitable for an even bigger airframe.

The point it, you can - physically - stretch the Q400 to take 100. But is it more trouble than it's worth? Very likely.

Coincidentally, there already is a Q400 configuration seating 90 (!) - but with a number of penalties. Seat pitch is reduced to 28", the forward hold is removed - and the capacity of the aft hold is reduced by approximately 1/3 due to the relocation of the galley: http://commercialaircraft.bombardier.co ... erior.html. However, this configuration works only for business and commuter routes; for leisure operations, 90 passengers and a microscopic boot makes for a lot of unhappy customers :).
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