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KarelXWB
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China warns for trade war that could affect Boeing orders

Tue Nov 15, 2016 10:19 am

China warns that things may become nasty if Trump is going to start a trade war. Global Times speculates that a large number of Boeing orders could be ditched in favor of Airbus aircraft.

Assessing which side would lose most in a trade confrontation is tricky. China can ill afford a massive loss of foreign-exchange earnings. Corporate America is vulnerable to retaliation. The nationalist-leaning Global Times, in an opinion piece, suggested how this might play out: “A batch of Boeing orders will be replaced by Airbus. U.S. auto and iPhone sales in China will suffer a setback, and U.S. soybean and maize imports will be halted.”


Just as Boeing is setting up a 737 completion centre in China, Trump's election comes at a bad time.

Source
http://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-workers ... 1479188319
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Francoflier
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Re: China warns for trade war that could affect Boeing orders

Tue Nov 15, 2016 11:35 am

Trump has to be the first president who I hope breaks every single of his campain promises...

Most of his speeches were contradictory anyway. He wanted to curtail free trade between the US and many countries yet at the same time said he would foster growth and job creation... except the two are incompatible. Well, except in the mind of a Trump voter maybe.

At the end of the day, no one knows what he will do.
Being a so-called businessman, one hopes that he will side with reason eventually and leave trade agreements alone.
I'll do my own airline. With Blackjack. And hookers. In fact, forget the airline.
 
Natflyer
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Re: China warns for trade war that could affect Boeing orders

Tue Nov 15, 2016 11:45 am

And so it begins. Popcorn needed on a grand scale.
 
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keesje
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Re: China warns for trade war that could affect Boeing orders

Tue Nov 15, 2016 11:56 am

Indeed, so it begins. China, Iran, Im-Ex, ..

Defense also. What if the best is not from here and DoD wants it.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
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moo
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Re: China warns for trade war that could affect Boeing orders

Tue Nov 15, 2016 12:13 pm

What many people don't realise about China is that it has a *massive* untapped internal population which could easily replace export customers for Chinese products - China simply accelerates various programs which already exist to raise the standard of living for its poorest populace and they instantly become a growing internal consumer market.

I think a lot of people are going to be surprised about any trade issues, China isn't going to simply fold and die under the weight of sanctions or trade issues, they will end up being stronger than ever in 20 or 30 years.

Don't forget that this is a country that currently tops the worlds production output in things that it basically didn't produce on industrial scales 30 years ago - and I'm not talking about technology goods, I'm talking about fundamentals like steel production (31Million tonnes in 1980, 850Million this year - currently half the worlds production of steel is made by China, and they export a fraction of that, most of it is for domestic consumption).
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: China warns for trade war that could affect Boeing orders

Tue Nov 15, 2016 12:15 pm

Boeing already lost Chinese Narrow Body market to Airbus. Setting up completion center is a last minute face saving measure. Too little too late. While it is setting up Chinese completion center, India will turn into 100% Airbus country.

Warning Trump Administration is the last thing anyone should do. This technique worked for decades but it is not going work now. Long lasting memory is one of the qualities of President elect Trump.
 
klm617
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Re: China warns for trade war that could affect Boeing orders

Tue Nov 15, 2016 1:02 pm

Francoflier wrote:
Trump has to be the first president who I hope breaks every single of his campain promises...

Most of his speeches were contradictory anyway. He wanted to curtail free trade between the US and many countries yet at the same time said he would foster growth and job creation... except the two are incompatible. Well, except in the mind of a Trump voter maybe.

At the end of the day, no one knows what he will do.
Being a so-called businessman, one hopes that he will side with reason eventually and leave trade agreements alone.



It's funny how if we play the game by their rules everything is OK but the second you try to make trade fair for both sides they cry foul. It's about time we stopped allowing this country to flood the market with inferior goods made with cheap labor and undermining the workforce in the rest of the world. I'm sorry but between China and Mexico they have trashed most of the manufacturing jobs in the world
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
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NYCRuss
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Re: China warns for trade war that could affect Boeing orders

Tue Nov 15, 2016 1:06 pm

klm617 wrote:
Francoflier wrote:
Trump has to be the first president who I hope breaks every single of his campain promises...

Most of his speeches were contradictory anyway. He wanted to curtail free trade between the US and many countries yet at the same time said he would foster growth and job creation... except the two are incompatible. Well, except in the mind of a Trump voter maybe.

At the end of the day, no one knows what he will do.
Being a so-called businessman, one hopes that he will side with reason eventually and leave trade agreements alone.



It's funny how if we play the game by their rules everything is OK but the second you try to make trade fair for both sides they cry foul. It's about time we stopped allowing this country to flood the market with inferior goods made with cheap labor and undermining the workforce in the rest of the world. I'm sorry but between China and Mexico they have trashed most of the manufacturing jobs in the world

Automation is responsible for more lost American manufacturing jobs than China and Mexico. You may be able to bring manufacturing back, but most of those jobs are lost forever.
 
BestWestern
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Re: China warns for trade war that could affect Boeing orders

Tue Nov 15, 2016 2:17 pm

The law of unintended consequences shows up again.

The US has more to lose in trade wars than China.

Think of what a boycott of Microsoft, Apple, Boeing, McDonald's'and Starbucks would do to the pension plans of so many Americans.

Whilst the Anglo Saxon view of the world is one of immediate gratification and quarterly results, China and Russia are two moves ahead on the chess board.

The biggest example of this recently is Crimea - and Trump restoring reality with Russia.
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Momo1435
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Re: China warns for trade war that could affect Boeing orders

Tue Nov 15, 2016 2:42 pm

Busy times ahead for all the lobbyist in DC.
 
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Re: China warns for trade war that could affect Boeing orders

Tue Nov 15, 2016 2:51 pm

NYCRuss wrote:
Automation is responsible for more lost American manufacturing jobs than China and Mexico. You may be able to bring manufacturing back, but most of those jobs are lost forever.


It looks like it'll take at least another election cycle for the voters to catch up to this reality.

Either that, or they'll find someone that can make even more outrageous suggestions while still keeping a straight face.
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Sooner787
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Re: China warns for trade war that could affect Boeing orders

Tue Nov 15, 2016 2:53 pm

Wish everyone would just chill out. This is called staking out your position ahead of negotiations to come.

In one corner we have Trump and 45% tariff threat. In the other corner, we have China threatening to cancel
Boeing orders.

When all is said and done, both sides will find a happy middle.
 
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Erebus
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Re: China warns for trade war that could affect Boeing orders

Tue Nov 15, 2016 3:08 pm

Well, they can't cut too much of it.Trimming Boeing orders for Airbus in China could allow Airbus greater leverage on pricing.
 
mham001
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Re: China warns for trade war that could affect Boeing orders

Tue Nov 15, 2016 3:17 pm

Erebus wrote:
Well, they can't cut too much of it.Trimming Boeing orders for Airbus in China could allow Airbus greater leverage on pricing.


Unless whatever restrictions included US avionics and engines.
 
ikramerica
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Re: China warns for trade war that could affect Boeing orders

Tue Nov 15, 2016 3:23 pm

Our foreign policy has been hamstrung by Boeing lobbyists for decades. I'm not saying a trade war is good, but what is good for Boeing and what's good for the entire USA doesn't always line up.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
VSMUT
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Re: China warns for trade war that could affect Boeing orders

Tue Nov 15, 2016 3:36 pm

mham001 wrote:
Erebus wrote:
Well, they can't cut too much of it.Trimming Boeing orders for Airbus in China could allow Airbus greater leverage on pricing.


Unless whatever restrictions included US avionics and engines.


In which case you would soon see moves by Airbus to offer their products without American content. It is one thing to lose access to the Iranian market of some 200-300 planes, quite another to lose access to the Chinese market of nearly 7000 planes.
 
Newbiepilot
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Re: China warns for trade war that could affect Boeing orders

Tue Nov 15, 2016 3:50 pm

VSMUT wrote:
mham001 wrote:
Erebus wrote:
Well, they can't cut too much of it.Trimming Boeing orders for Airbus in China could allow Airbus greater leverage on pricing.


Unless whatever restrictions included US avionics and engines.


In which case you would soon see moves by Airbus to offer their products without American content. It is one thing to lose access to the Iranian market of some 200-300 planes, quite another to lose access to the Chinese market of nearly 7000 planes.


The COMAC 919 has a significant amount of American content starting with the engines and including many of the components. A trade war would stop that plane from flying.

No one wants a trade war. I think trump was just lying to people when he was campaigning. The great trump wall that Mexico was going to pay for is turning into a fence with gaps in it. I don't think Trump is going to follow through with his bluster regarding China. Microsoft, Apple, Boeing, Intel, GM, etc have far too much to lose.
 
Varsity1
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Re: China warns for trade war that could affect Boeing orders

Tue Nov 15, 2016 4:08 pm

China sells commodities (steel, aluminum, mass produced plastics and electronic hardware). A terrible side to be on in a trade war. It can easily be replicated in the U.S. or SE asian neighbors such and Vietnam in no time flat. China losing access to the U.S. credit markets would nuke them domestically. They cannot even manage their own currency without asking for assistance from the Federal Reserve.

Airbus without American content? Airbus will be in the glider business as every jet engine in production has a significant amount of US hardware, even Rolls Royce (Indiana). The avionics in the A320 series are from a Thales USA division.

Anyone on the side of China is on the side of an authoritarian future without human rights.
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VSMUT
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Re: China warns for trade war that could affect Boeing orders

Tue Nov 15, 2016 4:20 pm

Newbiepilot wrote:
The COMAC 919 has a significant amount of American content starting with the engines and including many of the components. A trade war would stop that plane from flying.


Delay it at most. CFM and P&W + most of the other component manufacturers aren't going to sit still and watch their orders run dry. They will just transfer production to other countries and daughter companies (or whatever else they do to avoid sanctions). The CFM LeapX is already half French, and P&W has a very significant Canadian subsidiary. And as much as some want to see the US as an exceptional country, we shouldn't forget that there are tons of engine manufacturers around the world. Rolls Royce, Safran, MTU, Honda, Volvo, all the Russian and Ukrainian companies, IHI and so on. It wouldn't be done in a day, but 4 to 8 years of trade-war between the US and China would be more than suffice to launch non-american alternatives into the market.

:)
 
mham001
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Re: China warns for trade war that could affect Boeing orders

Tue Nov 15, 2016 4:49 pm

BestWestern wrote:
The US has more to lose in trade wars than China.


That seems a bit overstated when the US-Chinese trade deficit so far this year is -$258 BILLION. Last year total was -$367 BILLION. Most people are going to have a hard time understanding why the US would be the big loser in that scenario.

http://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/balance/c5700.html
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: China warns for trade war that could affect Boeing orders

Tue Nov 15, 2016 5:13 pm

People who buy those Chinese made goods seem to think they are getting a good deal. Trade imbalances are a very complicated thing. Simple slogans like good or bad are just that, simplistic.
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Re: China warns for trade war that could affect Boeing orders

Tue Nov 15, 2016 5:14 pm

NYCRuss wrote:
You may be able to bring manufacturing back, but most of those jobs are lost forever.


I love this, and to add; even if manufacturing jobs were to return to the United States, it is not as if those jobs are guaranteed to be profitable, or to produce goods that consumers will be willing to pay a premium for.

So, instead of speaking about jobs, why not speak of wages;

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/05/business/economy/corporate-profits-grow-ever-larger-as-slice-of-economy-as-wages-slide.html?_r=0
The Commerce Department also said total wages and salaries last year amounted to $7.1 trillion, or 42.5 percent of the entire economy. That was down from 42.6 percent in 2012 and was lower than in any year previously measured. Including the cost of employer-paid benefits, like health insurance and pensions, as well as the employer’s share of Social Security and Medicare contributions, the total cost of compensation was $8.9 trillion, or 52.7 percent of G.D.P., down from 53 percent in 2012 and the lowest level since 1948.


If our wages are actually falling, then more and more of us will not be able to fly. This certainly seems like something that someone at Boeing would notice, when running a market anaylsis.

Shall we compare the wage rise in China, during a similar period?

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2014-01-06/china-wages-seen-jumping-in-2014-amid-shift-to-services-
Lu Ting, a Hong Kong-based economist for Bank of America, said in an e-mail that he sees wage growth of 11 percent this year after an estimated 10.7 percent gain in 2013. JPMorgan Chase & Co. and Mizuho Securities Asia Ltd. analysts said in interviews that they predict 10 percent to 15 percent increases.

China’s ruling Communist Party is pushing for pay increases to retain public support and to accelerate the nation’s shift away from polluting and capital-intensive manufacturing to a more services-driven economy. In minimum-wage increases so far announced for 2014, workers in Shenzhen in Guangdong province get a 13 percent boost and the gain for those in Yangzhou, Jiangsu province, is 15.6 percent.


The same market analyst will look upon these numbers and rightly deduct that the wage growth in China, with growth in such high numbers, and with such a massive population, will only see a larger aggregate need for aircraft over the long-term. Does that mean that the US market will need no aircraft? Not at all. Prior to Trump's statements, Boeing could happily live in a World where it could serve both. Now, the can do exactly what Trump said that his victory would defeat - they will realize that missing out in the Chinese market is simply foolish, and greater partner with Chinese companies (albeit covertly, or at least not publicly). The Chinese market is frankly too large, important, and profitable to ignore. Instead of empowering high-paying, high-skilled and highly-asset American workers, already employed in the U.S., and proudly American - we will threathen their jobs, with rhetoric that he will never fully be able to actually realize.

In the meanwhile, Airbus will see increased sales (if only to spite us), indigenous products will see a rise (and an increasing push towards a 'buy local' campaign to further stimulate GDP), and Russian products will become more palatable. Hell, at this point, even Bombardier might be smiling.
 
JoeCanuck
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Re: China warns for trade war that could affect Boeing orders

Tue Nov 15, 2016 5:56 pm

What the Chinese are failing to mention is that if they cut Boeing out of the market, then they can expect to pay significantly more for Airbus products. The only reason they can expect reasonable prices and service from either, is that both are in the market.

China needs to boost airline service domestically and they don't have the ability to build their own aircraft...at least not in numbers required. They are at least a decade away from being able to do so, (I'm thinking longer), and when they can, they will dump western makers anyway.

The best you can hope for from China is to grab as much profit as you can right now...because as soon as they can domestically replace an imported product, they will. If they can use your designs as a basis for their products, all the better for them.
What the...?
 
WIederling
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Re: China warns for trade war that could affect Boeing orders

Tue Nov 15, 2016 6:11 pm

frmrCapCadet wrote:
People who buy those Chinese made goods seem to think they are getting a good deal. Trade imbalances are a very complicated thing. Simple slogans like good or bad are just that, simplistic.


Most of the "value" add for Chinese goods is still made in the US.

Usually the big profits are not in manufacturing. they are in wholesale and retail trade.

What changes is that value percentile of the actual product goes down from 15% to 5%.
Murphy is an optimist
 
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N14AZ
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Re: China warns for trade war that could affect Boeing orders

Tue Nov 15, 2016 6:19 pm

Varsity1 wrote:
Anyone on the side of China is on the side of an authoritarian future without human rights.

Come on, this is a very simplistic statement, isn't it?
 
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keesje
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Re: China warns for trade war that could affect Boeing orders

Tue Nov 15, 2016 6:34 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
Boeing already lost Chinese Narrow Body market to Airbus. Setting up completion center is a last minute face saving measure. Too little too late. While it is setting up Chinese completion center, India will turn into 100% Airbus country.

Warning Trump Administration is the last thing anyone should do. This technique worked for decades but it is not going work now. Long lasting memory is one of the qualities of President elect Trump.


Apparently not. He forgot what he promised his voters already on Obamacare, Obama and Hillary. Unsurprisingly. Extremely short memory.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
JoeCanuck
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Re: China warns for trade war that could affect Boeing orders

Tue Nov 15, 2016 6:38 pm

N14AZ wrote:
Varsity1 wrote:
Anyone on the side of China is on the side of an authoritarian future without human rights.

Come on, this is a very simplistic statement, isn't it?


Simplistic....but not far from the truth. Try find an anti government story on Chinese media. China is essentially a dictatorship and any nods to human rights are at the whim of the government.

That being said...even dictatorships have to appease the populace to some degree. After all, the current government was born from revolution not so long ago.
What the...?
 
lancelot07
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Re: China warns for trade war that could affect Boeing orders

Tue Nov 15, 2016 7:08 pm

N14AZ wrote:
Varsity1 wrote:
Anyone on the side of China is on the side of an authoritarian future without human rights.

Come on, this is a very simplistic statement, isn't it?

It is a simple fact.
China is a one-party state. Right now, they are good capitalists, but not democrats..
Tomorrow, they might wake up being communist again - and some entrepreneurs in gulag.
 
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IslandRob
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Re: China warns for trade war that could affect Boeing orders

Tue Nov 15, 2016 7:27 pm

keesje wrote:
Apparently not. He forgot what he promised his voters already on Obamacare, Obama and Hillary. Unsurprisingly. Extremely short memory.

Let's pray Trump ends up forgetting ALL of the mean-spirited, short-sighted promises he spewed during the campaign and governs like a rational person.

His hardcore backers will howl at the betrayal, but the rest of us will cheer in relief. -ir
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N14AZ
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Re: China warns for trade war that could affect Boeing orders

Tue Nov 15, 2016 7:40 pm

lancelot07 wrote:
N14AZ wrote:
Varsity1 wrote:
Anyone on the side of China is on the side of an authoritarian future without human rights.

Come on, this is a very simplistic statement, isn't it?

It is a simple fact.
China is a one-party state. Right now, they are good capitalists, but not democrats..
Tomorrow, they might wake up being communist again - and some entrepreneurs in gulag.

I was referring to statement "without human rights".
Hmm, maybe it's because of my bad English. "Without human rights"? The "without" like "a 747-200 without winglets" or a A350XWB "without GE-engines"....?
 
lancelot07
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Re: China warns for trade war that could affect Boeing orders

Tue Nov 15, 2016 7:53 pm

Oh, it is not completely without human rights.
Human rights exist in China, as much and as long the party thinks it is in the interest of the state.
No bill of rights or other such burgois nonsense. So yes, it is like in "without winglets" on older planes.
 
SoJo
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Re: China warns for trade war that could affect Boeing orders

Tue Nov 15, 2016 8:07 pm

Hello. My next door neighbours went on holiday to Florida. They brought back some souvenirs for us. They included two mugs with maps of the area on them. Whilst washing them up I noticed something on the bottom... Made in China.... Hmmmm!
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BHXLOVER
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Re: China warns for trade war that could affect Boeing orders

Tue Nov 15, 2016 8:20 pm

Hopefully both sides will quickly realize how much they need each other !!
 
Planesmart
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Re: China warns for trade war that could affect Boeing orders

Tue Nov 15, 2016 10:07 pm

Varsity1 wrote:
China losing access to the U.S. credit markets would nuke them domestically. They cannot even manage their own currency without asking for assistance from the Federal Reserve.


The US losing access to Chinese funding would have a far greater impact. The US credit industry hasn't been creative for decades, unless stupidity followed by almost zero innovation counts. Despite the USD being THE global currency, USA is far from a global credit market leader.
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: China warns for trade war that could affect Boeing orders

Tue Nov 15, 2016 11:51 pm

Trade barriers in the long run tend to reduce growth. They usually do not cause immediate problems. Now a hot trade war is a different matter.
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: China warns for trade war that could affect Boeing orders

Wed Nov 16, 2016 2:01 am

IslandRob wrote:
keesje wrote:
Apparently not. He forgot what he promised his voters already on Obamacare, Obama and Hillary. Unsurprisingly. Extremely short memory.

Let's pray Trump ends up forgetting ALL of the mean-spirited, short-sighted promises he spewed during the campaign and governs like a rational person.

His hardcore backers will howl at the betrayal, but the rest of us will cheer in relief. -ir


He is democrat at heart (or) most progressive republican. I know progressives are not happy, but imagine a Cruz administration.

Sure he will repeal and replace Obamacare, with a new name and couple of changes.
 
lancelot07
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Re: China warns for trade war that could affect Boeing orders

Wed Nov 16, 2016 8:12 am

frmrCapCadet wrote:
Trade barriers in the long run tend to reduce growth. They usually do not cause immediate problems. Now a hot trade war is a different matter.

It would be a good start if China stopped manipulating its currency.
Free trade is good, i am all for it. But right now, we do not have free trade, only free trade of goods.
 
WIederling
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Re: China warns for trade war that could affect Boeing orders

Wed Nov 16, 2016 11:06 am

lancelot07 wrote:
frmrCapCadet wrote:
Trade barriers in the long run tend to reduce growth. They usually do not cause immediate problems. Now a hot trade war is a different matter.

It would be a good start if China stopped manipulating its currency.
Free trade is good, i am all for it. But right now, we do not have free trade, only free trade of goods.


The US does similar things.
The Dollar is artificially propped by its global use an exchange currency.
The FED creates money from thin air. This cheap flood is used to buy real value overseas.
Murphy is an optimist
 
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SomebodyInTLS
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Re: China warns for trade war that could affect Boeing orders

Wed Nov 16, 2016 11:25 am

Varsity1 wrote:
Airbus without American content? Airbus will be in the glider business as every jet engine in production has a significant amount of US hardware, even Rolls Royce (Indiana). The avionics in the A320 series are from a Thales USA division.


Yes, but what you and everyone who pooh-poohs this issue doesn't seem to realise is that the more this kind of talk goes on, the less attractive American components look to Airbus and others. It doesn't mean they'll switch everything en masse overnight - it means that every future purchasing decision will have an increasing aspect of "how much US content does it have and can we line up an alternative for second choice (or even replacement)?"...
"As with most things related to aircraft design, it's all about the trade-offs and much more nuanced than A.net likes to make out."
 
avi8
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Re: China warns for trade war that could affect Boeing orders

Wed Nov 16, 2016 12:36 pm

Francoflier wrote:
Trump has to be the first president who I hope breaks every single of his campain promises...

Most of his speeches were contradictory anyway. He wanted to curtail free trade between the US and many countries yet at the same time said he would foster growth and job creation... except the two are incompatible. Well, except in the mind of a Trump voter maybe.

At the end of the day, no one knows what he will do.
Being a so-called businessman, one hopes that he will side with reason eventually and leave trade agreements alone.



Many people, including myself, believe that free trade and less restrictions end up creating more jobs in the long run. So I don't see how this is contradictory.
avi8

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lancelot07
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Re: China warns for trade war that could affect Boeing orders

Wed Nov 16, 2016 12:53 pm

WIederling wrote:
he US does similar things.
The Dollar is artificially propped by its global use an exchange currency.
The FED creates money from thin air. This cheap flood is used to buy real value overseas.

Fiat money is a fact everywhere on the world.
US-Dollars are traded freely in all free countries of the world. It is widely accepted without any obligation to do so outside the US.
(And i dispute the old contention that this makes the Dollar stronger. Why should it ??)

Chinese currency is not open to trade freely, the chinese government does not allow it. It controls its currency just like the Soviet Union did and some smaller backwards countries still do.
 
lancelot07
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Re: China warns for trade war that could affect Boeing orders

Wed Nov 16, 2016 12:55 pm

avi8 wrote:
[Many people, including myself, believe that free trade and less restrictions end up creating more jobs in the long run. So I don't see how this is contradictory.

Me, too.
But the question is WHERE those jobs are created.

And of course, you have to make sure that all components of free trade are really and truly free. With China, there are issues, not only regarding currency.
The Chinese market is not free for imports, they require you to produce there.
 
mjoelnir
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Re: China warns for trade war that could affect Boeing orders

Wed Nov 16, 2016 3:02 pm

Nobody should forget that it were USA companies moving USA jobs out of the USA. That is it and that is were the culprits should be found. Ask Apple or Nike how many USA production jobs they have. And than have a look at some statistics like GDP in the industrial sector: Germany 30.2% and USA 20.8%. And than think about that manufacturing has usually the better paying jobs than service. That Germany operate in the same global environment as the USA. And that congress the guys responsible for how taxes are collected and for what money has been spent, has been with a republican majority for quite some time.

The idea that somebody, (god perhaps?), has made the rules and the USA got the bad end of the stick, is ludicrous. The USA has been a promoter of globalism. USA big corporation have made enormous amounts of money of that, but it has been easy for quite a while to keep the ordinary USA citizen out of the party, corporate USA has seen about that their share of paying is at the lowest point ever in the USA. And now people chose to believe a man born with a silver spoon in his mouth, a player in this system of corporate USA that makes rich people richer and the middle class poorer, that he can wave his wand and suddenly everything is OK again.
If ordinary citizen well get a bigger part of the cake to be distributed than the people haven always had most of the cake, have to give something up.
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: China warns for trade war that could affect Boeing orders

Wed Nov 16, 2016 3:03 pm

Actually at this time China is keeping its currency at a higher value than it would be otherwise.
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
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Rajahdhani
Posts: 549
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Re: China warns for trade war that could affect Boeing orders

Wed Nov 16, 2016 3:49 pm

avi8 wrote:
Many people, including myself, believe that free trade and less restrictions end up creating more jobs in the long run. So I don't see how this is contradictory.


Maybe common sense is only taught to us, at colleges and universities. Because most economic experts, educated people, (and the fine people at CNN), agree with you.

http://money.cnn.com/2016/03/08/news/economy/donald-trump-trade/index.html
He wants to put a tax on Chinese and Mexican goods like clothing coming into the United States to level the playing field and bring back middle class jobs. He's said the tax could be as high as 35 or 45%. Economists warn this would ignite a trade war and could cause a recession. China and Mexico and possibly other nations would respond by putting taxes on U.S. goods and services. It would also make a lot of everyday items more expensive for Americans.


Why do I speak to this article, here's another tidbit;
http://money.cnn.com/2016/03/08/news/economy/donald-trump-trade/index.html
Many of his products are made outside the United States. Most Donald J. Trump ties are made in China. Some Donald J. Trump suits are also made in China.
Donald J. Trump signature men's dress shirts are made in China, Bangladesh or "imported," meaning they were made abroad.
And it's not just Donald's products. Harvard professor and trade expert Robert Lawrence analyzed over 800 items in the Ivanka Trump fashion line. There are shoes, dresses, purses and scarves. All are "imported."
The top five countries that America imports clothing from are China (by far the leader), India, Vietnam, Pakistan and Mexico.


So, his (and now, as a 'blind trust' administered partly by Ivanka); has proven history of taking advantage of low Chinese wages, low environment protections, and low taxes - to produce good that are then sold for a profit, on the American market. You know, irony is perhaps only the purview of the intelligent, and for the average 'Trump' voters - this must be 'smart'.
 
klm617
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Re: China warns for trade war that could affect Boeing orders

Wed Nov 16, 2016 4:37 pm

lancelot07 wrote:
avi8 wrote:
[Many people, including myself, believe that free trade and less restrictions end up creating more jobs in the long run. So I don't see how this is contradictory.

Me, too.
But the question is WHERE those jobs are created.

And of course, you have to make sure that all components of free trade are really and truly free. With China, there are issues, not only regarding currency.
The Chinese market is not free for imports, they require you to produce there.



The jobs are created in third world countries that future bolster the agenda of their tyrant leaders. If any jobs are created in the US or Western Europe they don't pay near as much as all the manufacturing jobs that were lost to China, Mexico, Korea and Bangladesh. Thinking more livable paying jobs are created from free trade is just drinking the kool aid you are being given. The fact is both Clinton and Trump both got rich on the backs of the low paid hard working Chinese people..
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 8425
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Re: China warns for trade war that could affect Boeing orders

Wed Nov 16, 2016 5:55 pm

klm617 wrote:
lancelot07 wrote:
avi8 wrote:
[Many people, including myself, believe that free trade and less restrictions end up creating more jobs in the long run. So I don't see how this is contradictory.

Me, too.
But the question is WHERE those jobs are created.

And of course, you have to make sure that all components of free trade are really and truly free. With China, there are issues, not only regarding currency.
The Chinese market is not free for imports, they require you to produce there.



The jobs are created in third world countries that future bolster the agenda of their tyrant leaders. If any jobs are created in the US or Western Europe they don't pay near as much as all the manufacturing jobs that were lost to China, Mexico, Korea and Bangladesh. Thinking more livable paying jobs are created from free trade is just drinking the kool aid you are being given. The fact is both Clinton and Trump both got rich on the backs of the low paid hard working Chinese people..


All that does not explain why the USA trails a Western European country like Germany in manufacturing percentage of GDP and absolute exports, while having a more than double foot print in carbon oxide per person. Some western countries kept there manufacturing capabilities and not by closing down the borders.
 
Varsity1
Posts: 1940
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Re: China warns for trade war that could affect Boeing orders

Thu Nov 17, 2016 12:55 am

mjoelnir wrote:
klm617 wrote:
lancelot07 wrote:
Me, too.
But the question is WHERE those jobs are created.

And of course, you have to make sure that all components of free trade are really and truly free. With China, there are issues, not only regarding currency.
The Chinese market is not free for imports, they require you to produce there.



The jobs are created in third world countries that future bolster the agenda of their tyrant leaders. If any jobs are created in the US or Western Europe they don't pay near as much as all the manufacturing jobs that were lost to China, Mexico, Korea and Bangladesh. Thinking more livable paying jobs are created from free trade is just drinking the kool aid you are being given. The fact is both Clinton and Trump both got rich on the backs of the low paid hard working Chinese people..


All that does not explain why the USA trails a Western European country like Germany in manufacturing percentage of GDP and absolute exports, while having a more than double foot print in carbon oxide per person. Some western countries kept there manufacturing capabilities and not by closing down the borders.



Germany is leading the fight against Chinese acquisitions abroad. The Germans might not like Trump's policies, but they do have a commonly sought goal, protectionist policies.

https://www.ft.com/content/f1b3e52e-99b0-11e6-8f9b-70e3cabccfae
"PPRuNe will no longer allow discussions regarding Etihad Airlines, its employees, executives, agents, or other representatives. Such threads will be deleted." - ME3 thug airlines suing anyone who brings negative information public..
 
Varsity1
Posts: 1940
Joined: Mon May 02, 2016 4:55 am

Re: China warns for trade war that could affect Boeing orders

Thu Nov 17, 2016 12:59 am

SomebodyInTLS wrote:
Varsity1 wrote:
Airbus without American content? Airbus will be in the glider business as every jet engine in production has a significant amount of US hardware, even Rolls Royce (Indiana). The avionics in the A320 series are from a Thales USA division.


Yes, but what you and everyone who pooh-poohs this issue doesn't seem to realise is that the more this kind of talk goes on, the less attractive American components look to Airbus and others. It doesn't mean they'll switch everything en masse overnight - it means that every future purchasing decision will have an increasing aspect of "how much US content does it have and can we line up an alternative for second choice (or even replacement)?"...



The Russians have partnered with American manufacturers amidst much larger political uncertainty (superjet 100 and Boeing). Even with Trump's rhetoric, U.S. companies are some of the easiest to partner with in the world.
"PPRuNe will no longer allow discussions regarding Etihad Airlines, its employees, executives, agents, or other representatives. Such threads will be deleted." - ME3 thug airlines suing anyone who brings negative information public..
 
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SQ22
Moderator
Posts: 1325
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2012 9:29 am

Re: China warns for trade war that could affect Boeing orders

Sat Nov 19, 2016 12:31 pm

Varsity1 wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
klm617 wrote:

Germany is leading the fight against Chinese acquisitions abroad. The Germans might not like Trump's policies, but they do have a commonly sought goal, protectionist policies.

https://www.ft.com/content/f1b3e52e-99b0-11e6-8f9b-70e3cabccfae


I have to disagree. They would like to have the same possibilities like Chinese companies have in Germany, resp. European Union.

http://fortune.com/2016/10/29/germany-c ... -takeover/

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