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atcsundevil
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Phoenix-Mesa Gateway to get flights from Canada

Wed Nov 16, 2016 8:56 pm

A new Canadian travel company plans to launch service between Phoenix-Mesa Gateway Airport and two Canadian cities in January.

The charter flights from Calgary and Edmonton, Alberta, the airport's first international routes, will be sold by NewLeaf Travel Co. and operated by Canadian charter carrier Flair Airlines.

The seasonal flights, offered through April, are aimed at Canadians seeking a retreat from winter. The only tickets for sale on NewLeaf's website are trips that begin in Canada.

Flights from Calgary will operate three days a week beginning Jan. 19. Once-a-week service from Edmonton begins Jan. 21. Fares on each route start at $198 Canadian, round trip, in January. That's just under $150 U.S. at today's exchange rate. Flights in February and March top $300 Canadian.


Good for IWA. Hopefully this is a precursor to some increased service from more than the likes of Allegiant. This should be convenient for a huge number of Canadian snowbirds who live in the east valley.

Source:
http://www.azcentral.com/story/travel/a ... /93967714/

Update: WestJet has announced they will similarly provide service to Phoenix-Mesa Gateway from Calgary and Edmonton with the same start dates as New Leaf.
 
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dabpit
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Re: Phoenix-Mesa Gateway to get flights from Canada

Wed Nov 16, 2016 9:47 pm

Glad to see this announced. Phoenix-Mesa (AZA) is an excellent airport to travel through. I hope they attract other airlines besides G$.
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atcsundevil
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Re: Phoenix-Mesa Gateway to get flights from Canada

Thu Nov 17, 2016 12:15 am

dabpit wrote:
Glad to see this announced. Phoenix-Mesa (AZA) is an excellent airport to travel through. I hope they attract other airlines besides G$.

Agreed. There's a lot of potential here, but they really need to catch a few breaks. They need to land some permanent new tenants (more stable than F9 and NK ever would have been) so they can finally get moving on their new terminal complex. It is needed, but they can't rely on G4 as the sole tenant.
 
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11725Flyer
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Re: Phoenix-Mesa Gateway to get flights from Canada

Thu Nov 17, 2016 12:51 am

atcsundevil wrote:
dabpit wrote:
Glad to see this announced. Phoenix-Mesa (AZA) is an excellent airport to travel through. I hope they attract other airlines besides G$.

Agreed. There's a lot of potential here, but they really need to catch a few breaks. They need to land some permanent new tenants (more stable than F9 and NK ever would have been) so they can finally get moving on their new terminal complex. It is needed, but they can't rely on G4 as the sole tenant.


Totally disagree. Canada flights are disappearing every day due to the forex issue.
 
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atcsundevil
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Re: Phoenix-Mesa Gateway to get flights from Canada

Thu Nov 17, 2016 12:54 am

11725Flyer wrote:
atcsundevil wrote:
dabpit wrote:
Glad to see this announced. Phoenix-Mesa (AZA) is an excellent airport to travel through. I hope they attract other airlines besides G$.

Agreed. There's a lot of potential here, but they really need to catch a few breaks. They need to land some permanent new tenants (more stable than F9 and NK ever would have been) so they can finally get moving on their new terminal complex. It is needed, but they can't rely on G4 as the sole tenant.


Totally disagree. Canada flights are disappearing every day due to the forex issue.

What is it that you disagree with? I was referring to potential of the airport, not the potential of occasional charter flights from Canada.
 
airzona11
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Re: Phoenix-Mesa Gateway to get flights from Canada

Thu Nov 17, 2016 1:26 am

This is exciting news for AZA. It is about as easy, simple and pleasant of an airport to travel as there is.
 
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jnev3289
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Re: Phoenix-Mesa Gateway to get flights from Canada

Thu Nov 17, 2016 3:46 am

How long will NewLeaf be around to actually operate these flights?
 
IPFreely
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Re: Phoenix-Mesa Gateway to get flights from Canada

Thu Nov 17, 2016 3:57 am

jnev3289 wrote:
How long will NewLeaf be around to actually operate these flights?


NewLeaf is a virtual airline. They don't operate any flights, they just sell tickets and contract a charter airline to operate the flights. They're selling tickets now; whether they are still around or have money to pay anyone to operate the flights when the time comes is a good question.
 
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Re: Phoenix-Mesa Gateway to get flights from Canada

Thu Nov 17, 2016 4:59 am

Viability is hard to say. They have a lot to compete with in WestJet, but IWA/AZA is likely an appealing prospect to those living in the far East Valley. There are dozens of neighborhoods in Mesa, Gilbert, Queen Creek, and San Tan Valley that cater specifically to Canadian snowbirds. Assuming the airline they charter with can keep flights on time and offer decent service, it might have a chance.

Either way, it'll be an interesting new chapter in the airport's life. It will be very telling if the airport manages to sustain international service on some level. My understanding is that the Bellingham flight has always been successful (it was one of G4's early adds), so it might have a chance. The airport needs opportunities like this, because one of these days, it might prove its worth to take things to the next step.
 
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dabpit
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Re: Phoenix-Mesa Gateway to get flights from Canada

Thu Nov 17, 2016 3:32 pm

atcsundevil wrote:
They need to land some permanent new tenants (more stable than F9 and NK ever would have been) so they can finally get moving on their new terminal complex. It is needed, but they can't rely on G4 as the sole tenant.


F9 and NK are stable airlines. I would like to see F9 go back to AZA.
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Re: Phoenix-Mesa Gateway to get flights from Canada

Thu Nov 17, 2016 8:27 pm

dabpit wrote:
F9 and NK are stable airlines. I would like to see F9 go back to AZA.

I didn't mean unstable as in financially unstable, I meant unstable in the sense that they're known for somewhat unpredictable decisions. F9 made a big gamble by trying to serve both Phoenix airports, and they have had a tendency in recent years to throw darts at the board and see what sticks. NK has been more consistent, but I always saw IWA service as an informal tryout for serving PHX anyway.
 
777PHX
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Re: Phoenix-Mesa Gateway to get flights from Canada

Fri Nov 18, 2016 12:27 am

airzona11 wrote:
This is exciting news for AZA. It is about as easy, simple and pleasant of an airport to travel as there is.


I don't know that I'd go that far. Last time I flew through AZA, I spent about an hour waiting in the security line and that was midafternoon on a Weds.

I wish AZA the best, but unless its a cheap flight to Vegas, I'm gonna pass.
 
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Re: Phoenix-Mesa Gateway to get flights from Canada

Fri Nov 18, 2016 5:27 pm

777PHX wrote:

I don't know that I'd go that far.


Doesn't change the fact that it is a nice, clean, new airport terminal. Allegiant is a whole different story.
 
cylw
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Re: Phoenix-Mesa Gateway to get flights from Canada

Fri Nov 18, 2016 11:16 pm

WestJet not giving NewLeaf any breaks.

WestJet welcomes Mesa, Arizona, to its growing network

http://westjet2.mediaroom.com/index.php?s=43&item=1188
 
ryan78
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Re: Phoenix-Mesa Gateway to get flights from Canada

Sat Nov 19, 2016 12:02 am

cylw wrote:
WestJet not giving NewLeaf any breaks.

WestJet welcomes Mesa, Arizona, to its growing network.


Sigh :roll: This is the way it goes in Canada unfortunately... The last time we had a successful airline startup was Westjet in 1996/97, it's been 20 years! Both Air Canada & Westjet give these new airlines a few months to see if they last and which destinations they are targeting then one of them adds routes or increases capacity and drops the fares through the floor to undercut the new competition until they can't keep up anymore. AC & WJ own a Duopoly in Canada and it sucks! Westjet already serves Phoenix PHX extensively with something like 10 different destinations from PHX, the fact that they are adding Mesa is a direct blow to NewLeaf. At least Flair doesn't have all their eggs in the NewLeaf basket, they have 3 airplanes operating 7-8 flights a week this winter on behalf of Air Transat.
 
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Re: Phoenix-Mesa Gateway to get flights from Canada

Sat Nov 19, 2016 12:16 am

:bigthumbsup: Congrats to Westjet. An actual airline starting service from Alberta to Mesa.
 
777PHX
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Re: Phoenix-Mesa Gateway to get flights from Canada

Sat Nov 19, 2016 5:41 pm

airzona11 wrote:
777PHX wrote:

I don't know that I'd go that far.


Doesn't change the fact that it is a nice, clean, new airport terminal. Allegiant is a whole different story.


Simple and pleasant aren't two words I'd use to describe AZA, but your mileage may vary. Clearly, I wasn't commenting on G4, but the airport itself.
 
777PHX
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Re: Phoenix-Mesa Gateway to get flights from Canada

Sat Nov 19, 2016 5:43 pm

910A wrote:
:bigthumbsup: Congrats to Westjet. An actual airline starting service from Alberta to Mesa.


Just long enough to stomp Newleaf out of the market where upon they'll pull out. This is not a good thing.
 
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Re: Phoenix-Mesa Gateway to get flights from Canada

Sat Nov 19, 2016 5:56 pm

777PHX wrote:
910A wrote:
:bigthumbsup: Congrats to Westjet. An actual airline starting service from Alberta to Mesa.


Just long enough to stomp Newleaf out of the market where upon they'll pull out. This is not a good thing.


We been down this road before with these fake airlines here at Williams-Gateway. 10-15 years ago there was some company that used Xtra Airlines planes to start 3x week service to Rockford, can't remember the name of it and then there was New Western also operated by Xtra (www.iflywestern.com) that lasted a few weeks back in 2006.

As for Westjet four flights a week, will be a good test for them.
 
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Re: Phoenix-Mesa Gateway to get flights from Canada

Sat Nov 19, 2016 7:13 pm

WJ has about $1.4b of unencumbered cash in the bank, 46 consecutive quarters of profitability and a fleet pushing 140 tails.

I doubt New Leaf has $1m of unencumbered cash available to them.

WJA be in AZA for as long as it makes sense for them to be in AZA.
 
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Re: Phoenix-Mesa Gateway to get flights from Canada

Sat Nov 19, 2016 9:12 pm

Great for IWA! Too bad for NewLeaf though.
 
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Re: Phoenix-Mesa Gateway to get flights from Canada

Sat Nov 19, 2016 9:57 pm

Flair Air just needs to subsidize flights until oil turns around. I used to fly on their planes within the Shell and other networks out of Calgary, which I assume is their normal revenue stream.
 
jimbo737
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Re: Phoenix-Mesa Gateway to get flights from Canada

Sun Nov 20, 2016 4:34 am

Jim Rogers isn't going to subsidize any of Flair's flights. He'll only operate the flights if he's been paid in advance for them. He's no dummy.

If South Beach Investments want to spend their money subsidizing airfares for a few more months instead of using it to actually improve the lot of their community, that's their business. The noise you hear is the sound of indigenous money being flushed down the toilet.

I can't imagine the gang in MSP are too happy with their investment thus far either.
 
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Re: Phoenix-Mesa Gateway to get flights from Canada

Sun Nov 20, 2016 5:29 am

Remember when WS used to cry foul over big bad AC employing predatory practices on them. Now when WS are the predators they dub themselves the 'reliable leaders '. I hope that a complaint is filed to the competition bureau over this one.
 
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Re: Phoenix-Mesa Gateway to get flights from Canada

Sun Nov 20, 2016 9:28 am

Who knew that Gateway would go from zero international airlines to two in as many days? Pretty amazing. WestJet will obviously win out here though, not least of which because it's a known quantity for many Canadians flying to/from their winter homes here. If/when New Leaf fails, I hope WestJet at least sticks around. They've been successful at PHX, so let's see if they can do what Frontier couldn't and make a split operation work. Interesting times indeed.
 
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Re: Phoenix-Mesa Gateway to get flights from Canada

Sun Nov 20, 2016 2:51 pm

What's predatory?

WJ has had 46 consecutive quarters of profitable operstions, all verified by audited financial statements. Since their first full quarter of operations in 1996, I think they've had just 3 quarters where they lost money.

Predatory insinuates that a company is prepared to lose money in order to put another out of business. When WJ accused AC of predatory activity in the late 90's, AC was losing buckets of money on a quarterly basis, every quarter. It wasn't easy for AC to claim "hey, we're not predatory!" when the business was bleeding cash every month. And even then, that case was fought to a standstill.

It's hard to be accused of being "predatory" when the operation is profitable every quarter.

Besides, the GOC have made it very clear in recent weeks they want to see more competition in the marketplace. They've even gone to the extent of allowing potential startups the ability to draw up to 49% of their capital from international sources, vs just 25% for the incumbent airlines. They want completion? They've got it. Now it's a case of letting the market decide. There's nothing to prevent New Leaf from filling all Flair Air's capacity, even at their obviously highly profitable $19 fares, including all taxes and fees, for 2 stop coast to coast flight. Fill yer boots, boys.

WJ was able to survive and thrive when competing against 2 scheduled carriers (AC and CP from '96 to late '99), 3 charter carriers, (C3000, Royal, Transat) and a slew of other startups, (Vistajet, Greyhound, Jetsgo etc). At one point in '97, AirBC / AC matched virtually every WJ flight with their 146's for about a year.

If New Leaf isn't robust enough to handle a little competition, it's not WJ's fault. It's New Leaf's fault for a devising plan that relies on balancing on the head of a pin to survive.
 
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Re: Phoenix-Mesa Gateway to get flights from Canada

Sun Nov 20, 2016 5:07 pm

jimbo737 wrote:
What's predatory?

WJ has had 46 consecutive quarters of profitable operstions, all verified by audited financial statements. Since their first full quarter of operations in 1996, I think they've had just 3 quarters where they lost money.

Predatory insinuates that a company is prepared to lose money in order to put another out of business. When WJ accused AC of predatory activity in the late 90's, AC was losing buckets of money on a quarterly basis, every quarter. It wasn't easy for AC to claim "hey, we're not predatory!" when the business was bleeding cash every month. And even then, that case was fought to a standstill.

It's hard to be accused of being "predatory" when the operation is profitable every quarter.

Besides, the GOC have made it very clear in recent weeks they want to see more competition in the marketplace. They've even gone to the extent of allowing potential startups the ability to draw up to 49% of their capital from international sources, vs just 25% for the incumbent airlines. They want completion? They've got it. Now it's a case of letting the market decide. There's nothing to prevent New Leaf from filling all Flair Air's capacity, even at their obviously highly profitable $19 fares, including all taxes and fees, for 2 stop coast to coast flight. Fill yer boots, boys.

WJ was able to survive and thrive when competing against 2 scheduled carriers (AC and CP from '96 to late '99), 3 charter carriers, (C3000, Royal, Transat) and a slew of other startups, (Vistajet, Greyhound, Jetsgo etc). At one point in '97, AirBC / AC matched virtually every WJ flight with their 146's for about a year.

If New Leaf isn't robust enough to handle a little competition, it's not WJ's fault. It's New Leaf's fault for a devising plan that relies on balancing on the head of a pin to survive.

The people calling this predatory are basing their judgement off of the assumption that WS will not make profit off of that flight which could very well be the case. They have been a profitable organization for 46 quarters, so they do have some money lying around and can afford to lose a little money if it means killing off a possible lower cost competitor. I think the fact that WA announced this route so soon after NewLeaf did shows this to be the case. They didn't fly to Mesa before as they already flew to PHX. It is possible they have at some point evaluated Mesa and decided there was no money to be made there, but when NewLeaf starts offering that route WS sees an opportunity to beat them and jumps on the route as well. Seems very likely to me that this is exactly what's going on and it seems anti-competitive to me.
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Re: Phoenix-Mesa Gateway to get flights from Canada

Sun Nov 20, 2016 6:55 pm

Anyone else find this odd that a couple days after New Leaf/Flair announce YEG/YYC-IWA, that WestJet announces the same routing and days of the week too? Can International airlines just startup flights whenever they want, or does communication with the government and airport need to be something that's been in the works for longer than 3 days? On a side note, I really REALLY hope that WestJet and New Leaf DO NOT USE the current ground staff at Gateway Airport. If so, expect your bags to take about 45 minutes to 1 hour to be delivered.
 
jimbo737
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Re: Phoenix-Mesa Gateway to get flights from Canada

Sun Nov 20, 2016 7:33 pm

Would you be happier if WJ announced flights on Tuesdays and Wednesdays leaving Calgary at 10pm and AZA at 6:00am?

I don't find it unusual that WJ would commence operations in a new market with a 60 days advance notice after Xmas, when all lift is fully encumbered and heavily booked.

Operating to the Phoenix area on peak days, (Thurs thru Sundays), strikes me as a good business decision.

WJ has about 10 years of data knowing their customers zip codes are. They already know what that market will look like from Jan thru mid April.

WJ is not known for operating routes that lose money.
 
777PHX
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Re: Phoenix-Mesa Gateway to get flights from Canada

Sun Nov 20, 2016 8:01 pm

Yeah, I live out in the east valley a few minutes away from Gateway. There are a metric shit ton of Canadians out here and snowbirds in general. I have no doubt the route will be a success.
 
AvroLanc
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Re: Phoenix-Mesa Gateway to get flights from Canada

Mon Nov 21, 2016 12:50 am

Our beloved duopoly will never allow competition. What ever the cost they will fly any route, even at a loss to reduce load for competition. Onward with the high airfares for Canadians.
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Re: Phoenix-Mesa Gateway to get flights from Canada

Mon Nov 21, 2016 2:14 am

AvroLanc wrote:
Our beloved duopoly will never allow competition. What ever the cost they will fly any route, even at a loss to reduce load for competition. Onward with the high airfares for Canadians.


This thread involves a transborder route. Canada-U.S. certainly isn't a duopoly. Any U.S. carrier is free to start service in any transborder market under the very liberal Open Skies agreement between the two countries.

And even looking only at the domestic market, how many countries with populations similar to Canada (about 35 million) have more than 2 major carriers on domestic routes? Many countries with much larger populations don't have more than 2 major domestic carriers.
 
jimbo737
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Re: Phoenix-Mesa Gateway to get flights from Canada

Mon Nov 21, 2016 2:50 pm

WJ has been operating into so called secondary airports for almost 20 years. YXX in 1997. YBR the first time around in 1998 and then again in 2014, YHM in 1999, SNA for about 5 years now.

AZA is more of the same.
 
AvroLanc
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Re: Phoenix-Mesa Gateway to get flights from Canada

Mon Nov 21, 2016 3:11 pm

Viscount724 wrote:
AvroLanc wrote:
Our beloved duopoly will never allow competition. What ever the cost they will fly any route, even at a loss to reduce load for competition. Onward with the high airfares for Canadians.


This thread involves a transborder route. Canada-U.S. certainly isn't a duopoly. Any U.S. carrier is free to start service in any transborder market under the very liberal Open Skies agreement between the two countries.

And even looking only at the domestic market, how many countries with populations similar to Canada (about 35 million) have more than 2 major carriers on domestic routes? Many countries with much larger populations don't have more than 2 major domestic carriers.


My point was not about transborder routes, I would agree with you on that. However I believe WJ just announced service from YHM to three destinations starting mid January 2017. I doubt its a coincidence that all three routes are currently serviced by NewLeaf from YHM. My only hope is that these YHM services stay once the inevitable happens.

However I am thankful for the increased utilization of a much underused airport.
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ryan78
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Re: Phoenix-Mesa Gateway to get flights from Canada

Mon Nov 21, 2016 3:52 pm

Viscount724 wrote:
And even looking only at the domestic market, how many countries with populations similar to Canada (about 35 million) have more than 2 major carriers on domestic routes? Many countries with much larger populations don't have more than 2 major domestic carriers.


Australia, population 23 million, is very similar to Canada in a sense of a small population spread over a very large country with big cities relatively far from each other. They have Qantas, Jetstar, Virgin Australia, & Tigerair. And you could arguably add Airnorth & REX, two smaller regional airlines that are very important. Compare that to Canada, population 35 million, and the only airlines that really serve domestic would be Air Canada & Westjet, and I would group Porter in there as well too.
 
jimbo737
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Re: Phoenix-Mesa Gateway to get flights from Canada

Mon Nov 21, 2016 4:27 pm

Qantas and Jetstar are basically the same airline with a different paint job.

Tiger Air is part of the Virgin Australia group.

Rex is basically a 34 seat Saab 340 operator with about 55 tails
and Air North has a total of 14 tails.

You aren't exactly making a compelling case about the competitive virtues of the domestic Australian market.

WJ's AZA schedule allows for full network connectivity over YYC. That will allow WS to sell AZA to about 15 cities in Western Canada, and more should people from Ontario decide to forgo the YYZ n/s to PHX, though I doubt many would do that.

New Leaf is pure O&D with 150 seats to fill.

I'm pretty sure I know which horse I'll be placing my money on.
 
Dominion301
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Re: Phoenix-Mesa Gateway to get flights from Canada

Mon Nov 21, 2016 4:36 pm

yvphx wrote:
Anyone else find this odd that a couple days after New Leaf/Flair announce YEG/YYC-IWA, that WestJet announces the same routing and days of the week too? Can International airlines just startup flights whenever they want, or does communication with the government and airport need to be something that's been in the works for longer than 3 days? On a side note, I really REALLY hope that WestJet and New Leaf DO NOT USE the current ground staff at Gateway Airport. If so, expect your bags to take about 45 minutes to 1 hour to be delivered.


It's not odd at all. It's totally predatory behaviour. If tiny NewLeaf were launching AZA and WS were already there or if WS announced their arrival a year after New Leaf's, that's competition. But when WS announce the exact same routes as NewLeaf within days of each other, it's quite obvious what they're up to (i.e. Goliath attempting to slay David) to maintain their comfortable duopoly.
 
ryan78
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Re: Phoenix-Mesa Gateway to get flights from Canada

Mon Nov 21, 2016 11:33 pm

jimbo737 wrote:
Qantas and Jetstar are basically the same airline with a different paint job.

Tiger Air is part of the Virgin Australia group.

Rex is basically a 34 seat Saab 340 operator with about 55 tails
and Air North has a total of 14 tails.

You aren't exactly making a compelling case about the competitive virtues of the domestic Australian market.


4 vs 2... How is that not a compelling argument? I could pair REX and Porter in the same category, 34 seats x 55 tails = 1870 seats, Porter 74 seats x 26 tails = 1924 seats. Sure I know Jetstar is owned by Qantas and Tigerair owned by Virgin but it doesn't change the fact that they operate with completely different business models. They are completely separate entities. Now in Canada you have Air Canada Rouge which is a low cost operator (not low cost carrier) Rouge fares are essentially 5-10% cheaper than mainline AC fares but the operating costs are significantly lower then mainline AC, hence why they are turning incredible profits.

As a comparison lets say I'm flying from Sydney to Brisbane and Toronto to Montreal.

I have 4 options to choose from, Qantas (Full Service), Jetstar (LCC), Virgin (I Guess Leisure?) and Tigerair (LCC).
Between those 4 airlines they offer 52 flights from SYD to BNE today.
The cheapest fare SYD-BNE 3 weeks away is $58 CAD from Jetstar.
SYD Population, 4.29 million, BNE population 2.09 million.

I'm flying from Toronto to Montreal, a similar distance from SYD to BNE, actually a couple hundred km shorter.
I have 2 options to choose from, Air Canada (Full Service) or Westjet (Claim to be LCC but they aren't)
Between them they offer 31 flights from YYZ-YUL today.
The cheapest fare YYZ-YUL 3 weeks away is $118 CAD from both Westjet & Air Canada.
YYZ Population, 6.05 million, YUL Population 3.82 million.

It's half the price flying to BNE then to YUL, and BNE is a longer sector by about 200km and less population on both ends. If Australia can have 2 true LCC's with 10 million less people, Canada should be able to manage at least one, but the problem is our extremely high airport taxes and fees and the AC/WJ duopoly that push all these new airlines out with ease.
 
jimbo737
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Re: Phoenix-Mesa Gateway to get flights from Canada

Tue Nov 22, 2016 12:21 am

Lets be clear:

The cheapest fare for a flight a YYZ-YUL flight a few weeks out, ie Weds Dec 7th by the airlines in Canada is c$70 + a myriad of flow thru taxes and fees, none of which go to the airline itself. The airline pockets c$70.

The Jetstar fare on SYD-BNE is A$65. The currency is basically par so we're talking a $5 difference. The rest is all Canadian direct taxation, and charging for now privatized government services.

Trying to compare those fares, that are $5 apart, and not knowing anything about Australia's taxation policy vis a vis all of an airline's cost inputs such as fuel excise taxes, the level of payroll taxes or whether Australia charges airports enormous land rents as is done in Canada that only increase the costs of operating an airline in Canada is a fool's game.

It is well known Canada's aviation industry is the the highest taxed in the western world. Having to endure all that and managing to keep the actual raw fares within $5 of each other, is a hell of an achievement.

Besides, even a cursory look at Virgin Australia's financial statements is evidence enough that the current situation is not sustainable.

As for AC's "incredible profits", you are sorely mistaken. Year to date AC was the worst operating margins of any publicly traded airline in North America, and significantly behind WJ's profit margins. If Rouge was as "successful" as you claim, that would certainly not be the case.

Add $25 per bbl to the price of oil and things go upside down pretty quickly.

Even Delta, with YTD margins way higher than AC, has already stated that routes added that made sense at $40 oil make no sense with $50 oil.

If New Leaf have a viable business plan, they'll have no problem holding their own against the 2 major incumbents. WJ was able to handle as many as 5 domestic competitors on various routes over its first 4+ years of operations. All of the competitors ultimately declared bankruptcy and many of them folded.

If New Leaf can't handle it, the only fault is their own for a pathetically weak business model.
 
ryan78
Posts: 359
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Re: Phoenix-Mesa Gateway to get flights from Canada

Tue Nov 22, 2016 12:59 am

jimbo737 wrote:
Trying to compare those fares, that are $5 apart, and not knowing anything about Australia's taxation policy vis a vis all of an airline's cost inputs such as fuel excise taxes, the level of payroll taxes or whether Australia charges airports enormous land rents as is done in Canada that only increase the costs of operating an airline in Canada is a fool's game.


I believe this was the original question?

Viscount724 wrote:
And even looking only at the domestic market, how many countries with populations similar to Canada (about 35 million) have more than 2 major carriers on domestic routes? Many countries with much larger populations don't have more than 2 major domestic carriers.


My answer was simply Australia. Australia has 4 major domestic airlines, Is that correct or not? I am familiar with the taxes in Canada yes, I know that $45 of that $118 Westjet fare is for taxes, fees and charges as per Westjet. Jetstar does not disclose these "taxes & fees" rather showing a total fare of $58. The point I was trying to make was purely from a consumer standpoint. I've been in the industry a while and know there are so many variables involved with everyday operation and it is hard to make a calculated statement unless one is involved with that stuff in depth on a daily basis. I simply took information available to everyone in order to compare similar flights in Canada Vs. Australia, in a simple way people can relate too and understand. I bet most people on this forum, although deeply involved in aviation, have no clue (or interest) in Privatized Government Taxes, Payroll Taxes, The Cost of Oil, and Airport Land Rental Charges when comparing airfares and airlines. As consumers we see the final result in our bank accounts and that is usually what matters most.

Given the choice to fly Westjet or NewLeaf, if the NewLeaf operation seems stable and the fare is around $30-40 less then Westjets then I'm taking it, because at the end of the day that is more money in my pocket. However, as much as I wan't NewLeaf to succeed I know they don't stand a chance in hell to beat out Westjet.
 
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EA CO AS
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Re: Phoenix-Mesa Gateway to get flights from Canada

Tue Nov 22, 2016 1:15 am

I can't say I'm surprised by WS giving IWA/AZA a shot; back when he was still EVP of my division at AS, Gregg Saretsky told me he saw long-term potential for opportunities there. He's clearly had that on his mind for quite awhile.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
hz747300
Posts: 2417
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Re: Phoenix-Mesa Gateway to get flights from Canada

Tue Nov 22, 2016 1:41 am

So if I read this thread correctly, Jetstar is launching a new route from SYD to AZA? ... just kidding... but why would Westjet not wait and see the uptake first?
Keep on truckin'...
 
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alevik
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Re: Phoenix-Mesa Gateway to get flights from Canada

Fri Nov 25, 2016 6:02 pm

777PHX wrote:
Yeah, I live out in the east valley a few minutes away from Gateway. There are a metric shit ton of Canadians out here and snowbirds in general. I have no doubt the route will be a success.

Yep, Gateway is 10 minutes from my house in eastern Gilbert. Already booked my first flight on WS.
Improvise, adapt, overcome.
 
cylw
Posts: 433
Joined: Sun Apr 09, 2000 2:34 pm

Re: Phoenix-Mesa Gateway to get flights from Canada

Tue Jan 03, 2017 10:53 pm

New Leaf has announced on their Facebook page that they are "postponing" their Mesa and Melbourne FL flights. Blaming the Mesa postponment on "the big guy squishing the little guy"

Wonder what that means for WS and Mesa?
 
YVRing
Posts: 104
Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2016 9:14 pm

Re: Phoenix-Mesa Gateway to get flights from Canada

Tue Jan 03, 2017 10:58 pm

Probably that WS service quietly disappears in the near future.
 
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atcsundevil
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Re: Phoenix-Mesa Gateway to get flights from Canada

Wed Jan 04, 2017 12:58 am

I don't think WS will back out quite so easily. Not unless bookings are truly miserable.
 
matthew11
Posts: 120
Joined: Fri May 22, 2009 2:56 am

Re: Phoenix-Mesa Gateway to get flights from Canada

Wed Jan 04, 2017 1:25 am

It doesn't look like NewLeaf is postponing the services, it cancelling them.
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