VSMUT
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Re: Is EK the new Pan AM?

Sun Nov 20, 2016 7:10 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
I doubt it, they make plenty of money with this model, and they consistently manage to fill the A380s.


They are not. Their published network wide load factor for H1 is 75%. They had 182 Billion ASKMs during same period. That means 45 Billion ASKMs did not generate revenue.

If this was a publicly traded company, wall street will be all over the management. But we are a.net.



They are filling them more than enough to make massive profits. That's all wall street cares about.
 
DFW789ER
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Re: Is EK the new Pan AM?

Sun Nov 20, 2016 7:46 pm

bobnwa wrote:
DFW789ER wrote:
Pan Am once was the second most recognizable brand name in the United States after Coca-Cola. They had an extensive route system to all six continents, including routes that did not originate or terminate in the U.S. EK relies solely on one hub, which when banks of flights are in, turns the terminal into absolute chaos. They are very overrated.

Was it ahead of Chevrolet and Ford?


According to the book 'Rapid Descent: Deregulation and the Shakeout in the Airlines' by Barbara Sturken Peterson and James Glab, it was.
 
AirbusCanada
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Re: Is EK the new Pan AM?

Mon Nov 21, 2016 3:14 pm

jetjack74 wrote:
The only way they could be the PanAm of today would be if they were released from govt control and had to struggle to be a viable operation. And if they were ever released(which the Emir would never let that happen), you wouldn't even recognize them. They'd be a fraction of the size, they'd revamp their business with sensible aircraft of realistic routes to actually compete. And none of this garbage of flying countless A380s to Liverpool, or Luton(sarcasm) like they claim that there's a need for.


Emirates are not govt controlled, rather than govt owned. There is a difference.
Emirates is run by one of the best Management in the industry.

Pan Am was a beacon of liberty and justice, whereas Emirates, like almost everything in Dubai, is just a nice veneer for the dark ideology behind it.

Pan Am was something very special that Emirates can never even aspire to be.


Definition of racism:
Prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior.



It's easy when everything is bought and paid for. They even build a separate airport for you. Can you imagine how powerful US and European carriers would be if they endless supplies of money and land available to them?


Who do you think built and paid for land and runways in airports like the JFK, LAX, MAD, LHR, FRA, YYZ after the WWII ?
let me give you a hint, Not Panam ,BA or Air-Canada.

US and European legacy careers were plenty powerful when they were protected by govt monopoly and bi-lateral agreement.


They are not. Their published network wide load factor for H1 is 75%. They had 182 Billion ASKMs during same period. That means 45 Billion ASKMs did not generate revenue.

If this was a publicly traded company, wall street will be all over the management. But we are a.net.



If Emirates were backed by wall street money,

It would rank rock bottom in terms of customer service,
Will not provide any entertainment, food or wifi on 15 hour flight.
Will declare bankruptcy at least once in every decade.
Ask for tighter regulation to keep off competition.
Complain about completion on routes they don't even fly.
Will blame 100% of delays on weather in order to avoid paying compensation.
Will pay their pilots minimum wage if they can get away with it.
Will maintain money loosing direct flight to hometown of high ranking govt. officials in order to get favorite treatment.
 
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AirlineCritic
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Re: Is EK the new Pan AM?

Mon Nov 21, 2016 4:33 pm

There are plenty of differences. I don't feel the situations are similar at all.

They do share one thing, however, and that is being an flagship of not a country but rather the industry. A special case that is taking things where others have not gone yet. And with a big market share.

Successful companies need to do that. They will be in the lead (Apple etc) and doing new things, at massive scales.

There is, however, always the danger of falling from the podium, a spectacular crash of the business. Certainly recent months have shown Emirates take economic hits.

But I don't feel that is more likely for the leader of the business than for the laggards or the small ones running local operations.

In short, they're doing fine (now) and I see no relationship to Pan Am. Aside from typical a.net A380 hatred (how dare some other people in the world have a bigger ...)

Carry on!
 
JayBCNLON
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Re: Is EK the new Pan AM?

Mon Nov 21, 2016 4:57 pm

Well, maybe Pan Am did not receive subsidies (even though you may count the money they received from the US military for access to their planes in the event of military conflict, and from the German government as subsidies for their Berlin intra-German flights), but in any case they thrived on monopolies granted to them by governments. When those were taken away - globally and intra-German - Pan Am was finished.
 
sparkingwave
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Re: Is EK the new Pan AM?

Mon Nov 21, 2016 5:12 pm

When Pan Am began it quickly grew and with Chairman Juan Trippe's vision it conquered long-haul flying in the Pacific with the planes and building the infrastructure - airports on key islands for refueling. The technology and engineering to make it happen elevated Pan Am to a role equivalent to NASA during the 1930s. Because of this experience and know-how the US government favorited Pan Am and gave it special rights to fly long-haul Pacific, Atlantic, and South American routes as the exclusive 'chosen instrument'. Since it won World War II the US demanded (and got) special route authorities to fly to and through Japan, the United Kingdom, and Germany, routes which were bequeathed to Pan Am. Pan Am also had the exclusive right to fly domestic routes within Germany (IGS), which Lufthansa was barred from as a condition of surrender from the war. Pan Am got exclusive fifth-freedoms through Tokyo, Sydney, Paris, Hong Kong and Tehran (and others) and quickly established a true worldwide network that even today no airline can touch, not even the ME3.
Flights to the moon and all major space stations. At Pan Am, the sky is no longer the limit!
 
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jetjack74
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Re: Is EK the new Pan AM?

Mon Nov 21, 2016 7:58 pm

AirbusCanada wrote:
jetjack74 wrote:
The only way they could be the PanAm of today would be if they were released from govt control and had to struggle to be a viable operation. And if they were ever released(which the Emir would never let that happen), you wouldn't even recognize them. They'd be a fraction of the size, they'd revamp their business with sensible aircraft of realistic routes to actually compete. And none of this garbage of flying countless A380s to Liverpool, or Luton(sarcasm) like they claim that there's a need for.

Emirates are not govt controlled, rather than govt owned. There is a difference.
Emirates is run by one of the best Management in the industry.

Call it whatever you want. But when you company is owned by the govt, pretty much all of your operating costs are written off by the gov't, and you don't have to rely on profits stay in business, you're not a viable stand-alone operation(which is what the opponents of Emirates and ME3 are . Real privately-run airlines have real issues to tackle if it's to be successful.
Made from jets!
 
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11725Flyer
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Re: Is EK the new Pan AM?

Mon Nov 21, 2016 10:16 pm

To answer your question, no. I read Skygods: The Fall of Pan Am, and I believe it will give you a great perspective on the subject. To get a bit nostalgic, I flew many PanAm flights when I lived in Miami - they got to know me by name which I don't think happens very often nowadays.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Is EK the new Pan AM?

Mon Nov 21, 2016 11:27 pm

jetjack74 wrote:
But when you company is owned by the govt, pretty much all of your operating costs are written off by the gov't, and you don't have to rely on profits stay in business, you're not a viable stand-alone operation


This might be the case for QR and EY, but it's certainly not the case for EK. :shakehead:
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
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rbavfan
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Re: Is EK the new Pan AM?

Tue Nov 22, 2016 9:38 am

global2 wrote:
klm617 wrote:
747400sp wrote:
Hello

First off for anybody who have a problem with this topic, if you do not have any this nice to say please do not reply

I know I started a topic about EK using super jumbo and jumbos on short routes, but I feel EK is the new PA, so do you think I am right?



All things considered I see Delta more as the new Pan Am.


Oh, I don't know about that. I am friends with a retired FA who flew for PA from the end of the Golden Age until the end of PA when DL took over. She describes the change this way: "I went from wearing white gloves to rubber gloves!". I won't even repeat some other colorful descriptions she has of Delta and its management.
Pan Am was a true pioneer, and had a huge influence establishing long distance commercial aviation and the planes that got built to serve that purpose: from flying boats to the 747.
EK will never have a legacy like that.



In theory you can say the A380 was built to serve Emirates.
 
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mariner
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Re: Is EK the new Pan AM?

Tue Nov 22, 2016 9:55 am

jetjack74 wrote:
Call it whatever you want. But when you company is owned by the govt, pretty much all of your operating costs are written off by the gov't, and you don't have to rely on profits stay in business, you're not a viable stand-alone operation(which is what the opponents of Emirates and ME3 are . Real privately-run airlines have real issues to tackle if it's to be successful.


Air New Zealand is majority owned by the New Zealand government and none of what you say applies.

No costs can be written off, it is expected to be profitable and to return a dividend to the government. It is not protected in ay way. New Zealand's aviation's laws are among the most liberal in the world. Emirates, for example, is allowed to cary O&D pax between Australia and NZ, as other several other airlines.

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
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STT757
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Re: Is EK the new Pan AM?

Tue Nov 22, 2016 10:10 am

I was watching Anthony Bourdain Parts unknown last night on CNN, they were in Buenos Aires. The episode begins with Bourdain and a local chef sitting in beach chairs with lots of families plane spotting at a park next to an airport in Buenos Aires. It was a popular place, lots of families and vendors selling food and other things. One vendor was selling inflatable planes which all the kids had while they were watching real planes take off and land. Guess what all the inflatable planes in this park next to an airport in Buenos Aires said, Pan Am! 25 years after they shutdown they're still part of the culture.

Check out the episode.[url][/http://www.cnn.com/videos/travel/2016/06/03/parts-unknown-anthony-bourdain-buenos-aires-sneak-peek.cnnurl]
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AirbusCanada
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Re: Is EK the new Pan AM?

Tue Nov 22, 2016 2:24 pm

jetjack74 wrote:
AirbusCanada wrote:
jetjack74 wrote:
The only way they could be the PanAm of today would be if they were released from govt control and had to struggle to be a viable operation. And if they were ever released(which the Emir would never let that happen), you wouldn't even recognize them. They'd be a fraction of the size, they'd revamp their business with sensible aircraft of realistic routes to actually compete. And none of this garbage of flying countless A380s to Liverpool, or Luton(sarcasm) like they claim that there's a need for.

Emirates are not govt controlled, rather than govt owned. There is a difference.
Emirates is run by one of the best Management in the industry.

Call it whatever you want. But when you company is owned by the govt, pretty much all of your operating costs are written off by the gov't, and you don't have to rely on profits stay in business, you're not a viable stand-alone operation(which is what the opponents of Emirates and ME3 are . Real privately-run airlines have real issues to tackle if it's to be successful.



Your argument is completely baseless.
There are about 150 airlines that are currently owned by the Government.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_g ... d_airlines
 
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jetjack74
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Re: Is EK the new Pan AM?

Tue Nov 22, 2016 6:06 pm

AirbusCanada wrote:
Your argument is completely baseless.
There are about 150 airlines that are currently owned by the Government.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_g ... d_airlines

Those govt owned airlines aren't stuffing 90-odd A380s all over the globe, some 4-5 times a day, have airports basically built strictly for them, to isolate them from competition, spend an upwards close to BILLIONS on a class of service that any real airline could never afford. Yeah, they're extremely well-managed. They better be. A monkey could run Emirates with all the peripheral support. I'm not saying they should be shut down. They can run it any which way they want. But I think they should be restricted, at least with the US until they've proven they operate on same, level playing field as US carriers. But don't worry, that will never happen while they're probably stuffing money into the pockets of US govt officials.
Made from jets!
 
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AirlineCritic
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Re: Is EK the new Pan AM?

Tue Nov 22, 2016 6:55 pm

So much hatred. Wonder if this is no longer a question for the business or policy experts. Some of the discussions seems to fit well the post-fact world that we live in.
 
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mariner
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Re: Is EK the new Pan AM?

Tue Nov 22, 2016 7:45 pm

jetjack74 wrote:
Those govt owned airlines aren't stuffing 90-odd A380s all over the globe, some 4-5 times a day, have airports basically built strictly for them, to isolate them from competition, spend an upwards close to BILLIONS on a class of service that any real airline could never afford.


Now you're just sounding ill-informed or - or in the case of first class - jealous.

(i) Emirates can operate those A380 profitably (ii) Dubai has fairly liberal aviation agreements, many airlines fly there, and (iii) there are are enough people who can afford first class to make it worthwhile - on the routes it is offered.

On some routes it is the only airline offering first class, and the wealthy have to fly with someone - LOL - unless you take a socialist view that the rich should be forced to fly economy. Image

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
AirbusCanada
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Re: Is EK the new Pan AM?

Tue Nov 22, 2016 8:33 pm

Those govt owned airlines aren't stuffing 90-odd A380s all over the globe, some 4-5 times a day, have airports basically built strictly for them, to isolate them from competition, spend an upwards close to BILLIONS on a class of service that any real airline could never afford. Yeah, they're extremely well-managed. They better be. A monkey could run Emirates with all the peripheral support.


You sounds like running 90 odd A380s all over the globe 4-5 time a day is a bad thing.

If a monkey could run a 100 aircraft A380 operation, the A380 program would't be such a money drainer for Airbus. All the European Majors would have ordered 100+ A380's with support from their respective government.

In Case you haven't notice, Dubai airport has become world’s largest International airport with over 150 airlines serving 240 destination. Hardly an airport custom built for Emirates.
 
77H
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Re: Is EK the new Pan AM?

Wed Nov 23, 2016 2:44 am

coolian2 wrote:
747400sp wrote:
if you do not have any this nice to say please do not reply

So if we disagree we can't reply?


There are plenty of ways to disagree without being nasty which many on here tend to do.

77H
 
RacheyFlies
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Re: Is EK the new Pan AM?

Wed Nov 23, 2016 3:24 am

Not really, because maybe I think they don't operate much route in the Americas unlike Pan Am. But I think like only in the Middle East and Other 5 continents.
The best plane I've flown is an A380. They were the biggest and the best than other plane I've been on. :lol:
 
AirCalSNA
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Re: Is EK the new Pan AM?

Wed Nov 23, 2016 3:38 am

No. All of EK's flights go through Dubai, a tiny nation, so EK is more comparable to international airlines operated by similarly sized countries today that take people to and from (or through) their home countries; think of El Al or Singapore on steroids. Pan Am had much more of a global network with many flights that hopped from country to country, coming no where near the United States.
 
Viscount724
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Re: Is EK the new Pan AM?

Wed Nov 23, 2016 3:58 am

AirCalSNA wrote:
No. All of EK's flights go through Dubai, a tiny nation, so EK is more comparable to international airlines operated by similarly sized countries today that take people to and from (or through) their home countries; think of El Al or Singapore on steroids. Pan Am had much more of a global network with many flights that hopped from country to country, coming no where near the United States.


That's not correct. Apart from the intra-German services to/from then West Berlin before reunification, which only US, British and French carriers could operate, the flights you mention that "hoped from country to country,coming nowhere near the US", actually were 5th freedom flights that had to originate/terminate at a US point, but with change-of-gauge usually permitted.

For example, you could fly Pan Am from SIN to HKG or from LHR to FRA, but the flight had to originate or terminate at a US point. They couldn't operate a stand-alone 7th freedom flight between two third countries. They also operated a fair number of sectors on multi-stop flights where they did not have 5th freedom rights, which often made those flights uneconomic.

And operating under 5th rights makes it difficult to operate the 5th freedom sectors with commercially attractive schedules.
 
AirCalSNA
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Re: Is EK the new Pan AM?

Wed Nov 23, 2016 4:16 am

Viscount724 wrote:
AirCalSNA wrote:
No. All of EK's flights go through Dubai, a tiny nation, so EK is more comparable to international airlines operated by similarly sized countries today that take people to and from (or through) their home countries; think of El Al or Singapore on steroids. Pan Am had much more of a global network with many flights that hopped from country to country, coming no where near the United States.


That's not correct. Apart from the intra-German services to/from then West Berlin before reunification, which only US, British and French carriers could operate, the flights you mention that "hoped from country to country,coming nowhere near the US", actually were 5th freedom flights that had to originate/terminate at a US point, but with change-of-gauge usually permitted.

For example, you could fly Pan Am from SIN to HKG or from LHR to FRA, but the flight had to originate or terminate at a US point. They couldn't operate a stand-alone 7th freedom flight between two third countries. They also operated a fair number of sectors on multi-stop flights where they did not have 5th freedom rights, which often made those flights uneconomic.

And operating under 5th rights makes it difficult to operate the 5th freedom sectors with commercially attractive schedules.


In terms of comparing Pan Am to EK I don't see how the legal status of a flight really matters. Even if a flight number or particular aircraft had to originate or terminate in the US it was still possible, and I gather relatively common, to fly Pan Am entirely outside of the US ... you provide some good examples. EK on the other hand is simply another airline that goes to and from a relatively small country ... something pretty common these days. I don't think EK is able to offer around-the-world service by itself. But Pan Am on its own offered daily dual-direction service from cities around the globe for decades. So no, EK is not the new Pan Am.
 
Eyad89
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Re: Is EK the new Pan AM?

Wed Nov 23, 2016 5:37 am

Interesting thread.

Let's assume that Pan Am was still operating today, how would it be like? One thing we know for sure is that EK would be the same airline even if Pam Am was still present. The question is: Would Pan Am be standing next to other US3 complaining of how EK is getting all those subsidies? Or will it beat EK in terms number of international passengers and quality of service?

I mean, it is tough to compare EK today to how Pan Am was 50 years ago. Too many variables have changed to make a fair comparison.
 
SCAT15F
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Re: Is EK the new Pan AM?

Wed Nov 23, 2016 5:45 am

No way can you equate EK to Pan Am. This is a dramatically different world we live in.
 
JeremyB
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Re: Is EK the new Pan AM?

Wed Nov 23, 2016 9:29 am

mariner wrote:
jetjack74 wrote:
Those govt owned airlines aren't stuffing 90-odd A380s all over the globe, some 4-5 times a day, have airports basically built strictly for them, to isolate them from competition, spend an upwards close to BILLIONS on a class of service that any real airline could never afford.


Now you're just sounding ill-informed or - or in the case of first class - jealous.

(i) Emirates can operate those A380 profitably (ii) Dubai has fairly liberal aviation agreements, many airlines fly there, and (iii) there are are enough people who can afford first class to make it worthwhile - on the routes it is offered.

On some routes it is the only airline offering first class, and the wealthy have to fly with someone - LOL - unless you take a socialist view that the rich should be forced to fly economy. Image

mariner


Indeed, Emirates is the only airline offering first class to/from Amsterdam and from what I've heard and seen in person it's usually pretty full up front. I still remember when Emirates announced they would start the DXB-AMS-DXB route. A lot of people said they would either fail or would downgrade the route to a A330. Now they are flying two A380's per day on the route, people pick Emirates over all the other airlines because of their service.
 
Oviedofl
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Re: Is EK the new Pan AM?

Wed Nov 23, 2016 12:01 pm

No, Ek is better! Pan Am's safety record is horrendous. They lost aircraft at a rate no one else comes near.
If you look at the history of crashes, you would be shocked at the frequency of hull losses and fatalities. They
were a pioneer in a lot of areas, but they lost a lot of planes and people. The number is staggering if you read
the list from their start. And they lost all types, flying boats, land base props, and jets. They fall far short of any
standard of being a model for others to emulate, Ek is providing a better product in their niche of the world than
Pan Am did in theirs. Any airline starts with safety, Pan Am fell short way to often for comfort.
 
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SomebodyInTLS
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Re: Is EK the new Pan AM?

Wed Nov 23, 2016 2:41 pm

rbavfan wrote:
global2 wrote:
Pan Am was a true pioneer, and had a huge influence establishing long distance commercial aviation and the planes that got built to serve that purpose: from flying boats to the 747.
EK will never have a legacy like that.


In theory you can say the A380 was built to serve Emirates.


Not really - Emirates was a little pipsqueak when the A3XX was being developed. It just happened to see the potential in the A380 when it was offered. Don't forget that while they committed early it wasn't for anywhere near the number of frames they ended up getting - and IIRC other airlines were more influential in defining the aircraft's requirements.

PanAm was a giant that had an active voice in demanding specific aircraft or shaping development of them. Totally different situation.
"As with most things related to aircraft design, it's all about the trade-offs and much more nuanced than A.net likes to make out."
 
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AirlineCritic
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Re: Is EK the new Pan AM?

Wed Nov 23, 2016 3:44 pm

AirbusCanada wrote:
You sounds like running 90 odd A380s all over the globe 4-5 time a day is a bad thing.


You, Sir, win the Internet today.

Spot on.
 
FGITD
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Re: Is EK the new Pan AM?

Wed Nov 23, 2016 3:53 pm

Oviedofl wrote:
No, Ek is better! Pan Am's safety record is horrendous. They lost aircraft at a rate no one else comes near.
If you look at the history of crashes, you would be shocked at the frequency of hull losses and fatalities. They
were a pioneer in a lot of areas, but they lost a lot of planes and people. The number is staggering if you read
the list from their start. And they lost all types, flying boats, land base props, and jets. They fall far short of any
standard of being a model for others to emulate, Ek is providing a better product in their niche of the world than
Pan Am did in theirs. Any airline starts with safety, Pan Am fell short way to often for comfort.


The reason Emirates, and indeed every other modern airline has such an outstanding safety record is because of airlines like pan am.

Aviation as we know it is barely more than a century old. Flying is an industry that learns from experience. Basically trial and error. If it wasn't pan am, it would have been someone else. Pan am just happened to be amongst the biggest, and most innovative.
 
enzedder
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Re: Is EK the new Pan AM?

Fri Nov 25, 2016 2:57 am

EK and Dubai are as unique for our times as PA was back then in the 50s,60s and 70s. But their business concepts are not comparable.
EK is a transit airline with Dubai as a very well positioned global transit hub. PA couldn't function like this if they still were around. Transit via the US is just not practical without transit areas at airports and visa requirements for so many.
There are many reasons for the downfall of PA that we all know and which have been discussed so many times here on this forum. We cannot see what will happen with airlines of today but EK has been a stunning story so far and it is the most global brand of todays as much as i experience it. Rightfully. They are doing an amazing job by providing an excellent service, fabulous marketing and showing lots of innovation and adaptability. Lets hope they carry on with such great success.
And it is really the same ill-informed or jealous members constantly repeating their mantra about oil money, labour issues, government ownership and all that crap without proof.

Cheers

enzedder
 
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jetjack74
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Re: Is EK the new Pan AM?

Sat Nov 26, 2016 9:09 pm

AirlineCritic wrote:
So much hatred. Wonder if this is no longer a question for the business or policy experts. Some of the discussions seems to fit well the post-fact world that we live in.
Its not hatred. Its wanting a fair and level playing field so competition is kept in check. I have nothing against Emirates. I'm for airlines flying wherever they can. I only have a problem with some using back-door tactics and receiving phantom-financing while pretending to be something that they're not. And, IMHO. thats exactly what the ME3, especially EK is doing. And by that, their access should be restricted, not taken away, just restricted in the US until open up their books and let US regulators and airlines see what they're doing. That is what need a National Airline Policy. much to the chagrin of your blind love-affair with these people.

mariner wrote:
jetjack74 wrote:
Those govt owned airlines aren't stuffing 90-odd A380s all over the globe, some 4-5 times a day, have airports basically built strictly for them, to isolate them from competition, spend an upwards close to BILLIONS on a class of service that any real airline could never afford.


Now you're just sounding ill-informed or - or in the case of first class - jealous.

(i) Emirates can operate those A380 profitably (ii) Dubai has fairly liberal aviation agreements, many airlines fly there, and (iii) there are are enough people who can afford first class to make it worthwhile - on the routes it is offered.

On some routes it is the only airline offering first class, and the wealthy have to fly with someone - LOL - unless you take a socialist view that the rich should be forced to fly economy. Image

mariner

Ok, well then you tell me where I can invest in this profitable business because its a "can't miss", am I right? I'm willing to throw every bit of money into it.

I can read wikipedia too. I know the blind tag-line you're trumpeting. They're owned by the govt, but don't receive a dinar from the Royal Family(sure they don't). And you, an others like you, take offense with people criticizing this "incredibly-run operation". I used to be a fanboy just like you. I was so in love with British Airways when I was a youngster. I used to think BA was the greatest airline on the planet. I marveled at the sight of a BA-owned 747 or Concorde wherever I saw them. When the whole dirty-tricks thing happened, I thought SRB was just a big crybaby(I wasn't aware of how many airlines BA put out of business, even well into the 1980s/90s). But then, after I got into the airline business, and saw how things were run, especially for US carriers, I realized that we don't have the same advantages as most of our foreign competitors do. And over the years, I learned how much we as US carriers are up against. I know we don't nearly compare to the glitz and glamour of the ME3, much like we were 2nd-rate to most everyone else 20-years ago, but to say that Emirates(while govt owned), is completely independent from the State, and that I haven't proved they aren't. Well, the only proof I need is the other 2. If Emirates was so cleanly profitable, the others would do the same. They're performance up against QR and EY, which do receive financial support, but EK is still blowing them away as far as size, global reach, etc etc? C'mon. You can't be that naive. They're getting money or operation exemptions from somewhere.
AirbusCanada wrote:
You sounds like running 90 odd A380s all over the globe 4-5 time a day is a bad thing.

Only when they're attempting to dump over capacity into a market to wash away competitors. Canada and Germany did the right thing by restricting access into the their respective countries
AirbusCanada wrote:
If a monkey could run a 100 aircraft A380 operation, the A380 program would't be such a money drainer for Airbus. All the European Majors would have ordered 100+ A380's with support from their respective government.
European majors are private entities(for the most part), and they have real world problems that the face, like over-spending, sagging market conditions, worldwide upheavals that threaten their existence, something that ME3 barely even noticed. And furthermore, it seems like it was only yesterday that Emirates was pressing EADS to go ahead with an A380neo not too long ago, even going as far as to committing to fund its construction. I never saw BA, LH or AF fund Boeing to build custom-made aircraft derivatives back in the old days.

AirbusCanada wrote:
In Case you haven't notice, Dubai airport has become world’s largest International airport with over 150 airlines serving 240 destination. Hardly an airport custom built for Emirates.
Yes, I read wikipedia as well.
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DFW789ER
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Re: Is EK the new Pan AM?

Sat Nov 26, 2016 9:27 pm

Viscount724 wrote:
AirCalSNA wrote:
No. All of EK's flights go through Dubai, a tiny nation, so EK is more comparable to international airlines operated by similarly sized countries today that take people to and from (or through) their home countries; think of El Al or Singapore on steroids. Pan Am had much more of a global network with many flights that hopped from country to country, coming no where near the United States.


That's not correct. Apart from the intra-German services to/from then West Berlin before reunification, which only US, British and French carriers could operate, the flights you mention that "hoped from country to country,coming nowhere near the US", actually were 5th freedom flights that had to originate/terminate at a US point, but with change-of-gauge usually permitted.

For example, you could fly Pan Am from SIN to HKG or from LHR to FRA, but the flight had to originate or terminate at a US point. They couldn't operate a stand-alone 7th freedom flight between two third countries. They also operated a fair number of sectors on multi-stop flights where they did not have 5th freedom rights, which often made those flights uneconomic.

And operating under 5th rights makes it difficult to operate the 5th freedom sectors with commercially attractive schedules.


in the early 70s, Pan Am flew SYD to Jakarta, Hong Kong, and Bangkok. How do they fit in? I don't see any of them touching U.S. soil.
 
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jetjack74
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Re: Is EK the new Pan AM?

Sat Nov 26, 2016 9:44 pm

mariner wrote:
On some routes it is the only airline offering first class, and the wealthy have to fly with someone - LOL - unless you take a socialist view that the rich should be forced to fly economy. Image

mariner

No, I would just like to see if they could still run themselves, continuously, with this over-the-top opulence if they weren't an state-owned enterprise. If they were, most of that stuff would disappear tomorrow, and you know it.
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mariner
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Re: Is EK the new Pan AM?

Sat Nov 26, 2016 10:27 pm

[quote="jetjack74"]Ok, well then you tell me where I can invest in this profitable business because its a "can't miss", am I right? I'm willing to throw every bit of money into it. [/i]

You can't because they haven't had an IPO yet.

But - once again, ever helpful - there is another majority government owned and profitable airline you can buy shares in - Air New Zealand.

Image

mariner
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Viscount724
Posts: 19316
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Re: Is EK the new Pan AM?

Sun Nov 27, 2016 2:13 am

DFW789ER wrote:
Viscount724 wrote:
AirCalSNA wrote:
No. All of EK's flights go through Dubai, a tiny nation, so EK is more comparable to international airlines operated by similarly sized countries today that take people to and from (or through) their home countries; think of El Al or Singapore on steroids. Pan Am had much more of a global network with many flights that hopped from country to country, coming no where near the United States.


That's not correct. Apart from the intra-German services to/from then West Berlin before reunification, which only US, British and French carriers could operate, the flights you mention that "hoped from country to country,coming nowhere near the US", actually were 5th freedom flights that had to originate/terminate at a US point, but with change-of-gauge usually permitted.

For example, you could fly Pan Am from SIN to HKG or from LHR to FRA, but the flight had to originate or terminate at a US point. They couldn't operate a stand-alone 7th freedom flight between two third countries. They also operated a fair number of sectors on multi-stop flights where they did not have 5th freedom rights, which often made those flights uneconomic.

And operating under 5th rights makes it difficult to operate the 5th freedom sectors with commercially attractive schedules.


in the early 70s, Pan Am flew SYD to Jakarta, Hong Kong, and Bangkok. How do they fit in? I don't see any of them touching U.S. soil.


Yes, those flights were 5th freedom continuations of some PA flights JFK-LAX-HNL-SYD using the same flight number all the way (PA811 westbound, PA812 eastbound). Virtually no passengers would fly all the way from the US to JKT/HKG/BKK via such a roundabout route, but they still qualified as 5th freedom. Had PA not used the same flight number all the way from the US they couldn't have carried local passengers between SYD and those points.
 
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jetjack74
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Re: Is EK the new Pan AM?

Sun Nov 27, 2016 6:32 pm

mariner wrote:
jetjack74 wrote:
Ok, well then you tell me where I can invest in this profitable business because its a "can't miss", am I right? I'm willing to throw every bit of money into it. [/i]


You can't because they haven't had an IPO yet.

For which they never will.

And with that, I rest my case.
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mariner
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Re: Is EK the new Pan AM?

Sun Nov 27, 2016 6:49 pm

jetjack74 wrote:
mariner wrote:
jetjack74 wrote:
Ok, well then you tell me where I can invest in this profitable business because its a "can't miss", am I right? I'm willing to throw every bit of money into it. [/i]


You can't because they haven't had an IPO yet.

For which they never will.

And with that, I rest my case.


So your case is based on speculation - LOL. No one can accurately predict the future and while it may be what you believe, your position is scarcely unbiased.

Right now, there is no reason for Emirates to go public and if their position is as you claim, it would be a con, a scam, of the investing public - as a lot of IPO's are.

mariner
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scbriml
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Re: Is EK the new Pan Am?

Sun Nov 27, 2016 8:33 pm

jetjack74 wrote:
I only have a problem with some using back-door tactics and receiving phantom-financing while pretending to be something that they're not. And, IMHO. thats exactly what the ME3, especially EK is doing.


Often claimed, but amazingly, never any evidence offered to support the claim. Just as you're doing. Continually repeating the same falsehoods doesn't make them the truth. :sarcastic:
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There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
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jetjack74
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Re: Is EK the new Pan Am?

Mon Nov 28, 2016 2:27 am

mariner wrote:
jetjack74 wrote:
mariner wrote:

You can't because they haven't had an IPO yet.

For which they never will.

And with that, I rest my case.


So your case is based on speculation - LOL. No one can accurately predict the future and while it may be what you believe, your position is scarcely unbiased.

Right now, there is no reason for Emirates to go public and if their position is as you claim, it would be a con, a scam, of the investing public - as a lot of IPO's are.

mariner

While my case maybe simplistic, and despite your "clean as wind-driven snow" perspective, i'm the only person who thinks their business plan is highly suspect. When there's smoke, there's fire. Their 2 neighbours are supported their respective govts, but Emirates is some sort of an enigma. Sure they are. They've been denying the accusations years and years apparently, but they continue to be secretive about the details behind their financial results. They could settle this and put everything to rest, but they'd rather continue to stone-wall and deflect the criticism rather than just throw everything out in the open, which is red-flags.
scbriml wrote:
jetjack74 wrote:
I only have a problem with some using back-door tactics and receiving phantom-financing while pretending to be something that they're not. And, IMHO. thats exactly what the ME3, especially EK is doing.


Often claimed, but amazingly, never any evidence offered to support the claim. Just as you're doing. Continually repeating the same falsehoods doesn't make them the truth. :sarcastic:

And you know this for sure? Or are you speculating?

Move along folks, nothing to see here.......
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scbriml
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Re: Is EK the new Pan Am?

Mon Nov 28, 2016 9:12 am

jetjack74 wrote:
Or are you speculating?


The only person speculating here is you - making all these claims with zero supporting evidence. :yes:

jetjack74 wrote:
Move along folks, nothing to see here.......


Pot, meet kettle.
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There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
SpaceshipDC10
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Re: Is EK the new Pan Am?

Mon Nov 28, 2016 10:40 am

747400sp wrote:
Hello

I feel EK is the new PA, so do you think I am right?


No! As I said it on a similar thread a couple of years ago, Pan Am was far more adventurous. EK is only using what's available whereas Pan Am opened new routes, starting with their flying boats across the Pacific; was pushing for the jet age and then for the 747. Pan Am, until the early '70s, was special. To me, EK is just another airline offering above average service in First and Business.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Is EK the new Pan Am?

Mon Nov 28, 2016 10:50 am

scbriml wrote:
Continually repeating the same falsehoods doesn't make them the truth. :sarcastic:


Exactly my thoughts. Here are few examples of repeating the same falsehood didn't turnout to be true.

It is well run
It is a numbers company
It is the only airline capable of filling A380s profitably
Its network is well planned
It doesn't have bloated workforce
It is the best place to work
It has best service
 
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SomebodyInTLS
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Re: Is EK the new Pan AM?

Mon Nov 28, 2016 12:28 pm

jetjack74 wrote:
mariner wrote:
jetjack74 wrote:
Ok, well then you tell me where I can invest in this profitable business because its a "can't miss", am I right? I'm willing to throw every bit of money into it. [/i]


You can't because they haven't had an IPO yet.

For which they never will.

And with that, I rest my case.


Sorry - why must a company be involved in the massive gambling addiction of the share markets to be a legitimate entity in your opinion?

Personally, I have more respect for a well-run privately owned company than one which does everything for the short-termism of its idiot shareholders.
"As with most things related to aircraft design, it's all about the trade-offs and much more nuanced than A.net likes to make out."
 
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mariner
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Re: Is EK the new Pan AM?

Mon Nov 28, 2016 5:47 pm

SomebodyInTLS wrote:
Sorry - why must a company be involved in the massive gambling addiction of the share markets to be a legitimate entity in your opinion?

Personally, I have more respect for a well-run privately owned company than one which does everything for the short-termism of its idiot shareholders.


I don't think companies do have to go public, I was responding to another poster's question about buying shares in Emirates stating why he can't. Image

I have no problem with private companies or semi-private, as in the case of Air New Zealand, which is majority owned by the NZ government.

mariner
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SomebodyInTLS
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Re: Is EK the new Pan AM?

Tue Nov 29, 2016 12:14 pm

mariner wrote:
SomebodyInTLS wrote:
Sorry - why must a company be involved in the massive gambling addiction of the share markets to be a legitimate entity in your opinion?

Personally, I have more respect for a well-run privately owned company than one which does everything for the short-termism of its idiot shareholders.


I don't think companies do have to go public, I was responding to another poster's question about buying shares in Emirates stating why he can't. Image


Errr... my post was responding to JetJack, not you...
"As with most things related to aircraft design, it's all about the trade-offs and much more nuanced than A.net likes to make out."
 
AirbusCanada
Posts: 640
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Re: Is EK the new Pan Am?

Tue Nov 29, 2016 2:37 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
scbriml wrote:
Continually repeating the same falsehoods doesn't make them the truth. :sarcastic:


Exactly my thoughts. Here are few examples of repeating the same falsehood didn't turnout to be true.

It is well run
It is a numbers company
It is the only airline capable of filling A380s profitably
Its network is well planned
It doesn't have bloated workforce
It is the best place to work
It has best service


Completely agree with you.
Can you please provide us with some facts that proves Emirates is a badly run Airline with a badly planned network, and who is not profitably filling up A380s.
 
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scbriml
Posts: 17618
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Re: Is EK the new Pan Am?

Tue Nov 29, 2016 6:02 pm

AirbusCanada wrote:
Can you please provide us with some facts that proves Emirates is a badly run Airline with a badly planned network, and who is not profitably filling up A380s.


Good luck with that. Facts are usually the first casualty when it come to a good old EK bashing.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
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mariner
Posts: 19473
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

Re: Is EK the new Pan AM?

Tue Nov 29, 2016 6:49 pm

SomebodyInTLS wrote:
Errr... my post was responding to JetJack, not you...


Oh, sorry, I was confused. My bad. Image

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 7188
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

Re: Is EK the new Pan Am?

Tue Nov 29, 2016 11:19 pm

AirbusCanada wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
scbriml wrote:
Continually repeating the same falsehoods doesn't make them the truth. :sarcastic:


Exactly my thoughts. Here are few examples of repeating the same falsehood didn't turnout to be true.

It is well run
It is a numbers company
It is the only airline capable of filling A380s profitably
Its network is well planned
It doesn't have bloated workforce
It is the best place to work
It has best service


Completely agree with you.
Can you please provide us with some facts that proves Emirates is a badly run Airline with a badly planned network, and who is not profitably filling up A380s.


It is now such a cluster^&* no evidence is required to prove those are not true.
 
haughtney
Posts: 2
Joined: Tue Feb 28, 2006 6:22 am

Re: Is EK the new Pan Am?

Wed Nov 30, 2016 6:07 am

As dtw2hyd has already stated, EK is currently in such a mess radical measures are going to be taken, these allegedly include a 25% reduction in workforce numbers across the EK and Dnata group, deferral of A380 orders (Rolls Royce engines not up to spec anyone?) or early return of older A380 airframes, and potentially deferral of the 777x order.
Information from inside the organisation that has found its way out suggests management have been directed to find immediate savings in the region of 350 million USD. Couple this with a pilot attrition rate (resignations) approaching 8%, a chronic shortage of engineering staff plus eye watering rates of Cabin Crew turnover and you have a perfect storm most of which EK have done to themselves.
Add to this a steadily lowering yield picture along with demotivated and disinterested frontline staff and you really do have an issue of epic proportions.

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