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Lofty
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What went wrong for BA at LGW

Sat Nov 19, 2016 10:36 pm

Just reading and came across a time in 1997 when BAs fleet at LGW was:
B737 x 33
B747-436 x 3
B747-236 x 11
B767 x 5
DC10 x 8
At that time BA and its partners were serving over 100 more destination than BA at LHR.
 
shuttle9juliet
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Re: What went wrong forBA at LGW

Sat Nov 19, 2016 11:31 pm

EasyJet!!!!
 
ahj2000
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Re: What went wrong forBA at LGW

Sat Nov 19, 2016 11:33 pm

Also, they sold their subsidiary GB airways to EasyJet, handing over. A bunch or destinations to Easy.
-Andrés Juánez
 
cornishsimon
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Re: What went wrong forBA at LGW

Sat Nov 19, 2016 11:46 pm

Nothing "went wrong" as such
As agreements came to an end airlines were allowed access to LHR and then routes moved from Gatters to fortress heathrow.

BA then retrenched when U2 came on the scene but are starting to fight back at LGW with new (to BA ) aircraft for shorthaul and are also transferring 772s from LHR to LGW when new equipment is delivered to BA at LHR.

In recent weeks BA have announced OAK and FLL new for next year from the LGW base and this is in addition to JFK which re-launched six or so months ago plus a handful of other routes.

I'm just surprised that MSY didn't launch from LGW but suggestion is that BA need feed from LHR shorthaul for that one.

Generally speaking BA have a good product at LGW not particularly requiring connecting traffic as its fed well by BA holidays.

I would expect to see more short and longhaul aircraft and routes for BA at Gatters over the next couple of years. IAG certainly see a future as a new lounge complex is being prepared for the upcoming move to the south terminal when all IAG airlines at LGW will be under one roof along with codeshare partners such as BE.


cs
 
cornishsimon
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Re: What went wrong forBA at LGW

Sat Nov 19, 2016 11:48 pm

ahj2000 wrote:
Also, they sold their subsidiary GB airways to EasyJet, handing over. A bunch or destinations to Easy.



Just to correct this. BA never owned GB. Gb was a
BA franchise same as BMED which ended up part of BMI.

They did have first refusal on the purchase but foolishly in my opinion didn't take the option.

BA now fly again to most of the Ex GB franchise destinations.


cs
 
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Aisak
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Re: What went wrong forBA at LGW

Sun Nov 20, 2016 12:50 am

Lofty wrote:
At that time BA and its partners were serving over 100 more destination than BA at LHR.

Well, a lot has changed in these 20 years and not only in aviation. Also bear in mind now BA is part of the IAG holding having IB, EI and VY also flying from the airport

ahj2000 wrote:
Also, they sold their subsidiary GB airways to EasyJet, handing over. A bunch or destinations to Easy.

Well, technically GB Airways was not a BA subsidiary but an independent carrier (read not BA owned) operating as a BA franchise. When the airline was sold to Easyjet the brand "just" changed from BA to easyjet
 
ahj2000
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Re: What went wrong forBA at LGW

Sun Nov 20, 2016 1:31 am

Aisak wrote:
ahj2000 wrote:
Also, they sold their subsidiary GB airways to EasyJet, handing over. A bunch or destinations to Easy.

Well, technically GB Airways was not a BA subsidiary but an independent carrier (read not BA owned) operating as a BA franchise. When the airline was sold to Easyjet the brand "just" changed from BA to easyjet

cornishsimon wrote:
ahj2000 wrote:
Also, they sold their subsidiary GB airways to EasyJet, handing over. A bunch or destinations to Easy.



Just to correct this. BA never owned GB. Gb was a
BA franchise same as BMED which ended up part of BMI.

They did have first refusal on the purchase but foolishly in my opinion didn't take the option.

BA now fly again to most of the Ex GB franchise destinations.


cs


Thanks, I guess you do learn something new each day.
-Andrés Juánez
 
jfk777
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Re: What went wrong forBA at LGW

Sun Nov 20, 2016 1:34 am

The need for a BA presence changed at Gatwick changed when Heathrow was opened in 2008. When BA no longer needed to fly from LGW to Atlanta, Houston, Charlotte and DFW under the draconian terms of the Bermua II they didn't need such a large LGW presence. Since LHR opened up all the southern US destinations are flown from Heathrow. Change can be a beautiful thing, British Caledonian at LHR would have been a great thing.
 
skipness1E
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Re: What went wrong forBA at LGW

Sun Nov 20, 2016 2:38 am

Well more fundamentally, it never made money, all the way from the BCAL takeover in 1987 to the closure of the hub concept in around 2003.They kept thinking with LHR full we need somewhere to grow, but ended up duplicating effort and competing with themselves. Commercial reality was forced upon them when EZY moved in and served the LGW market way more effectively.
 
vv701
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Re: What went wrong forBA at LGW

Sun Nov 20, 2016 2:58 am

GB Airways was originally named Gibair. It was formed in 1933 by a shipping company, M H Bland, to operate between Gibraltar and Tangiers.

\subsequently Gibair ceased operation. However BEA bought a controlling 51 per cent stake in the dormant airline in 1947 and reactivated its operations. Initially it leased a BEA 'Pioneer' DC-3s and later a Viscount. Later lights between GIB and initially LHR were launched using leased BEA and later BA aircraft. This service was transferred from LHR to LGW in April 1979 from when it was operated by a leased Britannia Airways 732.

In 1981 Gibair was renamed GB Airways.

In 1989 GB Airways transferred its home base from GIB to LGW. By then it was operating a fleet of three leased 732s. At this point BA held a minority 49 per cent stake in GB Airways having sold 2 per cent back to the Bland Group..

In 1995 BA sold its remaining 49 per cent of GB Airways to Bland . At the same time GB Airways became a BA franchise operator. Its fleet had expanded to five 732s and two ex-BA 734s that were all operated BA livery..

It is also worth noting that by the time GB Airways was purchased by easyJet on 30 March 2008 it was operating from both LGW and LHR. More relevantly as part of the total deal BA 'inherited' all the GB Airways' LHR slots.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: What went wrong forBA at LGW

Sun Nov 20, 2016 4:31 am

cornishsimon wrote:
I'm just surprised that MSY didn't launch from LGW

Shouldn't be.

MSY was seeking a network carrier+hub system, and the private incentives for such (representing not just MSY, but multiple cities in four states along the Gulf Coast-- Baton Rouge, Lafayette, Houma/Thibodaux, Gulfport/Biloxi, Mobile, Destin, etc) reflected that.

In short summary:
  • The local business AND tourism markets wanted LHR
  • The optimal model type was based at LHR
  • The feed to supplement was at LHR
  • The incentives were for a network hub, like LHR

...thus, the airline gave them: LHR. :)

From what I understand, DE took advantage of the same network hub luring incentives when they launched FRA-MSY.


*******************************
As for LON; a few years down the road, I wouldn't be surprised to see MSY (and possibly AUS) support both:
Daily BA to LHR and 1-3x weekly DY to LGW, or similar.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
steve6666
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Re: What went wrong forBA at LGW

Sun Nov 20, 2016 10:01 am

ahj2000 wrote:
Also, they sold their subsidiary GB airways to EasyJet, handing over. A bunch or destinations to Easy.


GB Airways wasn't a BA subsidiary, it was a franchise operation that was free to go to Easyjet (subject to the terms of the franchise agreement) without BA having to sell anything. And in any case, that was "only" about nine or ten years ago.

BA moved a whole load of long haul routes to LHR in about 2001 - the South American routes (GIG, GRU, EZE), Nassau and GCM, African routes and I think duplicate destinations (eg MIA) served from both. And in 2008 the US destinations that had to be served from LGW (IAH, DFW, ATL etc) went to LHR.
A306, A318, A319, A320, A321, A332, A333, A343, A346, A388, B722, B732, B733, B734, B735, B73G, B738, B742, B744, B752, B753, B762, B763, B764, B772, B773, B77W, B787-8, BAe-146, Cessna Something, DC-10, E175, E195, ERJ145, MD-11, MD-80, PA Something
 
Bongodog1964
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Re: What went wrong for BA at LGW

Sun Nov 20, 2016 10:26 am

My recollection is somewhat different to much of the above:
The expansion of BA's operations into a 2nd hub was a policy in the reign of Bob Ayling, No one could accuse him of being over cautious, despite operating the World's largest fleet of 744's it ended up withe rather less than he anticipated as later orders were swapped for 772's.
Firstly the financial crisis in the late 90's and then 9/11 left BA in a perilous financial position and the only logical way out was to sell off what could be sold and shut down all that was unprofitable at LGW. This retrenchment and cost cutting was the major feature during the Rod Eddington years.

U2 didn't force BA out of LGW, in those days U2 was predominately a LTN based airline who then picked up the GO operation at STN from BA. They then took advantage of BA's withdrawal from LGW to move into there as well.
 
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FlyCaledonian
Posts: 1987
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Re: What went wrong for BA at LGW

Sun Nov 20, 2016 2:13 pm

Bongodog1964 wrote:
My recollection is somewhat different to much of the above:
The expansion of BA's operations into a 2nd hub was a policy in the reign of Bob Ayling, No one could accuse him of being over cautious, despite operating the World's largest fleet of 744's it ended up withe rather less than he anticipated as later orders were swapped for 772's.
Firstly the financial crisis in the late 90's and then 9/11 left BA in a perilous financial position and the only logical way out was to sell off what could be sold and shut down all that was unprofitable at LGW. This retrenchment and cost cutting was the major feature during the Rod Eddington years.

U2 didn't force BA out of LGW, in those days U2 was predominately a LTN based airline who then picked up the GO operation at STN from BA. They then took advantage of BA's withdrawal from LGW to move into there as well.

Exactly, BA did pursue a dual-hub policy that at one point did see BA (including franchise carriers) serve more destinations from LGW than LHR.

Until the mid-1980s BA had a minimal presence at LGW, with a handful of shorthaul flights. Then came the acquisition of British Caledonian and BA suddenly had a decent presence at LGW with flights to West and Central Africa and the Southern USA (IAH, ATL, DFW). Some of the BCal traffic rights were transferred to LHR, such as Saudi Arabia and Hong Kong. In the opposite direction BA started moving some Caribbean flying from LHR. BA didn't keep the BCal shorthaul network as it stood though and was forced to shed some scheduled route licences to Air Europe, Dan-Air and Air UK.

BA had room to grow shorthaul at LGW following the collapse of Air Europe in 1991 and then Dan-Air (DA) in 1992. With the latter collapse BA acquired the secheduled operation of DA for the nominal sum of £1, that included taking on leases of fairly new Boeing 737-300 and 737-400 aircraft to operate alongside BA's 737-236 ADV fleet. BA also developed an arrangement with independent carrier CityFlyer Express who operated its ATR42 (and later ATR72) aircraft in BA colours as British Airways Express, initially serving routes such as Leeds/Bradford, Newcastle, Antwerp and Rotterdam.

The big change came in the mid-1990s when BA decided to pursue the dual hub strategy. Constrained at LHR the plan was to move a number of shorthaul and longhaul routes to LGW. All Latin American routes (including Mexico City originally) and all African flights - bar those to Johnannesburg and Cape Town (including the tags from JNB to Durban and Gaboronne) - moved to LGW. Various shorthaul routes also got "Gatwicked" over a few years, including those of BA subsiduary Brymon Airways to Plymouth and Newquay using the DHC Dash 8, Inverness, Jersey and Italian routes excluding Rome and Milan. This allowed BA to grow the longhaul network to North America, the Middle East and Far East at LHR as well as up frequencies on core business routes.

LGW didn't lose out in this move, as the fleet there continued to grow. Indeed, by Summer 1997 BA actually moved the LGW based 747-236B fleet (over half of BA's 16 aircraft had been based at LGW) to LHR and moved more 747-436 aircraft to LGW to only have one 747 fleet there. The 777s were also coming on board to replace the DC-10s and a number of 767-336ER aircraft were also operating at LGW, including on services to Pittsburgh, Charlotte and Baltimore that had been operated by USAir with their 767-200ERs in BA colours. On the longhaul front, although Bermuda II was responsible for keeping a number of flights at LGW, BA was adding flights too with LGW-Phoenix-San Diego that started with a DC-10, moved to the 777, then the 747-436 before being split into separate flights. Denver was also added whilst the application to serve Las Vegas was lost to VS. (VS also beat BA to serve Shanghai from LHR).

In Summer 1999 BA were serving 47 longhaul destinations from LGW (^ including those served by the BA/AML joint venture that used 10-abreast BA 777s with BA flight deck crew and Flying Colours/JMC cabin crew in BA uniforms which had flight numbers in he BA45xx range): -
  • Abidjan, Ivory Coast
  • Accra, Ghana
  • Antigua
  • Atlanta, USA
  • Baku, Azerbaijan
  • Baltimore, USA
  • Bermuda
  • Bogotá, Colombia
  • Bridgetown, Barbados
  • Buenos Aires, Argentina
  • Cancun, Mexico^
  • Caracas, Venezuela
  • Charlotte, USA
  • Dallas/Fort Worth, USA
  • Dar es Salaam,
  • Denver, USA
  • Dhahran, Saudi Arabia
  • Entebbe/Kampala, Uganda
  • Grand Cayman^
  • Grenada
  • Harare, Zimbabwe
  • Havana, Cuba^
  • Houston, USA
  • Kingston, Jamaica^
  • Lagos, Nigeria
  • Lilongwe, Malawi
  • Lusaka, Zambia
  • Mauritius
  • Miami, USA
  • Montego Bay, Jamaica^
  • Nairobi, Kenya
  • Nassau, The Bahamas^
  • New York JFK, USA
  • Orlando, USA
  • Phoenix, USA
  • Pittsburgh, USA
  • Rio de Janeiro, Brazil
  • St Lucia
  • San Diego, USA
  • San José, Costa Rica^
  • San Juan, Puerto Rico^
  • Santiago, Chile
  • São Paulo, Brazil
  • Seychelles
  • Tashkent, Uzbekistan
  • Tel Aviv, Israel
  • Tobago, Trinidad & Tobago^

CityFlyer Express continued to grow at LGW, and introduced the Avro RJ100 as it both upgauged some of its existing routes (e.g. Amsterdam) as well as took on other routes from BA, e.g. Zürich. BA franchise carrier British Regional Airlines also operated a couple of routes for BA, both of which had been at LHR with BA and Manx Airlines respectively - Inverness and Isle of Man.

The problem for BA was that for the dual-hub to work effectively it had to split key shorthaul flights across both LGW and LHR. With passengers wanting frequency this presented difficulty in trying to have sufficient flights without LHR and LGW stealing traffic from each other. Add in, as has been mentioned elsewhere, the Asian economic crisis, dot-com bubble bursting and then 9/11 and BA was struggling to make the dual-hub strategy work effectively, especially with the rise of the LCCs. Add in BA's high cost base and things were just a constant struggle. BA made no bones that LGW shorthaul was struggling to make money (and that LHR wasn't much better but had a stronger longhaul network to feed). So BA started retrenching, especially after 9/11 allowed some flights to move back to LHR and others were discontinued. Add in that GB Airways, who had taken on a number of BA shorthaul "sun" routes were equally (if not more so) struggling against the LCCs, and the decision to acquire CityFlyer without preserving that cost base and BA were really struggling in the 2000s. Remember, this coincided with the attempts to make the UK regions work with acquisition and merger of the regional franchise carriers with BA Regional, operating Jungle Jets and the Avro RJ100s swapped from LGW for 737s as well as the ending of attempts to have a presence in Europe (Deutsche BA in Germany and TAT/Air Liberte in France).

There are lots of other reasons that contributed to it all going wrong for BA at LGW, but that in itself is perhaps too harsh a term. Rather, it should be what contributed to BA struggling to find a role for for LGW over the last 30 years? As the thirtieth anniversary of the BCal acquisition approaches in 2018 it could be said that BA has finally found that role - point-point focus destination for both shorthaul and longhaul leisure flying. The recent announcement that BA will be basing up to 25 777s at LGW shows a commitment to London's second airport, even if it does mean ten-abreast in economy and is partly about stopping Norwegian building a significant stronghold. BA is willing to take the fight this time after letting easyJet build up LGW to the extent it has.
Let's Go British Caledonian!
 
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readytotaxi
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Re: What went wrong for BA at LGW

Sun Nov 20, 2016 6:51 pm

Great post FlyCaledonian, lots of information there. :bigthumbsup:
you don't get a second chance to make a first impression!
Growing older, but not up.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: What went wrong for BA at LGW

Sun Nov 20, 2016 7:02 pm

FlyCaledonian wrote:
All Latin American routes (including Mexico City originally) and all African flights - bar those to Johnannesburg and Cape Town (including the tags from JNB to Durban and Gaboronne) - moved to LGW.

BA was opping LGW-MSY-MEX as far back as 1982... so had MEX moved from LGW, to LHR, only to go back to LGW?

I never remembered it being in LHR through to the dual hub, but could be mistaken.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
blacksoviet
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Re: What went wrong for BA at LGW

Sun Nov 20, 2016 7:03 pm

Did BA ever consider ordering the 753?
 
Mortyman
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Re: What went wrong for BA at LGW

Sun Nov 20, 2016 7:03 pm

Norwegian made it it's most important long haul hub
 
LHRFlyer
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Re: What went wrong for BA at LGW

Sun Nov 20, 2016 7:41 pm

Had GB Airways put itself up for sale today, then BA may have responded differently.

In 2008, the Heathrow operation needed a lot of attention with some very severe operational issues in T1/T4 prior to the move to Terminal 5 (and of course the chaotic opening of the terminal) which really did a lot of damage to its reputation worldwide. Buying GB Airways at the time would have been a big distraction.

BA made a lot of mistakes in terms of how it responded to easyJet and it seems determined not to repeat this with Norwegian.

Also, it has to be said BA is not the only airline to have retreated from Gatwick to Heathrow. Virgin has largely mirrored BA's long strategy of having business routes at LHR and leisure flights at LGW. Delta, American, Continental and US Airways all moved flights to Heathrow after Open Skies and there are lots of international airlines with a significant presence at Heathrow that do not serve Gatwick as well.
Last edited by LHRFlyer on Sun Nov 20, 2016 7:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
MAH4546
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Re: What went wrong forBA at LGW

Sun Nov 20, 2016 7:46 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
cornishsimon wrote:
I'm just surprised that MSY didn't launch from LGW

Shouldn't be.

MSY was seeking a network carrier+hub system, and the private incentives for such (representing not just MSY, but multiple cities in four states along the Gulf Coast-- Baton Rouge, Lafayette, Houma/Thibodaux, Gulfport/Biloxi, Mobile, Destin, etc) reflected that.

In short summary:
  • The local business AND tourism markets wanted LHR
  • The optimal model type was based at LHR
  • The feed to supplement was at LHR
  • The incentives were for a network hub, like LHR

...thus, the airline gave them: LHR. :)

From what I understand, DE took advantage of the same network hub luring incentives when they launched FRA-MSY.


*******************************
As for LON; a few years down the road, I wouldn't be surprised to see MSY (and possibly AUS) support both:
Daily BA to LHR and 1-3x weekly DY to LGW, or similar.



MSY doesn't have the volume to support how Norwegian works. I honestly don't even think Norwegian will expand past the U.S. cities it serves. It has the volume markets covered - expansion will rely on connecting its core U.S. markets to more European points.
a.
 
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FlyCaledonian
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Re: What went wrong for BA at LGW

Sun Nov 20, 2016 8:16 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
FlyCaledonian wrote:
All Latin American routes (including Mexico City originally) and all African flights - bar those to Johnannesburg and Cape Town (including the tags from JNB to Durban and Gaboronne) - moved to LGW.

BA was opping LGW-MSY-MEX as far back as 1982... so had MEX moved from LGW, to LHR, only to go back to LGW?

I never remembered it being in LHR through to the dual hub, but could be mistaken.

BA schedules I have for Summer 1985, Summer 1987, Winter 1988-89, Summer 1989, Winter 1989-90 and Summer 1992 show no Mexico City service from BA. The next schedule I have is Summer 1994 and this has BA operating Heathrow to Mexico City three times weekly (Tue/Thu/Sat) with the 747-436 as BA243/BA242. This is repeated in the Summer 1995 and Winter 1995-96 schedules I have. For Summer 1996 the flight had dropped to twice weekly (Tue/Sat) but still with the 747-436. It was back up to thrice weekly (Thu flight reinstated) for Winter 1996-97.

The move to Gatwick came for the Summer 1997 schedule, with a thrice weekly 747-436 operating Mon/Thu/Sat as BA2243/BA2242. I don't have a Winter 1997-98 schedule, but for Summer 1998 the Mexico flight was back at Heathrow, still thrice weekly (now Mon/Wed/Fri) and with its old flight numbers of BA243/BA242. Summer 1999 saw the flight go four weekly (Mon/Wed/Fri/Sat).

I don't know of Mexico City stayed at LGW for Winter 1997-98, but the fact it was back at LHR for Summer 1998 would indicate that BA felt that the flight needed to be at LHR and that feed at LGW was not sufficient (or rather from the right destinations).
Let's Go British Caledonian!
 
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FlyCaledonian
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Re: What went wrong for BA at LGW

Sun Nov 20, 2016 9:04 pm

For interest, here are some international destination lists for BA at LGW.

Winter 1988-89 (Just after closure of the BCal acquisition, so BCal network largely intact) saw 26 longhaul destinations served: -
  • Abidjan, Ivory Coast
  • Accra, Ghana
  • Antigua
  • Atlanta, USA
  • Banjul, The Gambia
  • Bridgetown, Barbados
  • Dallas/Fort Worth, USA
  • Douala, Cameroon
  • Dubai, UAE (operated as BR7382/BR7381)
  • Freetown, Sierra Leone
  • Gaborone, Botswana
  • Hong Kong (via DXB and operated as BR7382/BR7381)
  • Houston, USA
  • Kano, Nigeria
  • Kingston, Jamaica
  • Kinshasa, Zaire
  • Lagos, Nigeria
  • Los Angeles, USA
  • Lusaka, Zambia
  • Monrovia, Liberia
  • Montego Bay, Jamaica
  • New York JFK, USA (via MAN)
  • Orlando, USA (via MAN)
  • St Lucia
  • San Diego, USA (via LAX)
  • San Juan, Puerto Rico


Summer 1992 saw 24 international destinations served: -
  • Accra, Ghana
  • Antigua
  • Atlanta, USA
  • Bermuda
  • Bridgetown, Barbados
  • Dallas/Fort Worth, USA
  • Delhi, India
  • Dubai, UAE
  • Grenada
  • Hong Kong (via DEL)
  • Houston, USA
  • Islamabad, Pakistan (via MAN)
  • Kano, Nigeria
  • Kingston, Jamaica
  • Lagos, Nigeria
  • Manila, The Philippines (via DEL & HKG)
  • Mauritius
  • Montego Bay, Jamaica
  • New York JFK, USA
  • Orlando, USA
  • Port of Spain, Trinidad & Tobago
  • St Lucia
  • San Juan, Puerto Rico
  • The Seychelles


Summer 1995 saw 25 longhaul destinations served, including four served by Caledonian Airways on behalf of BA (marked ^): -
  • Accra, Ghana
  • Antigua
  • Atlanta, USA
  • Baltimore, USA
  • Bermuda
  • Bridgetown, Barbados
  • Charlotte, USA
  • Dallas/Fort Worth, USA
  • Grand Cayman, The Cayman Islands^
  • Grenada
  • Houston, USA
  • Islamabad, Pakistan (via MAN)
  • Kingston, Jamaica
  • Lagos, Nigeria
  • Mauritius
  • Miami, USA
  • Montego Bay, Jamaica
  • Nassau, The Bahamas^
  • New York JFK, USA
  • Orlando, USA
  • Pittsburgh, USA
  • St Lucia
  • San Juan, Puerto Rico^
  • The Seychelles
  • Tampa, USA^


Summer 1996 saw the number of longhaul destinations served increase to 36 as a number of African services moved over from LHR plus some new routes were launched. This included the four destinations served by Caledonian Airways on behalf of BA (marked ^): -
  • Abu Dhabi, UAE
  • Accra, Ghana
  • Antigua
  • Atlanta, USA
  • Baltimore, USA
  • Bermuda
  • Bridgetown, Barbados
  • Charlotte, USA
  • Colombo, Sri Lanka
  • Dallas/Fort Worth, USA
  • Dar es Salaam, Tanzania
  • Entebbe/Kampala, Uganda
  • Grand Cayman, The Cayman Islands^
  • Grenada
  • Harare, Zimbabwe
  • Houston, USA
  • Islamabad, Pakistan (via MAN)
  • Kano, Nigeria
  • Kingston, Jamaica
  • Lagos, Nigeria
  • Lilongwe, Malawi
  • Lusaka, Zambia
  • Mauritius
  • Miami, USA
  • Montego Bay, Jamaica
  • Nairobi, Kenya
  • Nassau, The Bahamas^
  • New York JFK, USA
  • Orlando, USA
  • Phoenix, USA
  • Pittsburgh, USA
  • St Lucia
  • San Diego, USA
  • San Juan, Puerto Rico^
  • The Seychelles
  • Tampa, USA^


Summer 1997 saw the number of longhaul destinations served further increase to 44 as a number of Latin American services moved over from LHR plus one new route was launched. This included four destinations previously served by Caledonian Airways on behalf of BA but now served by AML - BA aircraft and flight deck crew with Flying Colours cabin crew (marked ^): -
  • Abu Dhabi, UAE
  • Accra, Ghana
  • Antigua
  • Atlanta, USA
  • Baku, Azerbaijan
  • Baltimore, USA
  • Bermuda
  • Bogotá, Colombia
  • Bridgetown, Barbados
  • Buenos Aires, Argentina
  • Caracas, Venezuela
  • Charlotte, USA
  • Colombo, Sri Lanka
  • Dallas/Fort Worth, USA
  • Dar es Salaam, Tanzania
  • Entebbe/Kampala, Uganda
  • Grand Cayman, The Cayman Islands^
  • Grenada
  • Harare, Zimbabwe
  • Houston, USA
  • Islamabad, Pakistan (via MAN)
  • Kano, Nigeria
  • Kingston, Jamaica
  • Lagos, Nigeria
  • Lilongwe, Malawi
  • Lusaka, Zambia
  • Mauritius
  • Mexico City, Mexico
  • Miami, USA
  • Montego Bay, Jamaica
  • Nairobi, Kenya
  • Nassau, The Bahamas^
  • New York JFK, USA
  • Orlando, USA
  • Phoenix, USA
  • Pittsburgh, USA
  • Rio de Janeiro, Brazil
  • St Lucia
  • San Diego, USA
  • San Juan, Puerto Rico^
  • Santiago, Chile
  • São Paulo, Brazil
  • The Seychelles
  • Tampa, USA^
Let's Go British Caledonian!
 
RacheyFlies
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Re: What went wrong for BA at LGW

Sun Nov 20, 2016 10:11 pm

Now the B737 are solded and the B747 are solded or move to LHR.
The best plane I've flown is an A380. They were the biggest and the best than other plane I've been on. :lol:
 
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FlyCaledonian
Posts: 1987
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2003 6:18 am

Re: What went wrong for BA at LGW

Mon Nov 21, 2016 12:14 am

For comparison, here are some destination summaries for the shorthaul network. It includes BA franchise carriers and its European subsidiaries because these flights to/from LGW were all sold only under the BA code. I have, however, excluded codeshares.

In Summer 1992 BA was serving only thirteen shorthaul destinations from LGW, four of which were operated by franchise carrier CityFlyer Express (CJ) operating as British Airways Express: -
  • Antwerp, Belgium (CJ)
  • Bergamo, Italy
  • Bordeaux, France
  • Copenhagen, Denmark
  • Frankfurt, Germany
  • Geneva, Switzerland
  • Genoa, Italy
  • Guernsey (CJ)
  • Jersey (CJ)
  • Madrid, Spain
  • Malaga, Spain
  • Naples, Italy
  • Rotterdam, The Netherlands (CJ)


By Summer 1994 BA was now serving 32 shorthaul destinations from LGW, boosted by the collapse of Dan-Air in 1992. BA acquired the rump of Dan-Air’s scheduled operations for the nominal sum of £1 and in November 1992 this became British Airways (European Operations at Gatwick – EuroGatwick for short). A quarter of the routes were operated by franchise carrier CityFlyer Express (CJ) operating as British Airways Express: -
  • Aberdeen, UK
  • Antwerp (CJ)
  • Athens, Greece
  • Bordeaux, France
  • Brussels, Belgium
  • Copenhagen, Denmark
  • Dublin (CJ)
  • Düsseldorf (CJ)
  • Faro, Portugal
  • Frankfurt, Germany
  • Geneva, Switzerland
  • Genoa, Italy
  • Guernsey (CJ)
  • Jersey (CJ)
  • Leeds/Bradford (CJ)
  • Madrid, Spain
  • Malaga, Spain
  • Manchester, UK
  • Montpellier, France
  • Naples, Italy
  • Newcastle (CJ)
  • Nice, France
  • Oslo, Norway
  • Paris (Charles de Gaulle), France
  • Perpignan, France
  • Rome (Fiumicino), Italy
  • Rotterdam (CJ)
  • Stavanger, Norway
  • Tel Aviv, Israel
  • Toulouse, France
  • Verona, Italy
  • Vienna, Austria


By Summer 1997 the shorthaul network at LGW was continuing to expand to both support the dual-hub approach as well as taking on less profitable flights (or that had less transfer traffic) from LHR. The franchise carriers had also expanded. Alongside CityFlyer Express (CJ) were now GB Airways (GT) and Brymon Airways (BC). In addition, BA’s European subsidiaries were also serving LGW, namely Deutsche BA (DI) and TAT European (IJ). In total 73 shorthaul destinations were served: -
  • Aberdeen, UK
  • Agadir, Morocco (GT)
  • Amsterdam, The Netherlands (CJ)
  • Antwerp, Belgium (CJ)
  • Athens, Greece
  • Barcelona, Spain
  • Belgrade, Yugoslavia
  • Berlin (Tegel), Germany (DI)
  • Bordeaux, France
  • Bremen, Germany (CJ)
  • Bristol, UK (CJ)
  • Brussels, Belgium
  • Bucharest, Romania
  • Casablanca, Morocco (GT)
  • Cologne/Bonn, Germany (CJ)
  • Copenhagen, Denmark
  • Cork, Ireland (CJ)
  • Dublin, Ireland (CJ)
  • Düsseldorf, Germany (CJ)
  • Edinburgh, UK
  • Faro, Portugal (GT)
  • Frankfurt, Germany
  • Funchal (Madeira), Portugal (GT)
  • Geneva, Switzerland
  • Genoa, Italy
  • Gibraltar (GT)
  • Glasgow, UK
  • Gothenburg, Sweden
  • Guernsey (CJ)
  • Hamburg, Germany (DI)
  • Helsinki, Finland
  • Jerez de la Frontera, Spain (GT)
  • Jersey (CJ)
  • Kiev, Ukraine
  • Krakow, Poland
  • Leeds/Bradford, UK (CJ)
  • Lisbon, Portugal
  • Luxembourg (CJ)
  • Lyon, France
  • Madrid, Spain
  • Malaga, Spain (GT)
  • Malta (GT)
  • Manchester, UK
  • Marrakech, Morocco (GT)
  • Marseille, France
  • Milan (Linate), Italy
  • Montpellier, France
  • Moscow (Sheremetyevo), Russia
  • Munich, Germany (DI)
  • Murcia, Spain (GT)
  • Naples, Italy
  • Newcastle, UK (CJ)
  • Newquay, UK (BC)
  • Oslo, Norway
  • Paris (Charles de Gaulle), France
  • Perpignan, France
  • Pisa, Italy
  • Plymouth, UK (BC)
  • Porto, Portugal (GT)
  • Riga, Latvia
  • Rotterdam, The Netherlands (CJ)
  • Sofia, Bulgaria
  • Stavanger, Norway
  • Stockholm (Arlanda), Sweden
  • Tangier, Morocco (GT)
  • Tel Aviv, Israel
  • Toulouse, France (IJ)
  • Tunis, Tunisia (GT)
  • Valencia, Spain (GT)
  • Verona, Italy
  • Vienna, Austria
  • Zagreb, Croatia
  • Zürich, Switzerland


By Summer 1999 the shorthaul network at LGW had seen several destinations served in 1997 dropped, as new routes were added or transferred from LHR. Alongside CityFlyer Express (CJ), GB Airways (GT) and Brymon Airways (BC) was now British Regional Airlines (TH). In addition, BA’s European subsidiaries continued to serve LGW, namely Deutsche BA (DI) and Air Liberté (IJ). In total 74 shorthaul destinations were served: -
  • Aberdeen, UK
  • Agadir, Morocco (GT)
  • Alicante, Spain (GT)
  • Amsterdam, The Netherlands (CJ)
  • Athens, Greece
  • Barcelona, Spain
  • Belgrade, Yugoslavia
  • Bordeaux, France
  • Bremen, Germany (CJ)
  • Bristol, UK (CJ)
  • Brussels, Belgium
  • Bucharest, Romania
  • Casablanca, Morocco (GT)
  • Cologne/Bonn, Germany (CJ)
  • Cork, Ireland (CJ)
  • Dublin, Ireland (CJ)
  • Düsseldorf, Germany (CJ)
  • Edinburgh, UK
  • Faro, Portugal (GT)
  • Frankfurt, Germany
  • Funchal (Madeira), Portugal (GT)
  • Gdansk, Poland
  • Geneva, Switzerland
  • Genoa, Italy
  • Gibraltar (GT)
  • Glasgow, UK
  • Gothenburg, Sweden
  • Guernsey (CJ)
  • Hamburg, Germany (DI)
  • Inverness, UK (TH)
  • Jersey (CJ)
  • Krakow, Poland
  • Kyiv, Ukraine
  • Lisbon, Portugal (GT)
  • Ljubljana, Slovenia
  • Luxembourg (CJ)
  • Madrid, Spain
  • Malaga, Spain (GT)
  • Malta (GT)
  • Manchester, UK
  • Marrakech, Morocco (GT)
  • Marseille, France
  • Milan (Malpensa), Italy
  • Montpellier, France
  • Moscow (Sheremetyevo), Russia
  • Munich, Germany (DI)
  • Murcia, Spain (GT)
  • Naples, Italy
  • Newcastle, UK (CJ)
  • Newquay, UK (BC)
  • Nice, France (CJ)
  • Oslo, Norway
  • Palma (Mallorca), Spain (GT)
  • Paris (Charles de Gaulle), France
  • Pisa, Italy
  • Plymouth, UK (BC)
  • Porto, Portugal (GT)
  • Riga, Latvia
  • Rome (Fiumicino), Italy
  • Rotterdam, The Netherlands (CJ)
  • St Petersburg, Russia
  • Seville, Spain (GT)
  • Sofia, Bulgaria
  • Stockholm (Arlanda), Sweden
  • Tangier, Morocco (GT)
  • Toulouse, France (IJ)
  • Trieste, Italy
  • Tunis, Tunisia (GT)
  • Valencia, Spain (GT)
  • Verona, Italy
  • Vienna, Austria
  • Vilnius, Lithuania
  • Zagreb, Croatia
  • Zürich, Switzerland (CJ)
Last edited by FlyCaledonian on Mon Nov 21, 2016 12:27 am, edited 2 times in total.
Let's Go British Caledonian!
 
RacheyFlies
Posts: 191
Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2016 2:48 pm

Re: What went wrong for BA at LGW

Mon Nov 21, 2016 12:18 am

FlyCaledonian wrote:
For comparison, here are some destination summaries for the shorthaul network. It includes BA franchise carriers and its European subsidiaries because these flights to/from LGW were all sold only under the BA code. I have, however, excluded codeshares.

In Summer 1992 BA was serving only thirteen shorthaul destinations from LGW, four of which were operated by franchise carrier CityFlyer Express (CJ) operating as British Airways Express: -
  • Antwerp, Belgium (CJ)
  • Bergamo, Italy
  • Bordeaux, France
  • Copenhagen, Denmark
  • Frankfurt, Germany
  • Geneva, Switzerland
  • Genoa, Italy
  • Guernsey (CJ)
  • Jersey (CJ)
  • Madrid, Spain
  • Malaga, Spain
  • Naples, Italy
  • Rotterdam, The Netherlands (CJ)


By Summer 1994 BA was now serving 32 shorthaul destinations from LGW, boosted by the collapse of Dan-Air in 1992. BA acquired the rump of Dan-Air’s scheduled operations for the nominal sum of £1 and in November 1992 this became British Airways (European Operations at Gatwick – EuroGatwick for short). A quarter of the routes were operated by franchise carrier CityFlyer Express (CJ) operating as British Airways Express: -
  • Aberdeen, UK
  • Antwerp (CJ)
  • Athens, Greece
  • Bordeaux, France
  • Brussels, Belgium
  • Copenhagen, Denmark
  • Dublin (CJ)
  • Düsseldorf (CJ)
  • Faro, Portugal
  • Frankfurt, Germany
  • Geneva, Switzerland
  • Genoa, Italy
  • Guernsey (CJ)
  • Jersey (CJ)
  • Leeds/Bradford (CJ)
  • Madrid, Spain
  • Malaga, Spain
  • Manchester, UK
  • Montpellier, France
  • Naples, Italy
  • Newcastle (CJ)
  • Nice, France
  • Oslo, Norway
  • Paris (Charles de Gaulle), France
  • Perpignan, France
  • Rome (Fiumicino), Italy
  • Rotterdam (CJ)
  • Stavanger, Norway
  • Tel Aviv, Israel
  • Toulouse, France
  • Verona, Italy
  • Vienna, Austria


By Summer 1997 the shorthaul network at LGW was continuing to expand to both support the dual-hub approach as well as taking on less profitable flights (or that had less transfer traffic) from LHR. The franchise carriers had also expanded. Alongside CityFlyer Express (CJ) were now GB Airways (GT) and Brymon Airways (BC). In addition, BA’s European subsidiaries were also serving LGW, namely Deutsche BA (DI) and TAT European (IJ). In total 73 shorthaul destinations were served: -
  • Aberdeen, UK
  • Agadir, Morocco (GT)
  • Amsterdam, The Netherlands (CJ)
  • Antwerp, Belgium (CJ)
  • Athens, Greece
  • Barcelona, Spain
  • Belgrade, Yugoslavia
  • Berlin (Tegel), Germany (DI)
  • Bordeaux, France
  • Bremen, Germany (CJ)
  • Bristol, UK (CJ)
  • Brussels, Belgium
  • Bucharest, Romania
  • Casablanca, Morocco (GT)
  • Cologne/Bonn, Germany (CJ)
  • Copenhagen, Denmark
  • Cork, Ireland (CJ)
  • Dublin, Ireland (CJ)
  • Düsseldorf, Germany (CJ)
  • Edinburgh, UK
  • Faro, Portugal (GT)
  • Frankfurt, Germany
  • Funchal (Madeira), Portugal (GT)
  • Geneva, Switzerland
  • Genoa, Italy
  • Gibraltar (GT)
  • Glasgow, UK
  • Gothenburg, Sweden
  • Guernsey (CJ)
  • Hamburg, Germany (DI)
  • Helsinki, Finland
  • Jerez de la Frontera, Spain (GT)
  • Jersey (CJ)
  • Kiev, Ukraine
  • Krakow, Poland
  • Leeds/Bradford, UK (CJ)
  • Lisbon, Portugal
  • Luxembourg (CJ)
  • Lyon, France
  • Madrid, Spain
  • Malaga, Spain (GT)
  • Malta (GT)
  • Manchester, UK
  • Marrakech, Morocco (GT)
  • Marseille, France
  • Milan (Linate), Italy
  • Montpellier, France
  • Moscow (Sheremetyevo), Russia
  • Munich, Germany (DI)
  • Murcia, Spain (GT)
  • Naples, Italy
  • Newcastle, UK (CJ)
  • Newquay, UK (BC)
  • Oslo, Norway
  • Paris (Charles de Gaulle), France
  • Perpignan, France
  • Pisa, Italy
  • Plymouth, UK (BC)
  • Porto, Portugal (GT)
  • Riga, Latvia
  • Rotterdam, The Netherlands (CJ)
  • Sofia, Bulgaria
  • Stavanger, Norway
  • Stockholm (Arlanda), Sweden
  • Tangier, Morocco (GT)
  • Tel Aviv, Israel
  • Toulouse, France (IJ)
  • Tunis, Tunisia (GT)
  • Valencia, Spain (GT)
  • Verona, Italy
  • Vienna, Austria
  • Zagreb, Croatia
  • Zürich, Switzerland


By Summer 1999 the shorthaul network at LGW had seen several destinations served in 1997 dropped, as new routes were added or transferred from LHR. Alongside CityFlyer Express (CJ), GB Airways (GT) and Brymon Airways (BC) was now British Regional Airlines (TH). In addition, BA’s European subsidiaries continued to serve LGW, namely Deutsche BA (DI) and Air Liberté (IJ). In total 74 shorthaul destinations were served: -
  • Aberdeen, UK
  • Agadir, Morocco (GT)
  • Alicante, Spain (GT)
  • Amsterdam, The Netherlands (CJ)
  • Athens, Greece
  • Barcelona, Spain
  • Belgrade, Yugoslavia
  • Bordeaux, France
  • Bremen, Germany (CJ)
  • Bristol, UK (CJ)
  • Brussels, Belgium
  • Bucharest, Romania
  • Casablanca, Morocco (GT)
  • Cologne/Bonn, Germany (CJ)
  • Cork, Ireland (CJ)
  • Dublin, Ireland (CJ)
  • Düsseldorf, Germany (CJ)
  • Edinburgh, UK
  • Faro, Portugal (GT)
  • Frankfurt, Germany
  • Funchal (Madeira), Portugal (GT)
  • Gdansk, Poland
  • Geneva, Switzerland
  • Genoa, Italy
  • Gibraltar (GT)
  • Glasgow, UK
  • Gothenburg, Sweden
  • Guernsey (CJ)
  • Hamburg, Germany (DI)
  • Inverness, UK (TH)
  • Jersey (CJ)
  • Krakow, Poland
  • Kyiv, Ukraine
  • Lisbon, Portugal (GT)
  • Ljubljana, Slovenia
  • Luxembourg (CJ)
  • Madrid, Spain
  • Malaga, Spain (GT)
  • Malta (GT)
  • Manchester, UK
  • Marrakech, Morocco (GT)
  • Marseille, France
  • Milan (Malpensa), Italy
  • Montpellier, France
  • Moscow (Sheremetyevo), Russia
  • Munich, Germany (DI)
  • Murcia, Spain (GT)
  • Naples, Italy
  • Newcastle, UK (CJ)
  • Newquay, UK (BC)
  • Nice, France (CJ)
  • Oslo, Norway
  • Palma (Mallorca), Spain (GT)
  • Paris (Charles de Gaulle), France
  • Pisa, Italy
  • Plymouth, UK (BC)
  • Porto, Portugal (GT)
  • Riga, Latvia
  • Rome (Fiumicino), Italy
  • Rotterdam, The Netherlands (CJ)
  • St Petersburg, Russia
  • Seville, Spain (GT)
  • Sofia, Bulgaria
  • Stockholm (Arlanda), Sweden
  • Tangier, Morocco (GT)
  • Toulouse, France (IJ)
  • Trieste, Italy
  • Tunis, Tunisia (GT)
  • Valencia, Spain (GT)
  • Verona, Italy
  • Vienna, Austria
  • Vilnius, Lithuania
  • Zagreb, Croatia
  • Zürich, Switzerland (CJ)

Now I think many has already move to LHR, am I correct?
The best plane I've flown is an A380. They were the biggest and the best than other plane I've been on. :lol:
 
blacksoviet
Posts: 1770
Joined: Thu Apr 21, 2016 10:50 am

Re: What went wrong for BA at LGW

Mon Nov 21, 2016 12:25 am

Why did BA retire the 747-100? How much more range did the 747-236B have over the 747-100? Is Terminal 1 abandoned? Who owns Terminal 4?
 
RacheyFlies
Posts: 191
Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2016 2:48 pm

Re: What went wrong for BA at LGW

Mon Nov 21, 2016 12:29 am

blacksoviet wrote:
Why did BA retire the 747-100? How much more range did the 747-236B have over the 747-100? Is Terminal 1 abandoned? Who owns Terminal 4?

They retire the 747-100 maybe because the -400 is more bigger and better than that one, the 747-100 comes from BOA first than the -200 and -400 powered by RB211 is belong to BA after merger in 1974. The Terminal what u say is not clear what airport is that?
The best plane I've flown is an A380. They were the biggest and the best than other plane I've been on. :lol:
 
User avatar
FlyCaledonian
Posts: 1987
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2003 6:18 am

Re: What went wrong for BA at LGW

Mon Nov 21, 2016 12:32 am

To do some comparisons, here is the Summer 1994 longhaul destination list (25 in total): -
  • Accra, Ghana
  • Aden, Yemen
  • Antigua
  • Atlanta, USA
  • Baltimore, USA
  • Bermuda
  • Bridgetown, Barbados
  • Charlotte, USA
  • Dallas/Fort Worth, USA
  • Grenada
  • Houston (Intercontinental), USA
  • Islamabad, Pakistan
  • Kano, Nigeria
  • Kingston, Jamaica
  • Lagos, Nigeria
  • Mauritius
  • Montego Bay, Jamaica
  • New York (John F Kennedy), USA
  • Orlando, USA
  • Pittsburgh, USA
  • Port of Spain, Trinidad & Tobago
  • San Juan, Puerto Rico
  • Sana’a, Yemen
  • The Seychelles
  • St. Lucia


If you total up the shorthaul and longhaul destinations for the years where I have posted both sets you get the following: -
  • 1992 - 24 longhaul + 13 shorthaul = 37 destinations
  • 1994 - 25 longhaul + 32 shorthaul = 57 destinations
  • 1997 - 44 longhaul + 73 shorthaul = 117 destinations
  • 1999 - 47 longhaul + 74 shorthaul = 121 destinations
Let's Go British Caledonian!
 
skipness1E
Posts: 4856
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 9:18 am

Re: What went wrong for BA at LGW

Mon Nov 21, 2016 12:35 am

Where are we getting the 25 B777s at Gatters from? That's more than double of what's there now.
 
Viscount724
Posts: 19316
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

Re: What went wrong for BA at LGW

Mon Nov 21, 2016 12:47 am

blacksoviet wrote:
Did BA ever consider ordering the 753?


Highly unlikely. The 752 turned out to be too big for BA so the 753 would have made no sense.
 
Viscount724
Posts: 19316
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

Re: What went wrong for BA at LGW

Mon Nov 21, 2016 12:55 am

blacksoviet wrote:
Why did BA retire the 747-100? How much more range did the 747-236B have over the 747-100? Is Terminal 1 abandoned? Who owns Terminal 4?


The BA 741s were approaching 30 years old and must have been quite maintenance-intensive. They were also the only BA aircraft with Pratt & Whitney engines

LHR T1 closed in June 2015 to permit the next phase of T2 expansion.

Heathrow Airport Holdings, the airport operator, owns all LHR terminals as far as I know.
 
User avatar
LAX772LR
Posts: 13345
Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2014 11:06 pm

Re: What went wrong forBA at LGW

Mon Nov 21, 2016 2:48 am

MAH4546 wrote:
MSY doesn't have the volume to support how Norwegian works.

Perhaps, but they themselves (in fact, direct quote from their CEO) mentioned MSY (unprompted) as one of their target cities, just this year. So, there's that.

He also mentioned MEM, which itself has farrrr less volume even then.

http://web.archive.org/web/201604211110 ... ights.html



FlyCaledonian wrote:
BA schedules I have for Summer 1985, Summer 1987, Winter 1988-89, Summer 1989, Winter 1989-90 and Summer 1992 show no Mexico City service from BA.

BA's LGW-MSY-MEX service was done by 1983, as MEX went nonstop. But from what you're saying, apparently didn't make it to '85. Interesting.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
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FlyCaledonian
Posts: 1987
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2003 6:18 am

Re: What went wrong for BA at LGW

Mon Nov 21, 2016 9:02 pm

skipness1E wrote:
Where are we getting the 25 B777s at Gatters from? That's more than double of what's there now.

Was confirmed at the recent IAG investors day briefing. Believed to be all the G-YMMx aircraft (19) and the five existing three-class GE LGW birds (5). Not sure where the 25th aircraft will come from.
Let's Go British Caledonian!
 
by738
Posts: 3116
Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2000 7:59 am

Re: What went wrong for BA at LGW

Mon Nov 21, 2016 9:47 pm

was it not just 25 to be converted, but without stating location?
 
tonystan
Posts: 1711
Joined: Sat Jan 07, 2006 7:39 am

Re: What went wrong for BA at LGW

Tue Nov 22, 2016 12:41 am

FlyCaledonian wrote:
skipness1E wrote:
Where are we getting the 25 B777s at Gatters from? That's more than double of what's there now.

Was confirmed at the recent IAG investors day briefing. Believed to be all the G-YMMx aircraft (19) and the five existing three-class GE LGW birds (5). Not sure where the 25th aircraft will come from.


They are not all going to LGW. Many will stay at LHR.
My views are my own and do not reflect any other person or organisation.
 
richardw
Posts: 3168
Joined: Tue May 08, 2001 3:17 am

Re: What went wrong for BA at LGW

Tue Nov 22, 2016 9:02 am

Generally it's letting easyJet grow and not marrying KLM and currently eliminating some of their USPs.
 
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readytotaxi
Posts: 7528
Joined: Mon Dec 11, 2006 2:09 am

Re: What went wrong for BA at LGW

Tue Nov 22, 2016 10:17 am

Did BA ever operate B757's out of LGW ?
you don't get a second chance to make a first impression!
Growing older, but not up.
 
RacheyFlies
Posts: 191
Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2016 2:48 pm

Re: What went wrong for BA at LGW

Tue Nov 22, 2016 3:23 pm

The other thing I know about their LGW hub is to increase capacity on both short haul and long haul aircraft and charging food and drinks from January 2017.

This comes out the same way like the LHR hub does.
The best plane I've flown is an A380. They were the biggest and the best than other plane I've been on. :lol:
 
Tristarsteve
Posts: 3673
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Re: What went wrong for BA at LGW

Tue Nov 22, 2016 6:14 pm

Did BA ever operate B757's out of LGW ?

Yes. In the couple of years before 9/11, here at Stockholm we had two BA departures every morning. A B767 to LHR at 0705 and a B757 to LGW at 0710.
430 pax to check in, and no one ever arrived at check in until 0600!
There were at least 2 more LGW flights every day, and one season there were total of 4. But they were filled with low yield customers, and 6 months after 9/11 they were all scrapped.
 
BrianDromey
Posts: 2796
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Re: What went wrong for BA at LGW

Tue Nov 22, 2016 8:19 pm

FlyCaledonian wrote:
If you total up the shorthaul and longhaul destinations for the years where I have posted both sets you get the following: -
  • 1992 - 24 longhaul + 13 shorthaul = 37 destinations
  • 1994 - 25 longhaul + 32 shorthaul = 57 destinations
  • 1997 - 44 longhaul + 73 shorthaul = 117 destinations
  • 1999 - 47 longhaul + 74 shorthaul = 121 destinations


Was it after the "Future Size and Shape Review" of 2002 that the LGW presence shrank dramatically? As we can see BA have had a surprisingly modest presence at LGW for many years, it was really only the later 90s that the presence was significant - most of the destinations were for bilateral reasons, today the LGW network stands on its own two feet - it has to.

I think BA made several strategic errors around the millennium.
BA decided to move 737 and A319s away from regional airports and instead place them at LHR and LGW, moving ARJ, CRJ and ERJ fleets to the regions. When U2 (and others) came along, BA couldn't complete.
BA spent a fortune building Go - their own, proper, LCC. Go was not an airline within an airline. BA then sold it off and ultimately it ended up being bought by U2.
BA let KL a merger with KL slide away, something they repeated with LX.
Later BA did much better being founding member of IAG and the TransAtlantic JV, but by then a lot of options had expired.

In a parallel universe I imagine Go having a large presence at many UK airports, STN and LGW (just like U2 does today), KL feeding AMS (as it does today) and BA feeding LHR (much as it does today).
 
shuttle9juliet
Posts: 355
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Re: What went wrong for BA at LGW

Tue Nov 22, 2016 9:40 pm

readytotaxi wrote:
Did BA ever operate B757's out of LGW ?

We used to operate them to Edinburgh too, albeit for a very short time.
 
jfk777
Posts: 7388
Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2006 7:23 am

Re: What went wrong for BA at LGW

Tue Nov 22, 2016 10:59 pm

When all the high yield traffic to the southern US cities that were "Gatwicked" could and did move to Heathrow the core of the Gatwick operation went with it. A flights full of tourists to Orlando or Tampa is not the same as Houston, DFW or Atlanta.
 
Cunard
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Re: What went wrong for BA at LGW

Wed Nov 23, 2016 4:59 pm

RacheyFlies wrote:
The other thing I know about their LGW hub is to increase capacity on both short haul and long haul aircraft and charging food and drinks from January 2017.

This comes out the same way like the LHR hub does.


Your not really making any contribution to this discussion regarding BA/BCAL/Caledonian at LGW with your irrelevant posts unless you think you are!
94 Countries, 327 Destinations Worldwide, 32 Airlines, 29 Aircraft Types, 182 Airports, 335 Flights.
 
skipness1E
Posts: 4856
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Re: What went wrong for BA at LGW

Wed Nov 23, 2016 5:07 pm

When all the high yield traffic to the southern US cities that were "Gatwicked" could and did move to Heathrow the core of the Gatwick operation went with it. A flights full of tourists to Orlando or Tampa is not the same as Houston, DFW or Atlanta.

I remember after the last financial crash 2008 into 2009 that BA LGW long haul was the only money making part of BA for while despite sub par hard product. It seems to do quite well albeit in a different market space. It's a mistake that most of these B777s are engaged on "much cheapness" type holidays. (JFK is likely the current exception to that).There's a fair bit of (often nonpaid) premium demand often via AVIOS redemption which is front and centre to keeping hold of all of those frequent fliers.
 
inaforeignsky
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Re: What went wrong for BA at LGW

Wed Nov 23, 2016 10:34 pm

Am I the only one who can't stand the nickname 'Gatters'?! It's exactly the same number of letters as typing Gatwick, so hardly saves time! I've been an FO for BA at LHR for a little over 18 months now, and I'm yet to hear anyone referred to it as 'Gatters', what's the origin?!
 
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TedToToe
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Joined: Mon Dec 08, 2014 11:43 pm

Re: What went wrong for BA at LGW

Wed Nov 23, 2016 11:03 pm

inaforeignsky wrote:
Am I the only one who can't stand the nickname 'Gatters'?! It's exactly the same number of letters as typing Gatwick, so hardly saves time! I've been an FO for BA at LHR for a little over 18 months now, and I'm yet to hear anyone referred to it as 'Gatters', what's the origin?!

Not sure if it predates a certain England cricketer, but I recall LGW being referred to as Gatters in the 80's.
 
RacheyFlies
Posts: 191
Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2016 2:48 pm

Re: What went wrong for BA at LGW

Wed Nov 23, 2016 11:10 pm

Will they also launch to Limoges this May?
The best plane I've flown is an A380. They were the biggest and the best than other plane I've been on. :lol:
 
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TedToToe
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Joined: Mon Dec 08, 2014 11:43 pm

Re: What went wrong for BA at LGW

Wed Nov 23, 2016 11:30 pm

RacheyFlies wrote:
Will they also launch to Limoges this May?

Yes! https://www.britishairways.com/en-gb/fl ... new-routes
 
jfk777
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Re: What went wrong for BA at LGW

Wed Nov 23, 2016 11:42 pm

Why is this thread about what went "wrong" at Gatwick. LGW function is to relieve and supplement LHR, that mission has evolved and changed over the years. Now BA seems to be headed for an anti Norwegian strategy with flights to Oakland and Ft. Lauderdale plus existing Orlando & Tampa. IF it does get 25 777-200ER at Gatwick they have lots of schedules to announce since that would about double their long haul presence. Interesting times at LGW, there is lots "right" going on and nothing wrong.
 
oldannyboy
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Re: What went wrong for BA at LGW

Thu Nov 24, 2016 11:00 am

FlyCaledonian wrote:
Bongodog1964 wrote:
My recollection is somewhat different to much of the above:
The expansion of BA's operations into a 2nd hub was a policy in the reign of Bob Ayling, No one could accuse him of being over cautious, despite operating the World's largest fleet of 744's it ended up withe rather less than he anticipated as later orders were swapped for 772's.
Firstly the financial crisis in the late 90's and then 9/11 left BA in a perilous financial position and the only logical way out was to sell off what could be sold and shut down all that was unprofitable at LGW. This retrenchment and cost cutting was the major feature during the Rod Eddington years.

U2 didn't force BA out of LGW, in those days U2 was predominately a LTN based airline who then picked up the GO operation at STN from BA. They then took advantage of BA's withdrawal from LGW to move into there as well.

Exactly, BA did pursue a dual-hub policy that at one point did see BA (including franchise carriers) serve more destinations from LGW than LHR.

Until the mid-1980s BA had a minimal presence at LGW, with a handful of shorthaul flights. Then came the acquisition of British Caledonian and BA suddenly had a decent presence at LGW with flights to West and Central Africa and the Southern USA (IAH, ATL, DFW). Some of the BCal traffic rights were transferred to LHR, such as Saudi Arabia and Hong Kong. In the opposite direction BA started moving some Caribbean flying from LHR. BA didn't keep the BCal shorthaul network as it stood though and was forced to shed some scheduled route licences to Air Europe, Dan-Air and Air UK.

BA had room to grow shorthaul at LGW following the collapse of Air Europe in 1991 and then Dan-Air (DA) in 1992. With the latter collapse BA acquired the secheduled operation of DA for the nominal sum of £1, that included taking on leases of fairly new Boeing 737-300 and 737-400 aircraft to operate alongside BA's 737-236 ADV fleet. BA also developed an arrangement with independent carrier CityFlyer Express who operated its ATR42 (and later ATR72) aircraft in BA colours as British Airways Express, initially serving routes such as Leeds/Bradford, Newcastle, Antwerp and Rotterdam.

The big change came in the mid-1990s when BA decided to pursue the dual hub strategy. Constrained at LHR the plan was to move a number of shorthaul and longhaul routes to LGW. All Latin American routes (including Mexico City originally) and all African flights - bar those to Johnannesburg and Cape Town (including the tags from JNB to Durban and Gaboronne) - moved to LGW. Various shorthaul routes also got "Gatwicked" over a few years, including those of BA subsiduary Brymon Airways to Plymouth and Newquay using the DHC Dash 8, Inverness, Jersey and Italian routes excluding Rome and Milan. This allowed BA to grow the longhaul network to North America, the Middle East and Far East at LHR as well as up frequencies on core business routes.

LGW didn't lose out in this move, as the fleet there continued to grow. Indeed, by Summer 1997 BA actually moved the LGW based 747-236B fleet (over half of BA's 16 aircraft had been based at LGW) to LHR and moved more 747-436 aircraft to LGW to only have one 747 fleet there. The 777s were also coming on board to replace the DC-10s and a number of 767-336ER aircraft were also operating at LGW, including on services to Pittsburgh, Charlotte and Baltimore that had been operated by USAir with their 767-200ERs in BA colours. On the longhaul front, although Bermuda II was responsible for keeping a number of flights at LGW, BA was adding flights too with LGW-Phoenix-San Diego that started with a DC-10, moved to the 777, then the 747-436 before being split into separate flights. Denver was also added whilst the application to serve Las Vegas was lost to VS. (VS also beat BA to serve Shanghai from LHR).

In Summer 1999 BA were serving 47 longhaul destinations from LGW (^ including those served by the BA/AML joint venture that used 10-abreast BA 777s with BA flight deck crew and Flying Colours/JMC cabin crew in BA uniforms which had flight numbers in he BA45xx range): -
  • Abidjan, Ivory Coast
  • Accra, Ghana
  • Antigua
  • Atlanta, USA
  • Baku, Azerbaijan
  • Baltimore, USA
  • Bermuda
  • Bogotá, Colombia
  • Bridgetown, Barbados
  • Buenos Aires, Argentina
  • Cancun, Mexico^
  • Caracas, Venezuela
  • Charlotte, USA
  • Dallas/Fort Worth, USA
  • Dar es Salaam,
  • Denver, USA
  • Dhahran, Saudi Arabia
  • Entebbe/Kampala, Uganda
  • Grand Cayman^
  • Grenada
  • Harare, Zimbabwe
  • Havana, Cuba^
  • Houston, USA
  • Kingston, Jamaica^
  • Lagos, Nigeria
  • Lilongwe, Malawi
  • Lusaka, Zambia
  • Mauritius
  • Miami, USA
  • Montego Bay, Jamaica^
  • Nairobi, Kenya
  • Nassau, The Bahamas^
  • New York JFK, USA
  • Orlando, USA
  • Phoenix, USA
  • Pittsburgh, USA
  • Rio de Janeiro, Brazil
  • St Lucia
  • San Diego, USA
  • San José, Costa Rica^
  • San Juan, Puerto Rico^
  • Santiago, Chile
  • São Paulo, Brazil
  • Seychelles
  • Tashkent, Uzbekistan
  • Tel Aviv, Israel
  • Tobago, Trinidad & Tobago^

CityFlyer Express continued to grow at LGW, and introduced the Avro RJ100 as it both upgauged some of its existing routes (e.g. Amsterdam) as well as took on other routes from BA, e.g. Zürich. BA franchise carrier British Regional Airlines also operated a couple of routes for BA, both of which had been at LHR with BA and Manx Airlines respectively - Inverness and Isle of Man.

The problem for BA was that for the dual-hub to work effectively it had to split key shorthaul flights across both LGW and LHR. With passengers wanting frequency this presented difficulty in trying to have sufficient flights without LHR and LGW stealing traffic from each other. Add in, as has been mentioned elsewhere, the Asian economic crisis, dot-com bubble bursting and then 9/11 and BA was struggling to make the dual-hub strategy work effectively, especially with the rise of the LCCs. Add in BA's high cost base and things were just a constant struggle. BA made no bones that LGW shorthaul was struggling to make money (and that LHR wasn't much better but had a stronger longhaul network to feed). So BA started retrenching, especially after 9/11 allowed some flights to move back to LHR and others were discontinued. Add in that GB Airways, who had taken on a number of BA shorthaul "sun" routes were equally (if not more so) struggling against the LCCs, and the decision to acquire CityFlyer without preserving that cost base and BA were really struggling in the 2000s. Remember, this coincided with the attempts to make the UK regions work with acquisition and merger of the regional franchise carriers with BA Regional, operating Jungle Jets and the Avro RJ100s swapped from LGW for 737s as well as the ending of attempts to have a presence in Europe (Deutsche BA in Germany and TAT/Air Liberte in France).

There are lots of other reasons that contributed to it all going wrong for BA at LGW, but that in itself is perhaps too harsh a term. Rather, it should be what contributed to BA struggling to find a role for for LGW over the last 30 years? As the thirtieth anniversary of the BCal acquisition approaches in 2018 it could be said that BA has finally found that role - point-point focus destination for both shorthaul and longhaul leisure flying. The recent announcement that BA will be basing up to 25 777s at LGW shows a commitment to London's second airport, even if it does mean ten-abreast in economy and is partly about stopping Norwegian building a significant stronghold. BA is willing to take the fight this time after letting easyJet build up LGW to the extent it has.


Wow, what an amazing, in-depth response! Thank you Mr Caledonian!

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