Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
User avatar
LeCoqFrancais
Topic Author
Posts: 418
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 3:03 pm

BR68, LHR-BKK, EVA Air flies London-Bangkok??

Wed Nov 23, 2016 10:02 pm

Dear A.net members,

Could someone explain to me why it seems that EVA Air operates from London to Bangkok instead of London to Taipei under the flight # BR68? I was pretty certain that the 77W could fly LHR-TPE non-stop, am I wrong?

Regards;
Sébastien C. Tourillon
 
[email protected]
Posts: 16616
Joined: Sat Jan 13, 2001 6:29 pm

Re: BR68, LHR-BKK, EVA Air flies London-Bangkok??

Wed Nov 23, 2016 10:24 pm

Presumably insufficient demand for LHR-TPE, even with certain sixth freedom options thereafter, while benefiting from fifth freedom traffic rights on LHR-BKK-LHR and of course full rights BKK-TPE-BKK.
"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
 
Anansaudiajet
Posts: 15
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:22 pm

Re: BR68, LHR-BKK, EVA Air flies London-Bangkok??

Wed Nov 23, 2016 10:24 pm

Flights from Taiwan weren't allowed to overfly China. Eva Air TPE-CDG is an exception. Now CI is planning nonstop AMS, FCO and LHR
 
Newbiepilot
Posts: 3642
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2016 10:18 pm

Re: BR68, LHR-BKK, EVA Air flies London-Bangkok??

Wed Nov 23, 2016 10:43 pm

I think Eva flies to Amsterdam, London and Vienna through Bangkok. Cathay Pacific had a mini hub in BKK a few years ago flying to places like Singapore and Colombo. The Thai government pretty much let's any airline have 5th and sometimes 7th freedom rights in an attempt to promote tourism and increase traffic at BKK. So far it has worked well to keep air service high, fares low and Thailand as one of the most popular tourist destinations in the world.
 
theobcman
Posts: 583
Joined: Sun Nov 14, 2010 11:16 am

Re: BR68, LHR-BKK, EVA Air flies London-Bangkok??

Wed Nov 23, 2016 10:48 pm

BR does very well on BKK-LHR-BKK. Pax & cargo. Certainly has been busy every time I've flown the route & there's been a few !
 
RacheyFlies
Posts: 191
Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2016 2:48 pm

Re: BR68, LHR-BKK, EVA Air flies London-Bangkok??

Wed Nov 23, 2016 10:53 pm

[email protected] wrote:
Presumably insufficient demand for LHR-TPE, even with certain sixth freedom options thereafter, while benefiting from fifth freedom traffic rights on LHR-BKK-LHR and of course full rights BKK-TPE-BKK.

Could be this, but I think they may only operate nonstop maybe later when the demand was good.
The best plane I've flown is an A380. They were the biggest and the best than other plane I've been on. :lol:
 
Ugly51
Posts: 120
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2016 7:48 am

Re: BR68, LHR-BKK, EVA Air flies London-Bangkok??

Thu Nov 24, 2016 1:31 am

I have flown EVA from BKK-LHR-BKK route on a few occasions. BA and Thai are very expensive in the Premium Classes on this route. With good forward planning you can get some very good deals with Eva. It's also a very decent Business Class product.
 
trex8
Posts: 5597
Joined: Sat Nov 02, 2002 9:04 am

Re: BR68, LHR-BKK, EVA Air flies London-Bangkok??

Thu Nov 24, 2016 5:25 am

Anansaudiajet wrote:
Flights from Taiwan weren't allowed to overfly China. Eva Air TPE-CDG is an exception. Now CI is planning nonstop AMS, FCO and LHR

That was true in the past but not in recent years. the BR and CI stops in BKK to Europe are historical as well as market driven, they used to pick up lots of BKK-Europe traffic. Also some of the ASA with Euro nations require a stop or have to be non stop.
The upcoming non stop TPE- AMS/FCO/LHR flights are because of the A359 coming into the fleet. CI did TPE- LHR non stop with a A343 several years ago but dropped due to it being uneconomic after IIRC less than 2 years. They fly TPE-VIE/FRA non stop overflying southern China and have done so for several years. They cant overfly Xinjiang like other carriers (though they have a flight to Urumqi so go figure!!) but route south of the Himalayas and then via KMG and HKG on the east bound flights, on westbounds they frequently go north to Korea than Russian Far East and Siberia.
 
User avatar
LeCoqFrancais
Topic Author
Posts: 418
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 3:03 pm

Re: BR68, LHR-BKK, EVA Air flies London-Bangkok??

Thu Nov 24, 2016 2:25 pm

I know what a 5th Freedom right is, but I do not know what a 7th Freedom right is, could someone explain it to me?
Sébastien C. Tourillon
 
trex8
Posts: 5597
Joined: Sat Nov 02, 2002 9:04 am

Re: BR68, LHR-BKK, EVA Air flies London-Bangkok??

Thu Nov 24, 2016 3:41 pm

LeCoqFrancais wrote:
I know what a 5th Freedom right is, but I do not know what a 7th Freedom right is, could someone explain it to me?


The unofficial seventh freedom is a variation of the fifth freedom. It is the right to carry passengers or cargo between two foreign countries without any continuing service to one's own country.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedoms_of_the_air
 
User avatar
Rajahdhani
Posts: 612
Joined: Wed Sep 28, 2016 3:13 pm

Re: BR68, LHR-BKK, EVA Air flies London-Bangkok??

Thu Nov 24, 2016 5:11 pm

trex8 wrote:
LeCoqFrancais wrote:
I know what a 5th Freedom right is, but I do not know what a 7th Freedom right is, could someone explain it to me?


The unofficial seventh freedom is a variation of the fifth freedom. It is the right to carry passengers or cargo between two foreign countries without any continuing service to one's own country.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedoms_of_the_air



To add, the difference between the two rights is a matter of connections;

A 5th freedom right flight exampled would be AI's AMD-LHR-EWR (of note, is the country of origin - of both flight and registered carrier, match).

A 7th freedom right flight (as touched upon above) is exampled the current example of CX's 712 (BKK-SIN) as a standalone service, and not operated as HKG-BKK-SIN. (of note, is that the country of origin, do not match).

Ultimately, the right to operate beyond 5th freedoms (into 6th,7th,8th and 9th) is predicated upon the local jurisdictions (in this case Thailand, on a larger scale within the EU's ECAA) legalizing cabbotage, and accepting the terms of those surrenders. As was stated above, Thailand has benefited in increased tourism traffic, and healthy competition. The perceived opppurtunity cost, at that time - was diminished control of the aviation economy (and the growth of TH).
 
User avatar
LeCoqFrancais
Topic Author
Posts: 418
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 3:03 pm

Re: BR68, LHR-BKK, EVA Air flies London-Bangkok??

Thu Nov 24, 2016 6:07 pm

Ok, so a 7th freedom right fligth would be an Air Canada flight from JFK to LAX as an exemple. Correct?
Sébastien C. Tourillon
 
User avatar
adamblang
Posts: 1266
Joined: Sat Jul 19, 2008 5:47 pm

Re: BR68, LHR-BKK, EVA Air flies London-Bangkok??

Thu Nov 24, 2016 6:12 pm

No. That's 9th freedom.

trex8 provided this link, which lays it all out: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedoms_of_the_air
 
User avatar
SRQKEF
Posts: 1953
Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2011 7:10 pm

Re: BR68, LHR-BKK, EVA Air flies London-Bangkok??

Thu Nov 24, 2016 7:03 pm

LeCoqFrancais wrote:
Ok, so a 7th freedom right fligth would be an Air Canada flight from JFK to LAX as an exemple. Correct?


No, but if AC operated JFK-LHR as a standalone flight that would be 7th freedom
Nothing compares to taking off in an empty 757 with full thrust!
 
Viscount724
Posts: 19316
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

Re: BR68, LHR-BKK, EVA Air flies London-Bangkok??

Fri Nov 25, 2016 4:18 am

Rajahdhani wrote:
[

A 7th freedom right flight (as touched upon above) is exampled the current example of CX's 712 (BKK-SIN) as a standalone service, and not operated as HKG-BKK-SIN. (of note, is that the country of origin, do not match).



No, CX service BKK-SIN (CX713 not CX712 which is SIN-BKK) is most definitely 5th freedom. CX713 operates HKG-BKK-SIN and CX712 SIN-BKK-HKG.
 
User avatar
Rajahdhani
Posts: 612
Joined: Wed Sep 28, 2016 3:13 pm

Re: BR68, LHR-BKK, EVA Air flies London-Bangkok??

Fri Nov 25, 2016 5:02 pm

adamblang wrote:
No. That's 9th freedom.

trex8 provided this link, which lays it all out: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedoms_of_the_air


...and to add, here's a decent/short video;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=thqbjA2DC-E
 
User avatar
Rajahdhani
Posts: 612
Joined: Wed Sep 28, 2016 3:13 pm

Re: BR68, LHR-BKK, EVA Air flies London-Bangkok??

Fri Nov 25, 2016 5:11 pm

Viscount724 wrote:
Rajahdhani wrote:
[

A 7th freedom right flight (as touched upon above) is exampled the current example of CX's 712 (BKK-SIN) as a standalone service, and not operated as HKG-BKK-SIN. (of note, is that the country of origin, do not match).



No, CX service BKK-SIN (CX713 not CX712 which is SIN-BKK) is most definitely 5th freedom. CX713 operates HKG-BKK-SIN and CX712 SIN-BKK-HKG.


Fair enough - thanks for checking my fact.
My confusion was that I could purchase a BKK-SIN ticket, on CX, and never set foot in HKG. Based on the definition, and the clarification, I see who 7th freedoms would be so difficult to operate (as it cannot, essentially, connect back to the home nation/potential hub there).
 
Cunard
Posts: 2510
Joined: Fri Nov 11, 2016 6:45 pm

Re: BR68, LHR-BKK, EVA Air flies London-Bangkok??

Fri Nov 25, 2016 11:54 pm

EVA Air origionaly started flights from LGW to TPE via BKK in October 1989 with Boeing 767-300 twice weekly untill the flight moved to LHR in 1991 when the airport was opened to new airlines except those operating under Bermuda 2.
94 Countries, 327 Destinations Worldwide, 32 Airlines, 29 Aircraft Types, 182 Airports, 335 Flights.
 
bzcat
Posts: 328
Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 11:34 pm

Re: BR68, LHR-BKK, EVA Air flies London-Bangkok??

Mon Nov 28, 2016 10:51 pm

[email protected] wrote:
Presumably insufficient demand for LHR-TPE, even with certain sixth freedom options thereafter, while benefiting from fifth freedom traffic rights on LHR-BKK-LHR and of course full rights BKK-TPE-BKK.


There is sufficient demand. The issue is BR doesn't have the rights to operate LHR-TPE non-stop. CI holds the rights for non-stop flights between UK and Taiwan.

The bilateral air service agreement between UK and Taiwan is very restrictive so only 1 airline from each side is allowed to operate non-stop. The no-stop right was awarded to CI way back when overflying China was not possible so it was deemed to be not valuable traffic right as a result. BR took the 5th freedom option in order to start service ASAP.

Anansaudiajet wrote:
Flights from Taiwan weren't allowed to overfly China. Eva Air TPE-CDG is an exception. Now CI is planning nonstop AMS, FCO and LHR


There is no such restriction now and haven't been in over a decade. Flights from Taiwan can overfly China as long as the air space is open - e.g. no one can overfly certain parts of Western China or Tibet no matter which nationality. The only requirement is that the flight passes through an intermediate air traffic control sector between China and Taiwan - i.e. HKG control or OKA control. Because of the requirement for heading toward HKG or OKA first before turning towards China, BR and CI choose to not overfly China on some of the flights because it is expensive detour, and/or they wanted the 5th freedom business via BKK.

Basically, TPE-BKK-LHR overflies HKG anyway, where as TPE-LHR is required to fly near HKG before turning northwest towards China, and is subject to Chinese air space restrictions that applies to all civilian airliners, which means a long detour of zig zag through China before heading out towards Mongolia. It is not a clear cut case that flying non-stop result in the best economic outcome for CI or BR because of the detours required to approach China and within China.

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos